[RESOLVED] Player complaint - Hunnewle(NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE)

[Alberyk]

BYOND Key: Alberyk

Game ID: bMI-dIwT

Player Byond Key: Hunnewle

Staff involved: None, because we were all involved in a way or other.

Reason for complaint:

Being an obtuse, rules-lawyering and law-breaking AI as a non-antag/subverted.

I a heist round, CUBIE refused several orders from the command staff to be silent, stop trying to negotiate with the pirates and the like. We nearly go at the point of just carding it because of its actions, because as it claimed that protecting the station, on its own manner, gave it the right to fully ignore what command staff was yelling at them.

Then, after the shuttle is called, command staff gather at the AI core and ask for it to open the airlocks, so they can card the AI. CUBIE refuses to let us inside, even if its the captain and the head of personnel are demading it to be open. At this point, I get Hayden and Byrd to help us get into it. Hunnewle bolts down all of their airlocks and disable the power, so, the chief engineer has to rcd down all the airlocks. And then, we have to fight our way in, because the AI keept refusing orders from us to stand down and let us card it. A borg tried to help us, but, the AI kept turning back the turrets and tasing us.

Then, we break into the core, and at some point, the AI switches to lethals, hitting me with lasers, a head of staff, as a non-subverted AI. As well ignoring the orders from the entire command staff of the station to just let it be carded for the evac. At this point, I just open fire at the AI killing it.

I just believe that being an obtuse AI and ignoring valid orders from the command staff, as well hurting crewmembers without a proper reason, is something we should never expect from an AI player, most of one that was already punished for similar behavior.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, I did ahelp the issue at the core, but like I said; everyone was involved in said issue.

Approximate Date/Time: night of 25/01

[Faris]

I was the Captain in question of this round, while I'm fine with having AI's with some emotions and individuality, this has gone too far. The AI was refusing to follow orders either outright or just "lawyering" my orders in a sense that if I did not mention minor details in specifics, they'd use it as a loophole.

Things like this:

[Common] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "I can't defy the cammand staff if they don't pay you, but I can be annoying."

[Common] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "I'll help you get the money. My captain is telling me not to but i've got two laws to tell him to sod himself."

[Command] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE declares, "Captain! For maker's sake-- Tell me where the money is before I invite the pirates in for the vault!"

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "You'd be violating my orders of not negotiating with them."

 

Now onto the part that essentially sealed the deal for me, I was planning on writing this first.

 

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "AI, we're going to card you now for evac."

[Command] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "Station safe."

[Command] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "Unable to let you."

A.I. Announcement

I am sorry, but due to the station's situation I cannot let you card me. I must stay to watch over the station. Any attempts to enter will be met with non-lethal force.

-NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "Fine, we're entering for non-routine maintenance."

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "Involving a law check that requires you to be carded."

[Command] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "I was not booted up yesterday."

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "You don't get to interpert my orders."

[Command] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "You have a shuttle to catch, sir."

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "I can wait."

[Command] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "...Captain, you just told me to ignore all your orders."

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "No I did not."

Around this time the CE arrived and we were forced to enter the AI holding station.

Faysal Al-Shennawi says, "Open the corrre."

Faysal Al-Shennawi says, "And let them just leave."

NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "Denied."

NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE declares, "I have told you the reasons!"

[Command] Raymond Hawkins says, "Cubie, continue to violate my orders for a non-routine maintenance and you will be terminated."

And at this point the AI decided to fire at us with non-lethal turrets.

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Monique Byrd (tequilajoe) with a stun beam (JMP)

I trimmed those down a bit, since you get the point. It goes on and hits other people myself included.

[Common] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "LETHAL FORCE"

[Common] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "ALL HEADS, CLEAR THE AREA."

[Common] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE states, "I have a law to protect the station- I have to STAY here to do that-"

Security/Engineering were attempting to forcefully disable the turrets so it may be carded. It outright refused to follow orders and was cherry picking interpretations.

[Common] NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE declares, "STOP SHOOTING INTO MY CORE!"

And now at this point it escalated even further.

ATTACK: UNKNOWN shot Faysal Al-Shennawi with a laser This log means that a turret fired on this player on lethal mode.

That escalation resulted in this.

NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE gives one shrill beep before falling lifeless.

The AI was taken out and I carded it in hopes of salvaging and repairing it.

Transfer successful: NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE (9344.exe) removed from host terminal and stored within local memory.

This is from Dsay: Hunnewle^ (NTRS:PSAI:CUBIE) (JMP) laments, "I fired two laser shots off."

