Revisit the Disability Requirements

[Peppermint]

Asked to make a post about this when mentioning it to matt, so here is said post! 

I feel a lot of the disability requirements were too heavy-handed and a reaction to a server culture that was very different to what it is today, There are a whole bunch of reasons for that but it can be kind of summed up as back then, we had things like deaf security officers and mute engineers -which were both a little bit silly and a massive pain in the ass to play around in departments that really just didn't work in that regard. We also had people doing too many 'sexy' disabilities as if being mute/having communication issues isn't massively isolating from everything from every day life to just hanging out with friends online. I think the server culture is better now and people are, to be blunt, less stupid/desperate to be snowflakes in offensive ways. It didn't help that the community reaction when the guidelines were brought out was really nasty and in a shocking turn of events, being mean to people does not make them want to listen.

I also think the whole 'the SCC is a dystopia, disable people won't be allowed a job!' arguments are a mix of dumb (the average round has no dystopia stuff tbh, I wish we'd just remove this shit) and silly because a disabled character making do within this structure would be much more interesting than not.

There are some other issues I have with it as well, but I'm going to try and break it down to each disability category on the wiki for easier reading as this got quite long. In general role I think a lot of these have the 'worst player ever' in mind and I don't think it's a good approach. The average person on Aurora can be trusted and the problems were going to do something dumb regardless.

There is a lot of RP and character diversity to be had by relaxing some of these I think, balanced by mostly focusing on departments that have no or limited mechanical requirements.

Eyesight

Spoiler

Eyesight

This is probably the one that bothers me the most. In the entire roster of aurora characters, there is one job that allows for blindness, which is chaplain. 'Flawed' is written as anything beyond color blind is probably not okay, which also seems to mean no security officers with eye patches or similar (boo, hiss, this has soul). This is very restrictive and I also think a little bit unfair

. Being blind even in today's world is of course massively difficult and complicates life, but people can still find work in a lot of common areas. We have the technology now to do things like read screens and braille has been around forever, let alone in 400 years in which I would hope further technological allowances can be made and augments are common. I'm pointing this out because previous arguments on this have barred some blind jobs because 'they couldn't read the screen' as if this isn't something we can do now. Even you most basic windows pc has the ability to be used with sight-impairment right up to being legally blind. I think the following should be looked at:

Consular/Liason - There's no reason why a blind consular or liaison would not work. 'They can't read the records' is reductionist as per the above.

Bartender - Same logic. The drinks machine isn't going to be this unwinnable hurdle. It'd be difficult, yes, but given the SCC  will also employ ex-pirates and the odd political terrorist, it's hard to see why they'd draw the line on adding braille. This goes the same for hydroponist which is just growing food for people. Not an impossible to overcome obstacle by any means. If you can be deaf (you can!) and do the role, you should be able to be blind as well. 

Psych - Probably the one that is going to be the most controversial, but I don't think psychs being blind would be that bad. You're generally not expected to do medical work as a psych alone beyond basic first aid (bandaging, injecting, ect) which is pretty doable. A lot of this as 'legally' blind doesn't just mean you see nothing at all, but regardless the average round is not going to require you to do much more than you're already existing and the bare minimum requirement of basic first aid is absolutely doable. A pain in the ass, yes, but it was going to be a pain in the ass to have a lone psych as your medical help any way. I think this one got colored a lot as a while ago there was some asshole being an asshole over wanting to be a blind psych but it's one of the few medical professions blind people are encouraged to go if they want to do medical school.  I'm not saying it's common, but it's not that uncommon either relative to population metrics. They can also already be missing limbs/in a wheelchair, which would be difficult to deal with as well. You probably won't get ahelped for not doing anything beyond the very basics if you're a psych, so I don't think there'd be an issue here.

Bridge Crew: Having flawed vision in piloting is going to exclude you from basically everything even today. Especially in a military setting (we have ship guns). It should likely be perfect vision required as you're a pilot for the SCV Flagshio and might be expected to get into fights. 

Hearing/Communication

Spoiler

Hearing/Communication

One I actually know about. I'm pretty deaf as a lot of my friends know to the point where I have no hearing at all on one side and very, very limited on the other. I'd still be qualified for pretty much every job aurora offers by RL standards, except for security roles (paramedic included as it turns out, I did the test mannyy years ago when considering it as an option). Only a few I think should be looked at though.

Scientist The general scientist role. Especially with phoron research gone, it'd not be that awful. You could make an argument that working with dangerous chemicals means people need to be able to call to you, but again it's not like this is unworkable. You generally don't need to communicate back to folks as much. The other science roles I understand though.

