[+1 dismissal]Give Security Adequate Hearing Protection.

[Rushodan]

Suggestion:

Give security the option/replacement of earpieces with a radio headset. These headsets would mechanically stop them from being affected (combined with the sunglasses) from flashbangs and loud noises, acting as an additional level of protection.

Why would this be worth adding?

Lore wise- Every officer is handed firearms and flash-bangs by default and may be expected to train with them or use them indoors. This over time would cause (potentially) irreversible damage to hearing, most likely breaking various Biesel health and safety regulations. To counteract this NanoTrasen ensures that every officer is given adequate hearing protection in the form of radio headsets - dual rolling ear defenders and earpieces into one handy blue-tinted package.

Mechanic wise- It is fairly difficult at the moment to secure hostile antags with non lethal means and typically flashbangs are ignored for other more-effective methods such as tear gas or less than lethals - leading to other players being messed up for an extended duration for little to no reason (usually happens with less experienced HoS and officers). My suggestion would bring flashbangs back into the mix as a less risky option for the officers to use and hopefully would make noise-based attacks less effective against the people that have to deal with them. Using a headset would have the disadvantage of taking up both left and right slots on your ears - removing the ability to use some fluff items and pens there.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Guest

[Candelaio]

+1 from me here, in all reality you should be given this as a given for security as you are expected to discharge flashbangs and firearms in an enclosed environment, not having proper hearing protection would really cost you in the long run. This is coming from someone who doesn't even consider playing sec, but they really should get this.

[Coalf]

Weapons have weaknesses, Tasers take multiple shots to horizontal someone and are useless against armored targets, batons have limited charge and require melee, Gas can be avoided and gasmask are widely accessible, cuffs have a timer, EMP's only work on mechanical things, Bullets don't go through glass, lasers require a charger etc. etc.

No weapon is perfect, they all have a weakness, the weakness of a flashbang is that you can't use it when you're in the room with it, y'know

THE WEAKNESS OF EVERY GRENADE

With this you're basically removing all risks from flashbangs making them the flextape

of security problems outside of Mercs/Raiders/RIG suited traitors.

-1

[Rushodan]

Weapons have weaknesses, Tasers take multiple shots to horizontal someone and are useless against armored targets, batons have limited charge and require melee, Gas can be avoided and gasmask are widely accessible, cuffs have a timer, EMP's only work on mechanical things, Bullets don't go through glass, lasers require a charger etc. etc.

No weapon is perfect, they all have a weakness, the weakness of a flashbang is that you can't use it when you're in the room with it, y'know

THE WEAKNESS OF EVERY GRENADE

With this you're basically removing all risks from flashbangs making them the flextape

of security problems outside of Mercs/Raiders/RIG suited traitors.

-1

 

Which would make flashbangs relevant as the stun time is very short and so by the time you enter the room again the person is back up and grabbing their weapon. Flashbangs are a risky rush weapon that are basically never used effectively - doing this change makes perfect ic sense and has the disadvantage of using up both ear slots. Just having the reason 'the flashbangs must had a glaring weakness' doesn't really seem like a counter if you want my honest opinion.

As a side note - in real life flashbangs are used while you are also in the room which I can provide evidence of if requested.

[LanceLynxx]

-1

No security force in the world uses any hearing protection because then they cannot hear other colleagues or the ambient.

That's why you have to think before you throw. It's a tactical weapon, not a run 'n gun.

-1 from me

[Tomiix]

Here is the issue.

The ISD are meant to be Corporate Police. As Security you are literally a beat cop who has the same authority as a officer in Biesel when on duty on station. You don't see police officers running around with tactical headgear like this in person. Hell you don't see cops carrying around flashbangs on regular patrol. However the nature of what our ISD is guarding can provide allowances for upgrades in security measures.

+1 if it is a limited quantity armory option

-1 if it is something that every officer can have. I feel if this was the case it would only encourage ISD to literally have selective hearing and act more like a tacticool military then a police force.

[Rushodan]

Here is the issue.

The ISD are meant to be Corporate Police. As Security you are literally a beat cop who has the same authority as a officer in Biesel when on duty on station. You don't see police officers running around with tactical headgear like this in person. Hell you don't see cops carrying around flashbangs on regular patrol. However the nature of what our ISD is guarding can provide allowances for upgrades in security measures.

+1 if it is a limited quantity armory option

-1 if it is something that every officer can have. I feel if this was the case it would only encourage ISD to literally have selective hearing and act more like a tacticool military then a police force.

 

Hm - this could actually be a rather effective way of balancing things actually - with equipment being taken out as and when needed. I suppose it would be up to the devs if and when they would be permitted the additional protection

[Rushodan]

-1

No security force in the world uses any hearing protection because then they cannot hear other colleagues or the ambient.

