Remove Security from onstation Antag

[Rushodan]

Okay, very simple suggestion. Make it so nobody in security can be an antag.

I'm guilty of playing antag sec every once in a while and I always make the round kind of miserable for the station, even if it isn't my intention. Nobody has fun when sec gets torn apart from the inside and an inevitable ERT has to be called because security get ruined by people they are supposed to be able to trust. People outside of sec are forced to do what the antag wants or get owned, which again isn't massively fun.

It should have been obvious, but it took me a while to figure out. At the very least the warden should not be able to, but I believe this should extend to the entire department. Even investigations. 

[Peppermint]

I dunno. I'm torn. On one hand, sec antags are one of the few that get off the ground and there's a lot of potential for interesting things. On the other, it usually just devolves into getting shot in the back in the middle of a firefight by someone who emptied the armory 20 minutes ago and is now packing all their gear.
 

There are so many factors that add up to sec antag being miserable.  Between  decent starting gear, easy armoury access, and full comms, people would be fine could they be trusted not to abuse it. Unfortunately that often isn't the case so you get rounds where the antag has take every advantage they possibly can before going full TDM without a hint of resistance. Then throw in things like warden antag with no command and it's just a disaster. 

[MattAtlas]

I remember that this was indeed a thing eons ago, but it turned security officer into walking truth tellers that could not OOCly be doubted because they were unable to roll antag.

I'm not opposed to making security unable to be roundstart antag, but I am a bit wary of its effect. 

[Ricky_the_banshee]

19 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

I remember that this was indeed a thing eons ago, but it turned security officer into walking truth tellers that could not OOCly be doubted because they were unable to roll antag.

I'm not opposed to making security unable to be roundstart antag, but I am a bit wary of its effect. 

This.  I think the security antag becomes a more prominent issue when secret rolls (auto)traitor. Lone wolf sec antags will usually wait for openings to fire their teammates in the back, whilst sec wardens will go as far as to prepare a raid on the armory to ensure NOBODY gets any tools to fight them back when the same sec warden engages in instant kill mode.

I'm not sure if cultist and rev should be subjected to the same treatment, since they're based around teamwork and subverting/convincing people to your cause/cult. In that case, sec antags could offer more to a narrative where perhaps they'll try to convince fellow officers to JOIN THE REVOLUTION, or lure them with promises or a trap to add them to their ranks as followers of Nar'sie.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ricky_the_banshee

[N8-Toe]

I like Sec antags. it prevents as others have said of them being these OOC undoubted paragons

 

And as someones who has played recent rounds where a sec antag stomped. I don't see an issue with it. sometimes the crew is going to get whomped by an antag, and at the end the crew is going to out number the traitor five to one. They have options and the ability to plan to handle a guy with a gun.

[niennab]

41 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

I remember that this was indeed a thing eons ago, but it turned security officer into walking truth tellers that could not OOCly be doubted because they were unable to roll antag.

I'm not opposed to making security unable to be roundstart antag, but I am a bit wary of its effect. 

This is precisely the concern I have as well.

I wonder how it would compound as well with Security typically not arresting or charging their own, antag or not.

[Butterrobber202]

I genuinely would be okay with just removing Warden from the antag pool. Their access to a fuckton of weapons is dangerous, and usually results in a hell feast for the rest of the Crew.

[limette]

I'm opposed to this, myself. I think that the OOC paragons of pure trustworthiness issue is a real issue, no matter how much it may be a form of meta. Wardens could probably be restricted because they're kind of just busted, but otherwise I don't think officers need to be removed from the antag pool.

Furthermore, we already have enough of an antag drought - removing more roles would only contribute to the issue of almost nobody being willing to be an antag at the moment so I'm hesitant on that base as well.

[Lmwevil]

bad plan, any time that sec can't be antags leads to much larger issues than just one kinda shitty round. 

if a warden just grabs every gun and starts mass shooting I feel that's like, a staff issue not just remove it all right?

[Susan]

I dunno where this 'OOC paragons of trustworthiness' comes from - the crew, in my experience, regularly playing, take any and every opportunity to question or doubt security's motives, traitor or otherwise. Even characters who never enable antagonist. No one ever takes security at face value. A change like this won't alter this.

Security antags are miserable to play against and also deal with. They already have gear that enables them to more easily flatten crewmembers who get in their way with no TC investment.

[Scheveningen]

10 hours ago, niennab said:

This is precisely the concern I have as well.

I wonder how it would compound as well with Security typically not arresting or charging their own, antag or not.

they don't do this commonly right now, it probably wouldn't change a thing.

[Cnaym]

The main issue I see is the round with 2+ traitor sec, would be a lot easier to just limit sec antag slots to 1 or 2 depending on overall department size.

I'd go with one officer or warden and one cadet being able to antag as a hard number for highpop. Lowpop probably has enough to do with one rogue officer.

Wardens taking the entire armory as antag is the no brain move for making a round suck. Never figured why people cannot just play together instead of doing the power moves all the time, but then again my image of most wardens is pretty shaded tbh.

[Omicega]

Warden is the only security role that really needs to go from being eligible for antagonist rolls. There is no real way to deal with one not acting in good faith without throwing it up into an ahelp, and I personally don't have the time or patience to launch into a debate about whether wardens killing the HOS 30 minutes into the round and assuming direct control over the armoury (and by extension the only way you can forcibly remove them, really) is valid play or not. I can think of at least a couple of times I've had other security roles rolling antag contribute to my enjoyment; I can't think of a single time a traitor warden has done anything that wasn't just flat-out infuriating to deal with.

You could say this is just a player issue rather than a mechanics issue -- and it is, to some extent, but given my experience on all three sides of the antag/security/other department triangle during all kinds of loud and quiet rounds, I don't think for a second you can trust the 'average' antagonist player with full access to the station's entire supply of lethals right from the get-go. You can't fix the player issue -- if we could, we could just remove all job restrictions on rolling antag up to and including captain and HOS -- but since we evidently can't trust even command whitelisted players to not abuse their antag-given power and permissions I don't see why a role even more powerful than some traitor command roles would be should get a by ball. I'd much rather see a traitor CMO cut loose than a traitor warden, for example. Don't even get me started on what happens when security rolls more traitors than just the warden themselves, or when the security traitors are totally-not-broken IPCs with surge protection (enjoy handling those in a manner consistent with believable fearRP/IC self preservation, especially with the armoury gone!) Traitor warden is the root cause of a lot of these issues, though; inconsiderate antag players, questionably balanced species, lower pop rounds, and additional antag rolls rolling up in close proximity can all just compound it to the point where you might as well cryo and wait for the ERT.