Feedback Thread : Security clothing tweaks

[wowzewow]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/10508

PR with all le information above

[DanseMacabre]

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changes dark blue warden uniform to match the rest of the department, for consistency reasons and the fact it did not match with any other security accessories

I'm fine with this, I guess.

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added unused tan, blue and navy blue security jackets to the loadout, with some tweaking

I mean, I guess I'm kinda fine with this. Too many sec dressup options can spoil the look of the department, though.

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red forensic tech jacket has been removed for being out of place. in lieu of this, similar tan, blue and navy blue variants have been added. the badge has been removed in order to further distance resemblance from the FIB jacket.

I'm fine with this.

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added armored officer coat (since HOS and warden already had them, it's just to complete the collection. They can only be obtained in lockers, not the loadout. Balance wise it's literally the same as the officer vest with different sprite.)
names have also been changed to show they're armored.

I absolutely detest this, I in fact detest it so strongly that I'd rather see this PR not merged at all than merged with this in it. The armored officer coats for the HoS and warden are leftovers from a bygone era that take us into anime-esque territory. Remove the HoS and warden jackets, I beg you, and do not give them to officers either. Armor should LOOK LIKE ARMOR.

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resprited warden and hos caps. added a corporate version as well, and moved them to an appropriate file, along with the commissar's cap

I am not a fan of this. I preferred the old shape.

[wowzewow]

>I absolutely detest this, I in fact detest it so strongly that I'd rather see this PR not merged at all than merged with this in it. The armored officer coats for the HoS and warden are leftovers from a bygone era that take us into anime-esque territory. Remove the HoS and warden jackets, I beg you, and do not give them to officers either. Armor should LOOK LIKE ARMOR.

Yeah I actually agree with you on this

 

>am not a fan of this. I preferred the old shape.

Yeah, sorry. The old ones covered the eyes and weren't particularly good looking either.

[Carver]

I like armoured coats, but am neutral on the other changes. Armoured coats haven't had good armour values in years so I see no issue with them not looking like overt armour, as they protect from a grand total of barely anything.

I'd perhaps have more to say specifically on the hats if I saw what a standard Officer/Warden/HoS look like wearing them.

[Valwyn]

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changes dark blue warden

All good for me, that is good  

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added unused tan, blue and navy blue security jackets

Perfect, i enjoy those tweaking.

 

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forensic tech jacket

Looks good to me.

 

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added armored officer coat

I like the Armored coats, I'am fine with this, dunno how more choices would hurt, if you dont want it/like it you could just not use it? theres always another option(Armor Vest) for those that don't like the Armored coats., Soo good enough for me.

 

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resprited warden and hos caps. added a corporate version as wel

Very good, i hated the old ones hided your eyes, and those look really good.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Valwyn
typo fix

[niennab]

How do the tan officer additions look with the current available uniforms? Since Zavodskoi sports more of a black or tan with hints of red look, my only fear is that visually the tan uniform is dipping into the Zavodskoi aesthetic.

[Doc]

32 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

changes dark blue warden uniform to match the rest of the department, for consistency reasons and the fact it did not match with any other security accessories

Personally don't like this. It effectively removes the dark-blue uniform and replaces it with another blue uniform which looks extremely similar to a regular officer's uniform. It's the same issue I have with the white-shirt warden uniform, which is why I used the dark-blue one. I think the fact that it doesn't match the officer's gear is.. kind of, part of the point of making it a distinct uniform from the officers'. I also just dislike the washed-out, de-saturated look of the all-blue uniforms really, but I have no reason to ask for it to be removed so long as there is still a different, visually distinct warden uniform to use instead.

For reference:

Officer white-shirt vs Warden white-shirt

Officer blues vs (proposed) Warden blues

Warden dark-blues

 

[wowzewow]

>Armoured coats haven't had good armour values in years so I see no issue with them not looking like overt armour, as they protect from a grand total of barely anything.

Might as well remove the armor altogether, then.

>I'd perhaps have more to say specifically on the hats if I saw what a standard Officer/Warden/HoS look like wearing them.

Sure. (officers don't get peaked caps, berets only harhar.)

Here's HOS.

[wowzewow]

28 minutes ago, Doc said:

Personally don't like this. It effectively removes the dark-blue uniform and replaces it with another blue uniform which looks extremely similar to a regular officer's uniform. It's the same issue I have with the white-shirt warden uniform, which is why I used the dark-blue one. I think the fact that it doesn't match the officer's gear is.. kind of, part of the point of making it a distinct uniform from the officers'. I also just dislike the washed-out, de-saturated look of the all-blue uniforms really, but I have no reason to ask for it to be removed so long as there is still a different, visually distinct warden uniform to use instead.

