[Resolved] Staff Complaint - Pratepresidentn - Dishonest/Unfair Warning

[hivefleetchicken]

BYOND Key: Hivefleetchicken

Staff BYOND Key: Pratepresidenten

Game ID: Sorry guys, no idea. The date and time was nine days ago, 10/11/17 at 8:43:41 server time though.

Reason for complaint: I was an engineer. I joined to the station, and after a short while of apparently some serious emergencies happened in the brig. Some officers were screaming bloody murder over the radio about needing into the vault, and I decided I wanted to assist them. So I went into the brig but obviously couldn't open any of the doors. I found one that wasn't powered and opened it with a crowbar, and lo and behold, inside I witness a bunch of corpses of officers. Next to them was a cargo technician and a bartender (who Prate lies about in the warning, saying they were sec officers) decked out in guns and contraband. They take a look at me and ask me to join them in their hostile takeover, and I politely refuse, having no reason to support them. I run to engineering and offer to protect one of my fellow engineers since she's a female, merely a lore thing since my character was an Unathi. I went back to the brig to see if there were any survivors, and I found two. There were two officers there, raiding the armory for guns, looking to maybe take back order. I joined them, picked up a gun, and asked them how to shoot and pump it. I tried my best to properly roleplay that I didn't know how firearms worked, but about five seconds into that, two lings attacked us out of nowhere. I tried to talk them down, something Prate says I didn't do at all, but I said something along the lines of "I am afraid to say that there are people who will attack you on sight", and began to back away. Then the officers popped out and shot them, and I helped. I did so while running, since I WASN'T supposed to be a great fighter. However, instead, I found myself cornered against the airlocks at the other end of security, and decided that my only way out would be through the door I originally opened with a crowbar. I bit my cheek and ran back towards where they were, and was instantly engaged in another firefight with them. This time, there was no talking, and I tried to run STRAIGHT past them to get to the maintenance door I had opened. Instead, both of them got in my way, and in an extremely quick and brutal firefight in maintenance, where I was trying to flee, I ended up shooting them both to death.

I called for help, saying there had been a terrible massacre, of course, and then one of them resurrected. I merely laid there, paralyzed with fear, screaming "T-THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE!" and allowed them to kill me with a few clicks of resist, so that it was fair.

Then I got pinged, and without much success in explaining every thought process, Prate slapped me with a warning. I didn't actually know how to check my warnings, since for some reason I don't get notifications when I have received them or have unacknowledged ones, so I never got to see it.

However, this was the warning:

 

 

I'm not sure why I received this given the context, and I'd like it removed. All of my attempts to roleplay my character's limited skill with weaponry, attempts to talk down the attackers and avoid conflict, attempts to flee, and my roleplay of allowing defeat out of fear RP were COMPLETELY overlooked in the adminPMs, all because I happened to pull some luck and kill my attackers when it came down to a purely mechanical firefight. Was I warned for being good at clicking their sprites when it came down to it? Am I expected, when I am cornered, and without options for proper fear/death RP (which I showed I was capable of when I let them kill me when they came back to life), and no way of avoiding the gunfight, to just let myself die? I fought back when it was utterly necessary, and apparently that was reason to warn me. I vehemently seriously disagree.

Evidence/logs/etc: I can't even provide the game ID because for some reason I don't get notifications for receiving warnings. I had no idea I had this warning until now, and didn't think to save logs. Sorry. Only evidence will be in the logs.

[Pratepresidenten]

Alright, first off: I dont appreciate that you say Im lying and that Im being dishonest. So please, can that shit in the future. I observed the incident, and they had officer gear on, so I assumed such as there was a lot of logs I had to rummage through to get the information I needed, so yes, thats completely my bad.

Secondly: You are completely missing the point of the warning here. I warned you over the fact that you took down and executed two armed hostiles as an electrician with zero combat experience. You tried talking them down? Thats fine, you're entitled to try. But what isnt fine, is that you emptied your laser carbine into the bartender, before swapping to your shotgun and blasting the cargotech with killer efficiency.

