[Resolved] Player Complaint - Cnyam

[Camellia]

BYOND Key: Dantzy

Game ID:  caT-dozT

Player Byond Key/Character name: Cnyam

Staff involved: 
Alberyk though only in passing,

I asked about the bug being found and he couldn't do much as it was too late by then

Reason for complaint: 

My main reason for the complaint is that I feel there was a bit of bad faith involved in this scenario.  I will say that originally, I did not care for the IR, save for the bug somehow being exposed though after dwelling on it, I feel there was some foul play involving Cnaym's character causing the incident that he used to add/create an IR.

The main points I'll be covering are;

• Reaction/Information after the round concluded
  • This is in regards to it being told to Sue and Matt that, considering where my character was sitting, there would've been no logical way the bug would've been found. In a realistic sense, anyway, my character was under the table, I planted it via a simple click so it wouldn't show up in chat though instead, Ana had found the bug on a chair, completely out in the open when my character had been sitting here;
    • 
  • Ignoring the meatpudding in the diagram above, the bug was found completely opposite of where they were, I remember seeing the user who played Yermak was also there to see that my character was sitting nowhere near the chair in question.
  • I had asked in an discord with Matt that the only way it would've been like that would be through a sprite glitch which we agreed on, then cnaym, who wasn't even near(?) Ana when they found it yet it was added to the IR anyway, knowing full well of the conversation that was just taking place and how it wouldn't make logical sense for it to be there.
• Bait into an IR
  • Moving on from that, the character played by cnaym had placed a copy of the Hadiist Manifesto under the pretense of, in the IR's own words, " left his own copy at the consulars office so they could at least enjoy the scripture by our donators for themself"
  • Such an action would obviously cause a negative reaction, you don't give John D. Rockefeller a copy of the communist manifesto as a worker, you'd be fired, so following that up, my character assumed it was Ana who did it,
    •  "The consular made a big issue out of this to harm Ana Roh'hi'tin even though he said multiple times that it was his manifest and that it was simply missplaced.
    • Why would they misplace it in the diplomatic reception? There was no reason to, he did it on purpose to provoke a response and he got one, and this was added fuel to the IR. I also have a screenshot of cnaym saying;
      • 
      • Considering his joking tone, it's clear they were attempting to do that to fuck with my character and they did, they got a response and added that to the IR in question.
  • Later on, cnaym writes in the IR the following
    • He did not want to cause a political issue by saying that he brought it to their office so he claimed to have lost it and some other crewmember must have then delivered it to the office of the consular.
      • cnaym was not an antagonist or anything else of the sort, he knowingly caused an issue here and admitted that he didn't want to tell the truth here for fear of punishment, instead, he enabled a bad scenario, had a character yell at another and made it a big point of his IR over "misconduct" over something he caused.
  • In this scenario honestly, I don't appreciate the fact that cnaym willingly baited a hostile reaction from a character and used it as a main point in an IR he caused, knowing full well that he would make the DPRA consular upset and not only did they make them upset, they made sure to use that interaction to further fuel an IR and again, made that the main point.
• Regarding Command, my main issue will be with the Head of Security, "Evelyn Morgan" and maybe the Captain but not quite at the same time.
  • My character had been seeking an injunction on Ana for perceived insults, perceived being the fact that they thought she was called a beast when apparently, it was Sam but she didn't know that at the time. She had saw that the bug was found by her via the PDA/tablet thing. My character, following that, went to her office, chatted with Milo and came out with seeing the Hadiist Manifesto on the desk outside.
    • Yalena attempted numerous times to communicate with the Captain, and they did, they investigated it. She had however, been waiting sometime for a response so she had attempted to speak to Valery here and instead, they were told she was "busy"
      What was she busy with? She was busy faxing Central Command about my removal. Meanwhile, IR rules state that;
  • You are expected to try and find a resolution to situations in the round within the chain of command. You may seek further action on unresolved issues via an IR. 
    • By "resolution" they had attempted to resolve it with Central, Yalena was never spoken to by anyone in Command about the bug, which they made a fax about. And I do find that poor Command play because it's your job to communicate and instead, they purposefully avoided my character, basically a shoot first and ask questions later situation here.
    • the other issue is that I had attempted to gather a witness and the Captain made no attempt to collect a witness even though she had one and they were unable to testify because of a vampire gimmick, leading to further faxes (behind the scenes) and arguments in the security lobby.

All in all, the main issues with Cnyam is that;

>Bad Faith regarding the use of bugs after Matt, Sue, and I agreed it had to have been a glitch, no regular consular would leave bugs out in the open.

>Bait into making an IR/perhaps adding more fuel into an IR by placing down a book that'd clearly offend an obviously already irate character and refusing to speak up and saying that they placed it down and taking the reactions and making that into the focus of an IR

followed up by;
>IRing over an investigation that led him to being unable to celebrate the holiday, even though he could've gotten out of the entire situation by saying he placed it down, instead, he said someone else misplaced it and didn't want to admit it, so by refusing to admit it, he enabled a bad scenario and has used it against my character, again, baiting into an IR.

The IR system wasn't, made for this, however, and I didn't appreciate being immediately being messaged about it without any provocation by Cnaym previously, as one can find here;

  

For Command Staff;

>Poor Command play, refusing to cooperate with a consular, hiding details from the person involved aka, a lack of communication from the Captain and Commander/HoS

All in all, the only thing I want is for Cnaym to be punished, I feel like the Command staff in question could be just asked to be more mindful next time but other than that, I don't like the fact his character was enabling a situation to get another in trouble, a situation he caused.

I'll inform staff who the Captain was in question in a secure channel to ensure privacy, as well as the Commander/HoS

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? (Yes or no, then an explanation for why not, if applicable.):
 See staff involved.
Note I'm not contesting, I'm bringing up something that came up.

Approximate Date/Time: 
Twelve hours ago.

[ShesTrying]

Hi. Myself and @Aboshedab will be taking this. @Cnaym a response when you can would be appreciated.

[Peppermint]

I was the HoS. You're right I wasn't dealing with your characters problems, due to the fact I was also running around with the bugging investigation (how would I know it was a tile issue, whilst in game?) and multiple vampires on a crazy hectic round. I personally find your character's reactions rather unbelievable, especially given we did not get a single line of command dialogue up until a burst of complaints regarding Ana. 