That's why you have to think before you throw. It's a tactical weapon, not a run 'n gun.

-1 from me

 

If you used hearing protection irl, you would know it doesn't block all noise it just drastically reduces it and the effect/damage it can have on the ear drums. And yes, some security forces can and do use ear defence within the ears if loud noises are expected - typically indoors (you know, like the station) as sound tends to be amplified.

Note: As stated above flashbangs are exactly run and gun which I can provide evidence of. They are designed to be thrown into a room milliseconds before you enter to distract the bad guys as you enter the room. This is why police/special forces gas masks have special filters on them to reduce flash bang effects

[LanceLynxx]

If you used hearing protection irl, you would know it doesn't block all noise it just drastically reduces it and the effect/damage it can have on the ear drums. And yes, some security forces can and do use ear defence within the ears if loud noises are expected - typically indoors (you know, like the station) as sound tends to be amplified.

 

I have used ear protection IRL and it makes it harder to understand people speaking, and next to impossible to hear anything other than internal noises of breathing or your own voice in your head cavities when you speak.

Sec forces use hearing protection when they are going in loud. As in, explosive breaching. NOT flashbangs. If you need protection from your own flashbangs, you are doing it VERY wrong, IRL and in game.

That's why you have to pick the placement, timing, and throw location.

[Rushodan]

If you used hearing protection irl, you would know it doesn't block all noise it just drastically reduces it and the effect/damage it can have on the ear drums. And yes, some security forces can and do use ear defence within the ears if loud noises are expected - typically indoors (you know, like the station) as sound tends to be amplified.

 

I have used ear protection IRL and it makes it harder to understand people speaking, and next to impossible to hear anything other than internal noises of breathing or your own voice in your head cavities when you speak.

Sec forces use hearing protection when they are going in loud. As in, explosive breaching. NOT flashbangs. If you need protection from your own flashbangs, you are doing it VERY wrong, IRL and in game.

That's why you have to pick the placement, timing, and throw location.

 

Except you are supposed to be entering the room as the flashbangs are going off irl - which I can provide evidence of (as I have stated for the third time). But yes - I agree with you that perhaps if implemented they could be preserved in the lower armoury for when the situation calls for them as a sort of balance affect.

[Coalf]

Which would make flashbangs relevant as the stun time is very short and so by the time you enter the room again the person is back up and grabbing their weapon.

An interesting theory, but will it hold up?

Let's find out on Mythbusters.

Here it is point-blank, it makes no difference if I'm holding it in hand or if I have it right at my feet btw.

Here is distance without.

Here is distance with sunglasses.

 

This is not a short time, compared to a taser? Maybe.

But this is an AoE instant stun, you have plenty of time to run in and handcuff someone.

Byth musted.

 

As a side note - in real life flashbangs are used while you are also in the room which I can provide evidence of if requested.

Good thing we aren't a trained SWAT team.

[Rushodan]

Which would make flashbangs relevant as the stun time is very short and so by the time you enter the room again the person is back up and grabbing their weapon.

An interesting theory, but will it hold up?

Let's find out on Mythbusters.

Here it is point-blank, it makes no difference if I'm holding it in hand or if I have it right at my feet btw.

Here is distance without.

Here is distance with sunglasses.

 

This is not a short time, compared to a taser? Maybe.

But this is an AoE instant stun, you have plenty of time to run in and handcuff someone.

Byth musted.

 

As a side note - in real life flashbangs are used while you are also in the room which I can provide evidence of if requested.

Good thing we aren't a trained SWAT team.

 

Flash stun time could be reduced by one-two seconds personally - I believed it was shorter as security never uses them much from what I have seen. Anyhow you can say they are not SWAT - true. But they are expected to deal with hostage situations, terrorist attacks or borders should they ever arise. Why is it a stretch to imagine they have the training of how to use all of the gear they are provided?

[sebkillerDK]

I like the idea of this, it sounds to me like a thing that we should have, but in limited quantity. (Locked in the armory to be used when needed perhaps).

It makes sense that you would have ear protection for someone where their work includes shooting weapons indoors at some point. Or using flashbangs ir other loud devices.

+1 from me. If the quantity of the item is moderated.

[Tomiix]

I need to agree with Shodan that since Nanotrasen prefers to hire ISD from military academies and provide for them an armed to the teeth armory that they intend for them to take SWAT like actions and defend from attacks from outside invaders.

ESPECIALLY because it is a science station for the highest earning megacorp in the galaxy that just so happens to have it's own nuke to blow it to smithereens it is so important.

But I also agree that it isn't hard to play around the stun distance, and six tiles is an acceptable distance for that powerful a stun.

[Coalf]

Flash stun time could be reduced by one-two seconds personally - I believed it was shorter as security never uses them much from what I have seen.

