Contesting note: Coalf

[Jennalele]

BYOND Key: aimlessAnalyst

Staff BYOND Key: Coalf

Game ID: N/A

Reason for complaint: I've been in a several days long argument with Coalf now about my ability to play Swift as a chemist and paramedic. After I finally had gotten confirmation from Cake that this was okay and forwarded such to the rest of staff, the agreement that /I/ believed we had come to was that "Swift is capable of creating three mixtures to do its job: Dexalin Plus, Dermaline and Bicaridine. NOTHING else. EVER. It will ONLY do so if no other capable staff are present, or if it is asked to by its superior."

What I got in the note, however, phrased this as "Swift is allowed to do chemistry as their paramedic but only as an emergency, not to stock the fridge." This led to me getting jumped by staff again because this makes it seem like Swift should only be allowed to do chem if everything is already on fire and going to hell, in which case they can't because they need to be in the field doing the job they actually have.

The point of Swift being able to make those mixtures is to bolster its ability to respond effectively to emergencies and save lives. If doctors like JAIS can do first response, chemistry, virology, surgery, etc, I don't see why I'm getting constantly jumped over knowing my job and a fraction of another.

Evidence/logs/etc:

Original note:

 

"Edited" note:

 

Additionally:

 

Additional remarks:I'm not here to get further upset at anyone. I honestly just want my note cleared up, and to stop being harassed every round over things that I keep being told different things about, people saying "this is fine" one minute and others saying "this isn't fine" the next.

[Faris]

The point of Swift being able to make those mixtures is to bolster its ability to respond effectively to emergencies and save lives. If doctors like JAIS can do first response, chemistry, virology, surgery, etc, I don't see why I'm getting constantly jumped over knowing my job and a fraction of another.

 

This does seem a lot. I'll have someone look into this independently of the complaint.

[Ezuo]

Alright, I'll be handling this complaint/contesting. Give me a bit to look over everything, and I'll come back with what I find.

EDIT: Wait no, I'm not handling this particular complaint, I'm handling the thing about JAIS. Thanks for clearing that up Abo <3

[Coalf]

Well darn tootin' dangit, I've come to a bit of a different resolution with cake m'self and it was perhaps my fault that I didn't pry for further info.

 

 

You see the thing I focused on in that image is the "emergency" part, I.E "Literally nobody else can do this job so I shall do it" rather than the standard chemistry and that is perhaps my bad.

BUT

I'm not an unreasonable person, I took steps to let you get used to these new restrictions we set in place.

When you asked for a second opinion I called Alberyk which I frankly needn't do, he agreed with me. Even then I worded my vote that it is subject to change as I said that I'll speak with Cake, however I saw his comment in Lorechat about contacting certain people and thus I waited for him instead, which did arrive and I did change said note where he more or less agreed with me on the situation that was happening where you were stocking the fridge as a paramedic.

And let me shine a light on this issue, as this wasn't the matter of a single interaction and I certainly wasn't "hunting you down".

This all started way back, I have been below average on my server activity (Gotta love that RB6:Siege) and even if I do join the game I don't pay overt attention as I'm either playing my Mechatronic Engineer or ghosting antags since those tend to be the wrench in the rule machine most of the time, so I was not aware of Swift doing things, Rail being a surgeon or JAIS bypassing restrictions thus it might seem like I "Jumped" on you, but this was simply due to the fact that one thing attracted my attention and it led me to taking apart your whole tapestry.

One day however a message dropped in admin or moderator chat, can't remember which, where someone asked something along the lines of "can a paramedic deconstruct doors".

This peaked my curiosity and I started to explore, on the other side I found you, Jenn, not only saying in Msay "It's okay because you just rip out some electronics" to the at the time mod, but this ahelp was sent by the Chief Engineering who offered his help in deconstructing the door which you refused and told him you can do yourself.

While mechanically it is "ripping out some electronics", we also don't let non-engineers upgrade the SMES because "It's just changing a few breakers". It requires you to not only know you can do this, but to weld the door shut, locate the position of those electronics and successfully pry them out. This is on the level of hacking a door open.

But I trusted the judgment of said mod, thus I simply worded my displeasure in Mod Chat and quit pursuit.

However next time I was on server I got another ahelp, "Is the paramedic allowed to make chems to stock the fridge?" I wasn't sure at first so I looked at the medical guide provided by JB, "NEVER" it said, okay.

Thus I bwoink you, you once again bring it into Msay, okay, then you also take it into dsay because Kyres1 was present at the time and he supported you. You even called for a second opinion.

