Ion Rifle Adjustments

[Haveatya]

Bottom Line: The Ion Rifle is extremely potent towards anything that is mechanical. It can have a splash effect, it has a high rate of fire, it does immense damage. The weapon is "anti-fun" when deployed against IPCs and Stationbounds. There is no counter against it available to anyone but a handful of antags despite its lethality and availability. 

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I will begin this by saying that "Yes, I play IPCs extensively. My G2, Breacher G-031, is played extremely frequently". I say this because it surely means I hold some bias on the matter. G2s can sometimes take hits like nobody else and carry on their merry way. Sometimes only though. I've gotten in many gunfights where two or three rifle shots blow off my leg and I am effectively dead without having any real chance to do anything. On the inverse I've absorbed a magazine worth of 7.62 and still "win" the fight. Regarding lasers and brute weapons, IPCs frequently shrug off the damage that would severely harm organic species. At the same time, they can suffer crits and go down just like anyone else. Why do I say this? Synths are NOT immune to conventional weapons or intelligent use of combat mechanics.

Lets look at how the ion rifle behaves in game and how it effects the gameplay of synthetics. The Ion Rifle is a rapid fire, rechargeable weapon with a weapon that does not pass through walls. It deals damage to the entirety of the chassis of the thing it hits and it can depletes the charge of any energy weapons also on the target. How do you, then, effectively counter the Ion Rifle? Hide behind windows and shoot through with actual energy weapons OR be organic. So in summary, what does the Ion Rifle create? A rock-paper-scissor environment in a game that is built on flexibility, creativity, and even luck. In summary, The Ion Rifle is hyper focused and is an instant win or instant fail tool, inspiring uncreative and lackluster experiences.

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"You just want to buff your Security Officer for Validhunting" - No, I don't. People already watch IPC Sec with an eagle eye. I believe the ion rifle should be a credible threat to IPCs. IPCs are machines and the ion rifle is essentially an EMP projector. It makes sense to be the best weapon to counter them, however, name another weapon that can double tap in under a second and kill anyone in the game? Antimaterial rifles can gib limbs but are extremely rare and ammo intensive. Shotguns are close range and slow firing, etc...

"Then don't play a Sec IPC" - This, at its root, is a game about being something else than what you are and having some laughs. To disregard a very frequent Sci-Fi trope due to unfair mechanics is UNFAIR to the players that want to engage in that role.

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My suggestions

1. Localized damage. A shot to the chest with an ion rifle on kill maims most limbs on an IPC. Even surviving that one shot leaves you crippled for a half hour under the best care of a talented roboticist. Localized damage can let a Kill shot destroy an arm or a leg without immediately destroying everything connected to the IPC.

2. Increased Recharge. Today, in fact, I got into a gunfight with a merc. They pulled out the gun, wielded it, and double tapped me, killing me, in under 2 seconds from across the screen. I was down after one shot, unable to even react. A weapon so lethal does not need to be able to follow up shots so quickly. 

3. Reduced Range. Energy swords, armblades, cult blades, and all manner of melee weapons are exceedingly capable of inflicting critical damage on people. Reducing the range of the Ion Rifle to only a few squares would make the weapon much easier to counterplay against. There have been many times where someone steps from offscreen and instantly guns down a borg or IPC with an Ion, atleast reduced range gives a chance for synths to avoid their destruction.

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The Flash and Taser Comparison

The Flash used to be an immediate knockdown stun. It was countered by sunglasses and many visors, an easily acquired item for some roles but difficult for others. Most antags could get them easily and crew could be given them by security. What happened? The flash was considered unfun and too easily able to kneecap an antag for the remainder of the game. To differentiate however, the flash is much more commonly available. 

The taser on Aurora is not like most other stations. MRP and LRP servers with tasers frequently have them be one hit stunlocks. An individual can get hit once and dropped long enough to be gunned down by an antag or tied and stripped. Why is this not on our HRP server when literal modern tasers perform much closer to the L/MRP ones? Counterplay. Landing 5 shots with the taser is not easy, and even then it cant still not be enough to KO a target. Combat on Aurora is methodical and tactical, the ability to TKO someone in one shot is heavily frowned upon and as such the taser is drastically unrealistic and weak compared to many other servers and reality.

