[2 Dismissal] Remove Loyalty implants [Binned: 29/04/2018]

[JMJ_99]

The suggestion is remove LIs either entirely or just from captain, HoS and IAA. LIs are used as an excuse for heads making insane decisions no normal human would make and forces player to have to alter their character to unrealistic levels, this is highlighted mainly on Rev. it makes sense that the head of station security and the captain of the vessel would be trusted to understand that central telling them to setup a battle royale 'social experiment' until everyone on the station is dead(this was a real rev gimmick) is not an order they should be following; it falls down to captains and HoSs playing," but I was ordered to do so that makes it ok".

[Kaed]

This sounds like more of a problem with rev rounds than loyalty implants, tbh. Rev rounds are the only round type where loyalty implanted individuals can be antagonists, and it leads to stupid, stupid shit like this. I'm all for nixing the round type, but I know there is a crowd of people who rabidly defend it like it's the best thing since sliced bread, so that goes nowhere.

Something else that goes nowhere: Asking for loyalty implants to be removed. This is like the third thread I've seen about it. It doesn't work. They're a part of the game that is unlikely to be removed, and isolated cases of it resulting in stupid shit does not warrant them being taken out. Fix the shit that caused the isolated incident, instead of removing the implants like it's their fault.

[JMJ_99]

This sounds like more of a problem with rev rounds than loyalty implants, tbh. Rev rounds are the only round type where loyalty implanted individuals can be antagonists, and it leads to stupid, stupid shit like this. I'm all for nixing the round type, but I know there is a crowd of people who rabidly defend it like it's the best thing since sliced bread, so that goes nowhere.

Something else that goes nowhere: Asking for loyalty implants to be removed. This is like the third thread I've seen about it. It doesn't work. They're a part of the game that is unlikely to be removed, and isolated cases of it resulting in stupid shit does not warrant them being taken out. Fix the shit that caused the isolated incident, instead of removing the implants like it's their fault.

I was only using that as an example, the problem is not round type specific

[Kaed]

I was only using that as an example, the problem is not round type specific

 

Okay, having read your post again, I see what you mean, but I'm a little perplexed. Are you saying that someone recently made a round where there was a battle royale to kill each other via a fake centcomm announcement?

Because I personally started a thread over that months ago after a similar event, and got the guidelines for fake messages revised to include the stipulation that they have to be believable for the command staff to take them seriously, otherwise they can just be ignored. So this is a problem with the players, not loyalty implants. If this was recent, did you or anyone else ahelp it? What happened when you or they did?

[kyres1]

I've been saying this for months now. Anything that makes the game two-dimensional sucks - and being "influenced to suit Nanotrasen's needs" makes everything exactly that. The complexity of the game is thrown out the window with needless IC restrictions like this. Intricate stuff like a captain's opinions regarding their crew or the nature of their decision making should not be left to the likes of something that gets shoved in their head upon taking the job.

In lore, they are yet another addition that makes zero sense much like cloning. Nobody in their right mind would ever willfully be implanted by NT under any circumstance, no matter the benefits, especially since people's lives are on the line for it and regardless of its deactivation when they are off duty.

 

Something else that goes nowhere: Asking for loyalty implants to be removed. This is like the third thread I've seen about it. It doesn't work. They're a part of the game that is unlikely to be removed, and isolated cases of it resulting in stupid shit does not warrant them being taken out. Fix the shit that caused the isolated incident, instead of removing the implants like it's their fault.

I see what you mean here, but it's not like we're removing a giant gameplay mechanic or if it even has any sway over gameplay to begin with. Its entire purpose revolves around one point ; removing RP potential to make all captains/HOS universally in NT's favor.

Sure, it makes sense that NT would want it, but 1. nobody would sign up for it, 2. at the point of captainship, you already have assured loyalty. They get a massive paycheck and have proven themselves worthy of being afforded the immense responsibilities related to captainship. Whether or not working with NT is morally correct has always been a good way to drive stories and loyalty implants remove that aspect entirely from arguably the most important character in any given round.

[JMJ_99]

I was only using that as an example, the problem is not round type specific

 

Okay, having read your post again, I see what you mean, but I'm a little perplexed. Are you saying that someone recently made a round where there was a battle royale to kill each other via a fake centcomm announcement?

Because I personally started a thread over that months ago after a similar event, and got the guidelines for fake messages revised to include the stipulation that they have to be believable for the command staff to take them seriously, otherwise they can just be ignored. So this is a problem with the players, not loyalty implants. If this was recent, did you or anyone else ahelp it? What happened when you or they did?

