Revert the "Stairs are Dangerous" PR

[Acetrea]

I want to preface saying this by first noting that a lot of the dislike comes from players who have to use roller beds or crates often. I understand some people really liked the realism this brought, and on paper it does sound great, but when put into practice by the jobs it affects, this PR becomes a pain in the ass.

So, it's been a month. I want to list out a few things, first being major issues with this PR:

• Not allowing roller beds to traverse stairs adds a large time interval between when a patient is picked up to when they make it to medical. This time-delay issue outweighs the realism of how quickly someone can die. This was seen years ago, when we removed the need to strip someone down to perform surgery because of the time-delay it caused.
• The requirement the PR adds to constantly take elevators when not on the correct deck, usually being deck two for both Medical and Operations, pushes away Medical and Operations players, specifically Paramedics and Miners.

Next are some annoying features that are created from this PR:

• If someone is picked up from Deck Three of Medical, they cannot simply be pulled down the stairs on a roller bed to deck two. They must leave medical, walk down the hallway, pass the holodecks, then wait for the elevator, then once again enter Medical by Engineering. This was attempted to be fixed with a remap, but it looked very awkward and was reverted.
• The bridge, the bar (if you don't go through maintenance, which doesn't happen) and the machine shop storage are all stair-locked. Bringing people and crates out of and into these areas is impossible without the crate breaking open or the person falling off the bed. This was attempted to be fixed with ramps, but they were unsatisfactory and they didn't fit the environment. I don't think a change in sprite would help ramps fit in better.
  • The realism this PR attempts to provide is cancelled out by the amount of Medical players that opt to unbuckle a patient, pull them down the stairs, then rebuckle them. It would be more realistic to just allow roller beds to ICly be advanced enough to move up and down stairs, since we are 442 years in the future.

Overall, this PR causes much frustration and inconvienence specifically to people who use roller-beds and crates.

[La Villa Strangiato]

I was mildly optimistic about this PR, but it quickly became a huge pain in the ass when so much as pulling a crate up a single tile of stair to, say, the xenoarch containment cube causes everything to spill everywhere like you've just sent it down the slopes of Mount Everest. Not to mention that rollerbeds have been safe for stair usage since the... eighties, I believe?

Anyway, it quickly became more of an annoying road bump than a PR to make the cargo elevator usable, so I agree with this post.

[Fluffy]

The pain points outlined can be addressed:

- Crates can be made so they don't explode if they are locked closed, either normal crates or some specific crate to be used for that purpose, or some accessory like the airlock lock but for crates
- The roller bed one is being addressed with https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/19152 by the use of hoverbeds instead, that can be produced, and have the ability to safely traverse stairs

What would be the rationale for a revert, once the crates are adjusted and the above PR is merged?

Edited June 14 by Fluffy

[greenjoe]

There are also possible plans to give first responders/paramedics two hoverbeds, though that is in a PR after the main hoverbed one is merged, as I imagine it would be something to be discussed by maintainers. In addition, hopefully new sprites can be produced for the ramps PR and that can be brought back.

[Crozarius]

I like the realism of the idea, but I admit that I don't move crates or roller beds often. Looking at it, I like the spirit of the idea, but the Horizon just doesn't have the infrastructure to support it. I feel like this should be temporarily reverted while we wait for certain things to be added; Hoverbeds, handcarts, and a couple of medical elevators (I'm CERTAIN that you guys can squeeze in an elevator in there, even if the first one didn't work out. You've got several entire wings of medical which are literally never used!
 
 

[NM_]

Hoverbeds are the proposed solution to a problem that was self-created and didn't exist prior to intentional meddling. The realism isn't there - as pointed out prior - stretchers have been able to go up and down stairs for a long time. It isn't a revolutionary concept that requires hoverbeds, of all things, to solve 400 years later. Much like any realism argument, its an arbitrary enforcement, more ridiculous since it regresses 2466 to have been unable to resolve this dilemma short of anti-gravity equipment.

More-so my point though, its ultimately an unsatisfying and clunky experience that doesn't add any interesting choices for the Paramedic. It is purely an inconvenience in an already cumbersome (if not deadly) scenario. The gameplay loop doesn't need artificial hoops to jump through. There's an entire rework dedicated to a different vision already. Its a net negative.

[Rabid Animal]

This is a case of favouring "realism" over gameplay. Particularly as the "realism" here is misrepresented in assumption that you cannot move objects up and down stairs in life. It's not fun, its an inconvenience, and every solution presented is to solve a self made problem that adds no interesting gameplay and is a chore to work around. Spending resources to 'fix' this is a waste of time when frankly it should just be reverted.

[Sheeplets]

Agree with NM_ and Rabid Animal.

This change is added tedium for no particular reason. It's inconvenient and frustrating to deal with, please revert it.