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The Syringe Gun and Hypospray Comparison

Tranq / Chloral Hydrate Darts are the closest synonym to an ion bolt. If you get hit by, you will be knocked unconcious for a least a few seconds with little chance to fight it. It is a dangerous tool. The tranq rifle is restricted to the HoS and Chloral Hydrate can only be created by only a handful of individuals. I'd say Chloral Hydrate / Tranq Darts are MORE restricted than the ion rifle that is easily accessible by anyone with access at the drop of the hat. Darts, despite their restricted availability, also have weaknesses. Delayed effect and inability to pierce armor makes the tranq dart extremely niche in its deployment yet its potency.

Hypospray Chloral Hydrate was a frequent tool for eliminating someone quickly. Many CMOs would carry it around. Instant deployment of 15cc of CH absolutely ruined a person's chance to do anything and put them at the mercy of the hypospray user. Hypospray, as many know, has been nerfed since. This abuse of them being cited in the rationale.

"So what?" - Immediate incapacitation of organics is extremely limited in scope and availability, it also has potential counterplay. Ion rifles, on the other hand, have only one counterplay despite their availability: Don't be in line of sight.

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Anyways, thank you for coming to my TED Talk on the state of the Ion Rifle and why I believe it should be adjusted. I will leave you with my feed from last round, it resulted in my death and appeared within 1 second.

[Arrow768]

Well, as I mentioned a few times on discord, I am not against reworking how EMPs / Ions work.
However they still need to have a substantial impact on IPCs.

The gist that was that (imho) ipcs should have some sort of "malfunction" value that increases with exposure to EMPs and slowly decreases over time.
Depending on the value of the "malfunction" variable, the following could happen:

• grayscale vision
• slowdown
• dropping things
• inability to move
• damage
• ...

[TravistyRavage]

Quote

name another weapon that can double tap in under a second and kill anyone in the game?

Lazer Rifle hit right will take a normal person down in 2-3 hits with massive damage and is a bitch for Medbay.

-1

IPC Security are literal memes right now, we need to keep things as balanced as possible, and EMP or Ion Rifles are the main if not only weapons towards heavy/tanky machinery.
 

[Peppermint]

4 minutes ago, TravistyRavage said:

Lazer Rifle hit right will take a normal person down in 2-3 hits with massive damage and is a bitch for Medbay.

-1

IPC Security are literal memes right now, we need to keep things as balanced as possible, and EMP or Ion Rifles are the main if not only weapons towards heavy/tanky machinery.
 

IPCs take increased laser damage, so I'm not sure how your point doesn't actually reinforce the OPs. Likewise a single ion shot will end your round as an IPC. The strengths come from better melee/ballistic resistance, and IPCs otherwise suffer from the laser issues to a far greater degree - and I'd argue it's easier for medical to fix someone up compared to the convoluted mess of robotics.

 

My own thoughts are that ion rifles are fine as you can play around them, though I think a slight nerf to the number of shots you have per charge would be nice - at least on lethal mode. That or maybe removal the lethal mode all together, given the stun version is enough? Not sure though.

 

 Imo the main problem is EMPs due to the utterly ridiculous radius they have, and how you can be hit by them even when they're off your screen. Dealing with a wiz with the EMP spell is probs my least loved sec experience, given a single button will end your round.

[Haveatya]

18 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

Well, as I mentioned a few times on discord, I am not against reworking how EMPs / Ions work.
However they still need to have a substantial impact on IPCs.

The gist that was that (imho) ipcs should have some sort of "malfunction" value that increases with exposure to EMPs and slowly decreases over time.
Depending on the value of the "malfunction" variable, the following could happen:

• grayscale vision
• slowdown
• dropping things
• inability to move
• damage
• ...

These seem interesting, as an extremely novice coder, this looks like it'd be much complicated than I would hope. However, thank you for your input!

2 hours ago, TravistyRavage said:

Lazer Rifle hit right will take a normal person down in 2-3 hits with massive damage and is a bitch for Medbay.

-1

IPC Security are literal memes right now, we need to keep things as balanced as possible, and EMP or Ion Rifles are the main if not only weapons towards heavy/tanky machinery.
 

I don't think I've seen any energy weapon 3 shot anyone. Even if it did, the damage would be localized to burn, three chems later and burn patches (2 minutes) fixes you up. This may just be my experience however. In regards to energy crits, yes they CAN occur but that is a rare spike of probability. Ion weapons ALWAYS end an IPC's round in 2/3 hits. Thank you for your input!
 

