2 dismissals Relax the requirements for species whitelist.

[Lordnesh]

 

To clarify my point, I don't have issue with the rules as they are stated. What I take issue with is their execution.

I have created two applications for an IPC whitelist, and both have been declined. The first I wsa willing to accept, because it was pretty bare bones. However, I have serious reservations about the second one.

 

The first bare bones one: 

 

 

The second one with much more depth: 

 

 

In my first app I responded to the questions posed, but received NO response, just a flat denial. Which I took quite a bit of issue with. I felt like I was just being dismissed out of hand. However, the second one I responded to, again, only to find out that it didn't really matter after all, BECAUSE THEY HAD ALREADY MADE THEIR DECISION before seeing my replies. From what I'm able to gather, I was denied, not based off of the stated rules, but because I wasn't able to satisfy some undisclosed requirements. I was declined because my responses (which were NOT addressed) did not satisfy them, I did not pimp my app in OOC and get people to upvote it (which isn't a requirement according to the rules), and worst of all because I'm NEW. I am having a hard time keeping my cool, because this has been an extremely distressing experience. I don't understand why I have to write an ESSAY to satisfy the race's gatekeepers, just to roleplay as a robot. Especially considering some of the other IPCs I've seen with lazy names (in my personal opinion).

 

I think the requirements for species needs to be addressed. There either needs to be more clarity on what is needed, replace the current staff in charge of the whitelists, or the restrictions need to be relaxed. In it's current state, specifically from my perspective as a new player, applying for a species whitelist is simply more trouble than it's worth. Which is sad, because I really wanted to explore the different species available. However, I don't want to do so, if I have to write what is essentially a research paper. This is a game, not a college writing course. As it stands, I have no interest in reapplying. Not when my application gets denied without my responses being addressed, and for reasons that don't align with the rules as they're stated.

[KingOfThePing]

Man, when i first applied for a whitelist I got denied, too and I was super pissed about. I wrote a /very/ long essay about how I felt mistreated and in hindsight I feel like an absolute idiot about it. Shout out to my homie @CakeIsOssim. 

 

What you have to try to understand is, that the requirements or let's say the expectations for whitelist apps is relatively high because the people in charge put the faith in you that you dont fuck it up, to put it bluntly. A HRP environment just has certain expectations of you. Because if you do, they get blamed, too, not just you. So they naturally want to avoid that. I agree, that @niennab has a strict ruling (personal opinion here) but that's nothing bad. She gives constructive criticism and really cares about the apps that are posted. Dont be angry about it, see it as a challenge and maybe ask her in DMs or on Discord on how to improve and what is important to her. I would be surprised if she wouldn't give you more input in private. 

 

Tl;dr I know it can feel "unfair" that your app gets denied but the people in charge have nothing malicious in mind when they do, quite the contrary 

Edited August 17, 2020 by KingOfThePing
Clarification, grammar

[Lordnesh]

I understand why the whitelist is a thing. I don't have a problem with the whitelist itself. I have a problem with how it's implemented. I was asked clarifying questions, but my answers were ignored, or irrelevant. Part of the determining factor, according to them, was because I didn't pester anyone to visit my app. The other, more galling reason was simply because I'm new. If they had bothered to take the time to ask me questions, I could have told them that I've been playing heavily and consistently for the past several weeks. My behavior has been impeccable, aside from one recent slap on the wrist during one of my rare times as antag.

 

The problem, as it appears to me, is that there seem to be additional requirements to getting approved. Requirements that are not listed, and not explained. I was not informed about what was wrong with my app, not in a very detailed manner, just that it wasn't good enough. While I would never go so far as to say my app was perfect, but I did put in a lot of effort into writing it, all while operating outside of my comfort zone. Additionally, some of the questions pertained to IC aspects, and not the backstory itself. Which, I feel, should be something people should have to discover through roleplay, and not just hand fed though a text blurb.

 

Please read my second app. I wasn't given any constructive criticism. Just things along the lines of "some things can be improved". That's not constructive criticism. Like I said in the original post. Both times I did not feel I was given adequate attention, but simply dismissed out of hand. My first app they even bother to reply to the answers I gave. The second app they as much as admitted they'd already made up their mind before they even asked me anything. How is this fair?