Not to mention after killing them both, you walked back to the person you lasered to death and pelted them point blank with a shell.

Then you radio in that you've killed them, which you repeat three times after, really getting the point across that you had killed them.

And shortly after, you say this in deadchat:

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : i shoulda executed the fucking ling

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : the ling team attacked me in the brig and i had a shotgun someone had literally just taught me to shoot

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : and i killed all of em

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : gored heads

 

So when you say that you pulled some luck and you got warned for being good at clicking their sprites, that is a load of bullshit and you know it.

As I told you in PMs, you are a robust fucker, you're stupidly good at combat mechanics, but you utilized this to put your unskilled electrician grossly out of character by killing two armed hostiles with brutal efficiency.

That, is what this warning is about.

[hivefleetchicken]

EDIT: ((just turned on my comp and apparently this was a draft that never actually got posted, wow fuck))

Unfortunately I still don't see how those logs, or your explanation, justifies me being warned. The fact that, when met with zero possibilities for RP, and cornered in a situation where there is nothing that matters except your skill, I am expected to just not be good at the game, really rubs me the wrong way. Forgive me if there's some other meaning I'm not getting from this, but as it stands that is the only meaning I have been able to pry from this.

I 100% get that I was an engineer that round and didn't have weapon expertise. But I'm not sure why I should be punished if, when push comes to shove, I actually try my best to survive a firefight based on my clicky-clicky prowess once my knowledge of firearms and aversion to conflict has properly been roleplayed.

Literally everyone does that. Once RP is out the window, and the engagement is a purely mechanical life or death shootout, I have not ONCE in my entire time here seen someone fall flat on their face and scream "Oh right! I'm a bad shot!" and just stand still, shooting to miss, screaming all the while they're wordlessly shot to death, when they have two guns on them. They might be caught off guard, or think they can surrender, but never have I seen anyone, surgeon, roboticist, botanist, assistant, grab two guns, run into people shooting them fully expecting a firefight, and then take the time to admit they don't know how to use a weapon while their opponents kill them without a care or bat of an eye.

I called to the AI that I was a friendly and had killed the two usurpers because one of the officers had already mistaken me for one of them and shot the shit out of me. I wanted to make it completely clear when I got help that I wouldn't be executed for being in possession of weapons. Then I asked for medical help, and the ling got up and I just surrendered to my fate.

As I see it, I am being punished for surviving a shootout miraculously. All of the RP that I did beforehand to avoid it was unsuccessful, all attempts to escape were unsuccessful, so when I finally am locked in a shootout, and by some miracle I succeed (it was a miracle RNG-wise, I somehow gibbed one of their heads with a perfect point blank headshot that instantly killed them), it's still my fault. I will pretend to not know how to shoot in the event that roleplay is still possible, sure, but there was no promise of that at the moment, and I was merely concerned with surviving at that point, as were they. I fail to see what about this is worth a warning.

I don't know why me describing the events as they happened in dsay and acknowledging that I did too much roleplay makes anything I've said "a load of bullshit", and I'm not sure I appreciate that tone regarding my points when the evidence you have provided to rebut them (these four lines of dsay where i say "dang, i shoulda gotten gooder," and "i was attacked and killed them"?) doesn't really explain anything.

The only thing worth noting is that, looking back on this, I did indeed shoot the ling while they were downed with a point blank buckshot. However, I did that because on my screen they appeared to still be alive, unlike the other guy that I managed to kill. They were gasping, and I was in terrible pain from being shot both by them and a security officer nearby who mistook me for one of them, and I only had one bullet left, so I fired once to empty it, executing them.

In a situation in which my character has just been lethally engaged, however, and is not a security officer responsible for properly capturing and brigging people who are terrorists, and instead just a guy who's had an attempt on his life with much less professional restraint, I don't understand how it's bad roleplay to take a life either.

