Chada1

I'd like to point out, there are only 2-3 (And VERY RARELY 4) 'borgs on the Station on a round per round basis (That's generally 40-60 people on high pop) without some serious luck or dedication from R&D, so it is kinda important that the 'borg modules are capable of a variety of things. Now, I'm not saying that Rescue should be able to do Chemistry or Surgery, but it should definitely have the tools it has rn, the crowbar, flash, fire extinguisher, etc. There are definitely tools that 'borgs should have regardless of what module they're in and regardless of what niche they have. The problem rn is that there are some seriously underserved 'borg modules, people have been updating the hecc out of the medical and engineering module without changing their sub-modules (rescue and construction) at all. Construction is still on par with the Engineering module but not because it's up to date, it's just because it always had v. good tools. The TLDR: maybe not laser focus, but definitely they need lanes and niches, so that if a 'borg went Rescue and a 'borg went Medical, they wouldn't both do the same tasks, they'd have separate tasks they're v. good at. Edit: AND PLEASE MAKE THAT POST, I WANT TO READ IT.

This sounds very easy to fix actually ?

I can try but like... Whatever effect I add has to be different enough from the VTEC that it doesn't carry over between modules at least, like its own tool, and I could make it drain battery faster if it were an actual tool/etc. So it makes a lot of sense to just make it a thing you toggle by adding it to one of your 3 tool slots. Not really hammering a button in that case, but selecting it.

Me mentioning a tool that the combat 'borg has doesn't mean I'm adding the combat 'borg. The speedboost worked for it, and it made it very good at retrieving Crew quickly, as it stands, you're basically assured to be dead if you get in trouble on the Asteroid, it's a thing many EMT players complain about, and they're much faster than a 'borg is, so it really is important. Me adding some things doesn't mean other things shouldn't also be fixed, but the idea that I should fix those things before I consider adding other things -- I don't agree with that.

Noone 'Brought the axe down on them' in the first place, the tools aren't there because noone has added them, that's really it. The Rescue Module hasn't been updated in a veeery long time, the last addition I think was actually from me adding basic tools to them, the flash/etc. They already can, there's a jetpack module that can be applied to many of the modules, but is extremely expensive. Rescue would be the only one who would get it all to itself without the upgrade, and it's just from necessity of retrieving Crew from the Asteroid. By the same logic, it was a waste of time to give a speedboost tool to the Combat 'borg ? And yet it made the combat 'borg one of the best modules hands down for rescuing people, which is kinda in practice why this isn't true. Most 'borg modules have only gained tools, they haven't lost them. Other servers just have different tools than Aurora does. I'm as experienced as you if not more when it comes to playing 'borgs. It would make them more viable, they don't get the kinds of tools that the medical module does, noone is going to request a removal of synthetics or an extreme nerf over the Rescue 'borg becoming more mobile than the other modules, especially if it doesn't have the more dangerous tools like the circular saw/scalpel/etc. As another note, if Mechs can have jetpacks, it seems crazy to say that 'borgs can't, they aren't heavier than mechs.

I doubt it will too, so like. Best to just improve rescue in other ways.

These concerns are misplaced, since the Rescue 'borg in specific has no ability to do chemistry or surgery, it has basically one single niche which is triage and EMT stuff, so like. Anything that helps them get onto and off of the asteroid is within that niche. The VTEC module while super useful changes your base speed, so it's not comparable to a sprint, and then it also requires resources that you won't get in most rounds, and no 'borg module should depend on upgrades to simply be viable, which is how it is rn in that sense. The jetpack issue is true but I think in the unique case of Rescue could be excused, since Rescue really is the only 'borg module that should be able to do this, it'd be a unique enough thing that made it able to outbeat the Medical module in its niche is my thinking.

Thank you very much for all of these suggestions and I'll take them into account when updating the module soon, but I'm already planning to update the module. I plan to give it a speedboost similar to the old Combat speedboost, except slower, so it's more onpar with a human sprint, and then I may also update the other medical tools and/or give it a functional jetpack, another way to improve it further would be to allow it to climb ladders, but I'm worried that won't be received well.

