[2 Binned] Doing Something About Cult

[TrickingTrapster]

Warning: Huge amounts of salt for this gamemode incoming. I am going to seriously propose something, however, so skip to the end to see what it is.

Let me start by saying, I absolutely hate cult and everythiung about it as it is now. Like, rotting away in a prison cell for a day seems more fun than to play this broken shitty gamemode hate. That much, yes.

Why is it bad?

Now, onto the why. Cult, at it's concept, is already terrible for a roleplay game. It's only fun for the people starting as cult - since they chose for it - but for everyone else? Roleplay, at its core, is having input on the choices you make with your character. As soon as you are converted? Woops, no more free will, sucks to be you, you now have to only help the cult. You can't do nothing, you can't go against them, not allowed to cryo unless IRL shenanigans because it will be meta. Your character HAS to make their choices in such a way that they aid the cult. To be basic: Your input has been taken away. You're not roleplaying anymore, you're playing a strategy game of "how do I convert until nar'sie". Might as well play a MOBA or an MMO, that's how much input you have left. Maybe not even. Oh, and if you decide to not join the cult, and resist conversion? Too fucking bad, you die and get captured like a pokémon as a ghost, put into some shitty construct and are forced to be cult anyway.

Lore Issues

It doesn't stop at the mechanical issues, oh no. I may have said this somewhere before, but cult's lore makes no sense at all. So, okay, you have Nar'Sie. Some people worship him, yadda yadda. Good so far, right? Okay, so the cult starts with 3 people, all of which get a single word to make runes with. Okay, cooperation. Fine. So, what happens when someone gets converted? They immediately know how to accurately draw runes, get a word whispered into them, know how to correctly pronounce each word instantly and what rune does what. What? If Nar'Sie can do that, why not make one omnipotent cultist? Or, give all the cultists the words right from the get-go? Or, better yet, appear at roundstart so the round is over and we can get back to doing actual fun things. Okay maybe not that last one, but you get what I mean. It doesn't make any sense. Where are hte initiation rites? The making of a sacred place for Nar'Sie? There is seriously none of that. The AI going to telecomms to be powered by a magic SMES makes more sense than this bullshit.

How to Fix it

For starters, fix the lore issues. Do not instantly turn someone. Make them do an initiation rite, and slowly let them slip away so there is actual opportunity to RP it out. Give the cultists a bit more cult-y things to do than "ooh blood drawings". Might as well be called "magic hooligans" and use magical graffiti instead. Give them more than one goal to work with. Make conversions a little harder to do, and maybe not lethal when someone doesn't want to. In short, make it more interesting and fix the issues with the lore. Either that, or remove it from secret rotation so people know what they are getting into when it is actually voted cult. Cult, as it is now, is shitty and broken and not fun at all. I'm not talking about people playing the cultists, but the gamemode itself is just hugely toxic to a RP environment.

The Propositon

So, I have several propositions for this.

-We can remove it from secret rotation so it's only cult when voted.

-We can remove it until the issues listed are fixed, or updated to be actually fun.

-We can remove cult altogether.

There is, of course, also the option to do none of these. If this turns into a poll, and the option to leave it as is is selected, I will drop it and stop being salty about this gamemode, and concede to playing it. If there is no poll, I will not change my ways. Please tell me your thoughts in a post/vote in a poll if that happens. Thank you.

[Ron]

I don't like it, but at the same time I don't want it to take 10 minutes to convert someone. The CT vote starts at 2 hours. Also I don't like any of your three propositions. Removing a gamemode entirely is the lazy way of doing something. I agree it needs changes, but different than the ones you said it needs. Also I'm not seeing the contract that says "You've been converted. You must obey the ones who converted you." You don't /have/ to do what they say. You can disagree with them.

[TrickingTrapster]

No, Ron, you're wrong. The CT /can/ be called at two hours, but it doesn't have to be. Same reason why malf AIs rush system override is so they can do something fun before their time is up because they couldn't do anything due to the research taking too long and people thinking the round is boring. I also never said you had to obey the ones that converted you. I said that you don't have a choice in why you do the actions you do after you get converted. You can disagree on what other cultists do, but if you do, it /has/ to be in favor of the cult as a whole. You have no choice in that. Also, by any means, share what you think needs fixing.