I bwoink Alberyk, he comes on agrees with me. At the time I had the guide JB provided, my thoughts and Alberyk's second opinion against you and Kyres1 so I assumed it was reasonable to note you. Yet still I was open to criticism and so I left it subject to change as I told you to contact Cake about it if you find it a problem who later contacted me about it.

You decided to cryo, leave the game for 20 minutes and then reconnect as another character.

Fast-forward a few days and it's dead-hour, the CE goes into cryo and you ahelp if you are allowed to setup the engine as "You don't want to get yelled at over radio", you asked for this because your IPC, Creatia, as you said yourself can only build things.

Me and Flim agreed on a no as it would be breaking character and instead I said I'm willing to join as a borg and set it up, I needed to look at engineering anyways at the time as I've never worked the job and wish to learn a bit about it.

So you decide to take your grievances to dsay where a player was asking about something, I think the CE, where you decide to call our restrictions "assbackwards".

Now at this point I admit I was angry, in my mind I extended my hand to you and you spat in my face for it. So I said "Pick one job and fucking stick with it, everyone else does it", which was on my end overly aggressive in hindsight.

Realizing that I immediately started typing up "If you're upset over these changes go to the forum and address the issue instead of calling them "assbackwards" because you don't like them, Abosh and everyone else worked very hard to create a base on which every player could agree on and that would be fair to everyone", note these are not precise quotes but the closest I remember them.

When I finished typing this I noticed you type, "Don't, I'm not in the mood for this" which made me even angrier as in my mind I saw this as you being able to call us out but us not being allowed to shoot back, I judged you're not made of glass and sent the above post having written the extra "Neither am I in the mood" to the beginning of this.

You responded by going to cryo, disconnecting and then joining back 20 minutes after as another character.

Later that day I explored your notes further and I found something very interesting, "Rail is allowed to be a psychologist and a surgeon", this is in your notes, however it relates to your tendency to make characters with wide skillsets and other people can see you int those jobs so I'm not afraid to share it.

I discussed this in administrator chat and a few people seemed to agree this was too much, however I withheld my judgment as this was note by [mention]nursiekitty[/mention] and not me and opted I'll bring it up with [mention]CakeIsOssim[/mention] and see if he agrees with me, after all I am stepping on his toes.

However Cake was one step ahead of me and contacted me we had the above discussion, I talked to Nursie and she agreed that Rail being a surgeon AND a psychologist is too much. As neurosurgery and psychology are about as related as shoe polishing and shoe making.

On the above I wrote the note.

This morning [mention]ShameOnTurtles[/mention] hits me like a blunt, saying that you're making "basic chems for EMT belt", I referred him the previous discussion with Cake and exclaimed my own personal distaste with EMT/Paramedics in general requireing Bicard/Dex+/Dermaline as these three chems basically make anyone that isn't a surgeon obsolete since they can fix anything. This had no relevance however as Flim told me and I admitted to.

I'll gladly change the wording of this note and I agree I misinterpreted it, thus you can consider the complaint resolved.

Response to additional notes:

So no, I wasn't harassing you, I was doing what I do, moderating. I am en equalist, if something bites the rules I'll swipe at it be it a player, lore developer or another moderator. Perhaps the fact you've never really experienced a serious bwoinking before this plays a part in you thinking I harassed you.

Furthermore I don't know why you said, "I'm not here to get further upset at anyone.", when you bring up JAIS to make yourself look like a bit less of an extreme, this is manipulation.

If you had an issue you should have either ahelped, made a player complaint or PM'd an admin instead of using them as a distraction.

Additionally,

Thanks to this Cake and Kyres have been pushed to work on a synthetic specification faster, making it easier for anyone in the future. to specify this and I've personally been told what I should consider a wide skillset or not regarding IPCs by Cake.

If you have further issues, https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=10337 this thread about jobhopping is

STILL OPEN FOR ANYONE WHO IS READING THIS AND YOU CAN EXPRESS YOUR THOUGHTS AND SUGGESTIONS IN THERE.

[Alberyk]

Hello, I will handle this complaint.

[TheSleepyCatmom]

Hello [mention]Coalf[/mention] . I'd like to point out, A Psychiatrist requires an MD in the first place. A psychiatrist with an MD specialization isn't as rare as you think it to be. Maybe being a Neurosurgeon is a little over the top, but it's not impossible nor should it be treated as such. Especially in a world such as this where IPCs can just immediately learn a specialization. Note the Psychiatrist in question would need to be rather old, perhaps in their late 40s to achieve this degree. Yet Rail is one of the oldest IPCs if I recall his discussion with Cake, and as such I'm 95% sure he'd have the time to get a Neurosurgeon specialization normally anyway.