Then use them. You say it is such a weak tool that it requires an additional tool to be useful yet you don't use it yourself.

And tear gas works absolutely the same way, except it's even weaker yet people use it more. Why? Because it's widely available while flashbangs are in the armory, as they should be, because they're a BREACHING TOOL, if you have a hostage situation go ask for a flashbang and breach.

 

Anyhow you can say they are not SWAT - true. But they are expected to deal with hostage situations, terrorist attacks or borders should they ever arise. Why is it a stretch to imagine they have the training of how to use all of the gear they are provided?

 

Yes, Joe Danger your local assistant can become a security officer in 4 weeks and an exam.

[Rushodan]

Flash stun time could be reduced by one-two seconds personally - I believed it was shorter as security never uses them much from what I have seen.

Then use them. You say it is such a weak tool that it requires an additional tool to be useful yet you don't use it yourself.

And tear gas works absolutely the same way, except it's even weaker yet people use it more. Why? Because it's widely available while flashbangs are in the armory, as they should be, because they're a BREACHING TOOL, if you have a hostage situation go ask for a flashbang and breach.

 

Anyhow you can say they are not SWAT - true. But they are expected to deal with hostage situations, terrorist attacks or borders should they ever arise. Why is it a stretch to imagine they have the training of how to use all of the gear they are provided?

 

Yes, Joe Danger your local assistant can become a security officer in 4 weeks and an exam.

 

Perhaps this is an inconsistency within the lore that should be amended, rather than an argument against this suggestion? Considering everything I have listed is something security is supposed to do, including the amount of expensive equipment that resides on station that NT would take great steps to protect (they would and do have an almost paramilitary style security team).

[Coalf]

Or security should perhaps be less armed and majority of their armory removed so they're only suited to deal with threats they're expected to deal with as an ISD.

I.E Carps, Spiders, Violent mobs, Minor crimes and rogue crewmembers.

We have cargo, science why give all the solutions to security by default really?

But this isn't the point.

The point is flashbangs are fine as they are. And they are. Case and point.

[Rushodan]

Or security should perhaps be less armed and majority of their armory removed so they're only suited to deal with threats they're expected to deal with as an ISD.

I.E Carps, Spiders, Violent mobs, Minor crimes and rogue crewmembers.

We have cargo, science why give all the solutions to security by default really?

But this isn't the point.

The point is flashbangs are fine as they are. And they are. Case and point.

Because everything I have listed are things they are expected to deal with, even if its rare. Anyway please do not derail the thread Coalf - if you have any further reasons as to why ear defense for loud situations is a negative idea, feel free to list it below.

[Coalf]

Because everything I have listed are things they are expected to deal with, even if its rare. Anyway please do not derail the thread Coalf - if you have any further reasons as to why ear defense for loud situations is a negative idea, feel free to list it below.

 

Derail the thread?

You have provided NO DEFENSE to what I posted.

"The stun is too short" - The gifs prove it is not.

"We can't use it safely" - The gifs prove you can use it safely, all you need is sunglasses.

"I can't be in the same room as flashbang" - Yes you can, use sunglasses.

"Tear gas is more used" - It's a crowd control grenade, Flashbang is a breaching grenade.

"Tear gas is stronger" - No, it lasts longer, tear gas takes good 5 seconds before it starts taking effect you can easily run away and gasmasks are easily available to everyone, unlike sunglasses or space helmets.

Want a solution to not being deaf? Get earmuffs, they're in security and accessible to everyone.

[Scheveningen]

Verified filthy sec main here.

I don't see the security age thing as a problem. Someone has to start somewhere. Space may be relatively dangerous, but considering how most military forces allow drafting in various nations at 16, I dunno, it seems fairly consistent.

I also figure the NT exams require you pass over 80-85%. Which is not insignificant, that's a lot of information you need to retain to begin with, and that must transfer over as you pass and become an officer.

Onto the whole flashbang thing, 10 second stuns when you're unprotected is fucking huge, but rightfully so. I believe thermals/NVGs/mesons also mildly enhance the stun caused by flashbangs regardless of helmet protection (could totally be wrong), which is also something worth noting, but the concussion effect is substantially less of an issue. The combat hardsuit helmets (i.e. the syndies AND the combat hardsuit, in addition to the ERT/deathsquid suits) makes this a complete nuance, though, completely nullifying both effects regardless of goggle usage. The blinding still makes it a battle condition to be aware of.

This is softened with sunglasses which dumb it down to 5 seconds if point blank, three seconds if it's a bit further off, and at other distances it drops you for a brief second before you get back up again.

 

The ISD are meant to be Corporate Police. As Security you are literally a beat cop who has the same authority as a officer in Biesel when on duty on station. You don't see police officers running around with tactical headgear like this in person. Hell you don't see cops carrying around flashbangs on regular patrol. However the nature of what our ISD is guarding can provide allowances for upgrades in security measures.