[Ron]

'..Can be called at two hours..." Exactly. And you don't think cult will rush converting people because of this in favor of actual RP? Also I am not seeing any texts or rules that say you have to obey other cultists. At all. As far as I am concerned I don't have to listen to them at all, according to the rules and the texts in-game. Now, this isn't to be taken as I can just rat out the cult at round start or refuse to help them entirely. But if they are going on an armory raid, and I don't want to, I don't have to. Even if it would help the entire cult. Same with conversions. If I don't want to, I don't /have/ to. Feel free to pull up a rule that proves me wrong.

[Pyrociraptor]

As someone that's also EXTREMELY salty from cult rounds, I'd like to add another thing about the first paragraph:

Other gamemodes antags have no real end objectives. The Merc team want to actually become musicians ? Hell we've seen that before. Or maybe they prefer becoming an ultra brutal security force arresting you for random reasons? They can!

McBaldus the traitor can RP being actually a crazy man or just stealing some random shit instead of bombing the station or killing the captain.

The ninja can be a simple lost wanderer in time.

Any antags can create their own goal. But cult well...

Cult is just about "summoning Nar'sie". Even if they don't have a "real objective set", all cults I've seen only tries to rush for Nar'nar. Only variation I've ever seen? Changing the name of Nar'nar.

Plus when a cult tries to go "peacefully", they end up going full lethal because just one guy said "nah thank you I'm atheist."

Removing cult from secret rotation seems like the best option for me, as removing cult may be a bit too extreme.

[Ron]

Yeah. They don't have a real objective set. It's the players that make the objective. They have AOOC to talk and make gimmicks. They don't have to go nar'sie. Maybe it could be improved in the code to allow for more options, but other than that its up to the players.

[TrickingTrapster]

Ron, it's the same as when vampire logs show up that your mind goes blank, or when you are being dominated. When you get converted, the log that appears is literally "there is no you, only the cult". You have to adhere to that.

[Scheveningen]

Ron, it's the same as when vampire logs show up that your mind goes blank, or when you are being dominated. When you get converted, the log that appears is literally "there is no you, only the cult". You have to adhere to that.

 

Yes, and this is roleplay. It's not about "doing whatever you want", it is about being a driving story and plot element. It's about being a very small part of the larger picture, like a pawn on the chessboard, as is the point of roleplay in the first place. The individual's needs matter much less than the cause they are pursuing.

And the cause of the cult is to perform blood sacrifices to Nar'sie, convert enough of the crew to the darker faith and optionally summon the avatar of Nar'sie if the cult feels it necessary to do. They aren't required to, but pursuing and completing a roleplay goal is part of the fun as an antagonist.

I see nothing wrong with cult as is, you are free to not play when it is a cult round.

The least one could do rather than complaining about the fact that your character has no free will when their consciousness is bound to a demonic eldritch deity is to roleplay out the fact you're a servant of Nar'sie. Certainly, you can opt for stealth elements so as to conceal your intent and forward your goals without being immediately ousted as a bad guy to the point no one will willingly convert to serve the Geometer.

But you still need to roleplay, savvy? Regardless of what side you're on, you need to make an invested effort whether you like the circumstances or not.

The only gripe I have with cult as a game mode is that the entire progress of the cult hinges on the starting cultists to have an understanding of what they're doing and they have to be unafraid to occasionally gank folks in order to acquire followers, as very few characters would be aligned well enough to serve something as unsubtle as a death-bringing incomprehensible mass of utter darkness, suffering and gloom. It is genuinely very difficult to execute a cult takeover of the station, because the set-up is always time-consuming and is often prone to miscalculations of scenarios since anybody could be around the corner to see you kidnap someone for conversion.

Convincing people to join the cult is just as risky, because that character could see yours as insane and immediately report your suggestions to security.

It's the matter of community mentality to work against what they perceive antagonists as greentexting, and as a result that level of powergaming and validhunting is, in itself, also greentexting, because the only thing most people care about is removing the antagonist from the round so they don't have to deal with them later on. To deny an antagonist their ability to progress in some way is appealing to some people and it gives them gratification for throwing them into the permabrig or clicking them until horizontal.

