Make guns require a Firing pin.

[Pacmandevil]

Yes, like the ones on TG. No, not all of them.

My reasoning for this is as Follows:

Nerfs the SHIT out of Scientists printing off the whole armory - universally usable Firing pins will ideally only bought from cargo - and perhaps a few in the armory at roundstart. giving the RD some testing firing pins that are only usable in science - or perhaps a dedicated firing range would be ideal.

Also prevents science antags from printing off guns like it's Christmas - Ideally there would be firing pins in the uplink - presumably cheap, and perhaps as a rare find in maint to still make them usable.

Allows the sabotage of guns with enough preemptive planning.

Probably a bunch of stuff.

I'd be willing to code this.

[Butterrobber202]

please, I'm tired of getting rushed by Scientists with high explosive lawbringers

[Dreamix]

That would be nice. A bit restrictive, but actually brings more roleplay. Whether your cargo buddy orders you some firing pins, a warden lends you one for a bit, RD gives you a box, or even if you metagame some from maintenance, you can still cause some trouble.

It removes the problem of scientists who stuff their backpacks with an armoury worth amount of ready-to-robust guns, unless they want to do some quick reassembly while they're under fire. It may also discourage some scientists from spending their entire shifts in the RnD lab.

[Zundy]

Surely Rambo McSci is an ahelp issue? I like the idea of the pins from an RP point of view as it encourages interaction.

[Pacmandevil]

Surely Rambo McSci is an ahelp issue? I like the idea of the pins from an RP point of view as it encourages interaction.

 

A lot of things are ahelp issues. though mechanics generally preventing such behaiviour are better in the long run, less work for the 'mins, and not all things get ahelped.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

please, I'm tired of getting rushed by Scientists with high explosive lawbringers

 

Press F1.

As for the firing pins in general, I wouldn't mind it terribly, but antags should be able to order hacked pins from the uplink, and maybe science should be able to print them if they have a high enough illegal tech level. And of course, the pins should only be applicable to energy weapons.

[Synnono]

Not a fan of this. If Johnny PhD is 'printing off the whole armory' then you can ahelp them. Don't administrate via code.

If it's an emergency and they're doing it for a good reason (rare, I know) this just hamstrings their effectiveness. RnD prototypes exist presumably to be tested. Making them impossible to test without outside help is a backwards way to operate.

[JKJudgeX]

This is yet another one of those "let's make someone else's job less interesting and more complicated because I don't like something that someone did once" kind of posts.

I've seen this done elsewhere and it makes playing scientist annoying and far less interesting.

You can nerf making toxin explosives, remove genetics, cripple R&D, all of that, but the question is why? If it's because someone is abusing it as a non-antag, that person can be fired ICly or adminhelped.

If it's because you're upset that a revolution broke out and R&D armed revolutionaries with crazy awesome weapons... I'd say that's too bad, and that's a cool result that should happen sometimes. Security isn't supposed to win every single time. The game is very dry if every round has a completely predictable outcome.

Also, getting that firing pin is going to be difficult, since half of all rounds lack a HoS to approve it, so, again, that makes R&D an even less interesting job than it already is, and I dunno if you've played it or not, but it's already pretty slow once you've done it a few times... most of the time lately you never even get materials from Cargo, so you can already only do half of your job.

I think one of the reasons I quit messing around on Paradise altogether was because they made all of the weapons print in lockboxes that required HoS or Captain to unlock. With this change in, Research pretty much just becomes "the robotics department" and even that's questionable. Change suggestions should focus on bringing more capability and more RP to the game, not removing or super-complicating entire subcategories of jobs like "weapons testing".

[Kaed]

Also it's really silly that you seem to think all guns in the game would use something as primitive as a 21st century firing pin to work. Particularly the lawbringer, which I think is some sort of crazy advanced bluespace gun?

Not to mention that energy guns don't even ignite bullets.

