[Resolved] [Multiple] Player Complaint - Chaznoodles/LemonTheFruit ; Hazecole1, Kvasir

BYOND Key: Crazytoast42

Player Byond Key: Chaznoodles/LemonTheFruit ; Hazecole1, Kvasir

Staff involved: IncognitoJesus, NursieKitty

Reason for complaint: In honesty, I don't know if this is going to go anywhere. It just feels right to at least put this here and see what happens. It doesn't feel right to stay quiet about it when it's bothered me and bothered other people. A lot happened that round and I know another complaint is up about events that transpired, and well, this is my side of it, and a side I want to present and for something to be done about it. I'm not asking for mass permabans, that'd be insane and frankly not what I even want. I just want something to be done, warnings, new rules set (ex: don't be cruel as a "joke" if they're not your chum-pal-buddy-friend), tempbans, something.

Chaz/Lemon

https://gyazo.com/839a98e7216632d98b8b72fc678a0534

https://gyazo.com/a171729534a3e807ac644c0e1a27472b

(Order is lost after this, it was a long conversation and Gyazo jumbled them up.)

https://gyazo.com/1cfe5ca3317567540420a2405beb171e

https://gyazo.com/08be01817a326d247fb672e9f98d73e0

https://gyazo.com/0044d581a8e797d4099d70d8c5e34980

https://gyazo.com/03a357509c5fcf374a3a2e0733f29246

https://gyazo.com/2b5ac3f185ca58a61f16d7b5c42b4d9a

https://gyazo.com/47972f306f9397e810c965f32743d0d7

https://gyazo.com/05404067d256de622e701e1fbadb4c4b

https://gyazo.com/bfac087a0072dde07ddb1d38e54e4d4c

https://gyazo.com/38492cb8a14cb87ecdf997294d349692

https://gyazo.com/2d499187253b2b9e2656cc8d822d1a73

https://gyazo.com/61125af222b5da17ed943e17fc76c1d5

It seems a bit much to be, well, mocking someone for being genuinely upset about something. It's an attitude that I really feel the server needs less of. People have emotions, people get offended, if the response of people when offense is taken is to do their best to offend more, then something in fundamentally wrong with the behavior here.

I dunno, it's sort of the same thing I said a while ago. It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask or request that a standard be held that people, at the very least, be nice to each other? I mean hey, people whining about lesbay and I got irritated, that was one thing. But Jessica expressing that she was upset and then the players actively trying to make it worse? And then even going into a tirade and criticizing the server in OOC without a care in the world? I mean, it's fine if staff aren't upset or offended by being criticized, I know the staff there probably just took it with a smug smile and dismissed it, but the issue with what they said to Jessica is what I want to be considered.

There should be a standard to where enough is enough and it's not a joke anymore. I don't think that's unreasonable to request.

Haze/Kvasir

For the second half of the complaint:

https://gyazo.com/3323f5e55abce15c53a68214b720c883

https://gyazo.com/7a40616fbe81ddc9e6e30a4c7e608db6

https://gyazo.com/2f7e44d0c142cff4b64ad7b460dba057

https://gyazo.com/d0f9f4dbbcfe1bd4de605976df2d6222

https://gyazo.com/ae6e4bca530416ba01e7fbeaba749688

I just don't think it should be acceptable to do this. In context, Cheeky had captured Cassie and was basically making her his little torture fun time toy. I don't know why he did that but that isn't the point of this complaint. The point is that people were in ghost and following this around and harassing/taunting/laughing at her in looc. They were breaking through and talking to her OOCly, taunting her and laughing at her predicament in looc so that she could see their banter as her character was being tortured for an extended period of time (30-45 minutes).

I feel there should be a line drawn. They crossed whatever line could be drawn because I don't think any circumstance would permit or warrant ghost/observers to cheer on an antag torture session in looc. The OOC player was obviously upset and voiced their frustration and grief (too strong of a word but sue me) with the situation yet they continued to do so. Those links are all in chronological order in how they progressed, as well, so they present it as it happened.