Onto Swift, an IPC with a Paramedic specialization, I'm not so sure about this one but I don't see a problem with it. From my point of view, if there was no one else and they had the ability to, they can. But, honestly I do not agree with the Dexalin+. As it requires Phoron to mix Dexalin, I think this would be a little harder to mix ICly. If you can mix this, you can mix most medications that don't require Phoron, imo. But that's just me.

Anyway, a Paramedic IRL having knowledge of another medicinal field isn't unheard of, as Paramedics don't go through the same training Doctors do, and as such may still take that training and go through it at a later date. Learning from say, A Chemist or a Doctor in game wouldn't be impossible either.

[Coalf]

-Death by a thousand snips-

 

While a psychiatrist is yes, a licensed doctor a paramedic has a COMPLETELY different meaning and I mean COMPLETELY on a country by country basis, aditionally Nuerosurgery is an extremely specific and extremely dedicated thing and so far as many people I've discussed this they agreed it's a bit too much.

For example we do not distinguish between a Paramedic and an EMT, in some places there are no EMT's, in some places there are strange and weird amalgamations.

THIS is why we have the medical guideline, we are a server with made up rules and made up history. There are people from cultures all over the world and ergo someone had to set a certain standart for medical, which was set and I shall always reference it.

Furthermore I don't think it's fair that certain characters are allowed to jobhop while others are not, I dislike jobhopping in general and if it were up to me I'd forbid it completely, thus I can seem a bit more strict.

However a Surgeon is already a very contested role, if my memory servers correctly after the Medical Doctor it is the most picked medbay job and a character created SPECIFICALLY to play in that job should all in all have the right to be preffered when picking that job.

The whole power and excitement of SS13 relies on the jobs being important, on the fact that when a vitali link is missing the whole station operates slower.

When nobody can setup the engine, no power is generated. When the surgeon goes traitor? People are going to die. When mining falls down holes? No minerals are being made.

Wide skillsets inhibit this play and in the end gimp antags and their efforts to sabotage a round by simply going "No it doesn't matter you targeted surgeons specifically so it would be harder for security to recover, MY character can do it too."

I'd regard that as cheating.

[TheSleepyCatmom]

If this were a MRP server, maybe, but imo in HRP, you'll have those that're 'overqualified' for positions. If Rail were a CMO, we wouldn't have the discussion at all. It's almost expected for CMOs to do everything in medbay. If he were a Skrell, we also wouldn't be having this discussion. If we make exceptions for them, why not make exceptions for those that have been around long enough to learn a separate skillset than needed in their current position?

If you regard say, A Surgeon having say, Virology training, being a virologist when all surgeons are dead and doing surgery as cheating, there's a major problem with this. I will agree Neurosurgery is a little over the top, but again it's not, nor will it be impossible unless dictated by a head administrator, or changed by Jackboot in the Synth lore for their ability to learn or something.

'Strict' isn't 'fascist' when regarding roles. That's how I see it at least.

[Coalf]

If this were a MRP server, maybe, but imo in HRP, you'll have those that're 'overqualified' for positions. If Rail were a CMO, we wouldn't have the discussion at all. It's almost expected for CMOs to do everything in medbay.

It is specifically against rules to know "too much", and if you see CMO's doing practically every single job in medbay you should most likely ahelp it.

The role of a head allows you SOME flexibility but you are not only not expected to know every job but you are also discouraged, a head knowing every job just means it's some asshole who whitelisted to get extra access.

You should probably ahelp that, however do take in mind most CMO's simply have Chemistry/Surgery and skip out on every other job like Virology and Psychology which you don't see because those two cases rarely need to be treated. That is acceptible.

 

If he were a Skrell, we also wouldn't be having this discussion. If we make exceptions for them, why not make exceptions for those that have been around long enough to learn a separate skillset than needed in their current position?

That is arguable, but comparing a skrell to an IPC is like comparing a Tesla and a Jet Car.

Sure the Jet Car is way way faster but put it outside its lane and it crashes. The Tesla is reliable but not prone to going off-road.

Also we have yet to see a Skrell with a too wide skillset since the new update hit, most likely because skrell are "not in" right now.

 

If you regard say, A Surgeon having say, Virology training, being a virologist when all surgeons are dead and doing surgery as cheating, there's a major problem with this.