Reporter: The actual role plays more like a 'sit at your desk and interview' people type thing (which the universal recorder deals with) than a war reporter where you're out on the front lines and if your character is someone who would not do the latter, you're not going to negatively impact anyone else. Provided you're able to to communicate to people, I do not believe this one would be hard especially as you don't really have a department. I'm going to add that being mute here would also be fine in the same way it's fine for bartenders and kitchen staff as you really shouldn't be doing anything dangerous.

Hangar Tech: Being a mute hangar tech seems a bit strange since the introduction of weapons. I do think that this role being fine does however highlight that you can get away with a lot more within the confines of disabilities than people might think. I would argue however this one might need to be bumped up now they'll be handling ammo and might need to call for help and communicate with the bridge regarding the guns. Pretty sure this one just hasn't been changed since the job got expanded.

Movement Impairment/Limbs

Spoiler

Movement Impairment/Limbs

Only two here.

Xenobiologist: Being able to be movement impaired when working with the death slimes seems a bit silly in the same way you couldn't work with dangerous zoo animals. I think it should be bumped up.

Scientist: Heavily movement impaired should probably be fine? Same with missing a limb, depending on what you're doing. Especially with the removal of phoron research, I'm not sure much in the day to day life would be affected. It's not the exploration department yet after all.

 

 

 

 

[CatsinHD]

I'm not gonna get too in-depth with my thoughts on this, since buy in large I don't really have too strong of an opinion on whether certain jobs have expanded to restricted requirements. I will go ahead and say that dystopia has nothing to do with this. The issue with the Horizon is that it's a ship, a hazardous environment even in the 2400's. But we're here to play a game and make a character. I mainly have these notes to say:

40 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

Consular/Liason - There's no reason why a blind consular or liaison would not work. 'They can't read the records' is reductionist as per the above.

Consulars/Reps shouldn't be blind. Records are fine, there's probably some functionality for feature narration, but they have to be able to write, send, and receive faxes. We can argue until the cows come home whether faxes can be offered in brail, but writing and sending them is a different ballgame. I have no clue what the difficulties may be with writing blind. I am more than ready to cede my position and support blind reps/consulars if writing while blind is something possible to a degree that you could send it as an official communique.

40 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

'Flawed' is written as anything beyond color blind is probably not okay, which also seems to mean no security officers with eye patches or similar (boo, hiss, this has soul).

Eyesight should receive a new category for partial blindness, I.E. eyepatches. Afaik at the moment, eyepatches are within the flawed category (especially iPatches). But, given the "adequate depth perception" part of that description, I am led to believe eyepatches may be excluded... which doesn't feel right given the next option is blindness.

28 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

Bridge Crew: Having flawed vision in piloting is going to exclude you from basically everything even today. Especially in a military setting (we have ship guns). It should likely be perfect vision required as you're a pilot for the SCV Flagshio[sic] and might be expected to get into fights. 

All of the ships are operated through consoles, since flying by sight in space is... just not gonna work. As long as they can see the console screens, they'd be set. But, it depends, I can see it going either way.

The rest I don't mind or generally support. None of my positions are set in stone, I just have a few concerns that generally prevent complete agreement.

[Peppermint]

5 minutes ago, CatsinHD said:

I'm not gonna get too in-depth with my thoughts on this, since buy in large I don't really have too strong of an opinion on whether certain jobs have expanded to restricted requirements. I will go ahead and say that dystopia has nothing to do with this. The issue with the Horizon is that it's a ship, a hazardous environment even in the 2400's. But we're here to play a game and make a character. I mainly have these notes to say:

Consulars/Reps shouldn't be blind. Records are fine, there's probably some functionality for feature narration, but they have to be able to write, send, and receive faxes. We can argue until the cows come home whether faxes can be offered in brail, but writing and sending them is a different ballgame. I have no clue what the difficulties may be with writing blind. I am more than ready to cede my position and support blind reps/consulars if writing while blind is something possible to a degree that you could send it as an official communique.

Eyesight should receive a new category for partial blindness, I.E. eyepatches. Afaik at the moment, eyepatches are within the flawed category (especially iPatches). But, given the "adequate depth perception" part of that description, I am led to believe eyepatches may be excluded... which doesn't feel right given the next option is blindness.

All of the ships are operated through consoles, since flying by sight in space is... just not gonna work. As long as they can see the console screens, they'd be set. But, it depends, I can see it going either way.

