Prevent Supernatural and Conversion-based Antag Third-Parties from spawning outside of appropriate modes

[Carver]

Per the title. Don't let conversion third parties spawn outside of modes featuring their very same antag role in the crew (Cult for Cultists, and for futureproofing Borer for Borers and Rev for Revs), don't let supernatural third parties spawn outside of supernatural modes (Cult, Vamp).

We have recently had a third party base added (trivially activated by miners or other third parties) that allows for ghost role Cultists, amongst the most powerful and focus-shifting antag types. Once activated, they will have zero issue with overwhelming whoever 'accidentally' visited them and converting them - then going to the Horizon and quickly overwhelming the crew if everything isn't immediately shifted to answer this problem.

There are two main issues that make this a problem compared to other third parties: Firstly, this is an entirely supernatural antagonist type that employs magic and will more or less dumpster any and all grounding that the round might have otherwise held. Secondly, as a conversion mode it is more than capable of quickly getting out of hand to where any other antagonist will be immediately sidelined as the crew HAS to deal with the cult. Had a compelling story going as a traitor or something else? Too bad, the blood wizards are here to brainwash half the crew and gib the other half.

I'd rather see these sorts of absurd third parties not exist at all. Doubly so for conversion-capable roles. But in the context of a cult base spawning during cult (or a vampire coven during vamp or cult, a borer-riddled station during borer, etc.), it would be tolerable.

[Jasorn]

I like the antag off-ship roles, the pirate base has been a good one, cult base is a bit weird though. I think it could be changed to not make them literal cult antags, but just 'cult' ghost roles but they don't get the antag powers of runes and etc. They can be like antagonistic in the sense of "WE'RE WORSHIPING A BLOOD CULT" with all the runes around them, but they functionally are just regular dudes.

[Garnascus]

I think the main issue is it just seems to be showing up every round. I think things like this should be able to spawn outside of their game modes. It makes our setting more cohesive when we treat antagonists as being a part of the universe. 

[Fluffy]

There was actually a bug where this was left as spawn guaranteed every round, this has been fixed in https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/19000 so it should be less common to see now

I can see the argument from Carver on taking the spot away, however perhaps the policy suggestion can be to incorporate the cult site in the gimmick/story? Something like "if there's an antagonist 3rd party ship/site, try to coordinate with them / coordinate with the on-ship antags to come up with a story together"?

[Dreamix]

On 22/04/2024 at 07:10, Garnascus said:

I think the main issue is it just seems to be showing up every round. I think things like this should be able to spawn outside of their game modes. It makes our setting more cohesive when we treat antagonists as being a part of the universe. 

The Cult Base spawning every round was already fixed. It has the same spawn weight as most other sites now, and should not appear more often than others.

 

As for this suggestion... Making it so the Cult Base spawns only if it's cult gamemode, would effectively just revert and remove the Cult Base, as cult is literally never voted or rolled in secret.

This is a salt/kneejerk suggestion after barely even one (1) day of the Cult Base being added, and there was not enough time yet to see it in gameplay to determine if it's nice or if it needs any changes.

Edited April 27 by Arrow768
Removed vote for dismissal

[Carver]

3 hours ago, Jasorn said:

I like the antag off-ship roles, the pirate base has been a good one, cult base is a bit weird though. I think it could be changed to not make them literal cult antags, but just 'cult' ghost roles but they don't get the antag powers of runes and etc. They can be like antagonistic in the sense of "WE'RE WORSHIPING A BLOOD CULT" with all the runes around them, but they functionally are just regular dudes.

Yeah if they weren’t actual, mechanical cultists I’d never have made this thread. I don’t mind seeing a group of crazies, armed with blades and rifles and whatever (who could, in Cult, potentially be useful converts). I do mind them being blood wizards right off the bat. Take away their magic and my complaint is solved as they’re neither supernatural nor conversion antags anymore.

This thread isn’t just about them though so much as futureproofing against other supernaturals and conversion roles being easily introduced into rounds/modes they don’t belong in, without any admin intervention.

[Carver]

4 minutes ago, Dreamix said:

As for this suggestion... Making it so the Cult Base spawns only if it's cult gamemode, would effectively just revert and remove the Cult Base, as cult is literally never voted or rolled in secret.

This is a salt/kneejerk suggestion after barely even one (1) day of the Cult Base being added, and there was not enough time yet to see it in gameplay to determine if it's nice or if it needs any changes.

And for this reason I am voting for dismissal.

Perhaps it’s never rolled with reason. If a mode isn’t liked, why should it be forced upon the crew (and why should it even be possible in extended)? Furthermore why should it bypass the minimum crew population requirements of the very mode itself?
 