[TrickingTrapster]

Scheve, yes, this is roleplay. And if I have to roleplay as a pawn of Nar'Sie that will have to influence everything I do then you can as well replace me with a simple mob because it's just limiting me as a player. I fail to see how forcefully converting people that then almost /have/ to do the same to other people with no choices attached adds anything to any roleplay. Yes, it's partly on the community. And some players can make this work. But if only 10% of the community can make this gamemode work then I have to look for the problem in the gamemode rather than the community. Cult is literally the only gamemode left with a clear "greentext": Summon Nar'Sie. Meaning: It takes away roleplaying freedom. If I wanted to be a dark, brooding eldritch deity-worshipping character, I would have ticked that antag box. I didn't do it for a reason. There is no creativity left in cult. Get creative, update it. Make it a cyber cult or something. It doesn't even fit with a space theme right now. Right now cult requires as much brain as doing a good zerg rush on starcraft. Get more to convert more to win. And that's the problem, the cult has to play to win. Change that goal. They need to play to roleplay, not to win.

[Scheveningen]

Summoning Nar'sie is an endgoal, getting to that is the hard part. Doing whatever it takes in IC to achieve that goal is more roleplay than most are even close to being cut out for.

If you don't like having free will as a part of a cult, then I can really say nothing other than "tough."

There is a lot people overlook when folks criticize game modes and don't appreciate enough.

[Skull132]

Cult is just about "summoning Nar'sie". Even if they don't have a "real objective set", all cults I've seen only tries to rush for Nar'nar. Only variation I've ever seen?

 

I'm going to point out that this sword has two, very sharp edges. I absoloutely love Nar'Nar. It is one of the greatest goals purely because of the spectacle she provides. Specially now, when she's more than a resprited singularity. She actually does something. She is the great end goal that everyone dreads, and a bunch of whackos want to get to. The fact that the cult has something this bad up their sleeve should eventually become obvious via the innumerable amount of horrific and bloody acts that they can commit.

Removing it would basically remove a great end-game tool from the players. It would remove the thing about the round. Even if Nar'nar isn't summoned, the fact that she can have a tangible presence ingame is immense. I want lore to be tangible like this. I want to increase the amount of bluespace tears. The amount of times random Vox come. Whatever. Removing Nar'nar would be going against that, and would shove the gamemode further down, into a state of eternal, "Eh....".

[TrickingTrapster]

I'm not saying remove nar'sie. Summoning nar'sie is fine by me. But the fact that it's literally the /only/ thing the cult has as a goal makes it outright boring to observe the path they take getting there, or worse, having to RP being on that path. Give cult a bit of variation it can use, like mercs or heist. Give it a goal it doesn't /need/ to convert people for, give it a goal that is not summoning nar'sie besides summoning nar'sie, and, above all, make /getting to the part of summoning nar'sie fun/. If you're playing cult purely for the end result while the path is a slog you're doing something wrong.

[LordFowl]

Cult has exactly as many round-ending mechanics as Nuke Ops, who still have the full capability to get dat fukken disk. But they don't. Summoning Nar'Sie is the choice of the cultists, just as detonating the nuke is the choice of the Nuke Ops. Cultists have a diverse set of runes and tools to accomplish any objective - that they only go for Nar'Sie is a fault of communication in the cult.

[Skull132]

I'm not saying remove nar'sie. Summoning nar'sie is fine by me. But the fact that it's literally the /only/ thing the cult has as a goal makes it outright boring to observe the path they take getting there, or worse, having to RP being on that path. Give cult a bit of variation it can use, like mercs or heist. Give it a goal it doesn't /need/ to convert people for, give it a goal that is not summoning nar'sie besides summoning nar'sie, and, above all, make /getting to the part of summoning nar'sie fun/. If you're playing cult purely for the end result while the path is a slog you're doing something wrong.

 

What would this goal be, pray tell? They're fanatics twisted by powers of the Void. What else could they want to do?

Also, Fowl is correct, I neglect el nookay. And he is also right in that there are a lot cultists who don't go for Nar'sie. They usually go for spreading their power or trying to take over the station.

[Scheveningen]

To which it's their (the cult's) prerogative. Whether they do or don't hardly matters, the round will progress in the direction it was meant to go.