The rest I don't mind or generally support. None of my positions are set in stone, I just have a few concerns that generally prevent complete agreement.

I understand your pov here, I have some thoughts on them though.

Consulars/Reps needing to write is a good point, but my main issue here is that faxes are kind of just an ss-13ism that have persisted. It doesn't make much universal sense so I do not think it should be based around. This is also the kind of thing you could get away with using fluff augments and whilst there's an argument that it would not work due to people in general abusing it, this is a whitelisted role so someone being silly is likely to get slapped. It's one of those 'the RP is beyond the mechanical drawbacks' for me, especially with the goon role able to support it and I'm generally not a fan of 'what about realism' on things like this because they're only the way they are due to how SS13 as a game was developed.

I agree on the eye patch. It's a strange grey area that gets brought up due to the depth of vision thing. I don't think anyone has actually been told off for it, but I'm also pretty sure it's rare because of that wording. A degree between (where consulars could then also go) would be nice. I have  the same thoughts for hearing but tbh it's less needed as it's less prevalent.

For bridgecrew the pilot thing might be a bad comparison then, but ACT would be a better one. Which you also need perfect vision for as best I understand - it's less that 'nobody could ever do this job' and more than on average, having someone fly and land big shuttles with eyesight issues is a muuuuch bigger risk than a lot of my other suggestions would be.

[Fluffy]

I don't think this would be a good change for the downgrade requirement points, the setting is a corporate dystopia (even if it doesn't show up in everyday play, which is an issue, but more of a "we should lean into it more" kind of way) and we're on the flagship of the SCC, any role that would have any relevance in the ship operations would not logically have much reason to have characters that could perform it subpar (why would the SCC want to staff them in the flagship of all places?)

 

I can concede the barman being afforded more disabilities, or the chaplain, those don't realistically have anything to do with any foreseeable situation that could be encountered by the ship

 

Bridge Crew is a straight up no from me, pilots need a perfect eyesight and reaction time to pilot the ship (which is done via screens just because that's the main way to interact with the game mechanics of this kind), they'd need to be able to quickly read the sensors data, run identifications on other ships, see the bullets incoming and do the evasions manouvers quickly, see where they're landing, see what they're aiming the ship guns / shooting at, be the eyes for the captain in away missions and so on

Psychiatrists need to see the patient to perform an accurate assessment, with most of the communication being non verbal, and part of the assessment being centered around identifying signs for pathologies (how the patient presents), the ability to see well is perhaps the second most important one behind speaking

Consular/Liasons could be worked on, I'm not sure on why they would be staffed in the dystopian corporation flagship to represent a faction/corp however, ontop of what Cats said

A reporter needs to interview people, talk to them, talk about the situation over comms and now also live with the reporter camera, likewise for the other points, being mute in the flagship that is sent to do the important things you're supposed to report onto wouldn't make much sense either

I'm conflicted about scientists, primarily because they can do a lot of different things, and having the Telescientist that teleports into the unknown in a wheelchair or while missing a limb doesn't sound that much of a good idea

[CatsinHD]

40 minutes ago, Fluffy said:

(which is done via screens just because that's the main way to interact with the game mechanics of this kind),

I am actually going to HARD disagree here. Landing and in-atmosphere operations can certainly require vision out of a viewing port, however operating within space itself is very much reliant on computers and screens because of the relativity of everything. Space is incredibly massive. Unless you are within spitting distance of another ship (which is not very safe unless you're landing or docking), you are likely not going to be able to see them with near enough detail. That is why I focus on the consoles, because the ship sensors and flight controls can see FAR more than what you can. This is already a fact of life for current space flight. BUT, vision is necessary for landing, docking, and arguably reading flight equipment, so it doesn't matter in the end. BCs having perfect vision is a better choice.

1 hour ago, Peppermint said:

faxes are kind of just an ss-13ism that have persisted.

Fortunately or unfortunately, they're something that are also ICly entrenched. If/when it gets reflavored as some other system, I'd be up for changing the requirements, but as it stands I'm still not a fan.

[Peppermint]

1 hour ago, Fluffy said:

I don't think this would be a good change for the downgrade requirement points, the setting is a corporate dystopia (even if it doesn't show up in everyday play, which is an issue, but more of a "we should lean into it more" kind of way) and we're on the flagship of the SCC, any role that would have any relevance in the ship operations would not logically have much reason to have characters that could perform it subpar (why would the SCC want to staff them in the flagship of all places?)