If I was a cop, I'd shoot a guy to bring him down, call for backup, have him arrested, etc. If I was a civilian getting shot, I would have no restraint and go utterly trigger happy if I had two assault weapons on me at the time of an attack. I think it's entirely realistic for me to not show the restraint an officer would if someone's made an attempt on my life if I have no means or training of non-lethally capturing them (or any obligation to).

[Scheveningen]

If I was a cop, I'd shoot a guy to bring him down, call for backup, have him arrested, etc. If I was a civilian getting shot, I would have no restraint and go utterly trigger happy if I had two assault weapons on me at the time of an attack. I think it's entirely realistic for me to not show the restraint an officer would if someone's made an attempt on my life if I have no means or training of non-lethally capturing them (or any obligation to).

 

it's a good thing that police academies just updated their standards to start denying loose cannon personalities, and that you're not a cop. Cops do more harm than good to their communities with this kind of "assess and eliminate" attitude rather than a "protect and serve" one.

Because I think it's pretty terrifying what you said about not showing any restraint and going completely trigger happy if you had two "assault weapons" on your person. That's really not someone I want with any degree of authority especially with your notoriety of generally putting yourself into positions of aggression to engage in wholesale slaughter more times than not actually doing so.

This is less excusable as a non-antagonist with no combat skills or experience to speak of. It breaks any semblance or point to roleplaying conflict if we allow just anyone to partake in risking themselves to dealing with physical threats head-on. It devalues the entire experience and gentrifies it to the point where antagonists don't enjoy creating conflict anymore because they know that there will be the odd crewmember that suddenly busts out their extensive OOC combat knowledge to click sprites horizontal rather than prioritizing reasonable character goals.

Something I'm sure you know of but probably don't care about by now, seeing as how you put yourself into this position to earn the warning in the first place.

[DatBerry]

why didn't you like, break a window and escape from the other side? hell you could shoot down a wall or smack an airlock open.

Self defense is only valid as long as you have no route of escape, you had already disengaged and chose to go through that one maintenance airlock you opened that would purposefully put the valids between you and escape, as an engineer you could've easily exited via atleast 3 other airlocks. hell all you need is a crowbar and fire extinguisher from the walls to exist through any unbolted airlock.

[Garnascus]

Ill check this over and make a call tomorrow sometime. I was going to last night but work kept me later a lot longer due to someone calling out. Got some stuff to take care of IRL.

[Coalf]

The fact that, when met with zero possibilities for RP, and cornered in a situation where there is nothing that matters except your skill, I am expected to just not be good at the game, really rubs me the wrong way. Forgive me if there's some other meaning I'm not getting from this, but as it stands that is the only meaning I have been able to pry from this.

I 100% get that I was an engineer that round and didn't have weapon expertise. But I'm not sure why I should be punished if, when push comes to shove, I actually try my best to survive a firefight based on my clicky-clicky prowess once my knowledge of firearms and aversion to conflict has properly been roleplayed.

 

Literally everyone does that.

Then ahelp it, it's against the rules.

 

I don't understand how it's bad roleplay to take a life either.

 

Here, this should answer the basic questions.

[Azande]

Admittedly, I was not involved, but I had a similar situation as security.

A non-antag SHAFT MINER unathi had geared up in a mining RIGsuit, gotten advanced prototype weapons from RnD during a Merc/Heister round. When Sec and ERT had retaken control of the situation, he refused to hand over the gear and started a fight, I ahelped but the initial response from admins was that their behaviour was valid due to the threat (they were hunting antags in heavy experimental weapons and gear?) and I never was updated on what happened after that. It is extremely disconcerting to not see this issue dealt with universally if Hive was warned for this, I do hope the other player I handled was (it did not sound like they were) . I

[Scheveningen]

Similar, but I'm not sure if it's too relevant. Not every case will be handled the same especially since there's a score of us in numbers which means any of us may have different methods and different opinions based on independent contextual situations.