 

2 hours ago, Lemei said:

IPCs take increased laser damage, so I'm not sure how your point doesn't actually reinforce the OPs. Likewise a single ion shot will end your round as an IPC. The strengths come from better melee/ballistic resistance, and IPCs otherwise suffer from the laser issues to a far greater degree - and I'd argue it's easier for medical to fix someone up compared to the convoluted mess of robotics.

 

My own thoughts are that ion rifles are fine as you can play around them, though I think a slight nerf to the number of shots you have per charge would be nice - at least on lethal mode. That or maybe removal the lethal mode all together, given the stun version is enough? Not sure though.

 

 Imo the main problem is EMPs due to the utterly ridiculous radius they have, and how you can be hit by them even when they're off your screen. Dealing with a wiz with the EMP spell is probs my least loved sec experience, given a single button will end your round.

Thank you for input, we agree on many points!

[Hepatica]

+1. Needs to be nerfed, not going to go into an entire essay on why, as everything Haveatya has said I agree with. There are plenty of counters to IPCs already. I've literally seen G2s get ONE TAPPED by a laser rifle to the leg and lose the leg entirely. One shot. Lasers are strong enough vs IPCs right now to make an Ion nerf perfectly acceptable.

[Kintsugi]

While I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your plight - I don't feel at all comfortable nerfing ion rifles while IPCs remain as durable as they are now. IPCurity faces a lot of scrutiny for a reason: IPCurity is powerful. I remember a round where some Solarian marines came aboard the station, and a lone IPC managed to dunk on much of the team. If the ion rifle is to be nerfed (which it should be), I think IPCs need to be... Crunchier, as squishy isn't quite the term to use. Conventional weapons need to be able to get kills, especially ballistic weapons - which are the weapons antagonists most frequently have access to. Remember: Laser rifles are certainly effective, but how many laser rifles are available to antagonists? An EMP nerf hurts antagonists more than it does sec, and antags have the odds stacked up against them already.

Edited May 16, 2020 by DanseMacabre

[Haveatya]

4 hours ago, Hepatica said:

+1. Needs to be nerfed, not going to go into an entire essay on why, as everything Haveatya has said I agree with. There are plenty of counters to IPCs already. I've literally seen G2s get ONE TAPPED by a laser rifle to the leg and lose the leg entirely. One shot. Lasers are strong enough vs IPCs right now to make an Ion nerf perfectly acceptable.

Thank you for the comment and support.

 

 

1 hour ago, DanseMacabre said:

While I'm not entirely unsympathetic to your plight - I don't feel at all comfortable nerfing ion rifles while IPCs remain as durable as they are now. IPCurity faces a lot of scrutiny for a reason: IPCurity is powerful. I remember a round where some Solarian marines came aboard the station, and a lone IPC managed to dunk on much of the team. If the ion rifle is to be nerfed (which it should be), I think IPCs need to be... Crunchier, as squishy isn't quite the term to use. Conventional weapons need to be able to get kills, especially ballistic weapons - which are the weapons antagonists most frequently have access to. Remember: Laser rifles are certainly effective, but how many laser rifles are available to antagonists? An EMP nerf hurts antagonists more than it does sec, and antags have the odds stacked up against them already.

I believe energy weapons should be available to antags, yes. emp weapons are more prevalent than energy weapons to antags in my experience. In fact EMP grenades can be acquired by traitors straight up. The IPCs can either soak 20 shots and still work or be out of commission from 1 crit. It's very randomized, which is not ideal to me but is the case. Adding the energy pistol or carbine to the uplink should be easy enough but does come with other problems. However, the use of an ion rifle in any form that has been suggested would give an antag time to escape, cuff, or even just straight up kill an IPC. This limits the suffering of the lack of easily acquired energy weapons.

[Carver]

I would never support a nerf unless IPCs were made vulnerable to HALLOSS. It can safely be said that they're the mechanically strongest 'species' on the roster, when they demand lethal response or more often the singular ion rifle.