I asked you to take your complaints to the existing HoP when you originally made them, and then Captain, due to the fact I was incredibly busy.

The investigation was handled in secrecy due to the fact dealing with consoler's as command when they mess up is utter CBT. I'm unable to question you, unable to arrest, and so contacted CC to wait for a response. All I knew about the Ana issue was your character throwing a hissy fit in command comms whilst we were on red alert, about some manifesto thing. No details were given, and I'm really unsure what the complaint is aimed toward if it isn't the fact I didn't deal with your problem whilst wrestling with considerably more important ones.

EDIT: I was also going to IR it, after talking it through with one of the CCIA team. Not from spite, just as it looked fun. The way Cnyam has set it out and taken the lead on it probably benefits your character tbh, given there's a lot more fuel there to cause issues to the 'NT' side.

I am very curious as to why you think your character - who has been proven to be bugging the station, and therefor acted as a malicious agent - would be involved in an investigation into themselves. It was a sensitive nature, hence I contacted C-C rather than move to strip immunity; a choice that was made by all of command at the time. Likewise, what is the 'PDA tablet' thing you refer to? As all contact for said investigation was done in person, face to face, with Evelyn specifically telling people not to put anything on PDAs. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Lemei
Added into

[Alberyk]

@Camellia Why did you even put a bug in the middle of the bar?

[Cnaym]

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

All in all, the only thing I want is for Cnaym to be punished, I feel like the Command staff in question could be just asked to be more mindful next time but other than that, I don't like the fact his character was enabling a situation to get another in trouble, a situation he caused.

I am a bit baffled as to why you wish a fellow player to be OOCly punished for an absolutely harmless IC interaction. The IR system is there to generate roleplay and neither the bug nor the book are the reason / main point of the IR. The IR is an IC representation of why consulars should not be involved with celebrations if it causes conflict, at no point is it designed to or asking for punishment. It is simply a continuation. I had no clue that it was an OOC issue to you and as far as I am aware neither you nor your character have been punished for it so I am not sure where this reaction is comming from.

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

Poor Command play, refusing to cooperate with a consular, hiding details from the person involved aka, a lack of communication from the Captain and Commander/HoS

They had a consular place bugs on station and asked central command for advice. That is not poor command play. I have not read the faxes but that is what I was told ICly and it makes sense to me that the person being investigated against does not get to participate in said investigation if the stakes are big enough (apearently the HoS did not want to be responsible for a political clusterfuck, which is understandable).

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

The IR system wasn't, made for this, however, and I didn't appreciate being immediately being messaged about it without any provocation by Cnaym previously, as one can find here;

The IR system is an extension of IC interaction. It was not used to get you or your character into any trouble. It was used to inform central that there was an issue to investigate (if they even want to). The process involves interviewing all parties and deciding from there on if any action follows. None of this has happened yet and is unlikely to happen since the IR boils down to "muh holidays".

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

Bad Faith regarding the use of bugs after Matt, Sue, and I agreed it had to have been a glitch, no regular consular would leave bugs out in the open.

I have no way of knowing what you decided to keep canon with others. This is for CCIA to know and decide if they want to bin the IR because of this or not. Even after I informed you of the IR you told me that you did not much care for the entire thing.

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

Bait into making an IR/perhaps adding more fuel into an IR by placing down a book that'd clearly offend an obviously already irate character and refusing to speak up and saying that they placed it down and taking the reactions and making that into the focus of an IR

Not the focus of the IR. An IC response to your character replacing the manifests earlier. Tamir went to the captain and just said it was his. The same happened two more times with your character involved.

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

In this scenario honestly, I don't appreciate the fact that cnaym willingly baited a hostile reaction from a character and used it as a main point in an IR he caused, knowing full well that he would make the DPRA consular upset and not only did they make them upset, they made sure to use that interaction to further fuel an IR and again, made that the main point.

See above.

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

Later on, cnaym writes in the IR the following

• He did not want to cause a political issue by saying that he brought it to their office so he claimed to have lost it and some other crewmember must have then delivered it to the office of the consular.
  • cnaym was not an antagonist or anything else of the sort, he knowingly caused an issue here and admitted that he didn't want to tell the truth here for fear of punishment, instead, he enabled a bad scenario, had a character yell at another and made it a big point of his IR over "misconduct" over something he caused.

 

This has multiple simple reasons. During the round Tamir admitted that it was his. He did not admit to have placed it there to annoy your consular or get back at them for other manifest / earlier interaction. Saying a random crewmember must have put it there was a simple case of plausible deniability.

The IR is meant to clear things up, not to cause further issues. From an IC perspective it would make little sense to waste company recourses for a full investigation into something that will be blamed on him either way. The IR however goes to central, not to the captain, if CCIA wants to punish him for that they can absolutely do so. Such is the risk in writing an IR.

Lying in IRs or interviews to protect yourself is allowed, but will be punished if found out (IC issue). Lying in IRs to get others in trouble will get you OOCly in trouble. This entire thing was made in good faith and needed neither. Tamir would like to keep his job. I OOCly do not hold any ill will towards you. The entire round was pretty entertaining and well received, as such having it documented or investigated ICly was considered to be fun for all sides involved on my end.

1 hour ago, Camellia said:

My main reason for the complaint is that I feel there was a bit of bad faith involved in this scenario.  I will say that originally, I did not care for the IR, save for the bug somehow being exposed though after dwelling on it, I feel there was some foul play involving Cnaym's character causing the incident that he used to add/create an IR.

This is pretty much the only part of the entire thing that makes sense to me. I informed you via DMs about having written up an IR, I joked about it in the usual tone I have in DMs and on discord in general, I did not see any issues with the IR or the fact that I had written it up. At no point did you mention such and a simple DM could have cleared this up much faster than the complaint. I have no clue how we got from  "feel there was a bit of bad faith" to "All in all, the only thing I want is for Cnaym to be punished,..."

In my eyes the IR is the result of people roleplaying together and the wish to continue that. Otherwhise I would have ahelped or made a player complaint but for me this entire thing is IC as I have no outstanding issues with you.

[Susan]

I'd like to clear a few things up.

Tamir was not there when the bug was found, but he was brought into the investigation and helped look for other bugs, so he was aware of it.