I want to point out the only solutions the OP has presented have just boiled down to "Remove thing because I don't like nor enjoy the thing". There's really not much to be said besides, "Really? Come on," because that just seems like such an overreaction to something as simple as one not liking a game mode enough.

There are better ways to approach it. I don't personally think cult needs any meaningful changes (asides from a couple QoL things such as removing the communicate rune and making it so that tomes have an activation option for you to communicate to the rest of the cult for convenience's sake), as it's a pretty solid game mode and cult magic is pretty robust as it stands. There's a fair deal of utility and offensive abilities that I find aren't used enough to a !FUN! degree.

[TrickingTrapster]

Whoa now, Scheve, don't put words in my mouth. Only one was removing it, the other ones were putting it aside for voted only and putting it aside until updates are made. We gave vampire this huge overhaul, I say it's cult's turn next. Also, I'm fine with being forced to do something from a RP perspective, but as soon as mechanics start forcing me to RP a certain way I'm drawing the line. There's not really any incentive to counter the cult as it is now either; Yes, it is entirely possible for the chaplain to do this, but, give me two solid examples of rounds you have had that were cult, had a chaplain, and where that chaplain was actively, and with RP, de-converting people. Either make more ways to combat the cult, or give some more incentive for chaplains to interact with the cult without immediately making it boil down to OH NO EVIL PEW PEW NULL ROD. Right now, as I can see it, the gamemode is /solely based on the fun of the ones playing the cultists/, not the crew. If anything it should be the other way around.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I submitted a suggestion on how to counter the vampire through the librarian, and similarly you could do it for the cult. I share the concern that cult rounds go only a certain way - because there's no way to really counter the cult except with lethal weapons.

Buffing the chaplain further would just make them more of a gank-target and dissolve the station's defenses against the cult.

Spreading knowledge of the cult would just mean more people jump at the cult sooner.

Currently Unathi priests and shaman characters can have knowledge that obsidian has soul-purifying properties, so they can assume that cult souls can be saved by the null rod, but otherwise the round is entirely reliant on cult progression.

So really we have to ask if we put the power of round progression more in the hands of crew (by giving them more anti-cult options) or give cult a diversified way of being spoopy.

Because everyone involved is against removing them. I would still like them to remain in secret rotation.

[Airocket]

To be honest, there isn't much you can do as a cult, other than gain a sufficient amount of followers to summon Nar'Sie. You want a round where the cult does something else than that? Then give us an example of what they could do. Be peaceful? I am fairly certain that the cult acting like a pseudo-hippie religion focused around creating book clubs related to Nar'Sie would be an incredibly boring thing. Maybe let them do something different than summoning their deity? Blood championships perhaps? Oh no, hold on, I forgot that almost nobody is willing to sacrifice their characters for anything like that, because everyone wants their characters to be untouchable.

You have to understand that if you want a round to be interesting, there has to be a sacrifice. If you're not willing to do that, then why should the server remove something you don't like? Because your character gets hurt or taken against your will? Just take it like this: If nobody would be willing to risk their lives when trying to perform extreme sports, then we would never know about such things.

[Skull132]

Whoa now, Scheve, don't put words in my mouth. Only one was removing it, the other ones were putting it aside for voted only and putting it aside until updates are made. We gave vampire this huge overhaul, I say it's cult's turn next. Also, I'm fine with being forced to do something from a RP perspective, but as soon as mechanics start forcing me to RP a certain way I'm drawing the line. There's not really any incentive to counter the cult as it is now either; Yes, it is entirely possible for the chaplain to do this, but, give me two solid examples of rounds you have had that were cult, had a chaplain, and where that chaplain was actively, and with RP, de-converting people. Either make more ways to combat the cult, or give some more incentive for chaplains to interact with the cult without immediately making it boil down to OH NO EVIL PEW PEW NULL ROD. Right now, as I can see it, the gamemode is /solely based on the fun of the ones playing the cultists/, not the crew. If anything it should be the other way around.

 

You're still not giving me a concrete answer my man.

You're also speaking against yourself. Shouldn't your lack of willingness to go along with the cult count as incentive to counter it? Plus, add in the amount of folks who want to bust heads because, hey, busting heads.

