[Feedback] Prevent Hivebots Spawning Without Armoury Access

[Sparky_hotdog]

I've seen two rounds today where hivebots trigger and one or two security officers are forced to have engineering break them into the armoury, as tacking hivebots without armoury gear is a death sentence, a process which can take 15+ minutes depending on the speed of the engineer. That time leads to the hivebots growing in number, often leading to an undermanned and underequipped security having to handle a larger than average incursion.

Thus what I propose is fairly self explanatory: Hivebots shouldn't spawn without a member of command or a warden being present. Blobs don't spawn without engineering, appendicitis doesn't trigger without people able to perform surgery, so I believe this should fall into the same category.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Gem
Added feedback tag to title.

[GeneralCamo]

This is now a feedback thread for this PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/17182

[ReadThisNamePlz]

This is related to a round that just happened, right? Five people died. This is a Salt PR and I can never support Salt PRs. 

That said, 
I am against this because limiting hazards to having specific requirements leads to a major mitigation of the ability of it being an actual hazard. Hivebots are the only real hazard we have in the random events, and to nerf it by requiring spawn conditions is just... poor? Whenever a hivebot spawns and no one can access the armory, it makes the situation more dire and forces departments to cooperate. Engineering has to break into the Armory, or someone has to get an axe to bust down a door. It raises the stakes a lot, and I personally like that. 
 

[GeneralCamo]

39 minutes ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

Blobs don't spawn without engineering, appendicitis doesn't trigger without people able to perform surgery, so I believe this should fall into the same category.

@ReadThisNamePlz In your opinion, should we remove these existing limitations?

[ReadThisNamePlz]

5 minutes ago, GeneralCamo said:

@ReadThisNamePlz In your opinion, should we remove these existing limitations?

Yes. I didn't even know that those limitations were in place in the first place. I feel like it should really be entirely random. It'll make things way more risky. 

We barely see blobs, I've yet to see appendicitis spawn since freaking 2019, and vines are vines. 

[ReadThisNamePlz]

I'd rather see the pest beams do more damage to hivebots as a solution, rather than limiting their spawn. This makes it a security only event if this goes through. @GeneralCamo

[Flpfs]

Against this PR. Not everything has to be perfect, the crew having to simply make do can generate interesting scenarios and RP. This will lock events even further and make gameplay more boring in the name of comfort.

Regarding the poster's mention of appendicitis, I feel that it does not equate to this because surgery is mechanically locked. Only a surgeon (or doctor role? idk) can remove the appendix and it would be powergamey otherwise. Anyone can pick up a weapon and fight against hivebots.

I agree with the justification about the blob, though. 

 

Maybe, making the events easier if there are no specifically qualified personnel? I feel like this would be a good compromise.

[Sparky_hotdog]

Having thought more on this, I still think these situations are overly dire, but can see the appeal in that. I'm not a fan of having to break the ship apart to get gear, but there are many things I am not a fan of that I will put up with.

Also, I cannot for the life of me find in the code where blob or appendicitis are coded with job requirements, which is leading me to think I dreamt that like a year ago and have believed it to be true ever since. They do also exist for better reasons in hindsight, as I am unaware of any way to handle either without the relevant jobs.

I am also riding off less salt from one round, and more the fact that I've seen the event trigger in these circumstances twice in the last 18 hours. Hivebots are rare usually, though, so poor RNG is probably skewing my view here.

[Melariara]

2 hours ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

We barely see blobs,

We see them all the time though. They should remain triggered by engineers, as no one else can fix the damage they cause, or the atmospheric damage they cause. At low pop, before the restriction was added, blob would devour the entire ship, people were spawning into no atmosphere and dying because it was spreading so far and there was no one to finish it. Entire levels were decimated by them. It was restricting roleplay.

 

2 hours ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

I've yet to see appendicitis spawn since freaking 2019

It happens all the time. The trigger for it is a SURGEON being in the round, and even then, at highpop, it has to compete with other, mundane events (news events, lights and cameras going out, and so on). This should also remain for, as someone stated above, appendix removal is locked behind surgeon and physician only. No one else in medical can remove them, nor would they have the skill to.