As stated, I feel a line has been crossed when ghosts are using looc to cheer on an antagonist as they tortured someone else's character. There's still a sort of connection of being forced to sit through, roleplay, and emote someone that's being tortured and isn't some tough "heh is that all you got?" character. It's a bit draining in my experience, and to have your situation laughed at, mocked, or otherwise observed as entertainment isn't going to put you in a good mood when you've already stopped having fun. I'm not saying the torture is bad, go ahead and be whatever weird antagonist you want to be. But the looc cheering definitely crossed a line, especially when it continued when the player expressed discomfort/distaste.

There's going to be more logs from that round from others and I wholesomely expect people to use logs of when I lost it and shouted at them. I don't... care. I just want something to be done. I just want to do something more than yell and try to get through to people that genuinely don't care what I have to say. And I understand that. So I'm coming here to see what staff will do; that entire round was a mess and if nothing came of that round but "eh, just banter" then I... dunno. I dunno what I'll think, but I'll be disheartened at the very least.

Approximate Date/Time: 5/31/16 10:30 PM - 12:20 AM Central Time Zone (GMT -6)

First off, the torture thing. It would have been completely acceptable to ghost or ahelp about that. there have been a few times where things like that go too far and it makes people feel incredibly uncomfortable in having to RP it. This isnt something i invoke lightly because "MUH FEELINS", but something like that over 30-45 minutes? yeah...i would have ghosted. I dont know if the players hyping up LOOC is really a problem. Players do it in gunfights and other high action situations but i admit it kinda makes it all a bit...disturbing.

Antag actions are supposed to have PURPOSE and a REASON. you cant just fuck shit up 4 no raisin. What exactly was the point of this?

The first part of this complaint though....Fuck, i have no clue. I mean i understand if people think theirs a problem that doesn't get addressed they are gonna get loud about it. I always get a peculiar feeling when im accused of these sort of things. I am literally a guy with a fancy admin tag who just wants people to have fun, i dont sit here on a power trip, It might just be pointless shitposting but i like to think theirs a reason for it.

In all honesty, I'm of the belief that it was just one or two people complaining and whining with such a scattering of shitposting that the intent was that they could say their point with such sarcasm nobody could tell who was serious or not anymore. It's a bit of a joke that they can just act so unruly and ridiculous that they hit some sort of... just had the word, some sort of limit where they can say whatever they very well please and then they're not taken seriously and people just laugh at how silly they're being. I don't think it should really permit people to say things like that or jump at people if they act so ridiculous that it could just be considered senseless banner. There's a time and place for jokes and the issue I have is that people seem to cross the line of a joke and go into genuinely upsetting or attacking people because either 1. there's so much bullcrap going on that nobody thinks anyone is being serious so inevitably someone's upset or 2. they think it's hilarious and just keep going and write it off as meaningless banner and say they were the first case.

Players do it in gunfights and other high action situations but i admit it kinda makes it all a bit...disturbing.

That's the point. It's not a gunfight, hell, if I was being hyped up when Hsshsthishtshs was in Medbay fighting I would've hyped with them! That was exciting, it was intense, I pulled a guy out of the firefight, gave him medical treatment, ran to the bar, that was fun! I would've hyped back, I would've been like "HECK YEAH!" or "nope! He ain't gonna get me! 2robust4u" or some other crap. I get that! High intensity situations can be fun to hype and heck it's cool to know there's a crowd when you're doing something cool.

But torture? There's a line that needs to be drawn. When people are actively hyping up you having to roleplay going through psychological hell to the point you have to ghost or you'll just flip, there's a problem. She did end up ghosting because she just lost it and didn't want to deal with anymore. And this was with the belief that she would be punished for it; it had gotten to such insanity that she would've rather accepted consequences than have to deal with another moment of being taunted OOC and tortured IC. It's... frankly not okay, that should not be okay to do. Even roleplaying through torture can be pretty mentally intense if you're not playing some hardass who can't be hurt. Playing a character who would properly respond to being tortured is a bit draining, and while I won't oppose to torture in proper context or as an antagonist action, I'm heavily against the looc cheer team that was making an already stressful situation even worse.