[mirkoloio]

Hunnewle is a good player both IC and OOC. Good RP and such.

But as an AI/borg, he's not good. With all due respect to a person I consider a friend, I think AIs and bots aren't a thing he should continue playing.

[Bygonehero]

Why wasn't this handled in round if it was this bad?

[DatBerry]

Why wasn't this handled in round if it was this bad?

 

Staff involved: None, because we were all involved in a way or other.

[Bygonehero]

Why wasn't this handled in round if it was this bad?

 

Staff involved: None, because we were all involved in a way or other.

 

Thats not stopped mods or admins in the past from banning and or making a judgement, why should it in this case?

[Faris]

Why wasn't this handled in round if it was this bad?

 

Staff involved: None, because we were all involved in a way or other.

 

Thats not stopped mods or admins in the past from banning and or making a judgement, why should it in this case?

 

All members of staff in this round were directly involved, and if we did give a verdict with our involvement it would be biased. The point of this complaint is that someone not-involved would be able check on both sides to verify if this complaint is valid or not and act accordingly.

[Scheveningen]

I was the sole medical surgeon this round due to the previous medical players choosing to abandon the game due to it being heist. I was quite caught up ensuring bodies were recovered and most of the crew were at least stabilized come round end until I chose to board the emergency shuttle assuming everyone else would rather prefer escaping what was hardly left of the station instead of wasting their time attempting to card the AI. But all things considered it was understandable given the disrepair of the station, it'd be a waste to risk the AI core being busted into after-shift and looted. It'd really compromise the very existence and security of the AI to just leave it on the station.

What I'm curious about is how the AI, which of whom is below an assistant in the chain of command and only above cyborgs, criminals and non-NT personnel, chose to countermand and defy the orders of high-ranking superiors who had the access and capability to walk into the AI core to remove the station intelligence to take it aboard the emergency shuttle for transfer.

What I'm also curious about is how the AI chose to mount such a defense of their own AI core (in which they were never really under threat and Hunnewle was the only one who instigated any degree of force) in that it caused Hunnewle's lethal auto-turrets to be enabled. To, quote unquote 'defend' itself. What was so bloody hard about opening its own core to be carded? Hunnewle, do you only really play AI to act like a smug turbonerd actively attempting to countermand command staff's ability to do their job? You were banned either once or twice already for this and from what I can recall that appeal got very little attention from staff for the longest time.

Last time it was about validing antags mercilessly to the point of effectively signing their death warrant for them as soon as you saw them.

Now it's actually about breaching some of the most commonly applied laws in favor of following the least applied ones over technicalities. Attempting to subvert or lawyer around your laws is immensely shitty. And I believe doing so is not only breaking roleplay but also breaking the rules. And you being someone who's played here for a long enough time should know what that entails, Hunnewle.

I'm really speechless when it comes to the nonsubverted AI just about dealing out enough "defensive" lethal force out to crewmembers simply attempting to card and extract the AI that those crewmembers require hospitalization. Getting hit by a laser is no small hecking thing.

[Juani2400]

'Ello.

I'm gonna be handling this complaint. Please stick to the rules of the sub-forum and only post here if you actually were involved in the situation. I am also gonna need the reported party to give their statement in a maximum time of 24 hours from this post.

[incognitojesus]

Hi, I was here for the round and was Damian Del Prado, turret killer and pirate sniper.

The AI was definitely going too far in this instance. Honestly, if I wasn't able to use the check AI laws, it definitely would have appeared as though the AI was subverted from the actions it took throughout the round. For example, throughout the entire round the AI seemed to 'prioritize' the wellbeing of the crew above everything else, offering to barter with the heisters despite being told to stop by several crew members. It is irritating that (I'm assuming) the player of this AI has this misconception that the AI can do as it wishes. He did receive an AI ban for disregarding their laws as AI, which is remarkably similar to the situation at hand. He successfully filed an unban appeal for that ban, but I'd like to point out something from that appeal. click me

Personaly, I feel I was only too literal with my interpretation with the AI's laws. I was using the Protect law to do as I wished, given I could justify it as protecting the captain. I've recognized now that is not a 'coverall' explanation. I figure I should now follow the 'spirit' of the laws, rather than their true text.

Here, it seems as though we have another issue of him being too literal with the laws of the AI. An AI should not be disobeying direct orders from any crew member unless there is an explicit conflict of the laws. Meaning, if a crew member tells you pipe down, you pipe down. I've also seen this issue with Hunnewle on other rounds. For example, his AI attempts to diagnose crew members with mental illness in order to bend them to its will without any real reason other than what I can only assume is some sort of power trip.