Yeah, sorry. I can't provide a special unique jumpsuit for the Warden. They DO get a fancy peaked cap too, if you're looking to differentiate yourself.

Other than that there's really not much I can do since they're supposed to be uniforms. You could always recolor a default jumpsuit in the loadout and achieve the same effect.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, wowzewow said:

Yeah, sorry. I can't provide a special unique jumpsuit for the Warden. They DO get a fancy peaked cap too, if you're looking to differentiate yourself.

Other than that there's really not much I can do since they're supposed to be uniforms. You could always recolor a default jumpsuit in the loadout and achieve the same effect.

...You can, because it currently exists. You're removing it. I'm asking you not to. If that doesn't change, going to have to say -1 on the PR as a whole. Move the other stuff to a different PR and that's fine though, don't have any problems with the other changes.

[wowzewow]

3 hours ago, niennab said:

How do the tan officer additions look with the current available uniforms? Since Zavodskoi sports more of a black or tan with hints of red look, my only fear is that visually the tan uniform is dipping into the Zavodskoi aesthetic.

Here's them side-by-side. Personally I think the tan is really bright to be mistaken for Zav.

2 hours ago, Doc said:

...You can, because it currently exists. You're removing it. I'm asking you not to. If that doesn't change, going to have to say -1 on the PR as a whole. Move the other stuff to a different PR and that's fine though, don't have any problems with the other changes.

I'm just setting a precedent for the future to make it more fair for the other jobs. Wardens also have a special Commissar coat and hat, which even then I feel should be removed as well.

[Carver]

3 hours ago, wowzewow said:

>I'd perhaps have more to say specifically on the hats if I saw what a standard Officer/Warden/HoS look like wearing them.

Sure. (officers don't get peaked caps, berets only harhar.)

Here's HOS.

Not sure how to feel about the weird two pixels poking down on each side of the head. Looks a bit odd.

3 hours ago, wowzewow said:

>Armoured coats haven't had good armour values in years so I see no issue with them not looking like overt armour, as they protect from a grand total of barely anything.

Might as well remove the armor altogether, then.

That is not what should be taken away from my statement. I prefer them having some form of values, and am against the idea that the armour should be removed.

[Valwyn]

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>Armoured coats haven't had good armour values in years so I see no issue with them not looking like overt armour, as they protect from a grand total of barely anything.

 

 

Keep the Armor values please, i Bet the officers dont want to be deciding between the Armor Vest and the coat in hot moments for defense, and having to switch jackets slots all the time. that is just annoying, and having to keep the Armor Vest on the bag eats alot of space i belive.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Valwyn

[DanseMacabre]

8 hours ago, Valwyn said:

Keep the Armor values please, i Bet the officers dont want to be deciding between the Armor Vest and the coat in hot moments for defense, and having to switch jackets slots all the time. that is just annoying, and having to keep the Armor Vest on the bag eats alot of space i belive.

You should have to decide between style and defense in a combat situation. Why would a simple jacket have the same level of protection as a kevlar plate carrier? It doesn't make any logical sense - and it also hampers quick identification of security officers who are ready to fight. I can imagine an antag going in, thinking an officer is unarmored (because, after all, they ARE unarmored), only to find out that their jacket has a magical enchantment and the thin cotton can stop half of the damage they're dealing.

[Carver]

49 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

hampers quick identification of security officers who are ready to fight.

Does it, once you learn to recognize the apparel? It is no different than the HoS or Warden wearing their coats instead of their vests.

There's no magic in the future preventing the development of plated jackets or durable materials, either.

[Valwyn]

1 hour ago, DanseMacabre said:

You should have to decide between style and defense in a combat situation. Why would a simple jacket have the same level of protection as a kevlar plate carrier? It doesn't make any logical sense - and it also hampers quick identification of security officers who are ready to fight. I can imagine an antag going in, thinking an officer is unarmored (because, after all, they ARE unarmored), only to find out that their jacket has a magical enchantment and the thin cotton can stop half of the damage they're dealing.