We are thinking of the same event, I was HoS at the time it happened, the LI made that round living hell for me.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Guest

[BurgerBB]

Loyalty Implants I think are implemented to prevent the HoS from going antag, which is MUCH needed for this game considering that most security mains also have antag enabled. I suggest looking at rev rounds instead of the far useful loyalty implants that prevent one-sided antag rounds.

[Kaed]

I don't see it like you do at all. I don't really see why you think 'no one would accept an implant realistically for a job'. Are you joking? People allow all sorts of things to be done to themselves for a job that makes themselves miserable, even in real life. Maybe you would never accept a thought altering implant, but you're not everyone else, and when you're working for a super-corporation, expect some mildly sketchy stuff. Absolute power corrupts etc etc.

You call it a restriction, I see it more as a block against the people on the station with the most power deciding to be psychos because an antagonist round or some stupid thing. The loyalty implant only really exists as a 'you can't antag' sticker, except in rev rounds, where apparently that is waived in favor of lol memes, or something. Captains are empowered to have absolute authority. They can literally order you to murder a helpless captive and you have to do it - you can report them afterwards, but you are expected to execute the prisoner on the spot if the captain tells you to, regardless of any regulations. A person in a role like that can't be left entirely up to player whims, because players tend to make shitty decisions against the nature of their position if they are given full freedom and/or an antagonist waiver.

[JMJ_99]

I don't see it like you do at all. I don't really see why you think 'no one would accept an implant realistically for a job'. Are you joking? People allow all sorts of things to be done to themselves for a job that makes themselves miserable, even in real life. Maybe you would never accept a thought altering implant, but you're not everyone else, and when you're working for a super-corporation, expect some mildly sketchy stuff. Absolute power corrupts etc etc.

You call it a restriction, I see it more as a block against the people on the station with the most power deciding to be psychos because an antagonist round or some stupid thing. The loyalty implant only really exists as a 'you can't antag' sticker, except in rev rounds, where apparently that is waived in favor of lol memes, or something. Captains are empowered to have absolute authority. They can literally order you to murder a helpless captive and you have to do it - you can report them afterwards, but you are expected to execute the prisoner on the spot if the captain tells you to, regardless of any regulations. A person in a role like that can't be left entirely up to player whims, because players tend to make shitty decisions against the nature of their position if they are given full freedom and/or an antagonist waiver.

The captain has that Absolute power because of the LI, in any real organisation if you're superior tells you to do something illegal you are allowed to disobey it. the only real negative to removing it is that it would allow a captain or HoS to be converted to cult, vamp etc (which they do anyway once they are powerful enough) which as you said, for some reason the no antag lol label gets lifted for loyalist

[sonicgotnuked]

Loyalty implants are restrictive and tend to have a lack of sense. Like anyone else, captains and HoS have training and respectful requirements as both a character and player. This wouldn't release the shitters, it is a whitelist role, and they will be subject to white list removals.

On the antag part, if it is so much of a problem for round start antags, could we just not have them roll it?

I also don't think the complete purge should be true. They could be in RnD and cargo with a regulation for captains, IA, and HoS acting wrong to gain one.

[Arrow768]

As mentioned by some of the previous posters this looks like its mostly a issue with bad rev announcements.

If someone makes a stupid rev announcement. Ahelp it and it will be voided.

Yes as LId person you are expected to carry out the orders from and to prioritize the company over your own personal feelings.

Why else would the captain nuke the station which would lead to his certain death if he can just call the emergency shuttle instead.

(Despite there being the possibility that central might get overrun by whatever caused the situation in the first place)

I generally do not see the LI as a issue, but bad play from the antags that force the LI´d persons into extremely unplausible situations (Which has already been addressed via the policy suggestion of reverting bad announcements)

Or is there another aspect I dont see ?

[Zundy]

Ok, so what would removing the implant bring to the table? What could you do in round if they didn't exist or Captain and HoS spawned without them?

[kyres1]

Ok, so what would removing the implant bring to the table? What could you do in round if they didn't exist or Captain and HoS spawned without them?

 

With implants ;

NanoTrasen ; "Do this insane thing."

Captain: "OK"

Without implants ;

NanoTrasen ; "Do this insane thing... Or else."

Captain ; "Is it worth it? I've got a wife and kids. Do I put my life on the line for this crew? What are the repercussions? Would NT go that far? I'm sure they would."

I'm sure there's plenty more examples, but this is always usually what it boils down to.