If you're an antagonist with telecrystal access, invest in the 'IPC surge prevention module' or (and this applies to several without telecrystal access) use your choice of ion/EMP to disable the enemies' energy weaponry in a beautiful irony. If you're a non-antagonist, accept that you have a mechanical weakness in exchange for being one of the most anti-antagonist 'species' on the station.

[Haveatya]

46 minutes ago, Carver said:

I would never support a nerf unless IPCs were made vulnerable to HALLOSS. It can safely be said that they're the mechanically strongest 'species' on the roster, when they demand lethal response or more often the singular ion rifle.

If you're an antagonist with telecrystal access, invest in the 'IPC surge prevention module' or (and this applies to several without telecrystal access) use your choice of ion/EMP to disable the enemies' energy weaponry in a beautiful irony. If you're a non-antagonist, accept that you have a mechanical weakness in exchange for being one of the most anti-antagonist 'species' on the station.

As expressed in the post, the ion rifle should remain a counter. That is not the concern. However, the nature of how it counters IPCs is undesirable from a gameplay standpoint. I agree that things like stun batons and tasers should have an effect on IPCs for the sake of gameplay, that does not mean that IPCs one easy counter is an instant kill, hyper accurate, long range, AOE, recharging, rapid fire, rifle until alternatives are in place. Thank you for the reply.

[Carver]

6 minutes ago, Haveatya said:

As expressed in the post, the ion rifle should remain a counter. That is not the concern. However, the nature of how it counters IPCs is undesirable from a gameplay standpoint. I agree that things like stun batons and tasers should have an effect on IPCs for the sake of gameplay, that does not mean that IPCs one easy counter is an instant kill, hyper accurate, long range, AOE, recharging, rapid fire, rifle until alternatives are in place. Thank you for the reply.

I understand it's lethal. It's also a singular, limited and counterable weapon if you're an antagonist - and a valid trade-off for your slipperiness as a non-antagonist.

I should also note that 'kill' does not apply for IPCs. They are not people and can be rather easily repaired.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Carver

[Haveatya]

1 minute ago, Carver said:

I understand it's lethal. It's also a singular, limited and counterable weapon if you're an antagonist - and a valid trade-off for your slipperiness as a non-antagonist.

I should also note that 'kill' does not apply for IPCs. They are not people and can be rather easily repaired.

I will not continue to debate as we will end up in circles on the topic. An Ion Rifle Kill shot to an IPC causes enough damage to deal damage to every location on an IPC and its internals. A single shot from most weapons does nothing permanent and can be healed by a bandage or ointment. I find your statement incorrect. Thank you for commenting.

[Carver]

Just now, Haveatya said:

I will not continue to debate as we will end up in circles on the topic. An Ion Rifle Kill shot to an IPC causes enough damage to deal damage to every location on an IPC and its internals. A single shot from most weapons does nothing permanent and can be healed by a bandage or ointment. I find your statement incorrect. Thank you for commenting.

Ballistics, internal bleeding and organ damage say hi.

[Haveatya]

12 minutes ago, Carver said:

Ballistics, internal bleeding and organ damage say hi.

Critical hits and random chance effects do not occur everytime, the same effects can happen to IPCs. Many people have seen my G2 get its leg shot out in 1 or 2 laser shots. Random chance is random and not certain. A laser could deal arterial damage, could just burn you, could damage an organ. It's random. Again, thank you for your post.

[Scheveningen]

38 minutes ago, Haveatya said:

Critical hits and random chance effects do not occur everytime, the same effects can happen to IPCs.

IPCs cannot internally bleed and getting hit with two 20 damage bullets in the same limb at full damage is a guaranteed occurrence of internal bleeding. While the meta is "whoever stuns first wins", IPCs cannot suffer from damage-over-time effects caused by ballistic or brute damage, they can only die through bursts of said damage or being left out in a vacuum/plasma fire. 

[Haveatya]

14 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

IPCs cannot internally bleed and getting hit with two 20 damage bullets in the same limb at full damage is a guaranteed occurrence of internal bleeding. While the meta is "whoever stuns first wins", IPCs cannot suffer from damage-over-time effects caused by ballistic or brute damage, they can only die through bursts of said damage or being left out in a vacuum/plasma fire. 

This rationale is why the ion rifle should be a stunning and disabling weapon, right now its trivial for mercs and smart traitors to kill and IPC in two seconds with little chance for counterplay. 