Even if it wasn't dealt with so that it was consistent in line with our other decisions, the primary issue is we do not enforce what an okay niche situation would be. Ultimately, it doesn't make what Hive did any less wrong though.

I should probably also note that Hive was forumbanned for pitching lies in a complaint in addition to the swathe of notes on-server and conduct relating to the forums that he had. So he won't be able to reply further in this complaint. Not really anyone's business but this is why this complaint may end up not going anywhere in the near future.

[Tomiix]

I want to preference this response by just reminding everyone I don't have access to the rounds logs and did not witness this event, and all statements I make is from me constructing the scene in my head from the accounts of everyone who had testified to seeing it.

I think it would be appropriate to call what hive did 'assuming motive' and less lying. That doesn't change the fact that hive doing so was uncalled for, and probably more so an emotional response to the barrage of bans/warnings he has been getting recently. Prate's warning to 'can that shit' seems appropriate, but it was also important for prate to recognize (and he did) that he made an assumption himself that changes the tone of the warning significantly. Besides that statement there is nothing else in his complaint that can be construed as a lie.

Hive is currently banned from all official Aurora channels. Banning him from the forums and not giving him the proper ability to continue his complaint, defend against this warning and his other bannings is not a proper way of doing things. Especially when Hive is fairly liked in the community and is more often than not a good roleplayer. I feel like that IS the community's business because this is the only proper appeal channel and unless he is griefing the forum in some way or violating the rules in a serious way a ban from the forum is to never be able to defend yourself in these cases again. So I ask you reconsider that as it seems they resolved the one issue that was in contention for the 'lying' issue. (lie singular, not lies plural like it is suggested in Scheveningen post. Unless Scheven wants to bring up an issue with something else Hive said that Prate didn't.)

As for the meat of this appeal the points that Coalf pointed out are what matters here, and when judging whether or not Hive is guilty of those things, I would like to raise a few objections.

No power gaming: So firstly, this fight took place in a small corridor where there isn't much room for error him making the shots and killing them with the type of weaponry he had makes sense. Especially if it was a fair firefight. I don't have the logs, and I wasn't there to see it. But if he had them out gunned and they were shooting at him he might not of survived going into a maintenance shaft. Secondly, what round type was this? Were they revolutionaries (as is implied by them wanting to 'take over' so I assume the round was ling+rev)? As revs, don't they only have the combat experience of their roles as well? Wouldn't of the entire fight been a unskilled matchup, and therefore even matchup when it's a civilian and a engineer role vs another engineer? Sure they had numbers but it seems like from the description of this event Hive had the arms. While yes I agree Hive is in the wrong mindset and was looking to win the fight once it came down to the only option being the fight, and I might be willing to speculate he is the type to want to fight over running away, that second part is speculation. If hive was truly in a position where he thought there was no other option than to fight, I feel like it is unfair to ask people to 'not be good at the game' when it comes to the fighting mechanic. As it takes away from the game and discourages the genuine skill that is required to be good at fighting in this game. It is also just difficult once the adrenaline gets going and you are in the heat of the moment to flip off your switch of being good at a game. If he was cheesing the system and fighting in unrealistic ways to achieve better results because of the engine that is one thing, but just being good at clicking spacemen when forced to play out the fight should not be a crime, and could be roleplayed as the character getting lucky and just having the better guns. I think it would be reasonable to ask hive in the future to spread his shots around and work on being inefficient when there isn't a lot of pressure or if he is premeditating something, but in the moment being stuck in your fight or flight response I feel like that is a tall order for anyone.

Restrict yourself to your character's knowledge: I don't believe it requires much training to point somewhere and shoot, and as long as the range was reasonably close, and his character was shown how to reload and activate/pump the guns properly, I feel like emptying the one magazine and shotgun each is appropriate. Though long term knowledge like finding ammo or knowing how to repower it would be outside of his knowledge. It is hard to RP missing realistically when hallways are only two tiles wide, that is a hard shot to miss.