 

I can concede the barman being afforded more disabilities, or the chaplain, those don't realistically have anything to do with any foreseeable situation that could be encountered by the ship

 

Bridge Crew is a straight up no from me, pilots need a perfect eyesight and reaction time to pilot the ship (which is done via screens just because that's the main way to interact with the game mechanics of this kind), they'd need to be able to quickly read the sensors data, run identifications on other ships, see the bullets incoming and do the evasions manouvers quickly, see where they're landing, see what they're aiming the ship guns / shooting at, be the eyes for the captain in away missions and so on

Psychiatrists need to see the patient to perform an accurate assessment, with most of the communication being non verbal, and part of the assessment being centered around identifying signs for pathologies (how the patient presents), the ability to see well is perhaps the second most important one behind speaking

Consular/Liasons could be worked on, I'm not sure on why they would be staffed in the dystopian corporation flagship to represent a faction/corp however, ontop of what Cats said

A reporter needs to interview people, talk to them, talk about the situation over comms and now also live with the reporter camera, likewise for the other points, being mute in the flagship that is sent to do the important things you're supposed to report onto wouldn't make much sense either

I'm conflicted about scientists, primarily because they can do a lot of different things, and having the Telescientist that teleports into the unknown in a wheelchair or while missing a limb doesn't sound that much of a good idea

I'm not super following on the bridge crew, as I'm wanting them given more restrictions, not less.

Corporate/Liason I think is fine for the reasons I've given. We're also not in a corpy-dystopia setting and unless massive staff/server changes push it, it's not really reflected on ship.

Don't agree with reporter. You can absolutely just take the story down via PDA or something. it's such an unused job that it wouldn't really affect anything, same way a blind psych isn't going to negatively impact anyone. Likewise as I said, it's one of those medial roles you do get blind being doing given doctoring is generally not as doable (there are examples, but I feel those are too unique to really warrant a change on the ship too).

If a telecientist without limbs in a chair does dumb things, I'd argue it's the same as them doing it without a voidsuit - probs an ahelp.

[Garnascus]

The thing to keep in mind here is that the current document regarding how able bodied your character must be is the result of EXHAUSTIVE discussion, iteration and debate. Overall policy has shifted this way and that over the years. Regardless of where the pendulum swung there was always a portion of people dissatisfied with it. Most staff members have personal anecdotes of having to deal with a frustrating case of a particular character toeing the line or pushing a good faith boundary with a disability. 

Expanding or restricting disabilities is TECHNICALLY easier to do nowadays since we have fancy charts. I think the best things to consider when doing this is "Does this allow interesting characters to be made" and "is this consistent with a heavy RP setting" with hopefully a fine balance between the two. 

[Fluffy]

19 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

I'm not super following on the bridge crew, as I'm wanting them given more restrictions, not less.

Then I misunderstood the phrase, I thought you wanted to give them the ability to have flawed vision; my apologies

 

19 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

We're also not in a corpy-dystopia setting and unless massive staff/server changes push it, it's not really reflected on ship.

I think we are, it's just not really well represented in the day to day; lore wise, corporations control governments, we have essentially slaves (eridani, not to mention IPCs), we borg people extrajudicially, the SCC sends civilians to fight battles and even wars for them, I consider it fairly indicative of a dystopian setting, even if it's not very much reflected ingame

 

44 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

Don't agree with reporter. You can absolutely just take the story down via PDA or something. it's such an unused job that it wouldn't really affect anything, same way a blind psych isn't going to negatively impact anyone. Likewise as I said, it's one of those medial roles you do get blind being doing given doctoring is generally not as doable (there are examples, but I feel those are too unique to really warrant a change on the ship too).

I mean, you can do almost anything given enough time, but you'd be expected to make the stories live etc. and why would the SCC staff you in the flagship, of all places, if you can't be completely effective at that? They'd just send someone else - this wouldn't be much of a problem if it was some rundown station noone supposedly cared about, but it's the flagship, that's like putting your "scraping the barrel qualified" navy soldiers in your best ship

 

52 minutes ago, Peppermint said:

If a telecientist without limbs in a chair does dumb things, I'd argue it's the same as them doing it without a voidsuit - probs an ahelp

The difference is that it's your job and you can't change it ingame, not putting on a voidsuit when you go into the teleport is a player's dumb choice, your character being allowed to be there in regulations with a disability means you have the goodwill of performing your job with it, and that includes telescience and the likes

 

1 hour ago, CatsinHD said:

I am actually going to HARD disagree here. Landing and in-atmosphere operations can certainly require vision out of a viewing port, however operating within space itself is very much reliant on computers and screens because of the relativity of everything. Space is incredibly massive. Unless you are within spitting distance of another ship (which is not very safe unless you're landing or docking), you are likely not going to be able to see them with near enough detail. That is why I focus on the consoles, because the ship sensors and flight controls can see FAR more than what you can. This is already a fact of life for current space flight. BUT, vision is necessary for landing, docking, and arguably reading flight equipment, so it doesn't matter in the end. BCs having perfect vision is a better choice.