Edited August 17, 2020 by Lordnesh

[MattAtlas]

1 hour ago, Lordnesh said:

I was not informed about what was wrong with my app, not in a very detailed manner, just that it wasn't good enough.

are you complaining that your application was denied because it wasn't good enough? because if you read over what you said, you explain what went wrong more than once, there's no "undisclosed requirement" here, your app was just not up to par

[Haydizzle]

Alright, to break this down a bit:

2 hours ago, Lordnesh said:

Part of the determining factor, according to them, was because I didn't pester anyone to visit my app. The other, more galling reason was simply because I'm new.

Having people visit your application and comment on it is not actually a requirement, just recommended or talked about. For exceptional applications, you can get the whitelist without any verbal feedback. As for being new, you can still get denied due to being new to the server, but, same as not getting feedback, that alone isn’t why someone is denied. Think of either of these things as being supplements to your application, or perhaps alternative routes you can take when applying. You can be a three year old veteran on server with no outstanding notes and warnings from staff, thus gaining a reputation around the server that requires no feedback, or someone who gathered a lot of feedback due to being shiny and new to prove capacity to RP. If I recall, someone applied for a whitelist before even playing because they had a couple people who could vouch for their ability to RP well. In any case, you were not denied simply because of those factors; they just played into other valid concerns about the application itself, leading to a culmination of reasons focused into a verdict, if I’m understanding this correctly. 

 

2 hours ago, Lordnesh said:

If they had bothered to take the time to ask me questions, I could have told them that I've been playing heavily and consistently for the past several weeks. My behavior has been impeccable, aside from one recent slap on the wrist during one of my rare times as antag.

This statement is a little ironic in and of itself. Not only did they actually ask questions, but there is a statement that is exasperated and accusatory, followed by "my behavior has been impeccable." I read both applications and I agree with Nienna’s reason citing some comments in the second application that were viewed as being somewhat concerning in tone, and this entire thread only validates these concerns in my eyes.

 

2 hours ago, Lordnesh said:

Please read my second app. I wasn't given any constructive criticism. Just things along the lines of "some things can be improved".

I don’t think this is something in general that is done at the end of the forum, simply for the reason that the application is closed shortly after. People who wish to reapply can go to lore deputies or the maintainer of the respective species and ask for more clarity about finer points. I personally spoke to Nienna in DMs on Discord about IPCs before I sent out my whitelist, and they were extremely helpful and provided some insight I probably wouldn’t have gotten otherwise (due to my own misconception of the species).

 

2 hours ago, Lordnesh said:

The second app they as much as admitted they'd already made up their mind before they even asked me anything. How is this fair?

I will agree this could be an error, or maybe not. I’m unsure—I read this as "we were leaning towards denying your application, but wanted to give the benefit of the doubt by asking more questions to give you a chance." Strictly uncharitable if they had no intent of accepting it, but the synthetic lore team is quite frankly one of the most approachable and considerate lore teams, if not the most. I doubt that was done maliciously.

In general, the original post trips over itself many times in message by claiming problems or fraudulent conduct while committing to and even underlining one of the reasons the second application was denied.

Overall as some closing notes, species whitelists are difficult to get into because, as previously stated, the respective lore team carries some of the burden if an accepted player starts creating whitelist issues on station (like playing an IPC as beep beep android person that acts as if they don’t have a positronic). IPC whitelists as a result seem to be one of the most strict species to apply to due to this, in tandem with people applying and missing ideas about the species. In the way you’ve described, I sincerely doubt that whitelist requirements will be "relaxed."

Edited August 17, 2020 by Haydizzle
Pedantic word choice

[Peppermint]

Heyo.

I can understand your frustration with how your last app was handled. I'm not going to comment more though as I wasn't involved. 

In general however, I would point out that whitelists aren't that easy to get and do bring certain issues. I've been playing here close to a year and have two. I applied and passed my command trial before so much as writing up my IPC app. The point being that they can be tricky - they're meant to be - for good or for bad. A few things, however:

1. -Afaik, each race has certain elements that need to be touched upon in an app to demonstrate relative understanding. For IPCs, it might be subjugation, the current political/social climate of opinions, as well as highlighting the differences between humans/robot people. There are also certain 'pitfalls', for certain races, such as applying as a free IPC. 
2. - Background effort is also important if you're a newer face and your characters less well known. Did you ask questions in the lore channel? Did you DM the lore devs and ask for extra help for any more difficult bits? Being seen to put in effort to correct issues goes a long way in life, and this is no different. People applaud asking for help.
3. Lots of people fail their apps. IPC especially. Lots of people then go back, reapply, and make a good character. I'm sure it's frustrating, but it's not abnormal or anything to feel down about. 

[Arrow768]

Moving this to policy suggestions.