You must maintain character at all times: Lies into my defence of the prior. I at least from reading all of the points of view here don't believe he was never not in character. It would of been nice if hive would of been able to maybe not be as efficient and spreading the damage out, elongating this fight. But I feel like there is good biological and psychological reason why that is hard for a normal person to do.

Metagaming: I don't know if calling 'i am good at the mechanics and am just by nature very dexterous with my clicks' metagaming. Again I don't feel like the outside knowledge benefited him at all unless a witness to the fight saw Hive using tactics that abuse the game engine or byonds mechanics (complex binds, character positioning or some other means of unrealistic movement or action.)

killing in self defence... - Killing in self defence is not prefered, but if not given an alternative, I feel like being shot at by two people is good enough to trigger fight or flight, and if hive couldn't identify an escape, then fight he could do. It even seems like he was about to go into roleplaying the aftereffects appropriately before he was shot down. So unless a clear and easy escape was present that is my only contention with this one.

Some other things I wanted to rebut, since I am finding myself being devil's advocate here.

Then you radio in that you've killed them, which you repeat three times after, really getting the point across that you had killed them.

And shortly after, you say this in deadchat:

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : i shoulda executed the fucking ling

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : the ling team attacked me in the brig and i had a shotgun someone had literally just taught me to shoot

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : and i killed all of em

Ghost/Hivefleetchicken : gored heads

 

So when you say that you pulled some luck and you got warned for being good at clicking their sprites, that is a load of bullshit and you know it.

Someone roleplaying the shock of having killed somebody and then after they were dead being excited about events that just occurred to them is hardly hard evidence of a power gaming motive.

 

If I was a cop, I'd shoot a guy to bring him down, call for backup, have him arrested, etc. If I was a civilian getting shot, I would have no restraint and go utterly trigger happy if I had two assault weapons on me at the time of an attack. I think it's entirely realistic for me to not show the restraint an officer would if someone's made an attempt on my life if I have no means or training of non-lethally capturing them (or any obligation to).

 

it's a good thing that police academies just updated their standards to start denying loose cannon personalities, and that you're not a cop. Cops do more harm than good to their communities with this kind of "assess and eliminate" attitude rather than a "protect and serve" one.

Because I think it's pretty terrifying what you said about not showing any restraint and going completely trigger happy if you had two "assault weapons" on your person. That's really not someone I want with any degree of authority especially with your notoriety of generally putting yourself into positions of aggression to engage in wholesale slaughter more times than not actually doing so.

This is less excusable as a non-antagonist with no combat skills or experience to speak of. It breaks any semblance or point to roleplaying conflict if we allow just anyone to partake in risking themselves to dealing with physical threats head-on. It devalues the entire experience and gentrifies it to the point where antagonists don't enjoy creating conflict anymore because they know that there will be the odd crewmember that suddenly busts out their extensive OOC combat knowledge to click sprites horizontal rather than prioritizing reasonable character goals.

Something I'm sure you know of but probably don't care about by now, seeing as how you put yourself into this position to earn the warning in the first place.

 

I feel like you misunderstood hive's point. He was saying BECAUSE he is not an officer that means he lacks restraint. The funny thing about his comment is that he is actually incorrect, if the police were in a situation where they walked up into two armed individuals, and they turned to shoot them they would of been within their full legal right to kill both individuals. Officers would have greater restraint with compliant individuals, but when lethal weapons are used, they aren't used to disable. This isn't assess and eliminate, this is self defence. I also don't see what is terrifying about someone who is untrained and never touched a weapon before just holding down the trigger and turning away, which is a response that is believable for a untrained person to do.