I mean, I'm not asking for permabans. Again, I just want something to be done about this because this behavior should frankly be considered disgusting and at least worth of investigation, if nothing else. A warning, some new clause in the server rules about this or that, something would be nice. After sleeping on it, the first part of my complaint is sort of just people whining and bantering and honestly I'd be more than happy with a warning about the whining and maybe a bit of a "hey don't be a jerk" regarding them harassing Jessica. I'm more concerned about the second part of my complaint (and, interestingly, Jessica is the player of Cassie), where I genuinely believe that such behavior should not be acceptable when someone has already expressed they're uncomfortable or upset. If someone is having a bad day and you're laughing and trying to do jokes and they say "shut up", you shut up, you don't keep making the jokes or even make it worse.

If someone is having a bad day and they're taking it in stride and laughing with you then yes, keep making jokes. But when enough is enough, people need to recognize that. Basic empathy is not a hard skill at all, and she wasn't being difficult about it. She openly stated she was uncomfortable with the replies, telling people to stop, saying they're "fucked up", and openly expressing that she was not at all happy with the situation. It's not hard to realize that enough is enough at that point, and I feel something should be done regarding people understanding that concept.

I can't really stand OOC, I keep it off exactly for the reason that it seems to be mostly populated by these kinds of people. I think the only course of action is for you to just switch it off when things start getting like this; people's blood going hot and letting their mouth flap with all kinds of stupidity and resentment. It's not worth a complaint about these players in my mind but there is something to be said about ensuring LOOC is protected.

Unlike OOC, LOOC is very useful for gameplay and it's not a place to gawk and holler and forcefully pull the protagonists of a scene into it; that's what ghost should be used for. Admins should be selectively muting people from LOOC if they show they can't use it for it's intended purpose.

I just want to point out two things,

You can right click the chat window and click Log to save Them and keep logging.

You should ahelp ghosts on LOOC backseat antaging as its misuse of LOOC, you can tell its a ghost by seeing their ckey instead of character name

LOOC can be muted, i'm not seeing why the ghosts were a problem. I've had ghost audiences commenting when i was being abused by captors on the raider ship. Personally i actually find it nice, when you know you have an audience there's kind of an incentive to try harder and put on a better performance.

If the scene gets too much, you should LOOC the people involved and let them know. Ahelp if that doesn't work. Ghosting only seems logical if there's no moderation staff online to deal with it

As for the first part of the complaint, that seems like a matter for admins to deal with on the scene, and there was clearly an admin there. If you're not happy with what they did about the situation, file a staff complaint

When one of the duty officers, who should be the elite of normal players, respected and stuff, is saying stuff like "i could just shit on them in ooc with zero fear of being demoted", you know it's really is bad.

I mean. What would a new player think, when they've joined us for the first time?

"Oh, it's just games and fun."

"They're just playing jokes."

"They are actually nice people, they're just not taking OOC too seriously."

"Fuck, this is a bad community, they're insulting each other, and the admins are barely doing anything. Fuck, this is bad, I will not return. Ever. Bye."

"Fuck, this is a bad community, they're insulting each other, and the admins are barely doing anything. Fuck, this is bad, I will not return. Ever. Bye. Or, maybe, there are some nice players, besides this vocal majority of shitters. I will stay here for a while, maybe suggest some things on their forums, or meet new people. I will file complaints on the bad seed. Or, whatever, they will just tell me that suicide is fun, and I will get mindraped. Rape is fun, too. I will probably leave this community, after a while.

This is not nice. Do we want the community to die? More, and more people are getting sick of this. Not just "people", actual people that want to code, sprite, suggest stuff, add to the community (remember Brightdawn?). We are really just going to say that it's "just jokes"? Really? Is that all we're capable of?

Also, can we focus on the "bad seed", the troublemakers, the shitposters and generally not nice people? Instead of just silencing the nice people, like we usually do. The long-term solutions of last-chances and bans, instead of short-term stuff "just jokes, man up and ignore this".