I also brought it up with the Lore Masters.
I´ll post a resolution here once we have one @Lordnesh

[Arrow768]

After a discussion we came to the conclusion that the wording of the denial reason wasn't ideal as it implied that feedback is required, which is not the case.

Feedback is not required and in absence of feedback, the application will be judged by what is available in the application itself. Given that you had some rather questionable remarks in it (as pointed out in the reasoning for the denial), we (Mofo and I) believe that the denial in that case was justified.

The denial reason due to the being new to the server is also valid.
If you are new to the server it is likely that you are unaware of the general culture and how to properly represent the species in question.
The lore writer in question does not have a way to judge you outside of your application, the optional feedback and your join date (as lore writers do not have access to player notes).
Given that you did not have any optional feedback (which would have been useful as testimony to your roleplaying abilities), they had to make a judgement based on the content of your application and your account age.

I can understand your frustration with that system (and I am not absolutely happy with it either) but it is currently the best thing we could come up with that strikes a balance between the effort required to get a whitelist and the ability to ensure people actually read the lore and are able to play a character that respects it.

That said, we do not want to change or reduce the requirements for species applications in the near future (unless someone can come up with a alternative system that can satisfy our needs).

In case of your application, I recommend to contact the relevant lore writer via dm, to clear up any questions you might have about the denial reason.

[Lordnesh]

My "questionable remarks" were tongue in cheek, because any story is by design deliberately engineered to be interesting. Every single aspect of a story is crafted. Which is what I was alluding to. The events in the story played out the way they did because that's how I designed it too. I designed it too be interesting, and in order for that to happen certain events had to occur. We're dealing with a fictional universe. Literally everything is by design.

 

What really upsets me is that in both of my applications I was essentially judged based solely on what I wrote in the application itself. In the first app I responded to the questions asked of me, and I was completely ignored. Just dismissed out of hand. In my second app it happened again, but differently. I responded to the questions asked of me, and my answers didn't even matter because they'd already made up their mind. 

 

I wrote this thread to inform you that an aspect of your community is incredibly restrictive, and outright discouraging. Particularly to new players like myself. I have had nothing but wonderful experiences, both in game, and in discord. And it saddens me that I am unable to express myself the way I wish, because I was unable to satisfy some arbitrary, and unclear, metric.

 

As a result of this I no longer have any interest in the character I was attempting to create. Nor do I intended to make another attempt, or make similar attempts for other species. Not only because I feel that it is inherently unfair, but because this entire ordeal had caused me nothing but anxiety. Anxiety as I see other applications get approved, while mine sits there ignored. Anxiety while I wait to see how they'll respond to my answers, only to have my answers be COMPLETELY FUCKING IRRELEVANT.

 

 

[Lordnesh]

And as I said previously. I don't want to write a fucking novel just to play a game in a way I find most enjoyable. I have no interest in stroking someone's ego, just to express myself the way I want. I also have no interest in being judged, when the person judging me doesn't bother to take the time to get to know me. I just want to have fun, and contribute to the narrative.

[Lordnesh]

I accepted the first denial without complaint, because it definitely wasn't my best work. Even though I felt mistreated and ignored. However, the second time I did take issue with the results. Because I noticed a pattern of behavior. When asked questions, I was ignored. When told how I could improve, all I got were vague statements that told me nothing. This is a problem, because who else has had this experience, and lost interest in your server as a result? I'll be honest. As much as I love the server, and particularly medical, this is really putting a dampener on my interest. I still intend to play, but I don't know if I'll be sticking around in the long run. Particularly not when I'm treated this way.

 

*Even writing this is giving me massive amounts of anxiety.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Lordnesh

[Roostercat]

1 hour ago, Lordnesh said:

 

 

What really upsets me is that in both of my applications I was essentially judged based solely on what I wrote in the application itself.

 

 

Believe it or not, this is indeed how applications work when the lore writers have no feedback to go off of. Just because you submitted answers to their questions does not mean that they are obligated to respond in kind, and the questions are usually used to determine how your character is different on an individual basis and to affirm that you do know some of the niches of the species' lore. In the case where they already made up their mind, the questions were likely just your chance to change their mind. We look for people with enough time to where someone can list your character and we can get a rough gist of how you play, hence why getting some game time is important. Sorry, but that is just how this works. 

Also, the attitude is not doing you any favors. Relax.

