Regarding the Departmental Security Test Merge

[Outboarduniform]

3 hours ago, Garnascus said:

The idea that we can only focus on improving gameplay balance at the cost of RP is straight up wrong. Nobody bats an eye when we have nerfed antagonist abilities for being too powerful. Abilities such as vampire's dominate, wizard movement abilities and traitor revolver damage. Nobody voices criticism when we change the map to "buff" the crew either. Used to be in the past security's armory was separated from space by a single reinforced wall without a camera. Nowadays the armory has teleport protection, multiple wall layers and ID locked closets. None of these changes sacrificed "RP" in any meaningful way. They addressed problematic areas in which certain situations where dominated by one way to play that was deemed not great. 

We have a problem with security having a stranglehold on the round. We have a problem with them being able to shut down antagonists too easily. We have a problem with security that does NOT boil down to "Git good antags". 

Can you tell me where exactly this was said or even implied? We are going to great lengths in explaining we want to REDUCE security's power over the round NOT remove it. Antags replacing security in this position is probably not good either. We must strive for a better balance. 

 

How will this reworking fix balance? 

If anything it gimps Security so hard into medieval feudalism so long as there isn't a Code Green that it makes it impossible to coordinate in the most basic of ways while reducing the HoS to a gimp role,  and when it is a Code Blue or above, it reverts back to normal security play with more access. 

If anything this will lead to more command shitflinging which is something we ought to avoid to begin with. 

I also don't understand the reasoning behind removing security comms on Green. It will make depsec the most unenjoyable experience for depsec officers I can think of, and also makes Investigations jobs, HoS, and Warden, as about as enjoyable as sprinting with Mesothelioma. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Outboarduniform

[Zyrus]

On 28/03/2020 at 18:41, Skull132 said:

 

1. Departmental officers will lose security channel access on code green. While I do wholly understand the importance of communication, I do also understand that undermining this point is the most effective way to get at what we want to get at. Removing the departmental officers from security net will make them more reliant on their own departmental chain of command. The alternative to this one, thus far, has been to nerf access of the departmental officers to just departmental hallways. But I believe that to actually run counter to what we're trying to achieve.

While the rest of it I'm neutral about or supportive over... this is a terrible idea on so many levels I have to chime in.

I have numerous problems with this idea which have been addressed by others... but my number one problem with this idea is simple enough; This server is all about RP. Why would you literally take away one of the most important ways for departments to communicate with each other just to reinforce 'report to their department only'?

This isn't even remotely getting into all the problems around the logistics of forcing this in Dead Hour, when there's usually no Command to do code blue.

[Shadow7889]

As one of the ISD mains and a fan of dep sec, I cannot agree with most of the peoples complaints here. I loved how dep sec forced you to conform to a new department. It made you work with the crew. I made some really good bonds as well. I was forced to focus on my department instead of the station as a whole. And honestly, it was amazing. - oh theres a teleporting dude running around with a sword on code green. - " Hey engineers? Yeah get your heads down a bit. Some weird stuff is going on " it made you focus on protecting crew and less on GET THE FUCKING BAD GUY AAAA. Dep sec made me play a smarter officer. I think in time itll get rid of the valid hunters, the problem children of security, and focus up on people that play security to protect the crew and station like they should be. Also perfectly fine with sec comms removal on green. Sec officers can use PDAs or gen comms to talk to one another. Like the rest of the crew. Sensitive issues like hostiles can go to command staff PDAs who can verify it and move to code blue. From there ISD comms should be unlocked so the ISD can work on focusing on threats to the crew as a whole.  That'd be super cool. 

[Zyrus]

1 hour ago, Shadow7889 said:

As one of the ISD mains and a fan of dep sec, I cannot agree with most of the peoples complaints here. I loved how dep sec forced you to conform to a new department. It made you work with the crew. I made some really good bonds as well. I was forced to focus on my department instead of the station as a whole. And honestly, it was amazing. - oh theres a teleporting dude running around with a sword on code green. - " Hey engineers? Yeah get your heads down a bit. Some weird stuff is going on " it made you focus on protecting crew and less on GET THE FUCKING BAD GUY AAAA. Dep sec made me play a smarter officer. I think in time itll get rid of the valid hunters, the problem children of security, and focus up on people that play security to protect the crew and station like they should be. Also perfectly fine with sec comms removal on green. Sec officers can use PDAs or gen comms to talk to one another. Like the rest of the crew. Sensitive issues like hostiles can go to command staff PDAs who can verify it and move to code blue. From there ISD comms should be unlocked so the ISD can work on focusing on threats to the crew as a whole.  That'd be super cool. 

All this will do is make those who want to RP with other security grab radios. There is literally no benefit to this.

[IAmCrystalClear]

3 hours ago, Shadow7889 said:

Sec officers can use PDAs or gen comms to talk to one another. Like the rest of the crew.

There's talk of this being OOCly punishable?

[Itanimulli]

What if we just...buff antags? Or give them better tools?

 

Removing comms is not a good idea for reasons I should not have to get into. You guys are sacrificing rp for what you call balance, in a server where....rp is prioritized over such. Come on, man.