As for the 'bug', I don't agree it was a glitch. I explained in DMs that what likely happened is you clicked on the table with the bug and the bug's offset was adjusted to where you clicked on the table. This is how it always functions when you put an item on a table, it places it under your cursor, so if you clicked near the edge of the table with the bug it is likely why it was peeking out. This is intended gameplay, and how the code works. It is functional, and not really a glitch. Just an unfortunate series of events.

Ultimately, I do not believe Cnaym acted with any untoward motions here. Had he not made an IR over the situation, I would have been forced to file one myself.

[Camellia]

5 hours ago, Alberyk said:

@Camellia Why did you even put a bug in the middle of the bar?

As explained to Abo, being aware that there was a celebration, my character wanted to see if they was anyone not upholding Al'mariist views/acting against the state. 

Moving on

5 hours ago, Susan said:

I'd like to clear a few things up.

Tamir was not there when the bug was found, but he was brought into the investigation and helped look for other bugs, so he was aware of it.

As for the 'bug', I don't agree it was a glitch. I explained in DMs that what likely happened is you clicked on the table with the bug and the bug's offset was adjusted to where you clicked on the table. This is how it always functions when you put an item on a table, it places it under your cursor, so if you clicked near the edge of the table with the bug it is likely why it was peeking out. This is intended gameplay, and how the code works. It is functional, and not really a glitch. Just an unfortunate series of events.

Ultimately, I do not believe Cnaym acted with any untoward motions here. Had he not made an IR over the situation, I would have been forced to file one myself.

 that I know, if I said he was, I was confusing myself and I apologize.
I had vividly remembered placing the bug on the table, and me, being aware how.. Buggy, they are, even emoted them being placed under there should, for whatever reason, should one want to contest it was just "found on table,"

Leaving bugs and the such out in the open isn't something my character would realistically even do, also considering the fact that my character wasn't even near the seat where it was found, I find it in bad faith that after I explained it shouldn't be there, Cnaym added it to the appeal.
 

5 hours ago, Lemei said:

I was the HoS. You're right I wasn't dealing with your characters problems, due to the fact I was also running around with the bugging investigation (how would I know it was a tile issue, whilst in game?) and multiple vampires on a crazy hectic round. I personally find your character's reactions rather unbelievable, especially given we did not get a single line of command dialogue up until a burst of complaints regarding Ana. 

Regarding the sudden burst, that was, from what I believe was the Hadiist Manifesto being found, she blamed Ana and wanted an injunction against them because of the perceived insults with the Hadiist manifesto being found shortly after, my character was on edge (over the bug being found because she saw it through the PDA) with insults being sent to her, though that is what she perceived IC as I was told oocly, it was directed to Sam, the Cargo Tech, though this was told after round.
 

5 hours ago, Lemei said:

I asked you to take your complaints to the existing HoP when you originally made them, and then Captain, due to the fact I was incredibly busy.

The issue here was I attempted to speak to you guys numerous times, admittedly, during the antag threat though I recall waitin and then I saw the Captain talking to Tamir so I went to you, and you brushed me off, even though the threat was resolved, so then I went to the Captain who refused to see a witnesses I had cited because they had come up, even though that round they were unable to because a vampire had sucked them dry, so that by antag influence brought on by an antag, the characters could not testify, further leading to the IR because had the Captain, or you, or anyone, refused to even talk to them or meet up with them in person, something, I feel, Command staff should not be doing because it is your job to communicate with people and instead, you worked around me, in secrecy because, as you say here, "CBT"

6 hours ago, Lemei said:

The investigation was handled in secrecy due to the fact dealing with consoler's as command when they mess up is utter CBT. I'm unable to question you, unable to arrest, and so contacted CC to wait for a response. All I knew about the Ana issue was your character throwing a hissy fit in command comms whilst we were on red alert, about some manifesto thing. No details were given, and I'm really unsure what the complaint is aimed toward if it isn't the fact I didn't deal with your problem whilst wrestling with considerably more important ones.

 

I want to direct you to Directive Twelve that states the following;
 

Command staff are expected to engage representatives through diplomacy and to consent to reasonable requests. The representative is not part of the station chain of command. The representative is granted special status in relation to corporate regulations;"

The representative does not serve brig time for low level infractions, the fine alternative can be used in those cases. The representative can serve brig time for medium and high level infractions, with command staff being able to contact Central Command requesting the revocation of the representative's privilege.

The representative's office offers immunity to the representative. Security may not enter to conduct arrests under normal circumstances. Entering or refusing to exit the office is considered trespassing. The office's immunity may be revoked by the captain or a captain level decision.

Read more at: Station Directives: Directive 12.

 

You or the Captain, the two people I had sought out, refused to consent to a reasonable request, that being my characters requests for a witness even when the vampire incident was resolved near the end of the round. The way your wording is that, it was confusing, causes stress and it was easier to just file the fax, which was done, and I find that, again, an act of bad faith because you could have resolved the scenario had they been spoken to about the bug, instead, the situation got to the point where she assumed a political enemy was plotting against her. There was certainly enough time for it to be resolved in round yet my consular was never spoken to about the bug or even books. 

As for faulting you on the bug being found, I'm not, if it looks like it, I'm sorry in that case. I was saying that, to Cnaym, it is bad faith to act on bad faith when it was revealed that for some reason, the surveillance device was offset to a location it logically wouldn't have been in, as you can see in the image, my character was sitting there and as I said, she was icly under the table but somehow, the surveillance device was somehow across the seat.. out in the open? The crux is that it shouldn't have done that here.
 

6 hours ago, Lemei said:

I am very curious as to why you think your character - who has been proven to be bugging the station, and therefor acted as a malicious agent - would be involved in an investigation into themselves. It was a sensitive nature, hence I contacted C-C rather than move to strip immunity; a choice that was made by all of command at the time. Likewise, what is the 'PDA tablet' thing you refer to? As all contact for said investigation was done in person, face to face, with Evelyn specifically telling people not to put anything on PDAs. 

Regarding this, in a scenario where you are a diplomat, you are given an insult by a political enemy in the midst of a cold war. You are then suddenly dropped off, mysteriously, a book of your political enemy after the insult, of course the character is going to wanna see, personally, if there was foul play involved in the whole scenario considering that also, the Forensic Tech had NKA citizenship, my character anticipated foul play, that's why they were involved.