[Zundy]

Except you can roleplay that out. Nothing is stopping you. In the end though, the implant obligates you to follow it unless you feel you have a compelling enough RP reason to pull this: "Though unlikely, it is possible that a loyalty implant be overridden by stress or strong emotions. If patient's loyalty implant is overridden (or when it is simply faulty), it is advised to remove the faulty implant through surgical means and replace it with a functioning one. " Then by all means ahelp and ask if you can USE YOUR WILLPOWER to overcome the implant. The sole purpose of it is to ensure that there are command staff on the loyalist side at round start.

[Faris]

From a balance point of view, loyalty implants are there for antagonistic roles. Removal of implants would outright permit vampires or cultists to essentially rush these specific roles, while they may not all have the same capacity as each other, IAA obviously the least here. To clarify, I do not mean round start antagonists, I mean cultists rushing to convert these roles or vampires dominating/thralling needing less investment than they currently do, which I feel creates massive imbalance.

Yes, you can argue that with enough effort, the above can be done, but that is a reason for their existence. With enough preparation and effort, you can convert a Captain after removing their implant. With enough effort as a vampire, you can thrall a Head of Security. They're not supposed to be easy.

Now, from a personal point of view. I am quite fond of the dystopian aspect of the implant.

Overall, I don't really support their removal. I don't feel they're as two dimensional as people are leading to believe. The implant makes you loyal to the company, it makes you work in the best interest of the company. The two dimensional aspects cited here as really just two ends of a spectrum where the players can still decide in between. A person that has essentially been uplifted by the company through scholarships and care is different from a person who made their own lot in life.

I am however open to perhaps reworking the interpretation of the implant, perhaps establishing more guidelines about it? I felt the loose definition of "best interest" and "loyalty" was open enough. There were a few points raised about the implants and revolution rounds, which I feel is a separate issue pertaining to a game mode as opposed to the implant as a whole.

Edit:

 

Except you can roleplay that out. Nothing is stopping you. In the end though, the implant obligates you to follow it unless you feel you have a compelling enough RP reason to pull this: "Though unlikely, it is possible that a loyalty implant be overridden by stress or strong emotions. If patient's loyalty implant is overridden (or when it is simply faulty), it is advised to remove the faulty implant through surgical means and replace it with a functioning one. " Then by all means ahelp and ask if you can USE YOUR WILLPOWER to overcome the implant. The sole purpose of it is to ensure that there are command staff on the loyalist side at round start.

 

Zundy really hit this on the nail for me. I feel the "closed mind" perception comes from people unaware of the potential the implants allow, even though I feel the wiki section of implants explain it quite well.

[Faris]

I've left this for four days and my post hasn't received any counter arguement to it so I'm going to go ahead with my stance and making it official. Should this be outright dismissed with a second vote, you're free to make another suggestion to modify the implant instead of this suggestion which is outright removal.

Voting for dismissal.

[Azande]

I've left this for four days and my post hasn't received any counter arguement to it so I'm going to go ahead with my stance and making it official. Should this be outright dismissed with a second vote, you're free to make another suggestion to modify the implant instead of this suggestion which is outright removal.

Voting for dismissal.

 

Implants make staff bwoink me when I refuse to sacrifice my character's design and nature because a central command announcement from a traitor tells me to run a nation's round, or capture and execute someone. Or so many other things. Implants are used by staff to absolutely destroy a Captain or HoS character's identity .

Loyalty to the company should make the Captain/HoS harder to use against the system - not able to turn into genocidal freaks with a single announcement from the uplink.

[Faris]

-snip-

 

Implants make staff bwoink me when I refuse to sacrifice my character's design and nature because a central command announcement from a traitor tells me to run a nation's round, or capture and execute someone. Or so many other things. Implants are used by staff to absolutely destroy a Captain or HoS character's identity .

Loyalty to the company should make the Captain/HoS harder to use against the system - not able to turn into genocidal freaks with a single announcement from the uplink.

 

Reviewing your notes has yielded 0 results pertaining this since you regained your whitelist, feel free to actually provide factual evidence that you were dealt with for playing a character. Though I will concede that there is the possibility that you were not noted, but you specified different circumstances so I feel it's fairly unlikely for multiple incidents to not be written down.

I also heavily disagree with the sentiment that we use implants to destroy any notion of character. I cannot speak for policy that may have been a thing a long time ago. I can however comment on things that have occurred perhaps over a period of a year, to a time where I was still a secondary administrator, meaning that I can only comment on what I've been around for. You are perfectly allowed to question questionable announcements, the adminhelp button is readily available for you when you are in doubt or believe that the announcement is dumb to put it plainly.

I think https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Nanotrasen_Corporation#Loyalty_Implants is very clear and open, giving you the leisure to play a character, covering incidents where emotions may override an implant.