@Playbahnosh Thank you for the input and I'll try these ideas out in practice and see if they're decent

They've been extremely helpful and understanding so far in my interactions with them, I can't really see a dev position going wrong, they seem quick to help others and at least so far are turning out a lot of good code changes. So I'm in support ?

Well, I guess that settles this then, because if the reception is this negative, I guess it's better to consider other options and/or drop the concept altogether. @Amunak I'm sorry that you coded this and then it's not going anywhere, still thank you so much for helping me with it. Also thank you everyone for the feedback.

To note, the idea of this change comes on the back of years of trying to influence and direct the player culture (And the stigma) surrounding borgs and AI into a different direction, both as a player of 'borgs who saw that they're really one role on the station that exists nearly just to help the Station/round flow smoothly and also noticing a p. nasty prejudice around them, removing the Security module helped to reduce the idea of them as being a thing cut off from the Crew that just shuts down the round/etc and ruins everyone else's fun, but the stigma of them being this is still extremely present, it doesn't take much looking around to find someone prejudiced against them (And also prejudiced against people who play them), my goal is that this would shift away from that, since outside of chassis tampering/antaggery, the Crew (and the Antags) could depend on the borgs to roleplay out situations, as opposed to rushing into them with a circular saw raised. This is a thing my law changes were also meant to do, and they helped, but the stigma is still very much here. This is true, if you were to get Antimov uploaded into your core, with this change, you couldn't comply with it, but you can look at this from another angle too, you actually can't comply with Antimov (Or lawsets like it) as a lawset without getting banned right now, if you did follow antimov, you'd end up ganking multiple other players and potentially being synth banned. Antimov as a lawset isn't actually useable on this server as it stands if you take it literally and apply it as it was intended. Antimov as a lawset probably shouldn't even exist on the server, I think it only really does because noone has bothered to update our lawsets. Going back to the issue of uploading laws, the issue with making it as simple as overwriting the lawset to give borgs the ability to then start doing this thing again, is that it could be abused not unlike combat borgs used to be abused, or how a player culture had built around using the AIs bolting for locking down an Antag, the crew could make it a point to override this fail safe during code blue/red as a norm and then the change is functionally just a slight inconvenience to returning back to how it was before. With lawsets, it makes sense for them to change the behavior of a 'borg, but it could be more beneficial for the server for only Antag 'borgs in particular to be able to directly harm Crew/Antags, instead they could have a very strong role just contributing to that goal, it really is just the same logic of why we chose to remove the security 'borg. But the idea of making it something that's attached to lawsets is possible too if it's deemed as necessary. As for being restricting, the lawsets are already p. darn restricting, and their reason for being this restricting is mostly just to prevent borgs from using their laws to justify undesirable behavior, attacking crew/antags being the worst offender of this. It also is true that if this is merged, I plan to give 'borgs more tools if I'm allowed to, including speedboosts that would drain your cell at a high rate (Kinda like borg sprinting), I also plan to add more tools to other modules if allowed. As it stands I can't give these things to borgs because they can be used to validhunt against antags/etc, it's also worth mentioning that before this PR was coded, I was in the process of nerfing a lot of 'Borg tools damage explicitly to achieve a similar thing to this, this just seems to be a much better solution than that.

Removing Camera coverage would be p. awful for AIs since their ability to roleplay/even watch is also proportional to their camera coverage.is the problem with that butter. Lordnesh, that's a v. good idea but I dunno how hard it'd be to code.

I'm personally a fan of these changes, it brings back the ability for the AI to bolt down high security areas like the vault, command, departmental storage areas, and its own core. But doesn't allow it the ability to lock in Antags and other crew anymore, which was where the main issue would spring up, I think you did a very good job understanding where this issue arised and taking old threads into account when designing these changes, and so even as one of the people who spearheaded the change initially, I'm happy with how this PR is setup.

I'll look at these soon:tm: and see, I might be able to add the colors or replace our current ones if they look better. ?