[Acetrea]

2 hours ago, Fluffy said:

What would be the rationale for a revert, once the crates are adjusted and the above PR is merged?

I think NM_ explains this perfectly: Hoverbeds and lockable crates are a solution to a self-created problem. On top of that, unless there are Scientists and Miners, the only ones getting the Hoverbeds are Paramedics, but it's not uncommon for Physicians and Surgeons to either play Paramedic in their absence, or also be out in the field assisting during bad scenarios. The frustration is still there.

• But then if there are Scientists and Miners, they can make enough of these Hoverbeds to give to everyone in Medical, circumventing this entire PR anyways. Wouldn't the better solution be to revert the PR and not have to spend time coding, bug fixing, and spriting hoverbeds and lockable crates that attempt to fix this PR, like Rabid Animal says?

[BravoBohemia]

My turn to beat the horse I guess, since all the other resident medical mains have chimed in. To put it bluntly, this PR is an annoyance at best and actively detrimental at its absolute worst. As NM, Sheeplets, and Acetrea have all stated, this problem has been self-created in the interest of 'realism' (on a game set in the year 2466) and now we're trying to ham fist in band aid solutions when the easiest option would be to simply remove the problem that was created in the first place. I personally have seen First Responders on no less than seven separate occasions untie a patient from the bed, either drag or fireman carry them down a flight of stairs, then re-tie them to the bed before wheeling them into sickbay rather than stand and wait for an elevator. It's obvious no one is wanting to engage in the mechanics this PR has introduced because they only serve to add unnecessary tedium to a department that is already far too gameplay heavy in a role that is stressful enough as it is without having to worry about sending your patient cartwheeling down the stairs like a deleted scene in Weekend at Bernie's. (This is of course looking at the whole change through a medical lens, I can't speak for box jockeys who play operations)

Put simply, as Sheeplets said, please just revert this PR. No one wanted it, it adds nothing to the game for anyone's benefit, and people are already trying to come up with ways to circumvent it regardless.

[Sneakyranger]

I don't play medical and don't like the stairs PR either. I think that hoverbeds are a stupid overdesigned concept in a setting where Elyran anti-gravity tech is supposed to be cutting edge and even without the Elyra example they are out of place if you look at what else on the Horizon employs such an advanced solution for such a mundane problem (little). The PR would be far more tolerable if intent or move mode affected whether or not you spill your crate contents everywhere; I guarantee you that even a pasty nerd such as I can get a lidded crate up a flight of stairs or down without it exploding given enough caution.

[CatsinHD]

Time to through in my 2 cents as a Paramedic main (which gets the attention from med mains but I don't want the crate issue to go understated). I said this before, but the way the Horizon is designed right now is a literal nightmare for anything that would remotely be difficult to move up and down stairs. The cargo elevators are comically slow, and the solutions are bandaids. But, do I want the PR reverted... eh?

I want essentially what Sneaky has suggested. Make intent (and possibly running) effect whether you get blocked by the stairs or not. Some people might not like this still, and to that I say fair enough, but I feel that letting intent change whether or not you pass the funny stairs would help. We won't need hoverbeds, and crates won't suddenly explode on impact with a raised surface. Oh- and make the cargo elevator faster.

In the end, though, do whatever causes the least issues. It boils down to a change that played a far larger impact than expected, and all of the solutions to fixing it short of reverting require a lot of effort (such as remapping entire departments or hoverbeds and such). It comes to the question of when is it worth it. When is it worth it to add in ramps, redesign entire sections of the Horizon, add hoverbeds after a long debate, design X Y and Z solutions as opposed to reverting, perhaps putting in the over to cook longer, or just leaving it at the wayside.

[DrPockets]

Absolutely agree with the earlier assessment "realism over fun". It's just a pain in the ass for everyone who has to deal with crates/roller beds. Bringing stuff between floors of Security, dragging stuff to the bar, between floors of Medical, Operations, etc. is given another step and I don't know who is getting any enjoyment out of it. 

[Dreamix]

I like stairs being dangerous. I like stairs being something more than just a decoration.

What I hate though, is random stairs everywhere, where they make no sense to be. Like the machinist workshop, or the morgue, or the stairs spam on the bridge. There are many examples.

I'd rather have removed a lot of these stairs that make no sense, than to revert stairs being dangerous.

[Fyni]

The ship is not designed to handle "stairs are dangerous." There are far, far too many stairs in areas for aethetics reasons (the bridge, research, machinist workshop, bar etc.) rather than to actually swap decks. Elevators are far too far apart. And I've seen people merely weld crates and lockers, and unweld them when they've finished moving.

I like the PR in theory, but I don't think it is suitible for the Horizon.