I’d consider this ‘the missing feedback thread’ rather than a ‘salt suggestion’, but I appreciate the insult.

[Dreamix]

5 hours ago, Jasorn said:

I like the antag off-ship roles, the pirate base has been a good one, cult base is a bit weird though. I think it could be changed to not make them literal cult antags, but just 'cult' ghost roles but they don't get the antag powers of runes and etc. They can be like antagonistic in the sense of "WE'RE WORSHIPING A BLOOD CULT" with all the runes around them, but they functionally are just regular dudes.

To reiterate - I am not against changing or rebalancing it.

I was thinking (and discussed on discord yesterday), to make the cultists spawn without cult tomes, so they could only use the few mapped in runes (conversion, teleport, sacrifice), and could not create more (so they could not make stuff like stun talismans). I think this would be fine enough.

But I want it stay for a bit as is, see how it is played, and gather more feedback potentially.

[Peppermint]

People from the round were overwhelmingly enjoying it. Right now it's a shiny new toy that people will constantly want to play with. I don't see any issue in it staying the way it is as it makes the overmap actually somewhat dangerous as opposed to a bunch of pirates who aren't really able to fight the horizon. Plus you have to go to it and activate it any way. It doesn't really need nerfs either imo as making it toothless just circles back to the pirate problem.

[Susan]

12 hours ago, Garnascus said:

I think the main issue is it just seems to be showing up every round. I think things like this should be able to spawn outside of their game modes. It makes our setting more cohesive when we treat antagonists as being a part of the universe. 

Cultists should not be treated as part of 'the universe' because they have literal eldritch blood magic and violate the suspension of disbelief, tearing it to shreds. It'd be fine if they were just self-prescribed cultists, like Raskara cultists, that could become violent, but instead they have access to Cult's full kit which is extremely round hijacking because it was designed with an entire gamemode centered around it. I do not want any quasi-canon status afforded to teleporting cult magic.

Edited April 22 by Susan

[Crozarius]

I agree with the broad strokes laid out here; The cultists should not have supernatural powers of an entire gamemode. I agree that it's immersion breaking and annoying.

I like the idea, in general, of offship antagonists being able to aggress the Horizon - so long as those antagonists make sense and remain grounded in the reality of the setting.

As it stands, every round that the cult base spawns (It still feels like nearly every round even after the patch) the cultists massacre whoever triggered them, then fly their ship directly to the Horizon to start ganking people with their very broken OP powers - oftentimes when there are no, or very few Security team present due to the server population being a bit weak.

It feels somewhat deliberate that they're coming to the Horizon nearly every round looking, essentially, to frag. 

Imagine if the pirates on the abandoned asteroid got a full uplink of TC and combat hardsuits, and every time a nosy BC triggered them, they stole the Intrepid/Canary and flew up to the Horizon to start killing people. That's what it's like having full cult doing this. 

Edited April 23 by Crozarius

[Butterrobber202]

Lore should only be prioritized over gameplay during extended/canon rounds. At any other time, game play and fun should be the priority.

I think the cult ship is ultimately a good idea and a step in the right direction for overmap gameplay. However, they should have an ordinance against heading directly to the Horizon to fuck with people. I'd personally be pleased if off-ship antagonists could only fuck with the Horizon if the Horizon "shoots first" on the interaction. If the Horizon engages with them in RP first, then fine.

On top of that, I do think the cultist ship should have a much rarer spawn value than it currently has.

[Boggle08]

1 hour ago, Butterrobber202 said:

Lore should only be prioritized over gameplay during extended/canon rounds. At any other time, game play and fun should be the priority.

The fact there's no lore that seamlessly facilitates these kinds of modes hurts player investment long term. Coupled with the fact everything in the cultist's toolkit is made to either kill or convert, I really doubt this is going to be fresh and interesting once the novelty's worn off.

Edited April 23 by Boggle08

[Butterrobber202]

5 hours ago, Boggle08 said:

The fact there's no lore that seamlessly facilitates these kinds of modes hurts player investment long term. Coupled with the fact everything in the cultist's toolkit is made to either kill or convert, I really doubt this is going to be fresh and interesting once the novelty's worn off.

There is no long term investment in half our gamemodes, the non-supernatural ones included. You don't get to carry over the happenings of a merc round any more than a cultist round. Antagonists exist to provide tension and engage people. You need them to keep players on the server.

As for the kit comment, most of the mercs kit is designed for killing, converting not existing. The same can be said for most of our current pirate overmap spawns. The point is moot.