If you consider, at most a yellow tier infraction, punishable by at least 3 minutes in the brig to be the sign of a malicious agent, with only one bug being found, I find making an IR a gross overreaction on the part of the command staff. It was done to ensure there are no enemies against the Al'mariist state secretly celebrating the holiday of their enemy and if NanoTrasen harbors a political enemy, this could cost some serious political damage, of course, this would've been revealed ic had the command staff sought out my character about the bug which never happened. There was no attempt to resolve it on station with the character and because of, what you said, "is utter CBT"

When I attempted to resolve the incident, the Captain refused to get witnesses, and then used that against me, saying that it never happened if they didn't come up, despite the fact that because of antag influences, that being a vampire, they were unable to testify, leading to, again, the Captain saying she doesn't care.
It shouldn't matter if you don't care, its your job to communicate, the both of you and because of the lack of communication, we have this

 

---

For Cnaym, because I wrote a lot, I'll explain in a few hours here or over DMs to Abo, but I will say, sending a joking response about how your trying to get a character punished looks bad, and after dwelling on it, that's how I perceived it. If I went up to Sue and went;
"I'm so ready to get that Hadiist rafama IR'd,"
she'd, naturally, be pretty pissed.

[Cnaym]

2 hours ago, Camellia said:

For Cnaym, because I wrote a lot, I'll explain in a few hours here or over DMs to Abo, but I will say, sending a joking response about how your trying to get a character punished looks bad, and after dwelling on it, that's how I perceived it. If I went up to Sue and went;
"I'm so ready to get that Hadiist rafama IR'd,"
she'd, naturally, be pretty pissed.

This is the IR in question. There is at no point a request or even the intend to get your consular punished for this. It is a general plea for improvement as to provide issues with festivities in the future.

This is the message I send to you. Again. At no point was the aim of this IR to get you ICly or OOCly into trouble. The tone should make that more than clear. There is a difference between "He just wanted to drink" and "I'm so ready to get that Hadiist rafama IR'd,"

It's kinda fascinating to me that Tamir is the most chill person to file the IR here really. Sues character had all the more reason to do such as a defense against the consulars claims and to clear their name, the captain and HoS had a very good reason to file the IR over having an official spy on the crew. The fact that it is now Tamirs IR about giving the consulars a free day is probably the most harmless thing that could have come out of this and I don't quite understand why it was interpreted as threatening or harmful. I'd have removed it myself if you had told me that this thing was such a big deal for you. Instead we got this complaint with a clear plea for punishment.

8 hours ago, Susan said:

As for the 'bug', I don't agree it was a glitch. I explained in DMs that what likely happened is you clicked on the table with the bug and the bug's offset was adjusted to where you clicked on the table. This is how it always functions when you put an item on a table, it places it under your cursor, so if you clicked near the edge of the table with the bug it is likely why it was peeking out. This is intended gameplay, and how the code works. It is functional, and not really a glitch. Just an unfortunate series of events.

That pretty much lines up with how I understand the situation. We do not have a Gamemaster to decide what a character can see or not, nor is there a system in place for stuff like perception checks. People usually right click in this game to inspect a tile, this can happen for a ton of reasons and is not meta or abuse of mechanics. The example that I used was that you cannot emote being under the table and expect people who go into the bar 10 mins later to know that you emoted a sneaky. This is simply not how the game currently works. My suggestion was to make the bugs have a hide function to not let the sprite pop up as largely or appear in the inspection menu (right click or turf menu). Otherwise I could emote being too large to be grabbed with my G2 and ahelp anyone who attempts it because the mechanics do not care about my emote. The bug (listening device) was not there because something in the game broke or a ghost let people know via LooC where to look for it, it was exactly where it was because you put it there (knowingly or not of how easy it was to find).

As it stands right now Abo and ShesTrying are going to handle this entire thing so feel free to forward any information you do not wish to share publicly with either of them. As of this post nobody has been ICly or OOCly punished or harmed. This complaint though is public, so I would prefer a focus on clearing the situation up with evidence. How people feel about it or what they spoke about with others matters little to the claim of the complaint itself. As a formal issue on my end though I would recommend wording complaints more towards resolving a situation than outright stating that the goal is to punish someone. Kinda left a bad taste to read that part.

[Peppermint]

This'll be my last post on it, until admins chime in.

- You can quote the regulation at me, but that's exactly what we did. You were not arrested, not questioned, and not dealt with by command until we heard from CC as to what to do - something the entire command staff had agreed upon prior. When instructions were given, they were stuck to. From my perspective, this was not a minor thing. You can say you placed one bug, but how was I supposed to know that IC? All Evelyn is aware of is that someone outside of NT has come onto their station, bugged a public space to spy on folks - politically motivated or not - and has expressed dislike toward the holidays. She has no reason to ask for a polite chat when she has a potential spy. Especially not when I'm dealing with multiple vampire attacks. You can mention it being oh so awful if NT finds out they have political unrest aboard their station, but do you really think they'd be happy your character was spying on them? That sounds considerably worse than anything else.

- From what I'm gathering, your entire complaint towards me seems based on how I refused some witness thing, which - as the logs will show - I never was even aware of, let alone put my foot down for. Again, why did you not talk to the HoP as I asked you to do, due to the fact I was busy? I made it clear I'd back their decision, whatever it was. If I had actively antagonised you, or if it was extended and I wasn't busy, or if Eve had decided to just kick down the doors, sure, I can see an OOC problem there. Yet none of those things happened. 

- By the time the vampire threat had been fully dealt with - which was quite late into the round - the Captain was about, and it was therefor their prerogative as to what they wanted to do. I had no input passed that, so whatever the issues there, I do not believe they fall on my shoulders. My character was not asked her thoughts, notified, or any such anything until we spoke in in the brig, at which point Evelyn consented to having the forensic tech help out. Which, to my opinion, was the only thing I'd explicitly had asked that I could reasonably deal with up until then.  The fact that the Captain told you she didn't care is not something I was aware of, or can change.  

- Again, your character was under investigation, followed by talking to C-C.  There are IC consequences for IC actions. I was contacted by one of the CCIA agents to discuss making an IR with their blessing, due to the fact the situation was not resolved on station. Mostly due to time constraints. Getting replies took us right up to the transfer mark, at which point was too late.