[WickedCybs]

It really shone a light on how unfriendly the ship seems to be for anyone who needs a mobility aid to move around, like a wheelchair. The bar is basically inaccessible to them, to name one example. We could remove a lot of the aesthetic stairs and platforms (and probably should either way tbh). That said, things like elevators tend to be pretty far as mentioned earlier and I think the PR has exaggerated things to the point of being unrealistic.

Random thought of the day is that this would have gone over better on the station map I think. 

[Comet Blaze]

I like the idea of stairs being a meaningful obstacle that has to be accounted for, but as it currently is they are less obstacles and more just insurmountable walls which makes you have to go on borderline cartoonish detours (Deck 3 Medbay > Deck 2 Medbay) to get to where you want. I believe the PR goes beyond the limit of being reasonable and although I don't want stairs to go back to being pure fluff, I do believe they need to be tweaked.

I will echo the idea that has been mentioned before about the notion that stairs exploding your crate/patient all over the floor should depend on walking/running, which I believe to be the ideal middle ground that makes stairs something that needs to be considered when planning a route without making it so they must be completely avoided.

[Sparky_hotdog]

I'm in two minds over this. Obviously the realism argument is flawed - Ever since the PR was merged it's been brought up countless times that this technology exists today - but I do think that having to sometimes take a longer route isn't necessarily a bad thing; What is a bad thing is that there are places where there is no alternative route, where there is no option to get a crate or rollerbed to somewhere without going over stairs. That needs addressed, there shouldn't be anywhere that's impossible to reach.

The hoverbed option I think works because it creates a way to solve the slowness problem, provided you have the people to acquire them. The argument can be made that just having people solving a problem negates the problem existing in the first place, but by that logic we should all have power at round start and R&D should start maxed out. If, and this is a big if, the only issue presented by this PR was the longer routes being too slow, I think it'd be an okay solution.

That said, the Horizon needs some significant remodelling to make it accessible enough for hoverbeds to be a nice upgrade rather than a necessity, and so I think I reluctantly agree this should go.

Edited June 14 by Sparky_hotdog
Grammar

[Peppermint]

This feels like vision cones all over again. A change that was made for 'realism' but has very little reason to stay. It makes playing certain characters and roles really tedious.

[Susan]

From another side to this - Forensics - I foresaw this change being a huge pain in the ass, and there was talk of adding a 'hovercrate' for CSI especially, but that didn't pan out. When you have to move a huge quantity of evidence around the ship and the only way to effectively do that is with a crate but you can't get a crate into so many areas it is as infinitely annoying as it is for cargo trying to move things, not to mention rollerbeds and dead bodies.

I don't think it adds anything.

[JeffMomentRed]

11 hours ago, Susan said:

From another side to this - Forensics - I foresaw this change being a huge pain in the ass, and there was talk of adding a 'hovercrate' for CSI especially, but that didn't pan out. When you have to move a huge quantity of evidence around the ship and the only way to effectively do that is with a crate but you can't get a crate into so many areas it is as infinitely annoying as it is for cargo trying to move things, not to mention rollerbeds and dead bodies.

I don't think it adds anything.

Machinist Workshop is also horrific to navigate, especially with someone who is rollerbed bound. Yeah the stairs in the Machinist Bay look cool and are aesthetically pleasing, but they were added specifically for that visual appeal, before this PR was implemented. Yeah I'll just drag this IPC who can't stand on their own up two different sets of stairs. 

Please reverse this PR at least until there are items to circumnavigate it which are easily accessible to each department, or get rid of it entirely. 

Additionally, roller-beds( cots/stretchers ) have been able to go up and down stairs for far longer than SS13 has been out. 

[ATGiltspire]

I also want to point out... If you are a consular who has a missing leg or other movement disability, you're locked out of your office, pretty much. There is no way to get to the office without dragging yourself up the stairs. This kind of shuts down the entire new ruling allowing consulars and representatives to have disabilities.

[Yonnimer]

I don't really understand the point of the initial pr outside of just making medical more tedious to play. Rollers going up stairs has never been a problem in the years i've been on the server, the stretchers IRL paramedics use to transport people are designed to go up and down stairs specifically to avoid the issues we're having on server. There's no excuse that it's "realistic" when it's not, there's no reason the company would issue such ineffective rollers like this when we've have had the technology for centuries for something so basic.

The PR should just be reverted, this isn't fun to have to deal with and there's no excuse for it.

[Jasorn]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/19484

 

edit: just noticed the pull number is very close to "1984" lol

Edited June 18 by Jasorn

[FlamingLily]

I think everything I want to say on this topic has been said, except for this:

 

I think it might be worth considering, if we do want stairs to have more of a gameplay purpose beyond just "what if up and down", that running down stairs can make you trip over. That is all,