The cheating was too much perhaps yes, but what I called ""cheating"" is not against the rules so I most likely wouldn't be bwoinking for it, I shall bwoink when a skillset is considered too wide, I have already allowed certain individuals to jobhop when they provided a good enough explanation and backstory and there is a reason why I'm not the only admin you can message if you want to multi-job, we discuss these things.

 

I will agree Neurosurgery is a little over the top, but again it's not, nor will it be impossible unless dictated by a head administrator, or changed by Jackboot in the Synth lore for their ability to learn or something.

I have no idea what you tried to say here, sorry.

[TheSleepyCatmom]

I more meant by that, that it's not impossible IRL, so it shouldn't be impossible in game unless someone changes how Synths learn, or an administrator specifically bans it.

Anyway, regarding this, I've gotten my piece in. We've talked through it, and I think we both come to an understanding and we'll agree to disagree that the note was necessary.

[Jennalele]

Up until this point, I have been told different things by different people. I have been told, for instance, "You can play Rail as a psych-surgeon," only for Nursie to come back a few weeks later and say "Nevermind."

So I go to Cake, as she asked me to, to get clarification over what exactly is okay. He gives me the IPC guidelines which, as they are, should have cleared both characters. I bring them to Nursie as asked. And /then/ I'm told "hmm, this isn't right, I'm going to have to talk to some people."

I feel like I've been jerked around by the administration team over this non-stop, yes-no-yes-no. I feel like every time I am told to bring a reason to the table and do so, you look at it and move the goal-posts again.

If you were going to say no from the start, you should have told me. The entire reason I've been trying to fight this is because I keep being given the impression that it might be okay if I just prove it enough, but that's impossible if you keep kicking the goal line back a meter each time I get there. I'm being told different things from different people. I'm being told to get permission from certain people, then when I bring that permission, having it invalidated because it's no longer up to par in your eyes. I am being jerked the fuck about at this point and I honestly hope you can understand why I'm so frustrated as a result.

I also need to re-iterate that, with Rail particularly, I am now at a point where people know him for his specialties. I am often asked by Kyla Milne, for instance, to take care of cerebral trauma cases as they come in. This isn't just a footnote in his records I can erase, it's something I'm going to have to explain away somehow without damaging his reputation, because, once again, the goalpost was moved on me and what I was told was fine last week is now not okay this week, despite clear confirmation that it should be.

There has been a lot of other stress on top of this. A different note I don't agree with over a situation that killed an antag round that I won't get into. A player complaint. An incident report. All of this happened in a span of a week, and on top of that, having staff start jumping me for things I was earlier told were fine pushed me to a stress point of breaking and cryoing each time. Creatia I don't give a damn about, frankly. I was frustrated, tired, and not in the mood to argue. I vented a frustration and received what felt like a lecture, so I left to avoid saying something I would regret instead. I cooled down, and re-joined. I don't see how that, in itself, is an issue, and I don't see why it was brought up for any reason other than to perhaps make me look volatile or immature.

In conclusion...... If you just intend to say "no," regardless of what I tell you or can give you for my reasoning and clarifications regarding my characters, please, do so now and stop leading me on a wild goose chase.

[Faris]

In conclusion...... If you just intend to say "no," regardless of what I tell you or can give you for my reasoning and clarifications regarding my characters, please, do so now and stop leading me on a wild goose chase.

 

Just going to say this to avoid confusion. The complaints will go through either two routes.

Either a mutual agreement between you two is hashed out or the handling administrator will post their verdict. So even if he just says no, it's not the end of the road.

[mention]Jennalele[/mention] I do sympathize with your frustration here and regardless of the outcome here, will see about a way to improve this, to avoid certain things from repeating.

[LordRaven001]

Hey. [mention]Coalf[/mention] I've come here to give my contribution to this forum post regarding the discrepancies of the Psychiatrist/Neurosurgeon and Paramedic with knowledge on how to produce three chemicals.

Lets first talk about the Psychiatrists education standards today in real life, not four hundred and fifty two years in the future mind you. Psychiatrists are in Medical Professionals, they are in possession of an MD and a mandated board certification which they received through completing their Four-Five year specialty training. (Which covers Neurochemistry, Neurophysiology, The anatomy of the Brain.) Lets also mention on how Psychiatrists are overseen, at least in the US, by the Board of American Psychiatry and Neurology, which is more proof that the specialties in question are compatible, in-fact they are so compatible that its one of the most common dual-specializations in medicine is Psychiatry and Neurology or Psychiatry and Neurosurgery. A Psychiatrist is a Doctor who's main job focuses on the brain, determining what is wrong. In the future four hundred and fifty two years later the Sciences have no doubt advanced astronomically, literally and figuratively, that I speculate this wouldn't be a rare combination at all, no it would be quite common. Especially for an IPC who can be programmed and in mere minutes later be a fully qualified, functional and operational neurosurgeon.