In more situations than not I have seen hive get shot at, but simply evade them and type responses, and give more leniency than normal, especially in a one on one scenario. Where others would get shot at and talking becomes over. However when he gets shot by multiple people and it simply isn't possible to do that I see him defending himself being reasonable.

I would like to give Hive the same respect as Prate and not assume he is outright lying when he says he was defending himself, and he had no other choice but to be forced back into a area where he knows hostiles are at. If that is the case and a review of the round shows that, then he was not forcing himself to deal with the threat head on. If he was valid hunting and using his skill at the game to defeat the antags and 'win' that would be a understandable statement, but it just doesn't seem like that was the case here. He made it clear he didn't want trouble with those people, and they engaged in a firefight when they bumped into him again.

Your last comment again is assuming that hive has some kind of ill motive, and that he looks to get warnings or just tries to get away with his 'bad behavior he knows he has'.

 

why didn't you like, break a window and escape from the other side? hell you could shoot down a wall or smack an airlock open.

Self defense is only valid as long as you have no route of escape, you had already disengaged and chose to go through that one maintenance airlock you opened that would purposefully put the valids between you and escape, as an engineer you could've easily exited via atleast 3 other airlocks. hell all you need is a crowbar and fire extinguisher from the walls to exist through any unbolted airlock.

 

How quickly can one break the window, the girders, and the second window in this game when being shot down by two people? I also don't see how it's unreasonable for someone to in a panic go through established and official passageways.

[Tomiix]

An addendum, I also feel like this is not the appropriate board that hive should of posted to, and I fully understand that as he put this as a staff complaint that it is Prate's judgment being put at discussion here. Again that does not change my aversion to silencing him before this complaint is closed. As banning him from the forums permanently is essentially a permaban from Aurora in general for what might of been a honest mistake and knee jerk response, that again the two seemed to resolve. Which is the primary concern.

If knowledge outside of mine finds that he was going out of his way to use his meta knowledge, and he was gaming this then the warning might be otherwise deserved, the main point I don't want to detract from is banning people from the forum and silencing them when it might not be totally appropriate to do so. It gives moderation a bad look and that is a misunderstanding that I don't think anyone wants to happen.

[DatBerry]

How quickly can one break the window, the girders, and the second window in this game when being shot down by two people? I also don't see how it's unreasonable for someone to in a panic go through established and official passageways.

 

From what I understood, they were in front of maintenance, hive had retreated after the first engagement into inside of security and they were out of his screen range.

now there 3 maintenance entrances and they are all isolated, if he had left them out of view range, he'd have time to pick another route and think.

 

Again that does not change my aversion to silencing him before this complaint is closed. As banning him from the forums permanently is essentially a permaban from Aurora in general for what might of been a honest mistake and knee jerk response, that again the two seemed to resolve. Which is the primary concern.

 

He was informed he can continue to reply the complaints via a proxy account, but otherwise banned. he can appeal with said proxy account or a PM on discord.

the reason for the ban was claiming there's a decision between the admins to never promote delta to anything past mod, which was aimed at making delta explode at the admins. I wasn't there when the decision was made, and I believe it was mostly discussed by the admins, it's likely this wasn't the first nor second incident.

[Garnascus]

The letter of the rules appears to be on prate's side here hive. Coalf summed it up a lot more eloquently than i could have. Looks pretty justified to me.

[Hackie]

Hive is forum banned at the moment, and he can't post. I do not condone, nor do I involve myself with the following statement:

@garnascus you mean by being a cunt? Yeah man he was pretty eloquent at doing absolutely nothing to read my post and showing unapplicable screenshots of rules that i didnt break condescendingly and not offering anything but a beautiful indication that hes never gotten laid. Maybe if you were not so frightened by me you would actually make an attempt to defend the decision instead of incorrectly assuming I've broken rules. I dont care either way, peace out. Dickhead.

 

Here's the screen cap for authentication.

[Garnascus]

Locking and archive. Warning deemed valid.