[niennab]

I understand your frustrations however there were a lot of smaller issues that were accounted for when denying your second application. It wasn’t just the matter of acquiring +1s. In fact, although I didn't want to publicly put you on blast, I felt that you were unable to work with our feedback or concerns. This was felt both in trying to rectify the matter of the IPCs perceived lawed behavior as well as what I pointed out to be questionably passive aggressive answers from you. Sadly, this thread only further solidifies my fears.

The role of a lore maintainer can be one that is mentally and emotionally difficult and so part of my process in considering any application also is a vetting process to see whether a player might become problematic. I don't want to have to strip whitelists just as much as I don't want to have to be in the situation where I have to approach a player over whitelist related issues.

As an aside, we had a moderator look into your note history. I did not want to bring this up publicly in your second application either, but it factored into the matter.

I, however, do not appreciate the blatant lies that I am seeing in the thread. 

12 hours ago, Lordnesh said:

In my first app I responded to the questions posed, but received NO response, just a flat denial.

1 hour ago, Lordnesh said:

In the first app I responded to the questions asked of me, and I was completely ignored. Just dismissed out of hand.

I asked you in your original application to expand on the story in addition to a number of questions. You only answered the questions and so, after waiting the 72 hours I give every application, I closed it on the basis of my request not being answered and the application remaining bare bones.

Quote

The backstory is a bit too bare bones, can you expand upon it as well as the question?: 

Quote

Without the story expanded upon and 72 hours passing since the whitelist was posted, I am going to have to deny the application for now. You're welcome to apply in 3 days however.

Moreover, I did not decide whether I would deny or accept your application before you responded. Although perhaps I was not clear. I wanted to give your application one final saving grace with the last set of questions and criticisms. My team struggled over your application, truly. And I like to believe that had we not cared, we would not have put the time in that we did to try and work through it with you. I am not alone in my endeavor in processing applications.

However I will concede that it would help the server if we had a more concrete guide in place for writing whitelists. Such as offering recommendations on how to build a character or things to consider when demonstrating an understanding of the lore as well as the ability to apply those concepts to a character. There are a lot of uncertainties that are felt in writing an application and so I understand.

Edited August 18, 2020 by niennab
grammar fix

[Lordnesh]

My purpose for creating this thread still stands. I understand why the whitelist for species is in place, that's never been an issue for me. My issue is that the requirements to get approved are too high, which actively discourages new players from fully investing themselves in your community. I've been playing steadily for almost a month now (probably at least 4+ rounds per day), and sometimes the server population isn't very high. Which is a result of several different factors, however, one of which is bound to be new player retention.

 

And I'm speaking from my experience not only as a brand new player, to this server and SS13, but also as someone who has experience introducing new people into a different kind of community. New player experience is very important, if you want to have a healthy amount of growth in your community. And it is from that experience I made this thread to raise what I felt was an issue. I won't lie and say a small part of me didn't hope this would get my app a second look, but that wasn't my purpose in creating this.

 

As a new player, and someone who has had an immense amount of fun playing on this server, I find it regrettable that the requirements for whitelist are too strict (imo). I feel actively discouraged from applying, and no longer have an interest in applying for any whitelist in the future. I'm here to have fun and enjoy myself, not satisfy the whims of a mysterious group of content gate keepers on metrics that are not entirely clear. Because that's what it feels like from my perspective as a new player.

 

I feel that I was denied, because my story didn't satisfy the personal requirements of certain individuals, and also because in my comments I didn't treat the entire thing as "super serious business." Not based off my personality, or my behavior in game. Not based off the attitude I bring to the game and community, or my contributions to helping other new people like myself. And I feel these things should matter so much more than my ability to perfectly convey a story to someone's personal satisfaction. I feel that, while not perfect, I did an adequate enough job to display a decent understanding of the lore, as well as create a character that made sense in the context of the story. But apparently it wasn't good enough, and that seems much more important than my personality, and what I offer to your community. Sitting for several days, stressing over whether or not I'll satisfy the gatekeepers is not fun, and not why I'm on this server. I'm here because I value the community, and the desire to be a semi serious roleplay server. And the whitelist, as it stands in my opinion, is a barrier to fun. This entire experience has been entirely unpleasant, and I have no desire to subject myself to it again.

[Lordnesh]

To put it another way. I feel that the current emphasis for whitelist is too strongly influenced by creating a perfect story, when I feel it should be more influenced by the role player's personal character and willingness to learn. Because that's what really matters. That's what they whole point of the whitelist is for. It's to prevent people from just creating a slap dash character so they can take advantage of in game mechanics, or just general shitty behavior.