Now onto the Paramedic knowing about THREE LIFE SAVING chemicals in which they no doubt received extensive training on how to administer, what is in it, what it conflicts with, and everything in between. I'm currently going through Paramedic Certification within the US which consists of learning about chemicals, how to administer chemicals, what the chemicals are made of, what the medical problems and other medications they conflict with are, while also learning advanced life-saving techniques. Four hundred and fifty two years in the future we would no doubt have advanced and refined our knowledge that it would be mandatory for a PARAMEDIC, which is the highest form of certification you can receive as a paramedicine professional, to know how to make life-saving chemicals. Not to mention an IPC, which would take what? One-two thousand lines of code to program into that little bugger so he knows how to make three chemicals? It would make sense.

Overall from my personal opinion as a current Paramedical professional (Advanced EMT) the IPC knowing how to make three and only three chemicals that could change the outcome of a patient would not be aboriginal, in-fact it would make the IPC more marketable and widely used because of that feature. When you're a Paramedic or Paramedical Professional seconds... seconds... are all that it takes to prevent someone from dying, and saving their life.

It would also be illogical to assume that a Psychiatrist could not specialize as a neurosurgeon, especially since Psychiatry focuses on the brain, what it does, how does it do that, how does it look like, whats wrong with it, Psychiatry isn't all about "Tell me, how do you feel" Its about figuring out how the anatomy of the patient is contributing to their psychological distress. They are Medical Professionals and qualified Medical Doctors who are experts on the brain.

[Coalf]

I agreed on the paramedics thing, I don't plan sending a personal perfumed letter to everyone saying I already accepted that was my mistake.

https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=8850

This is what I'm using and this is what I'll be using unless specified by deciding staff, JB or Cake respectively.

I do respect what you wrote, I read it and I aknowledge you know way more than me in this. I am not academically read or even casually on medical sciences.

However you could be Dr.Phil writing to me from CNN and I wouldn't back up on this, this is a game, there are standarts set by someone and I respect those standarts and enforce those standarts. I accept it is possible to do REALISTICALLY however REALISTICALLY cats don't sing.

And I am not willing to make an exception in any sort of PsychXSurgeon crossover.

Jenn I can't respond to you any other way than, you have to grit your teeth through it.

I didn't mean to "kick the ball away from you", instead I hoped to reach a consesus with Cake and you regarding the paramedic thing, I admitted it was my mistake I misinterpreted it, I don't know what else you want regarding that if I could do a frontflip I would.

My position on Rail Psych/Surg stands and at the time Nursie and Cake agreed with me, not sure if they still do but hey, admin decisions change, I'm only human, they're humans, you are human, investigations don't get postponed until both parties are unstressed, we seek to do them as best and as fast as possible.

Again, I fucked up, I said I fucked up, I said I'm willing to change the note.

But

No decision is concrete, everything is subject to change.

[Jennalele]

Then perhaps the medical regulations need to be altered to be slightly more reflective of actual realism, if that's what we're striving for here. Again, I'm tired of being left out of the loop, because while you all seem to have the full communication from start to finish, I only get told something's okay, then after an hour of deliberation, I get told _second-hand_ that that person's changed their mind instead.

But what I've gotten out of your response, Coalf, is that the little link you're clinging to like the holy grail here can instantly veto any and all reasoning, experience, IRL examples or IC circumstances. And that doesn't feel right. In fact, it feels more unrealistic and hampering to say "well the guide says no so no." I've lost count of how many examples have been brought up, but here's a few.

- IRL, Psychiatrist-Neurosurgeons are much more common than you seem to believe.

- A CMO could easily do psychiatry and all surgery just fine.

- A psychiatrist must also be an MD to begin with.

- Rail is an IPC. It isn't like he's been loaded with the entirety of the medical department's database. He knows two things which he has both programming for, and a decade's worth of utterly no-stop intensive study in specializing in.

- At this point, removing this would have serious IC effects as I would have to scramble for a reason to explain why Rail can no longer perform neurosurgery, that doesn't destroy his reputation or reliability.