 

In regards to the hivebots spawning, they're locked behind a number of people I'm pretty sure. Leave them in. It creates good teamwork, but again, just having them restricted on where they spawn so there's no stupid locations such as inside atmospheric tanks (had to move one of those once), crew armory (twelve hours ago as of writing this post), and other places not everyone can get into.

[Sycmos]

I'm in favor of this for the same reason I was in favor of suspending blob spawns without engineering presence - deadpop and lowpop are disproportionately affected by random events when there are absences in certain departments and players should not have to choose between dealing with a random event they are severely outclassed to deal with versus roleplaying. This is a heavy roleplay server. We should not be punishing players with potentially round-ending scenarios for not playing during highpop.

Set a required Security Officer and Medical presence for hivebot spawns, just as there is a required Engineer presence for blobs.

[La Villa Strangiato]

What kind of roleplay do hivebots generate, though? "Oh no, I got shot 100000 times in the face and I only have my disruptor and now I'm dying and also I'm on fire because fire is bugged". Cool roleplay.

I support this PR.

[Carver]

6 hours ago, ReadThisNamePlz said:

Yes. I didn't even know that those limitations were in place in the first place. I feel like it should really be entirely random. It'll make things way more risky. 

We barely see blobs, I've yet to see appendicitis spawn since freaking 2019, and vines are vines. 

I would heavily disagree because blobs and appendicitis can often be horrid round-enders (for the entire crew, and for individuals respectively) without the appropriate roles to answer them. I would simply leave a round in many cases if these occurred unchecked and no one could do a thing.

[Fluffy]

For the reasons specified by Read and Flpfs, I am also against this change.

For the roleplay PoV, the effect is wider than the character(s) itself that fight and possibly dies to the event.

Hivebots and the likes are threat that anyone can fight: Open or break into one of the two armories, engineering, ops, bridge or CIC to take up/order either a gun/weapon or an emitter, and you can fight the threat.

[Ramke]

A single engineer can take out a hivebot swarm by just placing an emitter tactically, while remaining completely safe while doing so. Security can find ways to find guns, or ask Ops to order some if there's absolutely no way, etc.

I don't see a need for this personally. This would make an already rare, but very fun event already rarer.

The round that prompted this thread was a case of poor planning and execution, which caused the attacking force to die, from my understanding.

[niennab]

I think this or at the very least a similar change would be for the better.

As it stands, hivebots are supposed to spawn with 1 security and 15 players if I understand this right: (https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/10024). If they're not, then it's a bug and needs addressing. Personally I think it would greatly improve people's rounds by simply changing it to warden + 15 players in the same way that appendecitus was resolved by requiring a surgeon on board.

As is, hivebots grow to staggering numbers in such a short period of time and the more they spawn, the more the station risks atmospheric issues which in turn slows addressing the hivebots, while inflating their numbers even more. If not changing the required numbers, then I agree that locations need to be changed. The Horizon isn't the Aurora and is more prone to atmospheric issues simply by design. Bear in mind the absolute lethality that have been added to simple mobs within the last year too.

Excusing engineering or cargo as people who are able to address hivebots, which in itself I don't agree with, would then mean they too should be added to the list of requirements. Not to say that I am in support of it but that this line of thinking stacks on issues of its own. We should not be encouraging other teams to feel as though they can be or are pseudo security and equally we shouldn't be taking away an event from security either. If anything, we should make it more enjoyable.

Edited August 30, 2023 by niennab
wording

[Evandorf]

9 hours ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

What kind of roleplay do hivebots generate, though? "Oh no, I got shot 100000 times in the face and I only have my disruptor and now I'm dying and also I'm on fire because fire is bugged". Cool roleplay.

I support this PR.

Bugs aside, your death can generate RP for others even though it might not be canon.

There’s also the crew armory and ops even if the security armory is unavailable.

[Scheveningen]

5 hours ago, Evandorf said:

There’s also the crew armory and ops even if the security armory is unavailable.

How do you open the crew armory or an operations weapon container without someone with armory access?