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Revolutionary#Proper_Announcements This is for revolution rounds.

As for traitor/mercenary announcements, you are free to fax questionable announcements. Those announcements are tools, they can be utilized properly or improperly, each method of utilization will yield different results.

If an announcement went up that required you to genocide a whole race, it is perfectly reasonable for you to question this order.

[Azande]

Reviewing your notes has yielded 0 results pertaining this since you regained your whitelist, feel free to actually provide factual evidence that you were dealt with for playing a character. Though I will concede that there is the possibility that you were not noted, but you specified different circumstances so I feel it's fairly unlikely for multiple incidents to not be written down.

I also heavily disagree with the sentiment that we use implants to destroy any notion of character. I cannot speak for policy that may have been a thing a long time ago. I can however comment on things that have occurred perhaps over a period of a year, to a time where I was still a secondary administrator, meaning that I can only comment on what I've been around for. You are perfectly allowed to question questionable announcements, the adminhelp button is readily available for you when you are in doubt or believe that the announcement is dumb to put it plainly.

 

 

I was not noted because I was not punished, I was told to do X because of my implant. Why would something like this be noted?

Running the nations round because of a traitor announcement (or possibly rev) is something that occurred only two months ago - a lot of people remember it, a lot of staff were on. Specifically, it was Datberry that answered my ahelp and told me to treat the orders as if they were real according to my implant. So, I faxed Central, and CCIA decided they liked the idea of each department being a nation and regulations being up to department's chosen leaders. I was forced to manage this, quite annoyingly might I add, as the Captain who was told by both OOC and IC staff, that I had to follow these orders. It is not my job to run an event as a Captain non-antag. And I was not a loyalty in this round.

I have had at least three occurrences where an announcement has gone out saying to arrest someone and execute/borg/HuT them on X random charge. Usually a Head of Staff, Security or prominent social crew member. All within the timeframe of your Headminship. As well as countless, countless announcements from Revs that summed themselves up to 'Captain Eleanor Shen is stripped of authority' within the first 20 minutes of the round - that's ALWAYS fun because then I have some sort of implanted obligation to just give up and remove myself from play???

I have had

[Faris]

I was not noted because I was not punished, I was told to do X because of my implant. Why would something like this be noted?

 

Notes are still placed for behavior that required staff to be corrected.

 

Running the nations round because of a traitor announcement (or possibly rev) is something that occurred only two months ago - a lot of people remember it, a lot of staff were on. Specifically, it was Datberry that answered my ahelp and told me to treat the orders as if they were real according to my implant. So, I faxed Central, and CCIA decided they liked the idea of each department being a nation and regulations being up to department's chosen leaders. I was forced to manage this, quite annoyingly might I add, as the Captain who was told by both OOC and IC staff, that I had to follow these orders. It is not my job to run an event as a Captain non-antag. And I was not a loyalty in this round.

 

You were playing a Captain. Captains are expected to deal with things relevant to the station as they occur. If an announcement was verified by CC, then it is your characters job to help facilitate it.

 

I have had at least three occurrences where an announcement has gone out saying to arrest someone and execute/borg/HuT them on X random charge.

Perhaps semantics, but due to the nature of how different they are, I don't group execution with borgification/HuT due to the difference in their legal standings. I won't say all such announcements of this nature are bad, I've seen some that are good, but I will also say that some are bad. And under the policy that was set for such announcements, we have dealt with the "bad" as they are brought up to us.

 

Your announcement must be concise, within the realm of possibility and reason and be of sound structure and language considering you're posing as Central Command. Wasting the announcement is in violation of the server rules.

 

This is the clause. Violation of server rules should be ahelped.

 

As well as countless, countless announcements from Revs that summed themselves up to 'Captain Eleanor Shen is stripped of authority' within the first 20 minutes of the round

This incident you cite is what I would deem as a rule violation. They're taking you out of the round early on without sufficient build up. Have you reported them?

 

- that's ALWAYS fun because then I have some sort of implanted obligation to just give up and remove myself from play???

While I don't believe I've witnessed this sort of announcement, I do not feel you have such an obligation to suddenly remove yourself from a round in such a way. I feel it's very similar to a vampire ordering you to just "suicide". While they're different, I feel the OOC aspect is very similar.

As for the suggestion, I don't believe you've posted your stance here. Do you want them removed? Modified? Or are you just here to argue what I present? Perhaps you feel staff enforcement is improper? If it is the latter, then this thread isn't the place.