Like, why.

When one of the duty officers, who should be the elite of normal players, respected and stuff, is saying stuff like "i could just shit on them in ooc with zero fear of being demoted", you know it's really is bad.

So, I try to avoid posting in complaints unless I'm involved, but I think it's worth adding to this that LordRaven001 resigned from the CCIAB Duty Officer Corps prior to this round in question, and that there was some time involved in removing his perms. I believe he had deadmin'd himself during that round.

Why do people immediately dart to the "muh safe space" mockery argument? Is it really that hard for one side to use respectful language around other community members, and for the other side to loosen up a little and not take everything they see posted in a real time chat format with more seriousness than a grain of salt?

It's really not that difficult to find a center here. Or is it? I invite anyone to suggest otherwise.

I'm honestly genuinely surprised that we find it okay to talk immense amounts of shit about ex-members on the open forums here. Sure, it's ballsy, bold and cutting-edge banter, but it doesn't really make you any less of an asshole.

Nobody's obligated to "get along" here, but if said bodies are airing out each other's own laundry back-and-forth in front of everyone else in some queer form of mating ritual rather than doing the dirty behind closed doors, then they seriously need to gtfo.

I assume that many in this adorable little community are able to recognize what constitutes of acting like an adult is like, but it escapes me as to why it's so difficult for these people to execute upon it.

Start cracking down on the childish behavior, is what I say. Whether those listed in the title of this complaint are made the example or not makes absolutely no difference to me. The high school locker room bullshit needs to stop though, please.

On the side of the second half of the complaint: Nah, not valid. IC torture is IC until it either gets meme-level of retarded, without a doubt with a rape-y sort of connotation attached to it, or any sort of level of dumb. It doesn't actually look like it got that bad.

LOOCers gonna LOOC until they start transmitting meta info or acting stupid.

I very rarely invoke the rule "only post if involved". I think i am going to do it now. This topic has been derailed into oblivion and now we are gettin pretty malicious over nebulous issues. I get if you're frustrated over something but contrary to what some of may think i do want to help. After looking into the meat of the OP closer i honestly dont see much to punish over. I dont mind when people get heated over various issues in OOC and i also dont care if they attack staff. Usually a grain of truth exists at least.

As for what Garnascus said, I'm frankly not surprised and that's why I was so hesitant to do this. I spoke to a moderator about this, even, wanting to be absolutely sure that this would have some traction and I was told that yes, I should at least give it a try and stand up to behavior like this, but if nothing is going to happen then my pessimist is rewarded yet again. I won't name the moderator I spoke to unless they want to interject in this thread, but I was informed that I would at least have some traction. It's... disappointing if not so much as a warning can be given out or at least some discussion with the players about behaving a bit better.

The only arguments that have been used is "well I have thicker skin and can handle abuse", well, when someone says they're uncomfortable or upset when people are targetting them or their situation, it should stop. Should people stop if one person is like "hey stop talking about this" but it isn't directly related to them? Probably not, unless it's some deliberately controversial subject meant to get under someone's skin, in which case it's far more likely that multiple people will be asking for it to stop. I'm well aware that this behavior has always and will always be considered "haha that's just banter, just get a thicker skin or leave OOC", which just partially exiles the player because now they can't communicate with the community unless they're on the forums. Sure, the characters interact, but I think with how much people yell it, we're all well aware that the characters aren't the people who play them.

Personally, I'm more focused on the second part of my complaint. The first part I'm very, very well aware everyone thinks it's just banter save for just a few people because who wants to punish someone for being cruel as a joke? But the second part, some line has to be drawn somewhere, Garnascus, or even just staff in general. There has to be a point where if someone has said in looc to stop, they should stop harassing and laughing at their situation. If someone has asked for this ghost crowd to stop, then it should stop. I don't think that's unreasonable. I think it's reasonable for warnings to be given out for behavior like this when it's clearly expressed that the individual they're targeting is not fond of it. There's a time when banter has just become bullying, and just because everyone else is laughing, if everyone is laughing at one person or their situation, is it really any different than bullying? It's not banter at that point anymore when it's all directed at one person. People skirt around by directing it at one topic and then people inevitably get offended if they pick one "juicy" enough.