I'm not going to get back into the "this was already discussed and cleared previously before you went takebacksies" again, but is all of this really veto'd by one medical guideline bit that says "no"? Why? For what reason is this so critically important that reasonable exceptions can never be made? Why are IPCs still being held to the same standard when I swear I thought I just had that discussion with [mention]CakeIsOssim[/mention], who's guidelines I screenshotted? Why, again, when I'm told to get permission from someone, do you return my affirmation of that permission with "we're going to go talk to them and change that"?

[Sytic]

I feel like this complaint is a mix of something that would be alright ICly clashing with something that an admin deems not alright OOCly, which potentially limits people from being able to Surgeon if someone like Rail is really good at it and can do it better than anybody because "robots." It's essentially discriminatory and makes people who play Humans inferior to those who play IPC's, which would tip the balance evermore into an IPC favor. However, I think the specifics matter in this argument: Rail is not a surgeon, broadly. They're a neurosurgeon, specifically, which I'll defer to LordRaven's post prior which has a lot more info than mine.

 

 

Hey. @Coalf I've come here to give my contribution to this forum post regarding the discrepancies of the Psychiatrist/Neurosurgeon and Paramedic with knowledge on how to produce three chemicals.

Lets first talk about the Psychiatrists education standards today in real life, not four hundred and fifty two years in the future mind you. Psychiatrists are in Medical Professionals, they are in possession of an MD and a mandated board certification which they received through completing their Four-Five year specialty training. (Which covers Neurochemistry, Neurophysiology, The anatomy of the Brain.) Lets also mention on how Psychiatrists are overseen, at least in the US, by the Board of American Psychiatry and Neurology, which is more proof that the specialties in question are compatible, in-fact they are so compatible that its one of the most common dual-specializations in medicine is Psychiatry and Neurology or Psychiatry and Neurosurgery. A Psychiatrist is a Doctor who's main job focuses on the brain, determining what is wrong. In the future four hundred and fifty two years later the Sciences have no doubt advanced astronomically, literally and figuratively, that I speculate this wouldn't be a rare combination at all, no it would be quite common. Especially for an IPC who can be programmed and in mere minutes later be a fully qualified, functional and operational neurosurgeon.

Now onto the Paramedic knowing about THREE LIFE SAVING chemicals in which they no doubt received extensive training on how to administer, what is in it, what it conflicts with, and everything in between. I'm currently going through Paramedic Certification within the US which consists of learning about chemicals, how to administer chemicals, what the chemicals are made of, what the medical problems and other medications they conflict with are, while also learning advanced life-saving techniques. Four hundred and fifty two years in the future we would no doubt have advanced and refined our knowledge that it would be mandatory for a PARAMEDIC, which is the highest form of certification you can receive as a paramedicine professional, to know how to make life-saving chemicals. Not to mention an IPC, which would take what? One-two thousand lines of code to program into that little bugger so he knows how to make three chemicals? It would make sense.

Overall from my personal opinion as a current Paramedical professional (Advanced EMT) the IPC knowing how to make three and only three chemicals that could change the outcome of a patient would not be aboriginal, in-fact it would make the IPC more marketable and widely used because of that feature. When you're a Paramedic or Paramedical Professional seconds... seconds... are all that it takes to prevent someone from dying, and saving their life.

It would also be illogical to assume that a Psychiatrist could not specialize as a neurosurgeon, especially since Psychiatry focuses on the brain, what it does, how does it do that, how does it look like, whats wrong with it, Psychiatry isn't all about "Tell me, how do you feel" Its about figuring out how the anatomy of the patient is contributing to their psychological distress. They are Medical Professionals and qualified Medical Doctors who are experts on the brain.

 

 

Overall, this distinction is very important, as it's an entirely roleplay focused one. Rail cannot do bullet shrapnel, (occasionally he takes out shrapnel located in the brain, but this is due to game mechanics and the whole "roots around in their head!" system we have) Rail cannot fix or mend bones, Rail cannot do internal bleeding. For all intents and purposes in the game we play, Rail is not a surgeon unless your surgery revolves on how screwed your brain is. The note was stated to allow Rail to be a surgeon, but this is inherently false and the only surgery Rail can do is relating to the field of neurology, a field psychology is very much related to. Have you ever seen Rail be a surgeon? No, because Rail cannot do surgery due to his very very focused knowledge on only one field of the biological body. Overall, this allows Rail to have an interesting note ICly due to their status as a talented psychiatrist and as a robot, without stepping on toes OOCly unless in a very specific situation (which personally is a situation so specialized I doubt many an actual surgeon would be able to deal with anyhows). Stating that Rail can be a Surgeon, is false.