- Overall, I feel this is an IC issue to a T. I did not do anything malicious towards you OOC, and IRs are not punishments. Evelyn is a human, played as if she is utterly awful at politics and subtlety, and had no desire to get wrangled up in what could be a pretty nasty situation. I had no way to know if you had one bug, multiple, or what your motive was, and asking you just offers time for the destruction of evidence, which is something she has dealt with through the previous Tajara arcs, or her saying something stupid and getting into trouble. There is no trust there, no pre-built character relationship. Nothing. Likewise, the fact that this complaint has popped up after an IR speaks volumes to me, that otherwise there would have been no complaint. If there was an OOC issue to how I was playing, did you ahelp at all? Why was there no complaint previously? Why, when it was discussed in said discord, did you not mention it was problem? All in all, this situation should never have taken place, and  I struggle to see why an assumedly politically savvy diplomat would risk so much to bug a lowkey station in the middle of the holidays.

[Lmwevil]

I was the Captain this round, I never once made a fax, that was organized by the HoP and HoS who were handling that situation. 

Astrava investigated as best she could while also handling other violent crisis at the time, and even got forensics despite them not wanting to help you to check out that book. Nobody you quoted to call out Sue on what they said could be acted upon because it wasn't recorded nor anyone else confirming your story. Unfortunately a she said he said is NOT something that could be charged on, however honest I knew you were oocly being. At no point did Astrava order investigations into you or actually do anything against the DPRA consular other than be briefed on the bug and to that she even verbally responded 'I mean if it stays in their office.' apathetically. 

If the round was longer after that forensic detail came back, it would have been handled accordingly. Reminder that Captain has a lot of shit to handle and this was NOT an extended round, if I recall correctly it was actually a bit of a cluster fuck. I apologise if you wanted better responses but my hands were tied from the moment I joined to the moment I left. To re-iterate the only thing I had been doing is READING the faxes my heads were sending since I wanted to be clued in, at no point did my stamp, verbal permission or signature cross a single form involved. 

I think this round I woke up uuuuuhhhhh 1:30 in or something? It was playing endless catchup if it's the one I think it is. 

[Lmwevil]

wait no this is the celebration one, it was still a clusterfuck in that I had no time to breathe but I was there from the start.  

As a cursed double post note: if I was involved in the situation to remove you, Astrava would be named in the IR. 

EDIT: nevermind it totally was the one I wasn't there from the start I think, my brain is so tangled with recent cancer rounds as Captain where I have no time to my brain that it's either one or the other. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Lmwevil

[Camellia]

Back so I'll respond;

11 hours ago, Lmwevil said:

Astrava investigated as best she could while also handling other violent crisis at the time, and even got forensics despite them not wanting to help you to check out that book. Nobody you quoted to call out Sue on what they said could be acted upon because it wasn't recorded nor anyone else confirming your story. Unfortunately a she said he said is NOT something that could be charged on, however honest I knew you were oocly being. At no point did Astrava order investigations into you or actually do anything against the DPRA consular other than be briefed on the bug and to that she even verbally responded 'I mean if it stays in their office.' apathetically. 

Oh, okay, that makes more sense, see my complaint here was more so;
Hey, the situation was resolved, now I'm asking for you to go to people because, as mentioned earlier, antag influences preventing others from offering a testimony to you, that's why I asked for you to talk to them or at least organize someone to talk to them because I had the HoP straight up walk away and seemingly avoid me after I tried talking to them, they were told they were "busy" with, from what I was told after talking to CCIA who answered the fax, faxing central, again, about me, or getting a fax from central, I never got a verdict on that.

11 hours ago, Lmwevil said:

If the round was longer after that forensic detail came back, it would have been handled accordingly. Reminder that Captain has a lot of shit to handle and this was NOT an extended round, if I recall correctly it was actually a bit of a cluster fuck. I apologise if you wanted better responses but my hands were tied from the moment I joined to the moment I left. To re-iterate the only thing I had been doing is READING the faxes my heads were sending since I wanted to be clued in, at no point did my stamp, verbal permission or signature cross a single form involved. 

Oh I know, I'm not trying to blame you, it was just very frustrating that I was being held against for not having a witness testify, even though I explained that some person bit them and they've been disrupted since, that's why I asked you to intervene after the threat was resolved, near the vault if you remember but you refused to even get someone to collect the witnesses, hence why I took qualms with command conduct

moving on;

12 hours ago, Lemei said:

You can quote the regulation at me, but that's exactly what we did. You were not arrested, not questioned, and not dealt with by command until we heard from CC as to what to do - something the entire command staff had agreed upon prior.

You are right, my character was not questioned or arrested but I do cite one of the rules of IRs, that being you have to make an attempt to resolve the situation, instead of communicating with the character to get intent, you shot first and faxed central. It's comparable to constantly faxing central to confirm a Merc antag gimmick is "from the company" to get a chance to get them in trouble ic, your supposed to work with people as a member of the command staff member, you shot first and put your own intent into the fax instead of communicating with those affected. 

 

12 hours ago, Lemei said:

When instructions were given, they were stuck to. From my perspective, this was not a minor thing. You can say you placed one bug, but how was I supposed to know that IC? All Evelyn is aware of is that someone outside of NT has come onto their station, bugged a public space to spy on folks - politically motivated or not - and has expressed dislike toward the holidays. She has no reason to ask for a polite chat when she has a potential spy. Especially not when I'm dealing with multiple vampire attacks. You can mention it being oh so awful if NT finds out they have political unrest aboard their station, but do you really think they'd be happy your character was spying on them? That sounds considerably worse than anything else.

Once more;

I feel like assuming the worse is again, a poor act on being a command staff member, you directly influence the round so just assuming the worse here to fax central to revoke diplomatic privilege's is really abrasive move when the entire thing could've been spoken about in character in her office. DPRA consulars exist to ensure that the rights of Tajara are enforced and Al'mariist views are upheld, that is the intent behind the bugs, spying on NT itself would've been self antagging which wasn't my goal, my goal was to ensure no one is betraying the Al'mariist State on the Holiday of their enemy, this is basically why we are given surveilance devices.

 

12 hours ago, Lemei said:

- From what I'm gathering, your entire complaint towards me seems based on how I refused some witness thing, which - as the logs will show - I never was even aware of, let alone put my foot down for. Again, why did you not talk to the HoP as I asked you to do, due to the fact I was busy? I made it clear I'd back their decision, whatever it was. If I had actively antagonised you, or if it was extended and I wasn't busy, or if Eve had decided to just kick down the doors, sure, I can see an OOC problem there. Yet none of those things happened. 