If the ion rifle was to, for example, eliminate the charge of a battery or literally cause a stun, you'd have the "stun to win" system back in play. IPCs could be knocked out for 5 seconds for example, if they are alone you have 5 seconds to cuff and beat or just plain smack with any weapon. On the flipside, this would permit allies to pull them back to safety. In this case the Ion Rifle is still a counter but is no longer an instant win.

I, in no way, want the ion rifle removed or flatly weakened just so I can valid more. I want a dynamic setup where a smart player can survive and ion rifle just like smart organics can survive AM rifles, SMGs, or lasers. Right now that is not possible.

Ion rifles exist as an instant kill hard counter in a place where that type of thing is nerfed or heavily limited and counterable.

Thank you for your comment.

[Scheveningen]

IPCs do not have direct counterplay without the existence of EMPs.

[Snakebittenn]

Lasers are a good enough counterplay.

note that i am pointblanking the head with a laser rifle
6 s hots to kill a naked shell
10 to kill a shell with a regular sec helmet
will take more than one laser rifle to kill an ablative'd shell. it took ~144 damage, takes 200 to kill. could probably finish off with a full smattering from your pistol or a good harmbaton session.

6 shots to kill a naked baseline
11 shots to kill a baseline with a regular sec helmet
same for shells with ablatives

7 shots to kill a naked G2
~12 to kill one with a regular sec helmet
i will assume the same for the previous two with ablatives

6 shots to kill a naked zeng-hu
about 10 to kill with a regular sec helmet but it bugged here
assume the same for ablatives
it took a piddly 3 shots of an ion rifle to kill a naked shell
their foot exploded off on the second shot and likely they wouldn't have been able to do literally anything

3 shots for a G2

some things to consider:
this was only one laser rifle. security has more than one laser weapon available to them, especially more than one laser rifle.
i did not make any moves to disable them, such as shooting their legs (which does a number on their ability to stand and perform basic functions)
the only people in this game that get ablative armor is security, and they only have two suits worth.
it was only me firing at them.
there are few ways to attain nanopaste.

[Haveatya]

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

IPCs do not have direct counterplay without the existence of EMPs.

I repeat AGAIN that my request for changes is not the removal of EMPs or the Ion Rifle. It merely for a less uninteresting counter that offer little chance of survival or counterplay. There are alternatives to countering outside of blatantly killing them from across the screen with no chance of survival.

Flashbangs play a much more important role in combat than most weapons. Stuns are much more interesting than overwhelming damage, teamwork or smart strategy can counter the power of flashbang grenades but failure to account for them can easily result in capture or death. The ion rifle and EMP grenades replicating this sort of gameplay would be much more fair and balanced than Ion Rifle go pew, even if the stun was increased to well in excess of 2 or 3 seconds and upwards of 4 or 5. Thank you for your post.

1 hour ago, ParadoxSpace said:

Lasers are a good enough counterplay.

note that i am pointblanking the head with a laser rifle
6 s hots to kill a naked shell
10 to kill a shell with a regular sec helmet
will take more than one laser rifle to kill an ablative'd shell. it took ~144 damage, takes 200 to kill. could probably finish off with a full smattering from your pistol or a good harmbaton session.

6 shots to kill a naked baseline
11 shots to kill a baseline with a regular sec helmet
same for shells with ablatives

7 shots to kill a naked G2
~12 to kill one with a regular sec helmet
i will assume the same for the previous two with ablatives

6 shots to kill a naked zeng-hu
about 10 to kill with a regular sec helmet but it bugged here
assume the same for ablatives
it took a piddly 3 shots of an ion rifle to kill a naked shell
their foot exploded off on the second shot and likely they wouldn't have been able to do literally anything

3 shots for a G2

some things to consider:
this was only one laser rifle. security has more than one laser weapon available to them, especially more than one laser rifle.
i did not make any moves to disable them, such as shooting their legs (which does a number on their ability to stand and perform basic functions)
the only people in this game that get ablative armor is security, and they only have two suits worth.
it was only me firing at them.
there are few ways to attain nanopaste.

Interesting post, thank you.

[TheDilShawn]

Get an anti materiel rifle appearing often (and readly available in the armoury), exploding on impact with a splash effect that would stun everyone in the room while having a better fire rate and the ability to recharge ammo and still permanently removing lives in 3 shots and you'd get the equivelent of what an Ion is for IPCs.