 

We have been nerfing things to improve rp, but now were nerfing rp for literally no reason.

Why even have security? This is just a designated member of a department with shooty bang bang privliges.

 

Aka "gank this guy to get a gun."

[Snakebittenn]

16 minutes ago, Itanimulli said:

What if we just...buff antags? Or give them better tools?

 

Removing comms is not a good idea for reasons I should not have to get into. You guys are sacrificing rp for what you call balance, in a server where....rp is prioritized over such. Come on, man.

 

We have been nerfing things to improve rp, but now were nerfing rp for literally no reason.

Why even have security? This is just a designated member of a department with shooty bang bang privliges.

 

Aka "gank this guy to get a gun."

None of this is very specific or explained. How are we nerfing RP?

[Itanimulli]

7 minutes ago, ParadoxSpace said:

None of this is very specific or explained. How are we nerfing RP?

Other people have covered this, but, the communication between sec players is rp. It's not like sec comms is filled with "get valid" all day. Likeminded people in a likeminded channel, much like what happens in the private channels of any other department when things have not utterly hit the fan.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Im glad to see my criticism of departmental feudalism being picked up because this really does come off like that. Severing security from one another AND relocating them to specific departments is very similar to typical set ups for Nations events, but even in that situation sec is its own fiefdom. Giving individual departments firepower and an ostensibly loyal armed goon with the RIGHT and EXPECTATION to enforce regulations you are giving individual command members powers of ordering arrests and security actions against the crew previously monopolized by the HoS. 

These are the wrong ways to tackle the power dynamics at play between sec and other departments and from command members to their departments. Having a legally armed goon at my disposal was one of my primary antag gimmicks as antag command. And this fufills that even better by immediately isolating the goon and having them entirely in my orbit. The only check on when i can go up to a crewman in my department i dont like and say

"Ill say to you what i say about all all my critics... SEIZE HIM!!!"

Are the officers themselves arguing with me about it and defying me, which I can say is refusing to execute an order, and then. . . . . Drama!

Reinforcing mechanically the habit we see of regular department mains forming a fiefdom should not be given extra ammo unless the intention is to encourage that form of high drama and bickering. Which would be valid but im very confident its not the intention of this series of changes.

I predict its going to be VERY exciting to watch the feuding and conflicts this creates while being VERY frustrating to deal with if youre outside the departmental clique but still a member of that department when it closes ranks, either as a depsec officer or a regular joe in it.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Marlon Phoenix

[Garnascus]

9 hours ago, IAmCrystalClear said:

There's talk of this being OOCly punishable?

No

3 hours ago, Itanimulli said:

What if we just...buff antags? Or give them better tools?

A lot of antags already have tools that make them very strong in 1v1 fights or even 1v2 - 1v3 fights. Wizards, ninjas and a vampires for example. It would probably be.... not good for balance if antags became better at dealing with security. 

3 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

I predict its going to be VERY exciting to watch the feuding and conflicts this creates while being VERY frustrating to deal with if youre outside the departmental clique

Yeah its possible. I reckon we would go back to the drawing board if it was that bad. 

[Outboarduniform]

At this point you might as well add in a dispatch system. 

I can guarantee you that every single security member will be camerahawking so that they can kick down the door with Code Blue and get to work. 

[Shadow7889]

12 hours ago, IAmCrystalClear said:

There's talk of this being OOCly punishable?

Find me a source. I highly doubt that. 

[Wigglesworth Jones]

Not necessarily confirmed, but still.

[Kintsugi]

This has been a pretty great April Fools joke so far. The amount of effort and buildup is really impressive. Bravo to everyone involved.

Edited April 1, 2020 by DanseMacabre

[Wigglesworth Jones]

Super hilarious, GG. You almost had me believing that this was a real thing.

[WickedCybs]

It seems like rapid code switching is going to be more popular now to hamper cordination for security. At least, during a recent round I played, for a time we were spammed by having the code raised and lowered by antags so they'd lose access to the sec comms, and there's little counterplay to that.

Edit: Apparently the code switching didn't matter at all, my bad. Perhaps others thought it did at first too.

Edited April 1, 2020 by WickedCybs

[Soultheif96]

I would like to say that there are some issues pretty obvious here:

1. Code Blue/Red/Yellow does not enable the security communications. If this is an April Fool's Joke, thanks for the laugh and so on, but soon after, I would like this fixed, otherwise, you will see an even steeper drop in security players.

2. Warden Office is quite hilarious for the April Fool's Joke, but in a serious manner, we need to expand it along with the brig for that it is pretty cramped as is, and the N2O tank is missing.

3. Medical Officer spawns on surface cryogenics, an oversight, and there is a chair in front of medical officer's office.

4. As for the layout, I understand the shrinking due to departmental security, but I would like it remapped to fit the privacy of the prisoners and the CSI room (You can see the autopsy room, not everyone wants to see that.)

Otherwise, I am fine with the concept of depsec.

[Outboarduniform]

Looks like we've been gnomed. 

[Spider]

thanks i hate it