Hivebots require at least an engineer with an available engineer with an emitter to destroy the highly lethal beacon (which, if you are unlucky, will cause the infinite fire bug depending on how the server is feeling), and armory equipment in the form of laser rifles or shotguns to mop up the other hivebots. I see no reason why hivebots should not get the trigger exception like other debilitating random events do.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Scheveningen

[hazelmouse]

20 hours ago, Ramke said:

A single engineer can take out a hivebot swarm by just placing an emitter tactically, while remaining completely safe while doing so. Security can find ways to find guns, or ask Ops to order some if there's absolutely no way, etc.

I don't see a need for this personally. This would make an already rare, but very fun event already rarer.

The round that prompted this thread was a case of poor planning and execution, which caused the attacking force to die, from my understanding.

Ditto to this. Hivebots give me as an engineering main a rare chance to coordinate closely with security and medical to solve a problem in which all parties tend to get meaningful gameplay, I don't want them to be limited only to rounds in which the crew has all of the tools to resolve them in exactly the same way every time. I dislike the idea that events should only spawn if the crew has the perfect tools to fight them, it seems dull.

Edited August 31, 2023 by hazelmouse
better wording

[Sycmos]

6 hours ago, hazelmouse said:

Ditto to this. Hivebots give me as an engineering main a rare chance to coordinate closely with security and medical to solve a problem in which all parties tend to get meaningful gameplay, I don't want them to be limited only to rounds in which the crew has all of the tools to resolve them in exactly the same way every time. I dislike the idea that events should only spawn if the crew has the perfect tools to fight them, it seems dull.

This kind of reasoning is selfish in circumstances when the tools to fight hivebots are not available at all. Certain hours of the day for non-American players go without members in key departments, and forcing them into potentially round-ending scenarios because mid and highpop players want a smidge of variety for an otherwise consistently predictable threat is unfair. 

[Sparky_hotdog]

2 hours ago, Sycmos said:

This kind of reasoning is selfish in circumstances when the tools to fight hivebots are not available at all. Certain hours of the day for non-American players go without members in key departments, and forcing them into potentially round-ending scenarios because mid and highpop players want a smidge of variety for an otherwise consistently predictable threat is unfair. 

Ditto this. Even when security has people & gear, Engineering & Medical are still involved, with the former usually providing emitter support to handle the beacon while the latter handle any injuries as one would expect. The only difference without access to the armoury is spending 5 extra minutes breaking in for gear before hand, which personally I don't think constitutes "meaningful gameplay".

[hazelmouse]

19 hours ago, Sycmos said:

This kind of reasoning is selfish in circumstances when the tools to fight hivebots are not available at all. Certain hours of the day for non-American players go without members in key departments, and forcing them into potentially round-ending scenarios because mid and highpop players want a smidge of variety for an otherwise consistently predictable threat is unfair. 

For the record, my perspective is from a non-American and primarily lowpop player. If the current requirement for hivebot spawns is just that there are fifteen players then I can accept there's a chance for appropriate tools to not be present. I wouldn't hate for there to be a requirement for security and engineering, or security and a warden/command, I'm concerned that gating it solely behind a warden or command would largely eliminate hivebots during the hours at which I play.

[Scheveningen]

Well, here's the thing: Hivebots in themselves do not roleplay with you. They shoot you, or blow up next to you, or set you on fire, landing you in medbay and giving you the decent risk of actually just round removing and killing you, because their damage ranges from trickling/bleeding you out, to massive damage over time to being set on fire, to outright facetanking the equivalent of a frag grenade. The only things in a round that truly roleplay are the player-characters. There is this sentiment that though hivebots do not add roleplay, they "generate" roleplay by giving the in-round characters some stressors to deal with, as well as injury or risk of death, and thus would cause some emotional strife within the crew.

To me, that is kind of questionable. Who here plays regularly that does not go, "Oh for fuck's sake" when hivebots pop and everyone must be torn away either from their immediate duties or from roleplay scenes they are enacting with others in order to RUSH DOWN KILL KILL KILL the hivebot beacon and its little buddies or else they multiply to a level that would otherwise become impossible to deal with if they did not do so. With regards to greimorians, hivebots, the blob, the only players that are actually stimulated by these events are those who are AFK lobby sitting or otherwise not actively engaged with the characters or events in the round already.