In Conclusion: Coalf is entirely right, Jenna agrees that Coalf is correct, the only field of Surgery that Rail can properly do is a very specialised field closely related to their job as a psychiatrist. This whole thing was a mixup in communication.

EDIT: To clarify, what I mean is that I believe Coalf disagrees with the idea that Rail can function as an overall surgeon, which Jenna also disagrees with. Jenna does like Rail as specifically a neurosurgeon, a field relating to Psychology heavily, but that specific mentioning of this specific field may not have reached Coalf yet, and because we are using the broader terms and not the specifics, we have this issue.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Guest

[Jennalele]

words

 

Basically, yeah, this. I've never joined as a surgeon n'or do I intend to do so, as I'd take up the slot doing nothing but wait for people to hit their heads or die.

And... All of the above points.

[Butterrobber202]

Dunno if I’m allowed to bump my head into this but meh. Admins can see if it’s allowed or not.

As a regular* medical player expanding the qualifications Page shouldn’t be considered. This is a game, be it a HRP game, we are not trying to make everything “realistic”. The medical rules are setup in such a way that everyone has their own lane they can stick to. Nothing is worse than playing, let’s say chemist, and have a medical doctor waltz in and say that have permission to make all the drugs they can. It’s a lame feeling.

As much as we are HRP we simply cannot emulate real life due to the need to keep the game entertaining. And consider this, the game mechanics are dumbed down so the PLAYER can understand them, ICly operating a cryo (tube?) pod is much more difficult than just switching the on button on.

TD;LR Everyone has their on job and it really sucks when someone Mary Sues their way into your responsibilities. This is a game, not real life.

[Sytic]

snip

 

The point is not that they are stepping on toes, but that the way a prior note was said (this person can do surgery as well as psychiatry) lead people to believe they could step on toes, when in actuality the player wanted permission to perform surgery on a very advanced, specific, minor scale in order to replicate a knowledge of neurosurgery, a type of surgery rarely even done on-server and is mostly for roleplay purposes. Furthermore, the said field (neurosurgery) is much more complicated and already needs an understanding of psychology, which is why the two fields mesh well together. I'll say it again, specifically, bluntly, so the point can be made:

Rail should only know one very specific field of surgery, which is neurosurgery. This makes sense because neurosurgery already needs some knowledge of psychology and the fields mesh well. Rail doesn't know any other kind of surgery, and neurosurgery from a mechanics standpoint on-server rarely happens anyway and is generally considered to be far out of the knowledge of a typical surgeon from a roleplay standpoint.

And on the topic of Swift and Chemistry, I would doubt any player would barge into Chemistry and make the chems themselves unless there is a very, very pressing situation and the chemicals aren't already readily available and the chemist isn't already making them. "Leave it to the professionals" is a term that works here.

[TishinaStalker]

And on the topic of Swift and Chemistry, I would doubt any player would barge into Chemistry and make the chems themselves unless there is a very, very pressing situation and the chemicals aren't already readily available and the chemist isn't already making them.

 

Hi, you're definitely wrong here. It's kinda uncommon, but I definitely have joined into much more than a few rounds where an MD asked to be let into chemistry by the AI, was accepted, and then I join half an hour later to either already having my job done or to having to spend an additional 30 minutes to fix everything they cocked up.

[Coalf]

I'll roll back on the Paramedic, sure you can make standart chems for your belt.

I'll roll back on Rail, not because of "Muh IRL" argument, but simply because Sytic came out and said that you do only ONE brain operation. Prior to that post nobody really specifed what "Allowed to be surgeon" means, yes you did say you

"I also need to re-iterate that, with Rail particularly, I am now at a point where people know him for his specialties. I am often asked by Kyla Milne, for instance, to take care of cerebral trauma cases as they come in. "

This never really specified anything and frankly I'm more prone to trust the wording of notes as players tend to sweeten up their complaints.

Still I'm not okay with putting my hand in the mouth of the metaphorical Fenrir for this and again, I don't think we'll reach a consensus on this because.

LET'S BREAK IT DOWN

 

But what I've gotten out of your response, Coalf, is that the little link you're clinging to like the holy grail here can instantly veto any and all reasoning, experience, IRL examples or IC circumstances. And that doesn't feel right. In fact, it feels more unrealistic and hampering to say "well the guide says no so no." I've lost count of how many examples have been brought up, but here's a few.

You mean the rules?

A made up set of unrealistic expectations and restrictions which the players are not allowed to break?

Yes it feels "unrealistic" because having rules upholded by invisible gods who can as much delete you aswell as turn you into a corgi isn't very "realistic".