Regardless of what you think about how durable (security) IPCs are, this is not balance. It is a problem. If the Ion truly balanced the IPCs you'd not see people complaining as they still are in this very thread.

Some strategies do not work on certain species and you will have to accept that and adapt. IPCs are generaly weak to burns, G2s being the less affected by burns but it still affects them enough. Sometimes you dont have the means to win, and that is okay. What is not okay is to have some sort of equivelent to an anti materiel rifle on steroids that removes something's life in three clicks and make it available enough for it to be used everyday and almost always the response to IPCs because how trivial it makes them with no skill or effort. 

[Scheveningen]

>no chance of survival
>only species that can be revived post-brainmed

I too get upset when I get sniped from across the map in a shooter game because I was standing still and not considering whether or not my character model was sitting in the crosshairs of someone else. Well no, that's a bit of a fib, because I know exactly what the cost is of playing a video game and standing still expecting not to be owned, and I don't get particularly upset anymore when someone goons me in a video game.

I likewise recognize how fruitless it is to complain about a game mechanic that is meant to be strong at a specific task, in the case of a sniper rifle it's meant to excel at long-range engagements and reward you with an instant kill if you manage to get a headshot which is a very hard entity to hit if its moving, and medium difficulty to hit if it is not moving.

Conversely, I don't see the point of complaining about the ion rifle/EMPs being effective against synthetics and IPCs. That is their function. You know what also oneshots in this game against organics? A shotgun loaded with buckshot will likely instant crit anyone at point blank-to-close range if they do not have any notable armor, if not instantly kill them in a single shot.

There should be consequence to playing IPCurity after all since a majority of threats human sec officers face in their line of work literally do not exist when applied to the contextual circumstances of IPCurity. They don't breathe, they don't feel pain, G2s have ridiculous grab stats and damage reduction. I do not like the thought of being close range to a G2. Given the opportunity they'd just as well attempt to quickly pacify me ASAP given the chance. Since people in this thread greatly underestimate how quickly various lethal methods can neutralize organic threats, let me give some excellent examples of weapons with absurdly high damage output that people just sleep on.

.45 caliber guns, either the pistol or submachinegun. When applied to the arms or hands they easily cripple the combat capability of anyone without necessarily killing them.
Shotguns do what .45s do even better by massive bursts of damage that liably end fights in an instant. Slugs are really not as good anymore except against absurd amounts of armor, buckshot's generally more cost effective.
Laser rifles perform excellently as both assault weapons and personal defense weapons.
Carbines are flexible for dealing lethal and non-lethal damage for whatever the situation mandates, but they don't have as good staying power as the above weapons do.
The traitor revolver is loud but neutralizes people quite fast. I prefer to declaw my opponents rather than outright killing them, but aim for the head if you really want to ruin someone's day.
Baseball bats are absurdly overpowered, like Jesus Christ they're ridiculous. The other improvised weapons like plasteel butterfly knives and such are also absolutely insane at dealing damage.
And let's not sleep on how versatile and unexpected the security maglite can be in bashing a dude's face in.

And then there's exactly one ion rifle on the station-side which incidentally can ruin one IPC's day in particular. I think it's very unfortunate to have your round shut down when your preferred IPC subspecies is incredibly resistant to everything but the ion rifle but I'm really not empathizing.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Scheveningen

[TheDilShawn]

Yeah shotguns can one hit kill... if youre really really close.. and the target doesnt have much armor... and rng is in your side. Meanwhile the ion just effortlessly ends IPCs. Im not up for their removal but atleast balance out the ion to make it fair for IPCs instead of just an instant win. If you note, you dont see me complain about emp grenades, just the rifle. 

[Boggle08]

Things are the way they are because IPC's dab on everyone with how their health works. They don't feel pain, and when they get hurt, they don't get worse unless you drag them or they have shrapnel. A lot of people die in the medbay because of how brainmed kills you through the brain, blood, oxyloss, or necrosis. If you get trashed as an IPC, you can just wait somewhere until a roboticist or someone with a massive satchel of nanopaste can fix you up. It's like wearing a stasis bag, all the time.