This is currently true in the sense that orbital calculations are performed and driven by a computer, but it's mainly because spaceships are very very small and very very expensive, and very limited in fuel, so you have to save as much as possible and be as optimal as possible to save fuel, and thus space and weight, which costs a lot of money

We don't have this issue in our setting, normal propulsion is essentially free and near limitless, our spaceships are large, they host thousands of people living there more or less constantly

The vision, it depends, but even the most modern NASA ship uses an optical system (https://software.nasa.gov/software/MSC-26456-1) for navigation, in space you don't have the issue of atmospheric distorsions and the likes, not to mention we have the bridge made with a gigantic window in the front which as design would indicate that you're expected to look outside when doing things (otherwise you'd have just the stronger walls to protect such a vital part of the ship), so I'm not sure which of us would be right on this, I suppose it depends on the perspective we look at it from?

[Peppermint]

3 hours ago, Garnascus said:

The thing to keep in mind here is that the current document regarding how able bodied your character must be is the result of EXHAUSTIVE discussion, iteration and debate. Overall policy has shifted this way and that over the years. Regardless of where the pendulum swung there was always a portion of people dissatisfied with it. Most staff members have personal anecdotes of having to deal with a frustrating case of a particular character toeing the line or pushing a good faith boundary with a disability. 

Expanding or restricting disabilities is TECHNICALLY easier to do nowadays since we have fancy charts. I think the best things to consider when doing this is "Does this allow interesting characters to be made" and "is this consistent with a heavy RP setting" with hopefully a fine balance between the two. 

Yeah I remember, I helped write one of the iterations of it and remember the misery of the response by some people. I agree with the majority of what was implemented, I just think (and hope) the last bit you've mentioned here in allowing for interesting characters whilst not being a problem to others or general believably is what I'm suggesting for these roles. I hope any way lol.

[La Villa Strangiato]

I think you can dictate faxes with a STT program or write them down with some sort of fluff slate that would translate Braille into Tau Ceti Basic/whatever your chosen language is.

Also, blind psychologists and psychiatrists do exist in real life.

[Rabid Animal]

I just want to play a colorblind engineer so I can electrocute myself by mixing up the 3 red wires

[Flpfs]

I agree with everything that Peppermint has stated. The proposed changes seem reasonable and it's been long enough for the restrictions to be revised.

Blind psychologists exist IRL with our current level of tech, and blind people can send/recieve faxes IRL with our current level of technology. I am sure that any discrepancies in-game could be reasonably explained.

The part about this being a corporate dystopia is irrelevant in my view as the line was never drawn there in the first place; Guwandi being employed and all etc, though this debate in specific has been done to death.

 

[Fluffy]

13 hours ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

Also, blind psychologists and psychiatrists do exist in real life.

So does blind physicians since the 19th century (see Jacob Bolotin), there's even blind pilots, but it's inconsequential to them being reasonably found on a spaceship, and flagship at that, and especially in our setting

Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it's reasonably found here

[Peppermint]

Which is why I didn't include physicians in the list, despite it being a thing whilst I was researching. That and it'd be a big mechanical pain.

[Sniblet]

I'm generally a fan of reducing rules in all corners when it comes to RP. Ask me about a rule and I'll argue for how it can be loosened or removed. Being able to RP what you want is the point of RP. Some things must be restricted to guard setting and tone, but Aurora is silly about it - I could write a manifesto.

Many of our of restrictions make sense, because a lot of jobs are emergency personnel or expected to suddenly become such under Horizon’s working conditions. A little less than half of jobs are not emergency personnel, like all of service, and it's good and reasonable that most of them are freed up accordingly. But it's only service, and most of even them still need to see for... some reason.

 

Why do chefs, machinists, and pharmacists need full use of both arms? These are not emergency staff, unless the pharmacist is being asked to work out of the bounds of their training and job description. Their work can be done with one hand at a time.

Why do miners and machinists need unimpaired hearing? Miners are expected to function in vacuum, so this can only be referring to radio. Maybe they need to be aware of their fellow miner? You could argue either way here, but I would say you only really need to be able to distinguish anguished shrieking from regular speech, as demonstrated by their unique speech impediment tolerance. As for machinists... flat why?