Personally, I think all the major events are pretty bad. The major event triggers are claimed to be things that give people stuff to do, but even some aspects of my IRL jobs were more engaging than being required to hook up an emitter to kill the blob or the hivebot beacon for the 5th time in a day. People want stuff to do, but is dealing with hivebots or deadly greimorian warriors that can instafrac and poison you anything that people LIKE actually doing?

My subjective standard for killing PVE mobs is that should be a sort of gameloop you should opt into (hey, expeditions!), rather than being subjected onto the entire ship because lole, chaos!!! I am not really trying to disparage people who seem to like dealing with hivebots, though, but I think it is bad that hivebots regularly infest the Horizon and it not being its own game mode, personally. While I think the way of dealing with the forced PVE situation should be a lot harsher than the title of this thread or the PR aims to be, the PR author offered a compromise to both parties, and this is the compromise. The compromise should be taken now so as to not embitter a bunch of players to a not-changing lose-lose situation.

[dessysalta]

3 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

With regards to greimorians, hivebots, the blob, the only players that are actually stimulated by these events are those who are AFK lobby sitting or otherwise not actively engaged with the characters or events in the round already.

I understand it's the norm to RP on the RP server (crazy, right?) but I feel like this is disingenuous as to how hostile events are received. It's our job as security, and by extent the rest of the crew, to ensure the ship does not go up in flames because of a hivebot/greimorian infestation/blob. Security during an extended round very quickly falls into a "let's all get piss drunk at the bar or smoke in the hallway" without conflict, and these events by definition lend greater depth to combat engagements or normal RP. Antagonists are one thing; random events that involve mindless drones or mobs spike a different kind of fear. It's all about the dynamic between being faced with a hostile killing machine (mercenary) and a hostile killing machine that you cannot negotiate with. These things are feared for a reason, don't doubt the amount of roleplay or creative conflict that can arise because of it.

This being said, you could just as reasonably argue that it's like a joke we've heard a thousand times that really isn't that funny anymore. I don't personally feel that way since I still have ~a year of playtime, but I can definitely see where that comes from and I'm with you on that front.

3 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

My subjective standard for killing PVE mobs is that should be a sort of gameloop you should opt into (hey, expeditions!), rather than being subjected onto the entire ship because lole, chaos!!! I am not really trying to disparage people who seem to like dealing with hivebots, though, but I think it is bad that hivebots regularly infest the Horizon and it not being its own game mode, personally.

I like where this is going, but then I feel like this runs the risk of making too many things optional. A lot of people seem to forget they're on an expeditionary vessel to discover one of the rarest materials in the galaxy. It has to be plagued with threats small or big, along the way. If we relegated hivebots, or the blob, or any other large impact random event to different gamemodes, we would be missing the point of working on the SCCV Horizon. It's supposed to be at least some amount of dangerous; you have binding NDAs everywhere, especially for command staff, and there's been plenty of canon events where people really, forever die. The absolute worst case scenario for a ship in the event of a major infestation is you die and have to either respawn, pick a ghost role, or wait for next round.

Plus, in terms of canonicity, character deaths are case-by-case and usually up to the owner of the character save for canon, major events. The only time I could see myself agreeing with this is during said events, because it would piss me off royally to die to a stray hivebot or grem when we're already, like, fighting the Lii'dra or something.

[Scheveningen]

Canonicity doesn't concern me atm because everything goes normally during extended plus you don't have to honor deaths by stupid hivebot/greimorian shit. Hayashi Kuri is the one security character that has died the most to threats like these and I would never insist they have to honor a character death to something as genuinely infuriating, poorly timed and abruptly escalated as Giant-Ass Bug Random Event or Hivebots?! Invasion.

The problem is standard gameflow. The Horizon should be relatively risk-free to let new players learn the controls and not get fucking owned royally by overtuned smart mobs that deal shitloads of damage and continue to attack you until you succumb to braindeath. 3rd parties have less resources and arguably should be the roles for more experienced players to group up together and do silly shit. Greimorians and hivebots spawning on their own and not as an antagonist game-mode centric prompt of the round is griefy and terrible.

[dessysalta]

46 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

The Horizon should be relatively risk-free to let new players learn the controls and not get fucking owned royally by overtuned smart mobs that deal shitloads of damage and continue to attack you until you succumb to braindeath.

Yeah, I'll agree with this 100%.