[Guest Complete Garbage]

In the context of SS13, a firing pin isn't actually what a firing pin is. A firing pin in SS13 is presumably some advanced piece of electronic equipment that allows a weapon to be able to be fired within a certain area. Research firing pins allow weapons to be fired in research. Unlocked/hacked firing pins allow them to be fired anywhere. Conditional firing pins allow them to be fired at certain code levels (i.e. a laser rifle on code red).

They're just called firing pins because uhhhhhhhhhhh...

/shrug

[Kaed]

In the context of SS13, a firing pin isn't actually what a firing pin is. A firing pin in SS13 is presumably some advanced piece of electronic equipment that allows a weapon to be able to be fired within a certain area. Research firing pins allow weapons to be fired in research. Unlocked/hacked firing pins allow them to be fired anywhere. Conditional firing pins allow them to be fired at certain code levels (i.e. a laser rifle on code red).

They're just called firing pins because uhhhhhhhhhhh...

/shrug

 

And the reason why science, which can literally create entire sentient robots and bluespace enabled guns, can't just circumvent this gun lock mechanic easily by being bloody scientists... is...

uuuuh...

/shrug

I have to agree that this seems dumb and unnecessary for the sake of trying to nerf something that's fine already.

I mean, it's better than R&D printing out all their guns in a magical lockbox that spawn from bluespace, but still...

[Pacmandevil]

Making them impossible to test without outside help is a backwards way to operate.

There's a testing firing pin. which limits to a specific area.

[Synnono]

There's a testing firing pin. which limits to a specific area.

 

That addresses the concern of them requiring outside help to be tested, but the main reason I'm against this is because I don't want us to hard code restrictions on behavior into the game. It doesn't stop players who truly want to be disruptive, and it will punish everyone who wants to use the feature being restricted responsibly.

Additionally, science has no dedicated area for weapons testing on newmap, so far. Aside from the bomb range, which is in a vaccuum and prone to fits of space wind thanks to bugs.

[Pacmandevil]

This is yet another one of those "let's make someone else's job less interesting and more complicated because I don't like something that someone did once" kind of posts.

I've seen this done elsewhere and it makes playing scientist annoying and far less interesting.

You can nerf making toxin explosives, remove genetics, cripple R&D, all of that, but the question is why? If it's because someone is abusing it as a non-antag, that person can be fired ICly or adminhelped.

If it's because you're upset that a revolution broke out and R&D armed revolutionaries with crazy awesome weapons... I'd say that's too bad, and that's a cool result that should happen sometimes. Security isn't supposed to win every single time. The game is very dry if every round has a completely predictable outcome.

Also, getting that firing pin is going to be difficult, since half of all rounds lack a HoS to approve it, so, again, that makes R&D an even less interesting job than it already is, and I dunno if you've played it or not, but it's already pretty slow once you've done it a few times... most of the time lately you never even get materials from Cargo, so you can already only do half of your job.

I think one of the reasons I quit messing around on Paradise altogether was because they made all of the weapons print in lockboxes that required HoS or Captain to unlock. With this change in, Research pretty much just becomes "the robotics department" and even that's questionable. Change suggestions should focus on bringing more capability and more RP to the game, not removing or super-complicating entire subcategories of jobs like "weapons testing".

 

You're acting like this flat out removes guns.

* You can still test if you get the testing firing pin

* You can still get firing pins, and this does technicially bring more RP in the form that you actually have to interact with fellow crew if you want a gun that works outside research.

* It's not even a subcategory of job if nobody ever does weapon testing. though I'm mapping in the testing area anyway because people will complain regardless.

*Research has the rest of the department. it's not just guns.

 

R&D an even less interesting job than it already is, and I dunno if you've played it or not, but it's already pretty slow once you've done it a few times

 

R&D being a pretty shitty system is already being addressed by Ron, I think, and either way, not having access to guns doesn't ruin science at all. you still have:

*Toxins

*Chemistry to dick around with

*Telescience

Among the other machines you can build with the equipment the department has.

[Pacmandevil]

Additionally, science has no dedicated area for weapons testing on newmap, so far. Aside from the bomb range, which is in a vaccuum and prone to fits of space wind thanks to bugs.

That is among the things I have to map in, yes. but that will be addressed.