My character had attempted to, numerous times, my character yelled for the Captain, we spoke, we sorted it out, she wanted time, I asked again, got(?) no response and then I found the Captain by the vault after the situation was resolved. So again, I vividly remember asking for someone to resolve my situation, both before and after the situation. I had also sworn that you'd back the decision of the Captain, not the Hop though maybe, I'm remembering it incorrectly but I do remember the HoP being in the room as well.

You say kick down the doors but I vividly remember being by diplomatic reception, opening the doors and stopping before the security department, in the door way, I asked for you over say, then over command radio and you said "busy!" when you went over to.. Somewhere, presumably to collect the fax.
 

12 hours ago, Lemei said:

- By the time the vampire threat had been fully dealt with - which was quite late into the round - the Captain was about, and it was therefor their prerogative as to what they wanted to do. I had no input passed that, so whatever the issues there, I do not believe they fall on my shoulders. My character was not asked her thoughts, notified, or any such anything until we spoke in in the brig, at which point Evelyn consented to having the forensic tech help out. Which, to my opinion, was the only thing I'd explicitly had asked that I could reasonably deal with up until then.  The fact that the Captain told you she didn't care is not something I was aware of, or can change.  

 

That's fair enough, again, my issue was that I remember going to you previously, once the situation was resolved, you told me you were busy, okay, and then you never made any attempt to communicate with me, up until I requested the FT to be with me to ensure there was no foul play involved.

12 hours ago, Lemei said:

- Again, your character was under investigation, followed by talking to C-C.  There are IC consequences for IC actions. I was contacted by one of the CCIA agents to discuss making an IR with their blessing, due to the fact the situation was not resolved on station. Mostly due to time constraints. Getting replies took us right up to the transfer mark, at which point was too late.

Again, let us put it in context of my character being an antag, would it be an engaging story to attempt to deal with a diplomat antagonist by just constantly communicating with people that can destroy the round in one piece of paper? No, it wouldn't be, it'd destroy the gimmick and the antag would likely ahelp you for rushing central, instead of requesting the local ISD or anything similar. You, yourself, said its "CBT" to engage with diplomats, and your expected to deal with difficult scenarios but instead, you just faxed instead of communicating with the consular in question.

Except I wasn't an antagonist, I was a simple diplomat who felt like she was insulted and being harassed.

 

13 hours ago, Lemei said:

- Overall, I feel this is an IC issue to a T. I did not do anything malicious towards you OOC, and IRs are not punishments. Evelyn is a human, played as if she is utterly awful at politics and subtlety, and had no desire to get wrangled up in what could be a pretty nasty situation. I had no way to know if you had one bug, multiple, or what your motive was, and asking you just offers time for the destruction of evidence, which is something she has dealt with through the previous Tajara arcs, or her saying something stupid and getting into trouble. There is no trust there, no pre-built character relationship. Nothing. Likewise, the fact that this complaint has popped up after an IR speaks volumes to me, that otherwise there would have been no complaint. If there was an OOC issue to how I was playing, did you ahelp at all? Why was there no complaint previously? Why, when it was discussed in said discord, did you not mention it was problem? All in all, this situation should never have taken place, and  I struggle to see why an assumedly politically savvy diplomat would risk so much to bug a lowkey station in the middle of the holidays.

The issue is that it's your job to communicate. The reason why there was no ahelp was because I had no idea why or what was going on and I thought everything going on was fine conduct wise, just that command was busy with letting people know about the vampire situation, though after talking about it with people and being told what was done behind the scenes, I felt that wasn't a good play with other characters as a command staff member.

Originally, I was fine with the whole thing because I thought, again, everyone was acting within ooc regulation, and then I spoke to people, I dwelled on what I was told, I spoke to a few more people about it and my opinion changed on the whole case, being advised that I should make the complaint because it wasn't just an ic problem, command staff refusing to communicate is more so an ooc one, from what I was told, hence the complaint being made now and why that wasn't made earlier.

13 hours ago, Lemei said:

and  I struggle to see why an assumedly politically savvy diplomat would risk so much to bug a lowkey station in the middle of the holidays.

and that just reinforces my point, the bug shouldn't have been out in the chair, it should've been along the middle of the table yet for some reason it was on another tile, another tile I couldn't been able to reach.

I'll now be talking to Cnaym now, because I've been holding him up for a few days while also having some IRL situations to deal with as well.

[Susan]

This will be my final post here; I feel like this thread is being very circular.

Ultimately, I don't know who you spoke to, but the supposition we needed to involve you in an investigation involving yourself, and a fragile diplomatic incident at that, is very wrong. You were purposely not informed to keep things above board, the evidence gathered was verified by three independent parties and maintained for the Odin to even check a fourth time to prevent any misconceptions of foul play, and if you want to get technical - I am the one who found the bug, and would have followed the IR, and I followed the regulation to a T. I attempted to resolve it in-round and reported it to my superior, who, with the other command team, voted to contact Central for guidance, as they should, because there is no way for us to compel you to comply with stationside security. 

Talking to you would not have changed anything. Fundamentally, it does not matter why you bugged the bar. 'I did it to spy on my own people instead of the company at the good-will event of another nation I am locked in a cold war with' is no less palatable than 'I did it to spy on the company'. And even then, the bug is not the core issue of the IR in question, which is more concerned with your character consciously producing a serious diplomatic incident by taking supplies sent to the company by the Republic as a good faith gesture and in celebration of their relationship, trashing them, and then trying to hijack the event as though it was instead the DPRA. This would have ruffled more big-wig's feathers than a bug in a public location. Intent, here, is meaningless.

CC has to be contacted. The 'local ISD' cannot do anything to you. And, even if we assume that the command staff told you about the bug, and you gave them your reasoning, and everything was hunky-dory, there would still be an IR, because I would have filed it had Cnaym not, so we are right back at square one.