 

No You do not sacrifice, it does Make sense, i just posted a picture of one, In the case of the picture the vest is attached to the coat. Magical Enchatment? Does not seem very magical on the picture, thin cotton? where did you read that? because the Armored  Trenchcoat  of the Head of Security says : ''A trenchcoat lined with a protective alloy and some slick leather'', Protective Alloy seems very different than Thin cotton.

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> There's no magic in the future preventing the development of plated jackets or durable materials, either.

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it also hampers quick identification of security officers who are ready to fight.

Have you seen the sprite? if so can you post for us?

Even assuming is the Same Armored Trenchcoat of the HOS, nothing that a small sprite fix to add sec colors and the rankings of the jumpsuits, wearing a sec armband won't fix.

That said, i dont think its the Same was the Armored Trenchcoat of the HOS.

 

> with silver rank pips and livery.", looks good enough to ID security.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Valwyn

[DanseMacabre]

Because is seems Wezzy has reversed his position back to his original one regarding armored officer jackets, I must once again try to make the case that they are a net detriment to the server and the server's atmosphere.

When you see this, what do you think of it? Because in my eyes, this is a component of a dress uniform. It has little coverage for the torso, it has shiny silver buttons, so on and so forth. This is not a component of normal officer patrol wear - this is something a security officer wears for special occasions. There are countless reasons why a security officer would not wear something like this for patrol clothing - from inefficiency, to comfort, to choke risk, to the fact that intimidating people is part of the job, and a jacket that looks like you'd be wearing it to the secofficer's ball is not intimidating.

Additionally, there is a matter of atmosphere. In our oppressive corporate environment, how do you want armed corporate goons to appear? 

Like a friendly neighborhood bobby, wearing a uniform that's practically their sunday best, or
A private security contractor working for a megacorporation that regularly abuses the rights of it's employees?

Given the current equipment of the security department, I'm inclined to believe it is the latter.

The fact of the matter is that this is not armor. It is not supposed to be armor. By design, it is not something you would wear into a combat situation. You wear it to look nice, for a nice event. You do not wear it alongside a helmet, wielding a laser rifle.

Additionally, this would have an item that is identical to it without armor values. So, yes. There will be trouble identifying whether an officer is armored.

Additionally, this is a sec officer buff. This armor will be SUPERIOR to the plate carrier by virtue of having more storage, while having identical armor values.

All in all, a discord user said it best:

Armor should look like armor. Clothing should look like clothing. I personally intend to work on this after my current PR goes through by way of removing the extant armored clothing current in the game.

[Carver]

So reduce the pockets, remove the non-armoured variant. Easy.

[DanseMacabre]

3 minutes ago, Carver said:

So reduce the pockets, remove the non-armoured variant. Easy.

Or remove the armored variant and make it so armor doesn't look like clothing and clothing doesn't look like armor. If sec officer is about playing dressup to you, do it at your peril.

Edited November 12, 2020 by DanseMacabre

[Valwyn]

@DanseMacabre , Okay.. now seeing the sprite, i trough it would be more like the HOS(i like the thickness feeling of it, feels armored) or Warden one(the Warden one even have plate on the chest soo it makes sense)

the jacket is.. that is too thin...

thats Formal Uniform.

 

Now i agreed with Danse.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Valwyn

[Carver]

Curiously, after checking, the HoS equivalent isn't armoured. The Warden equivalent is armoured. No matter what is chosen to be done with the Officer variant, it should be mirrored for whichever of the other two does not match it.

As for armoured clothing, armoured clothing remains fine. The armoured trenchcoat has always been a staple, as has the commissar jacket.

[Wigglesworth Jones]

Personally, I would prefer only the HoS coat be armored. However, I do not think that a formal jacket should have the same armor values as a plate carrier - if it had to have armor, I think it should provide less protection than the typical armor vest, if only because an officer fighting mercs in a dress coat would look very goofy.

[DanseMacabre]

12 minutes ago, Carver said:

No matter what is chosen to be done with the Officer variant, it should be mirrored for whichever of the other two does not match it.

It shall be done, king.

[The lancer]

I do not agree with the tan security jackets. They add yet another colour in an already colour inconsistent department.

[DronzTheWolf]

I never did understand what force prevents us from wearing jackets over our armor, something many people do IRL. Not necessarily police, but average people. However, I also think that there's already enough things you can cover your armor with already if you want to appear less intimidating. Ponchos and the like. I won't shoot this down but I would like for it to be considerably different to look armored if only for the sake of antags. An armored jacket would be more EPMC's deal than NT Sec.