[Zundy]

-Turn the station into a mobile platform for further expansion into Tau-Ceti?

---Delcare that the station has been annexed publicly.

------You can ask admins to make it offical.

---Horrifying "Event Horizon" style torture and maiming.

---Standard Holy Temple.

---Focus on unholy science to create new unholy tools.

---Turn the station into a production power house, creating weapons, medical supplies and general supplies for the other Cult Cells now attacking the galaxy.

---Focus on unearthing freakish alien dildos relics.

---Just keep the station exactly the same except everyone is a cultists.

------Have a schism occur on the station when everyone is a cultist so that two cultists factions fight it out (physically, diplomatically or both).

-Have all the cultists gather on the asteroid and build a cult base.

-Have all the cultists gather on the unfinished station and build a cult base.

-Have all the cultists go out into space and build a cult base.

Etc etc

Players themselves can get there characters doing cult-ey things too:

-Researching unholy lore.

-Researching unholy medical experiments.

-Training/practicing fighting techniques.

-General inter-group politics.

-Romance.

-Freakish art.

-Freakish botany.

I really don't get why every cult round tends to just go full MDK when there's so much more that can be done.

[Airocket]

-Turn the station into a mobile platform for further expansion into Tau-Ceti?

---Delcare that the station has been annexed publicly.

------You can ask admins to make it offical.

---Horrifying "Event Horizon" style torture and maiming.

---Standard Holy Temple.

---Focus on unholy science to create new unholy tools.

---Turn the station into a production power house, creating weapons, medical supplies and general supplies for the other Cult Cells now attacking the galaxy.

---Focus on unearthing freakish alien dildos relics.

---Just keep the station exactly the same except everyone is a cultists.

------Have a schism occur on the station when everyone is a cultist so that two cultists factions fight it out (physically, diplomatically or both).

-Have all the cultists gather on the asteroid and build a cult base.

-Have all the cultists gather on the unfinished station and build a cult base.

-Have all the cultists go out into space and build a cult base.

Etc etc

Players themselves can get there characters doing cult-ey things too:

-Researching unholy lore.

-Researching unholy medical experiments.

-Training/practicing fighting techniques.

-General inter-group politics.

-Romance.

-Freakish art.

-Freakish botany.

I really don't get why every cult round tends to just go full MDK when there's so much more that can be done.

I'm sorry, but all of your ideas listed on the top sound like a good way to make the round really boring and uneventful. Pretty much Extended 2.0

And care to elaborate on romance, freakish art and botany? Have in mind that the cult follows a pretty malicious god who wants everything not from its plane to be destroyed or warped into its own liking. Why do you think a violent cult would try to estabilsh political movements on a RESEARCH station? And do you know what the cult can count as? Religious terrorism. And that's pretty illegal and ends up getting extinguished (read: ganked) by the security in an instant once given the slightest of 'lethal' hints.

[TrickingTrapster]

Skull, with counters, I do mean more mechanical counters. Incentive to counter means jack shit if there is no way to counter it. Maybe, I dunno, make an item crew can wear that can be made that prevents being converted? Something that can be worn on different places or maybe some type of material you can mix in a drink that makes you temporarily immune. Right now there are two ways to counter the cult: Chaplain them or kill them. No one either plays chaplain or cares enough during a cult round to do something about it. That means that security has to bust out the weapons and kill the cultists, resulting in yet another firefight. And as for different goals? Why should their cell be the one to summon nar'sie? Maybe a cell planetside is doing it so here they just make a base for worship? Or make sacrifices to help planetside? I find it hard to believe that the station we RP on has to be the cell that summons nar'sie every time when there obviously have to be more cultists out there. And, give the cult some more incentive to be less murderboney would help as well. Or kidnapconverterboney.

[Coalf]

I think this is purely an issue of not liking consequences.

A traitor tries to rambo a prepared security force? Traitors fault.

A vampire runs out of blood and hulks, getting himself killed? Vampires fault.

Revs try to convert someone who refuses and rats them out? Revs fault.

You die because you refused to join the cultists with obvious otherworldly powers? Somehow the cults fault.

etc.