[JKJudgeX]

Okay, let's go with this method then:

1) Is your main character, or a character you play very often directly affected by this proposed change?

2) Under what circumstances does this improve your gameplay?

3) For whom does this improve the game?

4) Doesn't this add extra difficulty to many antagonist roles when assumed by scientists? Nerfing the appeal of a science character for somenoe who wants to play an antagonist?

[CommanderXor]

Gonna have to '-1' this for the reasons above. It seems more like something you'd ahelp, which is really simple thing to od. Rather then try and hardcode it in because you'll be making things less enjoyable for alot of the science staff and antags. While you could buy pins from cargo, or, from an uplink. A issue arises. It's not uncommon for a tech or QM to PDA the person in charge of it asking if they approved it. Every time I play Warden I always get messages 'Did you approve this officer requesting a coffee machine?' 'Did you approve of them getting wood to make a statue to honour someone who died?' and a bunch of other harmless stuff. Can you imagine if it was something like armoury gear or firing pins? This would effectively shut you out. 'Just order them from cargo or the ones in the armoury.' Alright, go ahead and order them. QM decides to ask the Warden, HoS or Captain. 'What? No.' then the Captain/HoS goes talking to you saying you have science pins and that is good enough to do your job. It's basically going to kick both science players, and antags, right in the nuts.

[Pacmandevil]

Okay, let's go with this method then:

1) Is your main character, or a character you play very often directly affected by this proposed change?

2) Under what circumstances does this improve your gameplay?

3) For whom does this improve the game?

4) Doesn't this add extra difficulty to many antagonist roles when assumed by scientists? Nerfing the appeal of a science character for somenoe who wants to play an antagonist?

1) Not my main character, but I play science semi-Often. but even then - no, because I'm not one of those scientists that print off the whole armory, any weapons testing I still want to do would be a simple matter of slotting in a test firing pin and using that. Hell this could technically be an improvement because now there's an actual place TO test weapons.

2) Mechanically limits Valid hunting scientists, or science arming Sec with an absurd amount of guns without much issue, both of which are pretty cheesy strats. and pretty well negate hard-to-do antag actions like stealing/emptying the armory.

3) Antags, and people in general. Mostly antags - because they'll remain mostly uneffected by this change - due to the ablility to get firing pins From the uplink - the lathe with enough illegal tech - maint - the cargo warehouse. this would barely effect any antags asides from perhaps cult - which this probably helps the theme of in the long run, and revs - of which rarely get guns from science anyway - but if they do, they can just run in maint for a bit and look for a pin.

4) as stated above, not really. they can still make obsessive ammounts of guns, they just need to go through the effort of getting a pin. this in theory would allow the sabotage of guns as well, so this gives even more antag options in the long run.

[Pacmandevil]

Gonna have to '-1' this for the reasons above. It seems more like something you'd ahelp, which is really simple thing to od. Rather then try and hardcode it in because you'll be making things less enjoyable for alot of the science staff and antags. While you could buy pins from cargo, or, from an uplink. A issue arises. It's not uncommon for a tech or QM to PDA the person in charge of it asking if they approved it. Every time I play Warden I always get messages 'Did you approve this officer requesting a coffee machine?' 'Did you approve of them getting wood to make a statue to honour someone who died?' and a bunch of other harmless stuff. Can you imagine if it was something like armoury gear or firing pins? This would effectively shut you out. 'Just order them from cargo or the ones in the armoury.' Alright, go ahead and order them. QM decides to ask the Warden, HoS or Captain. 'What? No.' then the Captain/HoS goes talking to you saying you have science pins and that is good enough to do your job. It's basically going to kick both science players, and antags, right in the nuts.

 

It's almost like you should have a reason to make weapons that can be used everywhere on station.

:thonk:

You'll also be able to find them in maint. it's on the To-do list in the PR.

[JKJudgeX]

1) Not my main character, but I play science semi-Often. but even then - no, because I'm not one of those scientists that print off the whole armory, any weapons testing I still want to do would be a simple matter of slotting in a test firing pin and using that. Hell this could technically be an improvement because now there's an actual place TO test weapons.