Before I vanish off the face of the server I have one or two 'Borg projects I want to finish, the first is this. Making the 'borg department colors more vibrant and lovely, but I need some suggestions/feedback to get it right, I think. I'm good at telling if colors look good, but not so great at picking out complementary colors. The colors we have rn are: And note I'm excluding the sub-departments like construction, custodial, etc on purpose, as they'll share their main departments colors, or take the closest color available to them. Medical: Lightblue. Also two darker shades of it, but we're after a new color to go with it. All departmental sprites will have it. What would the second color be? A shade of green? Engineering: Orange. Also two darker shades of it, same stuff. What would the complimentary color be? A shade of yellow? Science: Purple. Darker shades too. No clue what complimentary color. Mining: Brown. Darker shades too. Yellow as a complimentary color? Service: Swamp Green. No clue what complimentary color that could be added to this.

Oof Aboshehab/Prate beat me to it, medical intern is the best shot I think. Keeping it as Medical Resident at all seems like it's just going to go through endless revisions like this.

As a counter suggestion, why not rename the role entirely to 'Medical Orderly', so it can be anyone from a doctor going through residency to just a medical assistant? Medical Resident as a whole seems like a thing Aurora should steer clear of, it has a lot of real life baggage that noone wants to deal with. You avoid all of these issues by just renaming it and lowering the age requirement to 17

NP at all, and if you find other ways to improve the AI, go for it, DO IT ? And it was long after the addition of the whitelist system, but even if Command members were careful about it, it's... still very hazy on if a Security member (JUST an officer) requesting the AI to do a thing like blocking off an Antagonist, could actually be refused. I'm p. sure you'd have to really Really push it to actually say no, and it'd be a no from the perspective of OOCly giving the Antagonist room to breath, not an actual IC no... which would still be a problem. I doubt anyone would mind adding open-bolting back into the game, the developer who coded the removal actually has a draft PR up for it, they've just been super busy. And open bolting is positive utility, not the awful negative utility, so it'd be in the clear.

Also, for anyone reading, I edited my post there.

There's an intricate justification for why the AI (And 'borgs) lost the ability to bolt closed and as one of the people who undertook that change in their design I can explain why. One of the things you've suggested as a potential use turned out to be near the actual only use that was called for. Instead of being called to protect Crew from harm, Command and Station Crew, sometimes even the AI, but not always, were using the AI as a weapon against Antagonists, it's not even only the AIs fault. A player culture actually formed around requesting the AI to bolt the Antagonists into a room or block it off, so Security could shut the round down. This is completely unpreventable under the AIs' lawset, since if a Command member requests they do a thing, they generally do a thing within reason. This is what we know as negative utility, utility that is actually negative to the narrative of the round. You can even wonder why a Command member shouldn't request the AI to do this, it's actually not that unreasonable ICly. We want to remove as much of this negative utility from the game as possible and implement as much positive utility as possible. Any valid, positive utility, use of bolting closed, the AI can just as easily use by pulling the fire alarm for the area, or dropping the fire shutters for afew rooms. It doesn't need bolting closed to maintain those uses. Which is why we reached the conclusion of removal. Positive utility being stuff that actually contributed to the narrative of the round, like actually protecting the Crew from harm and disasters, instead of shutting down the narrative via bolting in antagonists/etc. (Edit: Actually no the ability to bolt open was only drawn up as a possibility, it was never added so removing that part.) The gameplay station-wide has improved like 10fold since the AI lost the ability, too, so practically, it's holding up.

I'm also a fan even if I brought up some of the other core issues on Discord to you, +1.

As of now, most of the things mentioned except the sleepers have been addressed, saline plus has been nerfed some and the recipe is simplified, no more odd numbers, and afew other changes too, credit to sadkermit for them.

Hello, I'm the one who mostly reworked the Revolution gamemode, tho I had been consistently making changes and adjusting via feedback, I'm likely not going to have the time to change it further, so I'm v. much open to any changes that could fix it's current problems, as for removing it from rotation, that likely wouldn't fix the problems since I've already upped the fellow/contender round start members by 2x the old amount, the problem is so few people actually *have* their preferences for rev on, so it's barely noticeable except in high pop.

I like this idea too, but I dunno how hard it'd be to code in.