 

But again. This is from a new player's perspective 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Lordnesh

[Arrow768]

While you have mentioned things you dislike, and have mentioned some things that you think should be changed you have not described how it should be changed (in sufficient detail to make any changes)

[Lordnesh]

1 minute ago, Arrow768 said:

While you have mentioned things you dislike, and have mentioned some things that you think should be changed you have not described how it should be changed (in sufficient detail to make any changes)

I realize that, and I will be including some things in regards to that in a bit. I just need to write it out.

[Lordnesh]

What is the purpose of a whitelist? The purpose of a whitelist is to filter out undesirable individuals.

Why is it important to filter out undesirable individuals? It is important to filter out undesirable individuals because they negatively impact other people's experience.

Who are undesirable individuals? Undesirable individuals are anyone that, through action or inaction, cause other people's experience to be negatively impacted.

• Trolls: people that derive personal enjoyment from the negative reactions they receive as a result of their actions. They are not here to have fun, they are here to ruin other people's fun.
• Uninformed: people that have little to no understanding of the lore, and act in ways that violate the lore, thereby disrespecting the time and effort people put into creating the lore.
• Inexperienced: people that have little to no experience with the lore or roles. Perhaps they desire the perceived power, or perhaps they simply overestimate their own abilities.
• Powergamers: people that simply want to take advantage of certain mechanical advantages inherent in a role or species. The lore aspects are an afterthought, rather than the point of the character.
• Toxicity: people that always seem to get into heated arguments or complain incessantly. 

What is the purpose of whitelisted roles and species? The purpose of roles and species is to provide incentives to improve your knowledge, and experience the game/lore in a new and novel way. Some people are completely fine with being a standard human without any large amounts of responsibility. However, some people are not. Some people want to experience new things, or struggle with the responsibility of running an entire department.

 

I would like to think I adequately summed up the core points of the topic being discussed. Some things are a bit broad in scope, like "uninformed", as that is an inherently subjective category. However, for the most part I think everyone can agree with what I've laid out.

Now I'll briefly sum up my experience so far to ground what I say, and then offer some observations.

 

In my first app I was denied, which, I won't argue with. It was objectionably barebones. However, that is in large part due to the way I roleplay in general. I don't generally create characters, and then play them. I create a character, and then discover their idiosyncrasies through actual roleplay. Esther Crane and Kerstin Renard are perfect examples. They originally started as characters created for the sole purpose of filling a role in medical. They were a blank slate, until I started playing them. As I did so, they gradually developed a personality through interactions. Crane is a young mouthy young woman that is vibrantly obnoxious, and Renard is calm and collected right up until shit starts hitting the fan. They didn't start out that way. I gradually discovered their personality through roleplay. I say this to explain why my first app was so bare bones. Honestly, filling out the app put me outside of my comfort zone, and I really struggled with it.

However, I did have some issues with how it was handled. As I've mentioned in previous posts, when I was asked questions, and provided answers, I received no feedback. Nothing other than silence, until I eventually received the message that my app had been declined. What I was expecting was a bit of back and forth. What I received was apparent disinterest. I looked at other apps, and saw that other people had been asked questions, and given answer, and then been asked more questions. That wasn't what I got. What I got, again, was silence.

My second app, and the one I do take issue with, was much better. I talked on the discord with someone, and they gave me a kernel of an idea. I sat on it, and gradually molded it into something I found more interesting. Then I started writing. While it isn't as good as others, I would like to think I did a decent job of it. I included several bits of lore, and created what I thought would be an interesting character with a past worth talking about. What I didn't write about, because I didn't realize it would be so relevant, was in character details. Details that you would normally find out through in character interactions. Things like how they felt about their past, and why they did certain things the way they did. I responded with the answers that I had already come up with, and again there was silence. I have a very dry sense of humor, so in my response I spoke a few times jokingly. Which, has apparently been taken as me treating this entire thing with little to no consideration.

In my second app I was declined for several reasons.

• The story was not grounded, but I wasn't told what parts or why.
• My answers to the concerns brought up were not satisfactory. Again, I was not told which ones specifically, or why my answers were unsatisfactory.
• I was a new account. This is a completely arbitrary measure of someone's acceptability. Just because someone is new, does not automatically disqualify them.
• No community feedback. I was not informed this would strongly influence my acceptance/denial, or given a chance to seek out such feedback.
• And lastly, and most galling, was that I have a sense of humor. That I didn't give them the respect they felt they deserved.