 

Side-tracking again, but it's important I say this: Stop this meme. There are different paygrades of security officer for a reason. Not every sec officer is a naive green rookie named Baul Plart. They can be, but this should never be the expectation nor the standard (much as newfriends display otherwise and continually drag expectations of security much lower), considering how standards for security officer entry are not supposed to be low, NanoTrasen isn't retarded. As much as it would be amusing for us to have segways implemented only to be inevitably used for combat purposes, let's stop pretending "BAUL PLART, SECURITY OFFICER" is anything other than a meme because the only time you'd ever say security officers are mall cops is when a shitposty discussion is going on in the general discord and you want to contribute mild-mannered humor. This is not an argument on a Heavy Roleplay server where anyone is free to design their character from a degree of being barely qualified but qualified enough to a 15 year security department veteran or something, stop using it as such to push stupid arguments because you can't come up with a better rebuttal to a suggestion. Either that or stop posting, that would be fine too.

Also, if hostile antags are proving too difficult to secure using non-lethal means, it probably means the situation is far too untenable to resolve without killing them. To be less confusing: You probably should be killing antagonists proving themselves to be too dangerous to consider arresting and locking them up. Risk vs. reward needs to be weighed first when it comes to that sort of decision-making. Sorry, I'm sure it's fun for the wizard to have security bent over a desk like a Nevada casino groupie, but there comes a point where it slowly stops making sense to use the same level of force over and over again only for it to not work. If a problem needs to be put down after enough losses have been suffered or you anticipate it's only going to get worse, you should probably put down the little rabid doggie. Flashbangs are only so good, and you're using them improperly to begin with if you're trying to detain one guy. That's a waste of a flashbang, or rather, you're not maximizing its potential usage. Flashbangs are and will always be intended for group-based incapacitating and dispersion. Also great for flooring an entire room of civilians just to get to the one shitter causing trouble in a crowd. And for hostage situations, but only so you can pull out the hostage before you fill the other idiot's mouth full of lead. Pretty darn good in those situations. It's pretty darn bad when a flashbang backfires on you when you toss it at an antag and it either does nothing or even worse, he throws it back at you and then pins you to the floor like the doofus you are for failing to use the right tool for the job.

That being said, if we're willing to entertain this idea. On /tg/station, security is equipped with bowman headsets. They're distinct from other headsets due to the fact that they completely cover the ears and help to substantially reduce the concussion effect of friendly flashbangs being thrown. This is only particularly useful during rev rounds as nuke ops on /tg/ prefer to use explosives such as the MGL or !FUN! chemistry grenades for a more lethal edge, as an example.

It would probably be a very bad idea to entertain this sort of equipment that can be acquired roundstart on code green, as on /tg/station the code level automatically escalates to blue if the station detects antags. If it doesn't everyone can assume it's extended up until random events there end up inevitably spawning swarmers to ruin everyone's day.

It'd be interesting to see bowman headsets at least for auxiliary purposes, stowed in the armory. I'm sure they'd be super useful during riots. We don't really need them, though. It'd be nice, but, really? Seems more like a QOL change that would inevitably warp into some nasty powercreep if somebody decided to abuse it.

[AmoryBlaine]

I like the idea, but it's not for Code Green. I'd like, as Schev said it, about putting them or bowman headsets into the armory for use on Code Blue or Red. I can see it as being a "part" of the Riot gear set up so you'd be limited to three and I guess able to ship in more via Cargo.

+1 given that these aren't available round start for each Officer and Cadet.

[JMJ_99]

Sure you can argue whether sec is too heavily armed and push the your only mall cops meme but most rounds Sec is doing SWAT related task, it can also be assumed that they would be have ear defenders in supply in case of a state of emergency. Adding on to this Flashing bangs are rarely ever used and are mostly for hostage situations, I don't see this being abused if they are in limited supply and stored in the armory.

[Alberyk]

Security already has access to a pair of earmuffs, as well the helmets themselves that do offer protection aganst flashbang stuns, I see little point in this.

+1 dismissal.

[Rushodan]

Security already has access to a pair of earmuffs, as well the helmets themselves that do offer protection aganst flashbang stuns, I see little point in this.

+1 dismissal.

 

The point is earmuffs that can be used in a tactical situation to prevent hearing damage/stuns from loud noises/flashbangs while providing radio communications which are essential to security operations. There is a reason nobody touches the range earmuffs.

[Scheveningen]

Because they suck and wouldn't be reasonably used even to stop the concussion part of it because it cripples your ability to hear entirely.

If people wanted to entertain the idea of bowman headsets, the tradeoff could be that you could only hear your radio.