HRP =/= Realism, our setting is in no real way realistic outside of basic believes we hold IRL, I.E that gravity exists, that humans aren't insane and that we don't eat food through vomitting our stomach out on it and letting it digest externally.

 

- IRL, Psychiatrist-Neurosurgeons are much more common than you seem to believe.

More like IRL, maybe, more likely in-game? Doubtful, refer to above post.

 

- A CMO could easily do psychiatry and all surgery just fine.

Yes, just as we might let a CE setup the engine and build and AI core while not letting an engineer do that.

Yes, just as we might let an RD work in Robotics and RnD.

Yes, just as we might let the captain be both a captain and know something from a department they come from.

Yes, just as we might let the HoP have the skill to be both good at shooting guns and paperwork.

Yes, heads are expected to be more skilled in their departments. NO, this doesn't contradict what I said earlier, they are expected to know MORE, not everything there is to know.

It's called balance, there is only one CMO on the entire station and his job is whitelisted for a reason. To make sure that players don't use these roles as extra-access doctors/psych/surgeon/chemist/virologist hybrids.

- A psychiatrist must also be an MD to begin with.

I could say "Yeah but MD doesn't mean neurosurgery," however that's dumb and a shoddy excuse so I'll concede that you're right on this one.

- Rail is an IPC. It isn't like he's been loaded with the entirety of the medical department's database. He knows two things which he has both programming for, and a decade's worth of utterly no-stop intensive study in specializing in.

Alright, how does this make you different from any other person who said they know this and this and that?

The backstory? Your species? Your age? The things they used to defend their skillsets over and over and over?

"My security officer used to be a marine, so of course he knows how to fix bones"

"I'm a Dionaea, so it means I can jobhop because they're smarter than humans"

"My surgeon is 70 years old, so yeah realistically he can have 4 doctorates"

This is a game, throwing balance and fairness out the window because of RP is how servers die.

 

- At this point, removing this would have serious IC effects as I would have to scramble for a reason to explain why Rail can no longer perform neurosurgery, that doesn't destroy his reputation or reliability.

Yes, sometimes we make OOC staff decisions that ruin things ICly, this is how things work.

While yes me bwoinking, Smacking of Wet Noodles, the Dionea cargo technician, who decided to clone his friend because "No doctors was around to do it" might distrupt the fact he spent the last 3 months of his gameplay telling everyone how good at cloning he is but it won't make me change my decision.

Because he has too wide of a skillset.

All in all I am not willing to back-up on my second claim.

Let's see what Alberyk has in store.

[Scheveningen]

Didn't we say job-hopping to this extent was not okay, especially due to the degree of skills required to do so? If human characters can't do this, why can IPCs? Why do they get preferential treatment?

I don't think staff has been in the business of ever wiping notes from a person's record unless the note is completely unreasonable and abusive. Notes are designed to help other staff members get an idea of what the most recent staff confrontation over a recent issue is. If it was worse than that, it should be addressed as a warning. I think only warnings should ever be appealed at this point.

This is kind of a really odd case because this is a retired admin opening a complaint over something they would normally not even see in the first place

 

.

I fail to see what was unreasonable with this resolution.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Guest

[Sytic]

Snip

 

Hi, you're definitely wrong here. It's kinda uncommon, but I definitely have joined into much more than a few rounds where an MD asked to be let into chemistry by the AI, was accepted, and then I join half an hour later to either already having my job done or to having to spend an additional 30 minutes to fix everything they cocked up.

 

Well, so much for wishful thinking I suppose. You'd think medbay would have a little more respect for each other's respective responsibilities.

[Scheveningen]

The sooner you realize all departments have the capability to be shitty, the more sense things make in IC, Sytic.

[Sytic]

Didn't we say job-hopping to this extent was not okay, especially due to the degree of skills required to do so? If human characters can't do this, why can IPCs? Why do they get preferential treatment?

I don't think staff has been in the business of ever wiping notes from a person's record unless the note is completely unreasonable and abusive. Notes are designed to help other staff members get an idea of what the most recent staff confrontation over a recent issue is. If it was worse than that, it should be addressed as a warning. I think only warnings should ever be appealed at this point.

This is kind of a really odd case because this is a retired admin opening a complaint over something they would normally not even see in the first place

 

.

I fail to see what was unreasonable with this resolution.

 

I feel like the conversation topic has shifted towards Rail and the goose chase that Jenna has been on, and arguing for or against Rail's ability for neurosurgery rather than Swift's capacity for chemistry. Hopefully that clears things up.