You do X which leads to Y, if you don't like Y don't do X, simple as that. That's why the rune has two options, you're free to resist to death and leave the round if you don't like it, exactly what happens when people go cryo during rev rounds because their character can't do their super special job anymore.

And now the selection of items that force you to help the antag disregarding your characters alignment or backstory.

Cult - Convert Rune, Soul shards - Note you can refuse and die, Soul Shards don't work on bodies with no soul in them.

Traitor - Freedom Implant, AI subversion board, Blackmailed, Explosive Implant - You cannot resist the first two in any way besides getting a third party involved, Blackmail you can disregard at the cost of RP and the last one is you helping or dying.

Vampire - Dominate, Thrall, Turn someone into vampire - No way to refuse the first two, on the third one you're FORCED to hulk and SUCC the first person you see.

Rev - Conversion - Can refuse, depending on the situation you get killed/survive/rat them out to security.

Loyalists- Conversion, Loyalty implant - First can be refused, second cannot.

Wizard - Soul Shard - Again you can refuse.

Malf AI - Laws - Unless you have a smart robotics you're bound to the AI with no way to refuse.

Now the "We all have to be the same" excuse is just not right, you don't have to listen to other cultists, fuck for all you care you can just stay in your department doing whatever as long as it pleased the dark lord.

Make rituals while everyone else runs around maint scribbling runes, try to get your friends converted to the dark lord not because the cult wants it but because you think it's the only way to save them, hell you can run away onto the outpost because you don't want to hurt other people.

Now I agree with a few things, yes cult can get shit but because of the same reason Rev gets shit, because of people, everyone has a different opinion on what is fun so while some people like to murderfuck other people like to fuckmurder.

Of course revs have to stay somewhat low the whole time because getting weapons as a gardener is hard.

With cult you just have to have a tome and you become a one man army.

So no, cult shouldn't be removed, I think you should actually TRY playing cult for once and TRY to actually enjoy it instead of just rolling your eyes and resisting your way to death whenever people try to convert you.

I have to thank Zundy for providing some ideas, most people go "Do whatever" without realizing that other people might not be as good at improv as others.

And also I have to agree with Jackboots, the only people who can fight against a cult is security and chaplain, the latter doesn't exist in cult rounds mostly because they get removed in about five minutes.

And as for security there are two ways they can handle this, powergame and try to keep all of the cultists under surveillance 24/7 because they spend a few more minutes than is healthy in maint.

Or do what a normal officer would do and arrest them for vandalism, that's about it really if someone is drawing on the floor with their own blood the only thing you can do is point them in the direction of the psych and suspend them from their department, we don't arrest mentally ill people IRL do we?

Now not just librarian could have ways to research what cult is doing, how about some crewmembers getting messages when someone uses a rune? Like "You feel like a dark presence is growing".

People could start feeling sickly only to feel much better after being converted, headaches when examining a rune as the dark powers seep into their mind or simply having hallucinations once they read the tome too many times.

The main weapon of an investigator is getting everyone else to believe them and what better way to make everyone believe in dark powers then having them witness the bad side of it and not the good one?

[Wesmas]

A lot of the non nar nar options dont work out. Simply becauser security tends to destroy the cult as soon as they can. Unless you get very lucky with starting cultists, like HoP, Warden and an officer lucky, you have no way of convincing them to allow you do do stuff. I havnt played in a couple of months, but whenever I tried to do a non standard cult round, we died and it became extended where some people acted weird early on.

It doesnt help that you have to spend 15 minutes working out the words, while the rest of the cult just goes mad. The first half an hour of cult sucks as a cultist, because you have very few people on side and very little in the way of convincing people to join. I dont know how to improve cult, but it going would be sad.

[TrickingTrapster]

Yes, like I have reiterated countless of times now, the current concept of cult is really not suited for a RP environment. And if not the concept, then the execution. What's the point of giving the cultists only one word whe they're going to try and figure out all of them right away? Why not give them a bit more RP-oriented variety in their runes? As far as I know, all of the runes have some mechanical impact. Why not make a few decorative ones you can use to disguise other runes in between? Why not a voice changing rune? I dunno, a rune that doesn't feel like the cult is trying to powergame their way through, maybe. Give the cult more options to be a more RP-oriented cult and the players will actually try to use those options.