2) Mechanically limits Valid hunting scientists, or science arming Sec with an absurd amount of guns without much issue, both of which are pretty cheesy strats. and pretty well negate hard-to-do antag actions like stealing/emptying the armory.

3) Antags, and people in general. Mostly antags - because they'll remain mostly uneffected by this change - due to the ablility to get firing pins From the uplink - the lathe with enough illegal tech - maint - the cargo warehouse. this would barely effect any antags asides from perhaps cult - which this probably helps the theme of in the long run, and revs - of which rarely get guns from science anyway - but if they do, they can just run in maint for a bit and look for a pin.

4) as stated above, not really. they can still make obsessive ammounts of guns, they just need to go through the effort of getting a pin. this in theory would allow the sabotage of guns as well, so this gives even more antag options in the long run.

 

1) So, by your admission, this is a proposed, rather major change, to a department you don't really play all that much - I prefer it when someone with deep department experience weighs in on changes proposed to their department. I played an RD and often an antag RD/Scientist here on Aurora for my first whole year almost exclusively. This change would have been very negative, and, as I mentioned before, I've played under similar circumstances on other servers. The change is unneeded, and takes a way a great deal of the power of the department to make itself useful without requiring permission, help, or extended thievery/trickery they may not be capable of on a given round.

2) Valid-hunting scientists pretty much never happens. A scientist who makes a weapon to defend themselves or to equip sec in a pinch, sure... but I just haven't seen anyone ever scream for this. The amount of R&D needed to make guns that stack up against the armory is ALREADY something that requires cooperation with cargo, and quite often doesn't even happen because no miner, or, no one bothers to bring the materials in the first place.

3) Science-based antags have a really good path to enabling themselves via the protolathe as it stands. This just nerfs that - to no benefit. The station already has to deal with peace antags and boring rounds because antags get robusted by security before having a chance to cause any conflict. This change just makes those holes deeper. When I am a rev in the science department, I arm revs from that protolathe. When I am a rev from another department I seek an R&D collaborator to arm my guys secretly. This change would just get in my way and make a thing more difficult that is already plenty difficult to accomplish without getting caught and ended. I say nay to this, too.

4) Sabotage of guns? Why? This would be something that happened one out of 100 rounds and wouldn't even lead to anything cool. No thanks.

This sounds like a valid-hunter's wet dream, to me. "Look, it just got way harder for antags to arm up. lol that means we 'win' more often!".

Is your main a security toon? Are you a malf player or someone who would be generally be unaffected by this? It seems like you're throwing a suggestion without really considering the consequences for the department. I'm just not a fan.

Thanks for addressing my questions.

Firing pins are a bad idea - I've played with similar stuff and it just makes R&D something EVEN LESS people will bother with... making Robotics the only worthwhile job in science besides maybe Toxins, before someone suggests nerfing that, too. "Only RD can unlock phoron canisters" etc.

[DatBerry]

New mining has made miners more common, so are diamonds and other materials, compared to old mining its much more common.

The main reason i support this is because it'll cause more interdepartment interactions.

Though I have to say, if the only fun thing about RnD is making guns, then it is a very sad department.

[Pacmandevil]

1) Not my main character, but I play science semi-Often. but even then - no, because I'm not one of those scientists that print off the whole armory, any weapons testing I still want to do would be a simple matter of slotting in a test firing pin and using that. Hell this could technically be an improvement because now there's an actual place TO test weapons.

2) Mechanically limits Valid hunting scientists, or science arming Sec with an absurd amount of guns without much issue, both of which are pretty cheesy strats. and pretty well negate hard-to-do antag actions like stealing/emptying the armory.

3) Antags, and people in general. Mostly antags - because they'll remain mostly uneffected by this change - due to the ablility to get firing pins From the uplink - the lathe with enough illegal tech - maint - the cargo warehouse. this would barely effect any antags asides from perhaps cult - which this probably helps the theme of in the long run, and revs - of which rarely get guns from science anyway - but if they do, they can just run in maint for a bit and look for a pin.