Finally, it does not matter that your character would not 'realistically' place a bug there, or so on. The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, this is a game with a roleplay twist. The bug was where it was due to intentional coding mechanics and, to be blunt, your imperfect knowledge of how the game functions. The bug was found. This is how the cookie crumbles. Time and time again it has been pointed out that the bug was a tertiary issue, as the event situation is the major problem here, which you did, by yourself, with no extraneous issues to muddy the waters. Personally, I do not find substance in your suppositions that command did a bad job, or that you needed to be kept informed of an investigation into your own criminal wrongdoing, that Cnaym baited you into an IR, or anything else -

If anything, I am sincerely disappointed that this thread exists because it was another moment of good IC conflict and genuine roleplay that has now transformed and amalgamated into something different, and it appears to me that you are attempting to evade the consequences of your own actions, here. I enjoyed that round, I thought it was fun and engaging and far more interesting than the boring half-cocked antags that went off and did the stereotypical vampire things, but now my enjoyment of that round has been destroyed because it has been turned into some OOC slogfest for no legitimate reason.

All of the time spent in here trying to OOCly explain a witness or this and that or whatever is time that could have been spent giving your side of the story to the CCIA agent investigating the case, instead of trying to have it litigated outside of the realm of IC. No one here did anything as an OOC slight against you, or targeted you, so I fail to see why this is required to be an OOC complaint. You could have told the CCIA agent of your concerns with the Command team's lack of communication, for example. Instead, we are here, going in a circle.

 

[Camellia]

10 hours ago, Susan said:

Ultimately, I don't know who you spoke to, but the supposition we needed to involve you in an investigation involving yourself, and a fragile diplomatic incident at that, is very wrong. You were purposely not informed to keep things above board, the evidence gathered was verified by three independent parties and maintained for the Odin to even check a fourth time to prevent any misconceptions of foul play, and if you want to get technical - I am the one who found the bug, and would have followed the IR, and I followed the regulation to a T. I attempted to resolve it in-round and reported it to my superior, who, with the other command team, voted to contact Central for guidance, as they should, because there is no way for us to compel you to comply with stationside security. 

Not being purposefully informed about something and going to fax central, instead of resolving it on station with the character is a poor play on the Command Staffs part and I suppose you as well. Having a shoot first and ask questions later approach only makes things worse, this is why your expected to communicate. If there is a merc and you see them and they have one small thing sketchy about them, would you shoot them? No, it's an improper act of escalation, this is why this complaint is also against members of the command staff as well.

You would've and I wouldn't have contested the bug, somehow, being in a place where it shouldn't have been, it doesn't change anything. I vividly remember stating that I don't care about the IR originally, that was because I felt, on an ooc level that everything was fine, but after dwelling on it with others to further verify and hearing their opinions, I made this player report because of the lines;

>Seeing how the originals went missing this one left his own copy at the consulars office so they could at least enjoy the scripture by our donators for themself.

>He did not want to cause a political issue by saying that he brought it to their office so he claimed to have lost it and some other crewmember must have then delivered it to the office of the consular.

Because by enabling the scenario, he used it in his IR to use said scenario against me and the IR system shouldn't be used by this, moving on,

10 hours ago, Susan said:

Talking to you would not have changed anything. Fundamentally, it does not matter why you bugged the bar. 'I did it to spy on my own people instead of the company at the good-will event of another nation I am locked in a cold war with' is no less palatable than 'I did it to spy on the company'. And even then, the bug is not the core issue of the IR in question, which is more concerned with your character consciously producing a serious diplomatic incident by taking supplies sent to the company by the Republic as a good faith gesture and in celebration of their relationship, trashing them, and then trying to hijack the event as though it was instead the DPRA. This would have ruffled more big-wig's feathers than a bug in a public location. Intent, here, is meaningless.

As I said, my character had reasons to do the things she did, it is a DPRA consular during a celebration day, moving books is something that could've easily been handled ic, the bug was completely unrelated to do anything against the PRA. It certainly is believable act that my character took offence to, I didn't blow up anything or shoot anyone that round, it was something minor (I did in front of an admin, mind you) that wasn't directly effecting the round and you, yourself, found the whole plotline interesting. What I had done was small and at most, an inconvenience at best, now Cnaym, willingly placing a book, refusing to tell the truth and enabling an incident that he used against my character is where I draw the line, IR's are not supposed to be done like this and I find it an act of utter bad faith, I will also remark that my goal is to assist Liberation Army personnel out on the field, it would be against my character/faction so I did something small and believable and just moved books and planted bugs to ensure there is no one going against the Al'mariist State and I got no bwoinks about it. 

10 hours ago, Susan said:

CC has to be contacted. The 'local ISD' cannot do anything to you. And, even if we assume that the command staff told you about the bug, and you gave them your reasoning, and everything was hunky-dory, there would still be an IR, because I would have filed it had Cnaym not, so we are right back at square one.

The ISD certainly can do something to me, as well as the Captain, as cited in Directive Twelve, medium to high level infractions are when you contact CC, this was at most hooliganism and is a gross overreaction and this is something that could be resolved ic, instead, command immediately shot for removing privilege's over an invasion of privacy, at no point did command staff bother to talk to my character, which is, again, another reason why I made this report as well. You making the IR would've changed a lot, the only thing I would've contested was the bug being found.

10 hours ago, Susan said:

Finally, it does not matter that your character would not 'realistically' place a bug there, or so on. The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, this is a game with a roleplay twist. The bug was where it was due to intentional coding mechanics and, to be blunt, your imperfect knowledge of how the game functions. The bug was found. This is how the cookie crumbles. Time and time again it has been pointed out that the bug was a tertiary issue, as the event situation is the major problem here, which you did, by yourself, with no extraneous issues to muddy the waters. Personally, I do not find substance in your suppositions that command did a bad job, or that you needed to be kept informed of an investigation into your own criminal wrongdoing, that Cnaym baited you into an IR, or anything else -

Once more, the only part, originally, I would've contested would've been the bug being found, I would've been fine to accept the consequence, had however, the Command Staff handled this situation originally. I will also state that there is a reason why the role, such as Detective exists, your supposed to question people and communicate with characters because were here to roleplay, let us again, place this in the situation where I was an antagonist, would it be acceptable to not even interact with the character and put them on arrest when they hadn't attacked anyone? No, of course not.

10 hours ago, Susan said:

If anything, I am sincerely disappointed that this thread exists because it was another moment of good IC conflict and genuine roleplay that has now transformed and amalgamated into something different, and it appears to me that you are attempting to evade the consequences of your own actions, here. I enjoyed that round, I thought it was fun and engaging and far more interesting than the boring half-cocked antags that went off and did the stereotypical vampire things, but now my enjoyment of that round has been destroyed because it has been turned into some OOC slogfest for no legitimate reason.