Speaking of unique speech impediment tolerance, why do only miners accept heavy impediment? Again, the third time - why not machinists? Why is science this restricted when the most they'll be expected to communicate in their emergencies is "fire, biology" "phoron, chemistry" "k'ois, botany" or "anomaly, storage?" Their job is to discover things and transmit discoveries, but most science discoveries are ultimately communicated in writing.

Corporate and independent reporters ought to have different standards. You want your corporate propagandist to be speaking plainly and getting good shots, but an independent reporter from Vysoka who's here to report home to Vysoka might not need a superior command of Basic, nor any eyesight.

 

The "we're the flagship/in this hell world disabled people are unemployable" argument doesn't stand so well when it's applied so inconsistently. In a rational world, SCCV Horizon would be staffed only by the most carefully curated band of Cetian and Eridanian professionals at the peaks of their fields with no more than necessary consideration for token external, alien, or entry-level hires for optics. In the world we live in, we hire a handful of viax, Za chefs, DPRA war vets, Solarians, more dregs than suits, rogue shells, closet exclusionists, Keala Nalika, Imogen Janse, Kira Vasquez, Ka'Akaix'Nakoz C'thur, and at least two hundred thousand Guwan and counting.

At this moment, saying that Horizon is the SCC's ideal public face feels like a joke. Don't mistake this for a bad thing. It's something we should permit more of. Maybe we shouldn't be the flagship.

Edited June 29 by Sniblet

[Peppermint]

15 hours ago, Sniblet said:

I'm generally a fan of reducing rules in all corners when it comes to RP. Ask me about a rule and I'll argue for how it can be loosened or removed. Being able to RP what you want is the point of RP. Some things must be restricted to guard setting and tone, but Aurora is silly about it - I could write a manifesto.

Many of our of restrictions make sense, because a lot of jobs are emergency personnel or expected to suddenly become such under Horizon’s working conditions. A little less than half of jobs are not emergency personnel, like all of service, and it's good and reasonable that most of them are freed up accordingly. But it's only service, and most of even them still need to see for... some reason.

 

Why do chefs, machinists, and pharmacists need full use of both arms? These are not emergency staff, unless the pharmacist is being asked to work out of the bounds of their training and job description. Their work can be done with one hand at a time.

Why do miners and machinists need unimpaired hearing? Miners are expected to function in vacuum, so this can only be referring to radio. Maybe they need to be aware of their fellow miner? You could argue either way here, but I would say you only really need to be able to distinguish anguished shrieking from regular speech, as demonstrated by their unique speech impediment tolerance. As for machinists... flat why?

Speaking of unique speech impediment tolerance, why do only miners accept heavy impediment? Again, the third time - why not machinists? Why is science this restricted when the most they'll be expected to communicate in their emergencies is "fire, biology" "phoron, chemistry" "k'ois, botany" or "anomaly, storage?" Their job is to discover things and transmit discoveries, but most science discoveries are ultimately communicated in writing.

Corporate and independent reporters ought to have different standards. You want your corporate propagandist to be speaking plainly and getting good shots, but an independent reporter from Vysoka who's here to report home to Vysoka might not need a superior command of Basic, nor any eyesight.

 

The "we're the flagship/in this hell world disabled people are unemployable" argument doesn't stand so well when it's applied so inconsistently. In a rational world, SCCV Horizon would be staffed only by the most carefully curated band of Cetian and Eridanian professionals at the peaks of their fields with no more than necessary consideration for token external, alien, or entry-level hires for optics. In the world we live in, we hire a handful of viax, Za chefs, DPRA war vets, Solarians, more dregs than suits, rogue shells, closet exclusionists, Keala Nalika, Imogen Janse, Kira Vasquez, Ka'Akaix'Nakoz C'thur, and at least two hundred thousand Guwan and counting.

At this moment, saying that Horizon is the SCC's ideal public face feels like a joke. Don't mistake this for a bad thing. It's something we should permit more of. Maybe we shouldn't be the flagship.

Agree with stances like this more and more. But my general thoughts here is that more character options are good. None of these are implausible in the average day to day round and they'd all add RP.

[dessysalta]

17 hours ago, Sniblet said:

Kira Vasquez

I'm pretty sure this statement is expendable/a cog in the machine/something something War Criminal something something. This message brought to you by the Southern Solarian Military District and Heaven's Devils. This is the 104th, bitch! we clown in this motherfucker! Take your sensitive ass back to the TCFL.