I just think that there should be a line drawn between bullying and banter, and when that difference is made, it should actually mean something. The first half, sure, it's banter, I won't argue it because I know it's banter to a lot of people. But the second half is not banter in the end. It's people mocking someone's situation after repeated requests for them to stop as well as repeated statements that they're being cruel or messed up. That's not banter when it gets to the point of continuing after the person being targeted has said enough is enough.

i mean, did they at least ahelp it? i have literally no idea where they are getting they would be banned if they ghosted.

I very rarely invoke the rule "only post if involved". I think i am going to do it now. This topic has been derailed into oblivion and now we are gettin pretty malicious over nebulous issues. I get if you're frustrated over something but contrary to what some of may think i do want to help. After looking into the meat of the OP closer i honestly dont see much to punish over. I dont mind when people get heated over various issues in OOC and i also dont care if they attack staff. Usually a grain of truth exists at least.

I was present in the round for both incidents, just an FYI.

i know, thats why your posts survived the purge .

On the part of the complaint concerning me, man up. There's a toggle OOC button for a reason. If you don't want to see it, toggle it. The staff present obviously thought it wasn't a problem, everyone was having a reasonable discussion in OOC, so what's your problem here?

On the second part: Jesus christ learn how to seperate yourself from your character. "To the point where I had to ghost or flip"? Christ almighty, do you want to go back to your safe space now?

M-muh feelings got hurt and things were being talked about that I didn't like! Shut it down!

after a discussion in the staff discord, the following 3 has been given each a full week ban, Lordraven001, LemonTheFruit, Normaldeath.

due to continued breaking of rule 1 on OOC.

pending input from Incog on chaznoodles since it seems they dealt with this particular incident.

the other ckeys are still pending investigation and discussion.

Mind you, I have already spoken to Jessica and explained my misunderstanding-- apologizing for any discomfort received on my behalf. In this case, I was a late-join and only saw the very end of what was happening that round. Based on the general hype, in looc, I got excited -- it seemed like that round had gone off the rails. It's important to point out that people, even admins, often make comments in LOOC when IC events are taking a turn -- either for the best or worse. An example of this, would be when I was part of a failed attempt at assaulting Telecoms -- an admin was readily available to "kek" in LOOC. In a game where violence often gets the best of us, it's hard say that one situation is worse than another-- as they're all player driven. Nevertheless, once the individual in captivity expressed frustration, and, disinterest in seemed to tone down; however, they did still ghost -- in the end. Again, while I didn't see the entire ordeal, I will say that the interactions I witnessed seemed very IC. As late-join, I only saw a few comments from Jessica -- none of with were expressing people to, "stop". If they were uncomfortable, at that point, I simply lacked the experience of her character to understand her limitations IC/OOC. Upon joining, MERC was about to end -- I ghosted to find where the action was at. On the MERC ship, I saw a menacing mercenary considering harming a hostage. From what I understood, based on the IC dialogue, there was some sort of agreement between the MERCs and N.S.S. Staff -- it fell through. From my perspective, it appeared as if the MERC didn't want to kill the hostage, but was going to send body parts back to the Heads of Staff, as punishment for backing out of whatever deal was made. In the end, I believe the Hostage taker decided to place an explosive implant in her in order to accommodate frustration (intending to send her back on station) but once the character ghosted -- it ended before it got that far.

Let's be honest, this game can take, often, rather dark turns. In fact, just the other night, I was forced into an isolation room, with a woman (my patient), and expressly told I would have to kill her. We were both infected by a virus (traitor virologist) and our trial, by combat, would end in one of us receiving the cure. Personally, as someone who was recently taken hostage, I am sure that my aggressor could have killed me right off the bat; however, I have come to learn that if you play along, more often than not, the story will go on. In my case, security came to my rescue just as I was about to be executed-- after refusing to harm my patient. While, I cannot say the same would have happened, in the situation which we're debating, many options were available at the time to express discomfort-- both OOC/IC and Adminhelp.