I've read the numbers and seen the arguments for why lasers are suitable enough for IPC counterplay, but that ignores the logistics backing up the IPC when they are in security. IPCurity has access to a bigass armory: They can load up on ablatives to counteract laser issues, or stack on other body armors to double up on the resistances they possess. In ideal circumstances, they have a department that can meet or outnumber most antags, the rest of the crew to support them, and a robotics bay that sees very little antag activity(compared to medical). In a vacuum, where we're banging numbers into numbers, lasers are an suitable counter to IPC's. When you take into account the amount of logistical support backing the ISD, and the fact that the robot man will be running around trying not to get shot, and that he has a team to protect and recover him, they become stronger.

The Ion is horrible design, and is everything I think we've been trying to move away from. It kills in three hits, irregardless of armor, distance, or IPC subtype. Its first firing mode is a non-negotiable stun that knocks you on your ass, while the kill mode absolutely cucks you, dealing heavy damage indiscriminately throughout the body and slamming you to the ground for a long stun that guarantees the next two follow up shots will make you into dead metal Pinocchio. It has the ammunition economy of a fucking laser carbine, and so worrying about running out of shoot juice isn't a problem.

We permit this atrocious thing because 1) it turns the ISD's fancy laser rifles into paperweights and 2) IPCurity(no really). It fucking sucks getting Ion'd, believe me, I've been there, but it's the unhappy and necessary solution to a playable race that completely spites the health/pain system we have balanced our races and combat around. I've heard talk of reworking their health with organs and coolant and shit, I think there is even a thread up somewhere in projects, but I don't think any change will happen till then. For the current order of things, maybe increasing the amount of shots it takes to kill an IPC or reducing/removing the stun on kill mode will make it less frustrating to play against.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Boggle08

[Haveatya]

14 hours ago, TheDilShawn said:

Get an anti materiel rifle appearing often (and readly available in the armoury), exploding on impact with a splash effect that would stun everyone in the room while having a better fire rate and the ability to recharge ammo and still permanently removing lives in 3 shots and you'd get the equivelent of what an Ion is for IPCs.

Regardless of what you think about how durable (security) IPCs are, this is not balance. It is a problem. If the Ion truly balanced the IPCs you'd not see people complaining as they still are in this very thread.

Some strategies do not work on certain species and you will have to accept that and adapt. IPCs are generaly weak to burns, G2s being the less affected by burns but it still affects them enough. Sometimes you dont have the means to win, and that is okay. What is not okay is to have some sort of equivelent to an anti materiel rifle on steroids that removes something's life in three clicks and make it available enough for it to be used everyday and almost always the response to IPCs because how trivial it makes them with no skill or effort. 

Thank you for your post and thoughts.

11 hours ago, TheDilShawn said:

Yeah shotguns can one hit kill... if youre really really close.. and the target doesnt have much armor... and rng is in your side. Meanwhile the ion just effortlessly ends IPCs. Im not up for their removal but atleast balance out the ion to make it fair for IPCs instead of just an instant win. If you note, you dont see me complain about emp grenades, just the rifle. 

Yea this is specifically an Ion Rifle adjustment, Cult EMPs and grenades dont bother me at all really. Thank you for your post.

9 hours ago, Boggle08 said:

Things are the way they are because IPC's dab on everyone with how their health works. They don't feel pain, and when they get hurt, they don't get worse unless you drag them or they have shrapnel. A lot of people die in the medbay because of how brainmed kills you through the brain, blood, oxyloss, or necrosis. If you get trashed as an IPC, you can just wait somewhere until a roboticist or someone with a massive satchel of nanopaste can fix you up. It's like wearing a stasis bag, all the time.

I've read the numbers and seen the arguments for why lasers are suitable enough for IPC counterplay, but that ignores the logistics backing up the IPC when they are in security. IPCurity has access to a bigass armory: They can load up on ablatives to counteract laser issues, or stack on other body armors to double up on the resistances they possess. In ideal circumstances, they have a department that can meet or outnumber most antags, the rest of the crew to support them, and a robotics bay that sees very little antag activity(compared to medical). In a vacuum, where we're banging numbers into numbers, lasers are an suitable counter to IPC's. When you take into account the amount of logistical support backing the ISD, and the fact that the robot man will be running around trying not to get shot, and that he has a team to protect and recover him, they become stronger.