Jokes aside, agree with your stances here. Not much else to say other than I welcome new disabilities into play and I'm glad we're revisiting the requirements in general.

[greenjoe]

To add on to this, I'd feel that pharmacists should be allowed to be heavily movement impaired, one that uses a wheelchair should not be an issue.

[FlamingLily]

I think we should increase all requirements. Every character must have a cybernetic enhancement allowing their bodies to operate at 150% of a human's capacity.

 

Jokes aside, I concur with everything said so far. Especially that blindness categories need a look at

(Perfect: ... Characters with nearsightedness, or other disabilities that may affect the eyes to a minor extent belong in this category.)
(Flawed: ... Characters with colorblindness or nearsightedness also belong in this category.)

I also think hearing is lacking, insofar that lumping in full 100% deaf with "I can't hear out of one ear" or "I have pretty bad tinnitus but can hear people talking" is kind of needlessly binary. Perhaps also the limbs section. Is an individual with one hand as disadvantaged as someone with tremors, but two hands?

[Carver]

37 minutes ago, FlamingLily said:

I think we should increase all requirements. Every character must have a cybernetic enhancement allowing their bodies to operate at 150% of a human's capacity.

 

Jokes aside, I concur with everything said so far. Especially that blindness categories need a look at

(Perfect: ... Characters with nearsightedness, or other disabilities that may affect the eyes to a minor extent belong in this category.)
(Flawed: ... Characters with colorblindness or nearsightedness also belong in this category.)

I also think hearing is lacking, insofar that lumping in full 100% deaf with "I can't hear out of one ear" or "I have pretty bad tinnitus but can hear people talking" is kind of needlessly binary. Perhaps also the limbs section. Is an individual with one hand as disadvantaged as someone with tremors, but two hands?

I assumed the idea with those vision categories is that if you wear glasses or have something similar that fixes the problem, it’s treated as a Perfect. If you don’t, whether by inability to rectify the issue or unwillingness then it’d be flawed.

[MattAtlas]

What people need to understand in general is that we don't make these restrictions up on the spot because we say so. These "silly" restrictions have all been put in place because of precedent, to break a certain kind of culture. This has historically always been a successful approach. Removing the detective's ability to run into combat (removal of the lethal .38 ammo) effectively killed the combat detective stereotype. The disability guidelines completely killed the mute engineers and mute officers that caused a shitload of headaches for staff in the past. I could go on and on, but looking at these policiess as walls to bring down isn't really the correct way of looking at it. They're there for a reason, and by staying there they prevent the old culture issues from starting up again.

The dystopia argument is pretty much irrelevant, really. It has never been the reason why I made the disability guidelines, and I'm not sure why people talk about it. I made them specifically to stop certain kinds of character archetypes from being made where they logically don't fit and hamper gameplay. That doesn't mean that things weren't overlooked, but there was serious debate in modchat/staff discord in general when these were made.

Now onto the proposal itself.

On 28/06/2024 at 21:14, Peppermint said:

Eyesight

I agree with everything here, I guess. I don't particularly like it, but I don't disagree either.

The consideration for psychs not being able to be blind is that they have medical training. It would be quite odd for a blind person to be treating someone.

On 28/06/2024 at 21:14, Peppermint said:

Hearing/Communication

Mute hangar tech is a no because of ship weapons. The rest is OK.

On 28/06/2024 at 21:14, Peppermint said:

Hearing/Communication

I agree with everything here, I think.

[Peppermint]

1 hour ago, MattAtlas said:

What people need to understand in general is that we don't make these restrictions up on the spot because we say so. These "silly" restrictions have all been put in place because of precedent, to break a certain kind of culture. This has historically always been a successful approach. Removing the detective's ability to run into combat (removal of the lethal .38 ammo) effectively killed the combat detective stereotype. The disability guidelines completely killed the mute engineers and mute officers that caused a shitload of headaches for staff in the past. I could go on and on, but looking at these policiess as walls to bring down isn't really the correct way of looking at it. They're there for a reason, and by staying there they prevent the old culture issues from starting up again.

The dystopia argument is pretty much irrelevant, really. It has never been the reason why I made the disability guidelines, and I'm not sure why people talk about it. I made them specifically to stop certain kinds of character archetypes from being made where they logically don't fit and hamper gameplay. That doesn't mean that things weren't overlooked, but there was serious debate in modchat/staff discord in general when these were made.

Now onto the proposal itself.