 

As I said, the cultist base should be much rarer and have a "do not fire until fired upon" policy when raiding/boarding the Horizon.

[Dreamix]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/19018

PR up with tweaks and rebalance.
This should fix a lot of the potential problems with the cult base, and I think it is a good change.

It's still cult, it uses cult mechanics, and has some supernatural aspects.
But it should not overflow outside of the cult base and take over the round and overpower other ships or horizon.
And hopefully it would encourage more roleplay, and not spamming cult runes.

 

Quote

changes:

• rscadd: "Cult Base cultists spawn without cult books, so they can only use the runes mapped into the map, and can't make more."
• rscadd: "Conversion rune added that does not give the new cultist the cult book."
• rscadd: "Cult Base mapping and ghostspawner tweaks."

REASONING:

having them spawn without cult books means they can only use mapped in runes
which means they can't go out into other ships (or horizon) and spread cult there
can't make stuff like stun talismans
can't make a ton of cult swords and armors and constructs

and so the cult stuff is mostly contained to this site
and outside of the cult base, these cultists are mostly just weird people with bloody clothes
and not really all that supernatural

ghostspawner welcome text and desc is also updated to say they should try to act more covert

 

 

As for it being too common still. Well. Could be fixed by mapping in more away sites, both generic and for current sector.
In TC we have over twice as many third party ships (~17) than away sites (~8).
If we get 3 away sites every round, that means the cult base will show up every third one.

Edited April 23 by Dreamix

[Carver]

11 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

Lore should only be prioritized over gameplay during extended/canon rounds. At any other time, game play and fun should be the priority.

This can spawn and be played during extended. Lore should also be prioritized wholesale, it’s the primary selling point of Aurora (as shown by canon events being the highest player counts we get).

As for a step in the right direction for overmap, I’m waiting on Odyssey for that. Then we can have grounded and potentially dangerous third parties with varying levels of canonicity that can’t get too wacky without an admin or storyteller’s input. Everything about this base currently screams ‘mission briefing material’ to me rather than something that should be on it’s own without a round focus.

[Butterrobber202]

11 hours ago, Carver said:

This can spawn and be played during extended. Lore should also be prioritized wholesale, it’s the primary selling point of Aurora (as shown by canon events being the highest player counts we get).

As for a step in the right direction for overmap, I’m waiting on Odyssey for that. Then we can have grounded and potentially dangerous third parties with varying levels of canonicity that can’t get too wacky without an admin or storyteller’s input. Everything about this base currently screams ‘mission briefing material’ to me rather than something that should be on it’s own without a round focus.

 For the purposes of extended, I could see a good argument supporting the suspension of all antag 3rd party stuff.

As for the rest, lore can not be prioritized 24/7. Its not possible to do so and maintain "realistic" circumstances in and outside the Horizon, while also satisfying the minimum conflict/tension levels to keep people entertained. The Horizon simply can't be attacked by pirates every day in the setting we have created. However, the server won't get by having us not be attacked every day to keep engagement levels going. Those events you reference are absolutely popular, as you say, but its because most of the time, we're combining both tension and the canonical nature of our setting for a special occasion. Any time we have a lore event that does not provide tension or conflict, the lore team is regularly hit with complaints of "boring event, could've been an email."

The core of our setting may be the fact its a living world, but the core of the server is conflict. For that reason, when lore events/extended are not in-progress, gameplay must be prioritized.

[Carver]

12 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

 For the purposes of extended, I could see a good argument supporting the suspension of all antag 3rd party stuff.

As for the rest, lore can not be prioritized 24/7. Its not possible to do so and maintain "realistic" circumstances in and outside the Horizon, while also satisfying the minimum conflict/tension levels to keep people entertained. The Horizon simply can't be attacked by pirates every day in the setting we have created. However, the server won't get by having us not be attacked every day to keep engagement levels going. Those events you reference are absolutely popular, as you say, but its because most of the time, we're combining both tension and the canonical nature of our setting for a special occasion. Any time we have a lore event that does not provide tension or conflict, the lore team is regularly hit with complaints of "boring event, could've been an email."

The core of our setting may be the fact its a living world, but the core of the server is conflict. For that reason, when lore events/extended are not in-progress, gameplay must be prioritized.

Yet both can be met by maintaining a grounded atmosphere even whilst being attacked, no?

[NerdyVampire]

I can see the issues that Carver lays out. The off-ship cultists shouldn't "steal the show" from real antagonists, neither should it bring supernatural activity into an extended round (without admin approval).
That being said, seeing the cultists these recent rounds, the roleplay that is made around and by them, escalations and danger, it has really spiced up the rounds in a good way for me. I really like having off-ship roles that can actually do something dangerous.