The Ion is horrible design, and is everything I think we've been trying to move away from. It kills in three hits, irregardless of armor, distance, or IPC subtype. Its first firing mode is a non-negotiable stun that knocks you on your ass, while the kill mode absolutely cucks you, dealing heavy damage indiscriminately throughout the body and slamming you to the ground for a long stun that guarantees the next two follow up shots will make you into dead metal Pinocchio. It has the ammunition economy of a fucking laser carbine, and so worrying about running out of shoot juice isn't a problem.

We permit this atrocious thing because 1) it turns the ISD's fancy laser rifles into paperweights and 2) IPCurity(no really). It fucking sucks getting Ion'd, believe me, I've been there, but it's the unhappy and necessary solution to a playable race that completely spites the health/pain system we have balanced our races and combat around. I've heard talk of reworking their health with organs and coolant and shit, I think there is even a thread up somewhere in projects, but I don't think any change will happen till then. For the current order of things, maybe increasing the amount of shots it takes to kill an IPC or reducing/removing the stun on kill mode will make it less frustrating to play against.

Thank you for your post, went agree on many accounts.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Haveatya

[Carver]

20 hours ago, TheDilShawn said:

Get an anti materiel rifle appearing often (and readly available in the armoury), exploding on impact with a splash effect that would stun everyone in the room while having a better fire rate and the ability to recharge ammo and still permanently removing lives in 3 shots and you'd get the equivelent of what an Ion is for IPCs.

Regardless of what you think about how durable (security) IPCs are, this is not balance. It is a problem. If the Ion truly balanced the IPCs you'd not see people complaining as they still are in this very thread.

Some strategies do not work on certain species and you will have to accept that and adapt. IPCs are generaly weak to burns, G2s being the less affected by burns but it still affects them enough. Sometimes you dont have the means to win, and that is okay. What is not okay is to have some sort of equivelent to an anti materiel rifle on steroids that removes something's life in three clicks and make it available enough for it to be used everyday and almost always the response to IPCs because how trivial it makes them with no skill or effort. 

Permanence does not apply to synthetics, unlike the other species which are wholly unrevivable.

I have noted an item earlier in this thread which is repeatedly forgotten, 

If you are a traitor (or anyone with telecrystal access), one of the few roles which has 0 back-up (contrasted with station roles) then you should be using this like you'd be wearing armour if you were concerned about lasers or ballistics.

I will now list alternate methods of disabling Ions or their users for non-uplink roles - particularly relevant to specific G2 players whom desire to be nigh-unkillable.

• Wizards: Magic Missile - A staple, especially assuming you're capable of basic dodging (i.e.: every model but G2) you will force your opponent to run the fuck away or get floored.
• Chemists/Scientists: EMP mixes of your own - Ions are energy weapons, easily capable of being drained - and unlike the Wizard's Destroy Technology spell, this method can be used without risk to yourself.
• The Forgotten Methodry: Disable the Hand - Curiously, shooting an Ion Rifle wielder in their hand with a suitably non-terrible ballistic firearm will disable them as easily as their rifle disables you.
• Space Fighting - NBT-only: Jetpacks - No matter how slow you are, you're near-impossible to hit if you're in space with a jetpack where racial move speed doesn't apply. NBT-only because the asteroid map shuts this one down on all but the cooling z-level, but still worth remembering if one decides to revive this complaint down the line.
• The Anti-Valid Salad: Avoidance - If you spot an enemy wielding EMP weaponry and don't believe you're capable of fighting them, then don't. Not every fight is winnable.
• Shawshank Redemption: Escaping Prison - Surrender is a valid option, and for an antagonist you have numerous methods (Implants or having a partner to help) to allow you to prepare a prison escape with ease.
• The Group Antagonist: Healer Positioning - Imagine you're a party in an MMO when you're fighting as a group. You, the vulnerable member, should avoid drawing the aggro and let the tank (organics) soak up the Ion/EMP. Stay in back, stay safe. This is the standard method of any remotely competent crew IPC, as well.

Lasers are a non-factor easily avoided by donning armour. Ions are a fair response to a 'species' that is revivable, trivially repaired and wholly immune to standard disabling methods (HALLOSS) whilst being notably tanky (G2s in armour being near-immortal against every single thing but Ion/EMP, which leads me to be curious of your intent).

Play smart, instead of asking for a nerf to one of your singular racial weaknesses.