I agree with everything here, I guess. I don't particularly like it, but I don't disagree either.

The consideration for psychs not being able to be blind is that they have medical training. It would be quite odd for a blind person to be treating someone.

Mute hangar tech is a no because of ship weapons. The rest is OK.

 

I agree with everything here, I think.

I suppose my point mostly is that I hope the old cultural issues are less likely any more and that these above suggestions wouldn't allow them back. I don't really know tho as not staff any more. but just my perspective from playing a bit more. I was part of the discussion at the time and iirc, we were all just extremely damn tired of dealing with people who would last out the albeism word whenever they got told their mute captain or w/e wasn't the plan. 

For psych, I think it's the main one I've listed that can go either way. Depends how much of a focus they should have on treating people. Like, it is doable but it would definitely be more difficult - I mostly think that trade off is fine as they're the emergency back-up option any way and shouldn't be doing medical stuff unless there's nobody else. Plus like, being in that situation at all would generate RP in whomever has dragged the poor guy in. If he's got minor wounds, sorting him out will be fine - same with triaging. If he's got anything more serious, the blindness is the least of their worries and he's likely dead.  I think it'd be cool and add for some flavorful RP, but I do understand the worries about this one.

For hanger tech however, my point is that you can already play a mute hangar tech which seems weird - I think they'll have been just not been in after the gun changes, but right now the disability lists mutism as being fine. Not sure if I'm just getting confused ^^.

In the same way bridgecrew I think should go up, as right now they're listed as flawed.

That said, I really don't want this to turn into one of those conversations where staff feel pushed into a corner due to ideas getting support. Y'all will have a better finger on the pulse as it were for what is currently viable community wise.

Edited July 2 by Peppermint

[Peppermint]

On 02/07/2024 at 13:20, MattAtlas said:

What people need to understand in general is that we don't make these restrictions up on the spot because we say so. These "silly" restrictions have all been put in place because of precedent, to break a certain kind of culture. This has historically always been a successful approach. Removing the detective's ability to run into combat (removal of the lethal .38 ammo) effectively killed the combat detective stereotype. The disability guidelines completely killed the mute engineers and mute officers that caused a shitload of headaches for staff in the past. I could go on and on, but looking at these policiess as walls to bring down isn't really the correct way of looking at it. They're there for a reason, and by staying there they prevent the old culture issues from starting up again.

The dystopia argument is pretty much irrelevant, really. It has never been the reason why I made the disability guidelines, and I'm not sure why people talk about it. I made them specifically to stop certain kinds of character archetypes from being made where they logically don't fit and hamper gameplay. That doesn't mean that things weren't overlooked, but there was serious debate in modchat/staff discord in general when these were made.

Now onto the proposal itself.

I agree with everything here, I guess. I don't particularly like it, but I don't disagree either.

The consideration for psychs not being able to be blind is that they have medical training. It would be quite odd for a blind person to be treating someone.

Mute hangar tech is a no because of ship weapons. The rest is OK.

 

I agree with everything here, I think.

Just gonna go ahead and ping this again before I forget (again). Checking if this means these things are an option then, or something that'll be looked at, ect? Just before I go ahead and make something and get executed. <3/

[Lmwevil]

There's no need to ping matt, maintainer discussions can take a lot of time. 

This sort of thing stays on their menu for a good minute. 

As for blind consulars, I suppose my question would be why would in any world a diplomatic service of any nation with the ability to cure blindness, not cure the blindness of a diplomat sent to another nation. 

Remember that diplomats have to be able to speak good, and of course look at paperwork. But more importantly they need to look at the people they're talking to, to see their facial expressions and read them in order to get what your nation desires and foster friendships. 

One could argue you have daredevil like hearing and the tiniest change in the pitch of someone's voice is something you note, but plenty of people say a lot about themselves irl based on how they sit and move. 

I also have the hot take opinion that mute characters do not add much to the roleplay experience, and often serve to hamper or slow it down. (I can name 1 mute character I enjoyed interacting with in all my time on Aurora and it was a mute bartender tv face ipc who communicated via images on the tv which was actually neat) But that's a different kettle of fish. 

[Arrow768]

There is one thing that I do want to point out in that discussion.
Our setting is at a point in time, where most disabilities are by choice.
Characters have the option to get artificial replacements for pretty much any organ they have.
There can be reasons why a character might not want to go that path, but I do question if the Megacorps have to respect that choice in all cases or just go "if you want to work for us you have to meet those requirements. We can offer you a very attractive* repayment plan for those implants"