I think the right choice here is a compromise. In (voted) extended rounds, they do not get any cult powers as the recent PR is doing. I don't mind them getting those powers in all other rounds, even secret extended, but bring them into the AOOC so they can communicate with the other antagonists  - I don't know if they are automatically right now.

I entirely agree with 

On 24/04/2024 at 16:33, Butterrobber202 said:

The core of our setting may be the fact its a living world, but the core of the server is conflict. For that reason, when lore events/extended are not in-progress, gameplay must be prioritized.

Given the choice, I'd choose to preserve the conflict before the realism, at least when it comes to rounds where extended wasn't explicitly voted.

[Rabid Animal]

There was a brief discussion the other day around just all out preventing 'antag bases' from spawning on extended (or only spawning on extended though I disagree with that) as a compromise for being very round impacting. That seems like a better solution to me than removing their teeth, though taking away their shuttle is also a viable solution; they can easily steal the shuttle of someone who stumbles on their base so.

[N8-Toe]

Few thoughts

1: I think these should spawn on extended, much more so if the current rule of not being able to instigate continues. its extended, go make friends and enemies in space. We should not look at extended and go "yes, lets strip out content in the round type that lacks instant content". As well I feel feeds into an unhealthy attitude of you shouldn't expect things to happen to your character or the ship. If anything, extended is a perfect round type to have interesting and dynamic offships to interact with and RP with.

2: With what I said above. Antag offmaps should have restrictions on just... flying straight to horizon and being diet mercs. but they should be allowed to engage spark/intrepid and such freely. As well be allowed to interact and RP with horizon, even in a confrontational way. If all horizon has to do to keep pirates at bay is just never talk to them on radio so they can't OOC'ly come and interact, people wont play these roles just to exist only for when horizon chooses to grace them on their terms

The offmap is an amazing evolution, and I think we should lean into the crew not being in full "control" of offmap interaction. People said in other threads they wanted more round content not driven by onship antags/mercs? well here it is.

[Rabid Animal]

1 hour ago, N8-Toe said:

1: I think these should spawn on extended, much more so if the current rule of not being able to instigate continues. its extended, go make friends and enemies in space. We should not look at extended and go "yes, lets strip out content in the round type that lacks instant content". As well I feel feeds into an unhealthy attitude of you shouldn't expect things to happen to your character or the ship. If anything, extended is a perfect round type to have interesting and dynamic offships to interact with and RP with.

Just gonna address this since I brought it up;
I don't think anyone is saying that extended should be feature poor or have nothing happen during it. Away missions take time to set up. Science experiments take time to set up. Big projects take time to set up. These ALL get derailed during antag rounds, extended is the perfect opportunity to explore ideas that you normally can't commit to for one reason or another - so having extended become cult or w/e else ruins that, it makes the gamemode pointless. You can have overworld stuff to explore during extended that isn't an outright antag mode tacked on for the hell of it. 

The game is full of features, full of great RP potential, you don't need antags to make fun happen.

[Fluffy]

1 hour ago, Rabid Animal said:

Just gonna address this since I brought it up;
I don't think anyone is saying that extended should be feature poor or have nothing happen during it. Away missions take time to set up. Science experiments take time to set up. Big projects take time to set up. These ALL get derailed during antag rounds, extended is the perfect opportunity to explore ideas that you normally can't commit to for one reason or another - so having extended become cult or w/e else ruins that, it makes the gamemode pointless. You can have overworld stuff to explore during extended that isn't an outright antag mode tacked on for the hell of it. 

The game is full of features, full of great RP potential, you don't need antags to make fun happen.

I think he meant extended as in, secret extended, not as in, voted extended

Secret extended doesn't give you any of that, because the antags during secret usually pop up after an hour of runtime and not uncommonly after that, and that also presumes you'd know they started visibly cooking the gimmick

At the point you are fairly sure it's secret extended, all the materials are gone to do the usual things, noone will generally be interested in coming to an expedition that might not even depart by the time the server restarts, setting up whatever project even assuming there's still mats around risks not even seeing the project happen, and why would you risk making any fancy project anyways when you can be smithed ICly through the CCIA if it goes badly (see: K'ois outbreak, nitronapalm deck fire) or OOCly (see: powergaming for having made a good mech without reason, or super-weapons, super-meds or what have you)?

Most people also vote secret hoping to roll an antag, otherwise, they'd be voting extended, which has no chance of failing to roll compared to voting a specific antag option

So, no, secret extended is the epithome of misery, any change to it, including its removal, would be an improvement over it