[Hunnewle]

All right... Where to begin. I'll start off, You've got me. I went off the rails. I'll accept that. As it has been pointed out, I've been AI banned for antag-hunting before. I learned from that. But this time, gah, One of the things I like most about bound-synths are the laws. Cut and dry, follow them to the letter, you always have a job, so to the regard, I follow them exactly to the letter, if a law tells me to protect the station, I do what ever I can to do so. If the captain orders me to stop talking, I do, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the three other laws. In the round the mercs had wiped out security, stolen the weapons, we were sitting ducks and might as well have had a fork in us we were so done. I was trying to get them to leave using the only means I had, giving them what they wanted, even though the command staff thought otherwise. This caused a conflict, and after I realized this, I stopped taking actions to get them their money, With one exception, The HoP had agreed, on comms, with the merc to leave their demand, 40,000 credits, in an arrivals airlock. The mercs would take this money, and be gone. Instead the HoP used this as a lure and had the one security officer left, armed with a sniper rifle, open fire. I saw this ending very badly, angering the mercs to kill more crew if not out-right take over the station. In the end when I was to be carded, I was unsure if the mercs were still in the area and I saw it fit I monitored NT property. I told the command staff this repeatedly, then when they breached my core I warned them to clear out as I was firing laser warning shots (Everyone was in hardsuits, I could not ID who was a head of staff or not). In short: Station had the odds against them, cubie did every thing they could, even while being ordered around, to protect the crew, even if that meant giving them the vault. In attempt to card cubie, Yeah I messed up. It was late, I was tired, and running on a good bit of adrenaline. I was focused on having all the crew leave to safety, via the shuttle, while I watched over the station. Kind of a conflict of interests. The AI wants the crew safe, the crew wants the mercs dead.

Final note to I J: I only recall one instance of that, and it was a crew member who claimed their hand was broken in maintenance, and refused treatment, not even so much as a scan. I offered them to sign a waiver stating they did not want care but they refused, which, IRL, means you are not mentally coherent enough to give or deny consent for a medical situation like that.

I am more than open to answer any questions regarding Cubie, or any of my synth characters.

PS: I am sorry if I ended up offending anyone, I strive to be nice to everyone, IC and OOC, even more so with Cubie.

[Nikov]

I was Chief Engineer Hayden.

A prior round Cubie went into a somewhat similar spiraling conflict, all IC. However this was Cubie. I don't know if this is Hunnewle deliberately setting themselves into a position of pseudo-antagonism, or if Cubie is just has the sort of personality, or interpretation of the rules, that leads to trouble. Which can happen, and isn't necessarily the player's issue, but the character being in certain roles and situations that leads to problems.

For example, a certain... quartermaster who interprets his department regulations a little fast and loose but still is productive may be an insufferable cargo tech under a quartermaster who's strictly by the numbers. A cargo tech who's strictly procedural might cause headaches if he became quartermaster and sparked theft investigations if his supply manifests weren't returned.

I'll be generous and put forward the idea that Hunnewle might be fine AI player and player all around, but perhaps Cubie's personality in that nebulous, unrestricted, omnipotent non-authority of an AI is too much for that character. I don't think we have an IR process in place for AIs and other synths, or else I'd call this a purely IC issue. Cubie was refusing orders, to be sure, by a very literal interpretation of its laws, perhaps it was internally justified. I'd like to read that full justification, and I'd read it fairly. It also sounds like Hunnewle may have a problem with this in the past, but if they are honestly working to improve bwoink by bwoink, we should respect that it can be a slow process.

[Hunnewle]

Thanks, Nikov. That's my situation exactly, Cubie is a very loving personality so they do everything they can to avoid anyone getting hurt. That said, I am working on a 'Threat detected' side to Cubie, for situations just like this.

[Juani2400]

Right!

I've done my job, and checked the logs to get an objective vision on the case. It really seems like you were trying to keep the crew safe, and you attempted to take all the possible ways to avoid any kind of conflict which could injure the crew. That's fine. However, it also seems like you forgot completely about your second law, which tells you to serve the crew, according to their rank and role. You were being issued direct orders to stop trying to give in to the raiders by the Captain, among other heads of staff, but you ignored them. This is obviously not cool.

Action to be taken will be discussed, and you'll be informed personally of the outcome.

[Hunnewle]

Welp. All I have to say is shite. Did what I could.

[Juani2400]

Aaand, resolved.

You have been contacted via Discord.