[JMJ_99]

From a balance point of view, loyalty implants are there for antagonistic roles. Removal of implants would outright permit vampires or cultists to essentially rush these specific roles, while they may not all have the same capacity as each other, IAA obviously the least here. To clarify, I do not mean round start antagonists, I mean cultists rushing to convert these roles or vampires dominating/thralling needing less investment than they currently do, which I feel creates massive imbalance.

This really is not that big of a change, these roles are already rushed by antags most of the time for free gear, given that you can refuse to be coverted to cult( and the nature of both HoS and captain) there is little reason they would actually convert icly , essentially nothing would change when it comes to cult. For vampire, theres already ooc rules on limiting what these can do, I can't think of situation where dominating a HoS would turn out any different to an officer. I also see captain losing some authority if LIs get removed, allowing crew to actually doubt their commander.So to clarify I don't see the addition of allowing HoS and Captain to be affected by antags have any more change to the round then what a currently non LId head of staff would. Last thing,I don't understand why they for some reason get a pass when it comes to revolution and also get forced to take antagonistic actions regardless of their antag status.

 

Overall, I don't really support their removal. I don't feel they're as two dimensional as people are leading to believe. The implant makes you loyal to the company, it makes you work in the best interest of the company. The two dimensional aspects cited here as really just two ends of a spectrum where the players can still decide in between. A person that has essentially been uplifted by the company through scholarships and care is different from a person who made their own lot in life.

Perhaps, but it does force players to throw away their character in certain situations which I feel provides more negative then positive. These personnel are already expected to be loyal to the company and would put it as a higher then themselves.

 

Except you can roleplay that out. Nothing is stopping you. In the end though, the implant obligates you to follow it unless you feel you have a compelling enough RP reason to pull this: "Though unlikely, it is possible that a loyalty implant be overridden by stress or strong emotions. If patient's loyalty implant is overridden (or when it is simply faulty), it is advised to remove the faulty implant through surgical means and replace it with a functioning one. " Then by all means ahelp and ask if you can USE YOUR WILLPOWER to overcome the implant. The sole purpose of it is to ensure that there are command staff on the loyalist side at round start.

Problem with this is you have to ahelp to be allowed to this. Theres no incentive to RP this when the easier option is be a mindless corporate drone.

[MO_oNyMan]

Except you can roleplay that out. Nothing is stopping you. In the end though, the implant obligates you to follow it unless you feel you have a compelling enough RP reason to pull this: "Though unlikely, it is possible that a loyalty implant be overridden by stress or strong emotions. If patient's loyalty implant is overridden (or when it is simply faulty), it is advised to remove the faulty implant through surgical means and replace it with a functioning one. " Then by all means ahelp and ask if you can USE YOUR WILLPOWER to overcome the implant. The sole purpose of it is to ensure that there are command staff on the loyalist side at round start.

 

If you can override implant given a good RP reason why do they exist in the first place? Isn't it the way all characters should work? You follow common sense and the desire to keep your job by following NT orders (since NT are your employers) but can go out of the way with the circumstances are just right. LIs are not really needed to follow this guideline. And the position of captain or HoS should naturally be handed out to people who are loyal to NT. People get appointed because they have loyalty, not people are given loyalty because they were appointed. In the current version implant offers basically nothing apart from the ability to magically convert baddies to NT religion so i don't see why wouldn't we either remove it or replace it with mindshield (to protect already loyal personnel from malicious external influence, which would make more sense)

[Zundy]

I already explained why mechanically it exists. Why remove it when you can already do what you want to do anyway? It changes nothing at all.

[MO_oNyMan]

if having or not having them makes zero difference why not keep things clean instead of polluting mechanics and lore with redundant features? Either clean it up or change it slightly to make more sense

[Faris]

I've done some searching based on something I've heard. I'm not open to outright removal of the implant without a replacement of sorts. I am considering the possibility of replacing it with something that removes the "loyalty" aspect.

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Implants#Mindshield_Implants

The premise of this implant is it counters mental manipulation. This would permit the concept of game balance when it comes to those vital roles and antags, but in the process removing this "railroaded" aspect people seem to have issues with.

The draft I have in mind is:

• Captain/HoS/IAA start with mind-shield implants instead.

• Armory starts with mind shield implants instead.

• Loyalty implants are kept as a RnD thing and maybe other stuff. I don't know where they all exist at the top of my head.

 

Obviously this isn't an actual proposal just yet, I do want further opinions on this matter. I'm interested on hearing your thoughts, especially those that have contributed so far.

[mention]Azande[/mention][mention]JMJ_99[/mention][mention]kyres1[/mention][mention]Arrow768[/mention][mention]Zundy[/mention]