4) as stated above, not really. they can still make obsessive ammounts of guns, they just need to go through the effort of getting a pin. this in theory would allow the sabotage of guns as well, so this gives even more antag options in the long run.

 

1) So, by your admission, this is a proposed, rather major change, to a department you don't really play all that much - I prefer it when someone with deep department experience weighs in on changes proposed to their department. I played an RD and often an antag RD/Scientist here on Aurora for my first whole year almost exclusively. This change would have been very negative, and, as I mentioned before, I've played under similar circumstances on other servers. The change is unneeded, and takes a way a great deal of the power of the department to make itself useful without requiring permission, help, or extended thievery/trickery they may not be capable of on a given round.

2) Valid-hunting scientists pretty much never happens. A scientist who makes a weapon to defend themselves or to equip sec in a pinch, sure... but I just haven't seen anyone ever scream for this. The amount of R&D needed to make guns that stack up against the armory is ALREADY something that requires cooperation with cargo, and quite often doesn't even happen because no miner, or, no one bothers to bring the materials in the first place.

3) Science-based antags have a really good path to enabling themselves via the protolathe as it stands. This just nerfs that - to no benefit. The station already has to deal with peace antags and boring rounds because antags get robusted by security before having a chance to cause any conflict. This change just makes those holes deeper. When I am a rev in the science department, I arm revs from that protolathe. When I am a rev from another department I seek an R&D collaborator to arm my guys secretly. This change would just get in my way and make a thing more difficult that is already plenty difficult to accomplish without getting caught and ended. I say nay to this, too.

4) Sabotage of guns? Why? This would be something that happened one out of 100 rounds and wouldn't even lead to anything cool. No thanks.

This sounds like a valid-hunter's wet dream, to me. "Look, it just got way harder for antags to arm up. lol that means we 'win' more often!".

Is your main a security toon? Are you a malf player or someone who would be generally be unaffected by this? It seems like you're throwing a suggestion without really considering the consequences for the department. I'm just not a fan.

Thanks for addressing my questions.

Firing pins are a bad idea - I've played with similar stuff and it just makes R&D something EVEN LESS people will bother with... making Robotics the only worthwhile job in science besides maybe Toxins, before someone suggests nerfing that, too. "Only RD can unlock phoron canisters" etc.

 

So, by your admission, this is a proposed, rather major change, to a department you don't really play all that much

 

Science is like my second/third most played job - a close match to medical. I'd say I have over a hundred/150 hours of each on aurora. and at least 300 on my main job, which is mining. - I play this game a LOT

 

Sabotage of guns? Why? This would be something that happened one out of 100 rounds and wouldn't even lead to anything cool. No thanks.

You just described 99% of SS13: How often do you see an antag using artifacts? How often do you see hellchems, or people sabotaging lightbulbs or power cells?

 

"Look, it just got way harder for antags to arm up. lol that means we 'win' more often!".

 

That's just factually incorrect. it makes it way harder for Non Antags To arm up. any resourceful antag should be able to get a firing pin with ease.

[MoondancerPony]

Not a fan of this. If Johnny PhD is 'printing off the whole armory' then you can ahelp them. Don't administrate via code.

If it's an emergency and they're doing it for a good reason (rare, I know) this just hamstrings their effectiveness. RnD prototypes exist presumably to be tested. Making them impossible to test without outside help is a backwards way to operate.

 

I don't think I have anything else to add to this, this is basically all I have to say. Ahelp it if it's a problem, I don't believe this is necessary or a good mechanic.

[Arrow768]

As explain by OP, it only slightly limits the antags.

But it will limit the unauthorized use of weapons by crew members outside of science.

I very much like the idea of pins that only work on a certain alert level / under certain conditions.

I also like the possibility that it is now possible to sabotage weapons almost unnoticeable to the person using them, until its too late.

Therefore I completely support the addition of firing pins.

[MoondancerPony]

It will only hinder people who want to use them legitimately. In cases where people are going to abuse them, they'll either exploit/break it or find something else to abuse. This is an administration/player problem, not a code problem, and this is definitely not a good solution for it.