Let it be known, if anyone wants to torture me, I am perfectly fine with it. Most of us are adults (I hope) and are perfectly capable of limited self-censorship-- drawing our own personal boundaries. The real concern, lies in the fact that an individual, from this server, feared that they would be banned for not partaking in actions which made them uncomfortable. This simply cannot happen. No one should ever feel pressured, by server policy (or Admin staff) to continue to roleplay an event which cross their own (OOC) moral or social boundary. While, I fear it is too strict, as a server policy, to limit experiences based on individual needs; S.S.D. should always be an option (a known disease) -- perfectly acceptable for people who simply have had 'enough'.

Just my two shillings.

I apologize for any problems I caused. I am relatively new and honestly thought it was a friendly back and forth. However, I think I took it too far. I asked an admin about it an apologized after the incident.

My previous statement still stands. As does my signature.

My previous statement still stands. As does my signature.

http://www.wikihow.com/Apologize

Honestly, I don't give a shit about hurt feelings, what matters is that the rules barring this sort of conduct were broken and you all need to own up to it.

After a lengthy discussion with our staff about the OOC shitfest we have applied week bans to lemon, lordraven, and chaz. All of these players have a sort of history with causing a ruckus in OOC. This went over the line, period and its not something we are going to allow here. Normaldeath is a new player and hes apologized so lets just leave it at that. This doesnt have to be a "safe place" but you are expected to keep things civil. Remember the golden rule folks "dont be a dick".

So, what we're saying here is, when someone gets super-offended on the internet because they don't know how to take a joke, other people get banned for it, with no stepping-in from the online staff at the time?

M-muh feelings, muh hugbox

And here was me thinking Aurora had chilled to a point where we could have a good joke and debate in OOC

See Delta's post.

http://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6289&p=62735&sid=4f23c56470d6ec1bd7fe97245aabc196#p62735

I figured this thread and post was relevant. A player left because of toxicity in OOC and it wasn't like the 'old times'. I've experienced a little of the 'old times'.

See Delta's post.

http://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6289&p=62735&sid=4f23c56470d6ec1bd7fe97245aabc196#p62735

I figured this thread and post was relevant. A player left because of toxicity in OOC and it wasn't like the 'old times'. I've experienced a little of the 'old times'.

That's because people were deliberately targeting him with toxicity and hatred. It wasn't someone getting offended over a joke.

"Let me kys you lemon"

I want to post and ask where we plan on drawing the line.

It's clear that Chaz and the mates didn't actually mean to demand for Lucychan to kill himself, otherwise they wouldn't have abbreviated it into a stupid joke term.

That said, they still did say "you should kys" as bait, and people can get buttmad from this - something that's perfectly understandable, as it does mean kill yourself, sarcastic or not.

I wouldn't digest it as anything other than bait, though. Coming from Chaz and Lemon, I can assure you they meant it entirely sarcastically. Kys IS a very ironically used term adopted from LeafyIsHere's spamming subscriber base.

I'd rather not be facing a week long ban in the future for saying "Ur fat xd" to someone in OOC, and I hope we don't use this post as a way to TIGHTEN OOC rules. Chaz and Lemon were right on the border of 'don't be a dick' and tbh they did go overboard in telling Lucychan to personally 'kys'. Because of that I understand the ban, but I don't think this is a good example of why we need to restrict OOC further. The guys got punished, no harm done, they can come back in a week, no one died in real life, especially by suicide, and no one left the server; this is not a black day in the server's history.

Instead of forcing more restrictive OOC rules in the future, why don't the admins just do their job and mute OOC in the future and PM the players involved asking them to maybe not be so abrasive? If they refuse, just mute them from OOC personally. It's worked for me, and I was admin on one of the spammiest piece of shit servers to ever exist.