I actually was willing to go with this entire scenario, I've said this numerous times to other people involved over DMs but once I was aware of possible foul play/bad conduct, I made this thread to complain about it because enabling a rulebreak is not an acceptable thing I should enable. I don't appreciate that your attempting to accuse me of evading consequences when I said numerous times that I was willing to accept the IR, on everything but the bug and now, the fact Cnaym caused a scenario, targeted at my character directly, and used the fallout of that scenario to add it to his IR against my character.

Had you filed it, I wouldn't have cared, but I don't appreciate the accusations here and I'm more than willing to ask others to testify about me saying I'd accept the IR, outside of the bug (and now the, the aforementioned fuel Cnaym willingly created)
I do I agree over IRing someone over moved books? Partially, I feel It's petty and a waste of time I feel but I took that consequence, in accordance with the believable views of my character and goal as a DPRA consular.

and, to close this off;

11 hours ago, Susan said:

All of the time spent in here trying to OOCly explain a witness or this and that or whatever is time that could have been spent giving your side of the story to the CCIA agent investigating the case, instead of trying to have it litigated outside of the realm of IC. No one here did anything as an OOC slight against you, or targeted you, so I fail to see why this is required to be an OOC complaint. You could have told the CCIA agent of your concerns with the Command team's lack of communication, for example. Instead, we are here, going in a circle.

I don't have anything against Cnaym, I do, however, have issues when someone willingly enables a scenario and misuses the IR system, I had spoken to a few people and the conscious was that I should contact the person handling the IR which, led me to here, there is some other stuff I was aware of and I've consulted people about it, hence the IR.

Once more, and to make it abundantly clear, I do not have any issues with you, Sue. I've willingly made sure I was transparent with you and be respectful with you, I think you know that really well after that post on my deputy application. I just take offense to how things were handled and I very much apologize if there were any perceived insults in my thread, it was not my intent, I was just trying to explain it all, I do my best to be respectful of others and to act lawfully and I feel like people in this community know that because when I've messed up, I've owed up to it.

With that post out of the way, I'll be discussing with whoever about Cnayms responses.

[Cnaym]

4 minutes ago, Camellia said:

>Seeing how the originals went missing this one left his own copy at the consulars office so they could at least enjoy the scripture by our donators for themself.

Tamir admitting to doing it.

5 minutes ago, Camellia said:

>He did not want to cause a political issue by saying that he brought it to their office so he claimed to have lost it and some other crewmember must have then delivered it to the office of the consular.

Tamir admitting to why he did not just say it during the round.

5 minutes ago, Camellia said:

With that post out of the way, I'll be discussing with whoever about Cnayms responses.

So you make a player complaint about me, ignore my response and want to have it handled in DMs with Abo or ShesTrying. Works for me.

8 minutes ago, Camellia said:

..., but after dwelling on it with others to further verify and hearing their opinions, I made this player report because of the lines;

Hi "others", my DMs are also open if you wish to discuss something or share your opinions. I still struggle to understand how we came to this complaint so if it was a group effort feel free to let me know.

[Susan]

 

9 minutes ago, Camellia said:

Once more, and to make it abundantly clear, I do not have any issues with you, Sue. I've willingly made sure I was transparent with you and be respectful with you, I think you know that really well after that post on my deputy application. 

My last input here is going to be to simply say - I do not have an issue with you, either. I simply disagree with your outlook on this situation, and do not find substance in the complaint. I understand why you take issue with it,  but that does not mean that I find the issue you have substantial. We merely disagree, and I want to be clear my argument is not an attack on you personally.

I've provided my side of the round, and what occurred, so unless admins have any other questions, I've nothing more to add.

[Faris]

Let’s avoid circular discussions unless there’s new information to be brought. My understanding is that the different sides aren’t likely to agree on anything currently so any discussion will be just repeating the same points. 

[Faris]

@ShesTrying and I are going to break this complaint into different topics as it covers multiple things. 

Issue #1, the placement of the bugging device isn't strictly a bug, and people that weren't there at the time when you made the emote have no way of knowing if this was the intended placement or not. Sprites clipping into other tiles is dependent on where the item itself is placed. If you place it on the border of a tile, then it'll be selected in the adjacent tile it also covers. 

Issue #2, we don't believe command @Lemei @Lmwevil have acted improperly throughout the round. From what I see, they were dealt with a potential serious infraction and had no way of knowing for sure if there was only a single bug. The station being a secure research facility means that attempts at surveillance can potentially be considered espionage against the company. Security/Command investigations are not obligated to immediately establish dialogue with offending parties, even if they are consular. Add to the fact that this seemed to have been a hectic vampire round, it feels like command did what they thought was the most ideal course of action from their perspective. It might've not been ideal to @Camellia perspective but I don't see malice or bad command play, just a very chaotic round with a lot of things happening. Combing through 11,885 lines of logs proved it was chaotic.

Issue #3, @Cnaym in the future I would caution you against sending links of an IR to people, just because it's an In-Character interaction, does not mean people like or support it, especially when their character is listed as an offender. It can be seen as malicious.

Issue #4, we do not believe the IR to be malicious and looking into the events of the round, there seems to be retaliation by two different groups. Insults and provocation by pamphlet from the perspective of one group, spying and provocation by pamphlet from the perspective of another. Given that there was push back from both sides, it could be considered that it was mutual conflict. So unless the IR is discarded due to antagonist involvement by CCIA, it can stay as there's no OOC issue that we have noticed.

Unless any new information is added, this complaint will be treated as resolved in 24 hours.

[Camellia]

No objections here.

I'll just reinforce the point about antag interference with my case handler and hopefully just handle it today.
Again, I just wanna stress, not trying to spy on the company, as that's a bit in antag territory, I was watching to see if people were acting against the state.

 

[Cnaym]

Thank you for clearing up without a doubt that the complaint had no basis to stand on. In my eyes this could all have been avoided with a little benefit of the doubt but it is what it is. All I can offer is that my DMs are still open for everyone, in my entire time in this community I have not blocked a single person and I had worse interactions than this complaint.

[Faris]

As the verdict has been acknowledged and no new information was brought up, I’ll be locking and archiving this.