But all this is largely irrelevant, because as they said themselves, they'd pretty much made up their mind before they even bothered to ask me anything. I sat there for days waiting to receive any kind of feedback. I answered the questions posed to me, but was not asked any follow up questions, and my answers didn't even matter. I was not informed how my answers were lacking, or what parts of my story were not grounded. I honestly believed my second application would be approved without much issue. I felt that I had demonstrated that I had a decent understanding of the lore, and that I had created a character that fit within it. However, it was not good enough, and I was not told why. I was not given the opportunity to defend myself as a roleplayer, or my story. I was dismissed for being new, and not pestering people to leave feedback on my app. And I was also judged for lese majeste.

It's difficult to just say "do X" to improve the situation, because the fact of the matter is that this entire process is almost completely subjective. What I'd like to see is more communication, and more opportunities to fix the things that are found to be lacking. However, I can't do that if I don't know what they are. I also hesitate to suggest things like, "replace the devs," because I am new and I don't know them all that well. I don't know if this is a case of prejudice based off the fact that I'm new, or if I created a character that did fit within the lore, but they personally found disagreeable. I don't even know if I committed some gross misstep through ignorance. All I do know is that I was declined an opportunity for reasons that seemed completely arbitrary, and didn't seem to take into consideration what I had to offer.

 

As I talked about in the beginning, the point of a whitelist is to filter out undesirables. In what way am I an undesirable? Did I get a part of the lore wrong? Does my character not make sense given the context? How have I interacted with others in Discord, and in game, that would label me as someone that intends to negatively impact other's experience? Have I demonstrated a habit of power gaming? Am I toxic? What is more important to the overall community? That I write a fully fleshed out and satisfying story, which is also a subjective measurement, or that I'm strongly invested in the community? Either in game, over discord, or on the forums?

 

TL:DR

• More communication and transparency about what is found to be lacking in an application
• More consideration placed on out of character aspects, rather than the ability to write a fully fleshed out backstory. Does the backstory make sense? Does the character make sense?
• More opportunities to correct the aspects found lacking.

[ThelonTV]

I haven't thought about applying for a whitelist, but I can kind of see why people get upset about something like this case. Just like writing an academic essay, it's very much dependend on who's grading it...

So to give my 2 cents as a forum lurker, here's my suggestion for more transparency (if it's not already done internally): Make/handout something like this:

 

> You (reviewers) could standardize certain categories like: Believability, Lore correctness, creativity and so on and also add a bonus category like feedback or personal interest or whatever. Then if the person applying got a good enough overall score they're accepted, if not, give them this and maybe a small period to change certain aspects. Alterantively it could be based on a point system. Creativity: 90/100, believability: 30/100.. average of 60, which usually is a pass. That sorta deal.

Again, just a suggestion that would maybe bring more transparency into the whitelisting procedure; stuff like that can be easily automated, shared and archived in excel, just like the crew manifest (which is really awsome)

Edited August 18, 2020 by ThelonTV

[KingOfThePing]

You two are overshooting it. Whitelist apps are not as serious as you two seem to take them. 

 

You can just do the following:

 

- ask people in OOC if they want to review your app prior to posting the app and give you feedback (preferably these people are whitelist holders themselves).

- ask in the species discord for feedback prior or past posting the app.

- ask for feedback or ask questions directly to the deputies or lore master prior to posting or writing the app. 

 

I can assure you 200% that many, many, many people are gladly willing to help, review your app and give you constructive feedback and criticism. 

[Zundy]

Guys, it's already as fair as can be. Look at the archives. From now to mid July 11 out of 16 species apps were accepted (quick maths). Of the 5 rejected: 2 posted app's then ghosted, 2 were yours Lordnesh and 1 was a normal rejection.

The criterion is fine. The transparency is fine.

[Lordnesh]

I had two more things I would like to say. Positive things, since most of my comments have been more on the negative side.

Firstly, despite my issues with the process in general, I have no issue with niennab, the person who interacted with me for both applications. They were both professional and polite in our interactions, and I have no issue with them personally. Which is why I made this thread a suggestion, and not a mod/dev complaint. I do not believe they declined my applications maliciously. My issue has never been with them personally, just with the process as I see it from a new player's perspective.

Secondly, the reason I have been so adamant about this topic, is because just how upsetting it was in comparison to my other experiences with this community. I have genuinely enjoyed my time in this community, both in game and off. People have been incredibly helpful in the various discords, and the two times I've "bumped heads" with mods I was treated with professionalism (even though I disagreed with them). Which is why my experience with the whitelist was so shocking. Despite the ultimate decision made about my suggestion, I will more than likely continue to remain involved in the community.