[2 dismissals: archive 25/09/18] A call for stricter enforcement of code red protocols and self-formed civilian militia.

[Kaed]

I've already given a pitch for the militia regulation in page 2. You should have read it already if you are reading this, but if for some reason, you ignored the forum thread rules and skilled ahead, here:

https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=124&t=11920&start=10#p105701

I'm not interested in making this a thread about arguing my or the behavior of the mobs in the rounds I was in any father than it already is. Instead of asking me 'is this about X round' maybe we can focus on the actual topic of the thread.

[SatinsPristOTD]

If Security can't be trusted and you're put into a "fight or flight" situation (and flight's a bit hard since you're stuck on that station until a shuttle arrives), then I don't see an issue with people arming themselves, holing up in room they deem as a "sanctuary", and trying to wait out the storm. I have no weapons training at all, but I can pick up a baseball bat and take swing at some creep.

Of course, if it's a militia just to be a militia and security can handle the situation, then yeah... that needs to be addressed. But we've already got a pretty 'set" definition of when a militia should be formed. It's when the "oh shit" moment happens and you realize you are defenseless against the very people that are there to protect you (or if they're dead.)

If Engineerings handing out spears....okay? Engineer's utilize a singularity as a power source and are basically mad scientists with a wrench. I don't see a problem in them making make-shift spears, nor do I see a problem with a civilian picking that spear up and defending themselves. Spears are so mundane, that cavemen figured it out.

So why do we need to enforce protocols when MOST of the time we see a civvy militia is because Sec can't be trusted/is dead? Those are people with wives, children and goals in life. You put them in a corner where they think they may die, or lose their God given right of self-choice and they WILL go into self-preservation mode. It's... pretty realistic. Not everyone is a coward, and in fact... you'll find a lot more people will fight for their life than hide in a locker and cry themselves to dehydration.

[Scheveningen]

characters should have the right to defend themselves if security can't do it for them

It's also a waste of time to dictate very specific circumstances where it is or isn't allowed because guidelines for definition can be stretched very easily dependent on the situation. I'm sure neither an admin or mod wants to make it their goal to speak to 10 different people to get 10 completely different subjective opinions on whether or not a militia forming was valid during the course of a round. That's almost as wasteful of one's time as learning Latin, a dead language that nobody (religious groups aside) even speaks anymore. If you want a round where nothing happens and thus nobody does anything interesting and/or unorthodox, why not vote extended?

[Butterrobber202]

We could simply say

Hey without training or related work experience your characters can do these things

Weapons:

- Swing a blunt weapon such as a bat or stool

- Use basic knives

Etc.

Construction:

- Throw up a wooden or metal barricade. (we’ll say plasteel is a bit advanced for the non-trained)

-construct tables and flip them

-Weld vents and lockers

Honestly a detailed ‘General Knowledge’ guide would do us a lot of good.

[TheSleepyCatmom]

I've been told I cannot make furniture with 'untrained' in construction. I'm also unable to use a welder to weld things closed or construct flooring. But I may place tiling if needed. :shrug: The list isn't very comprehensive currently, I agree one's needed.

[Bauser]

I hope such a list isn't made, because I fear it would be used in the future to enforce those restrictions mechanically.

E.G.

"Well it says here that unless you're trained, you don't know how to use a welding torch to crudely melt a door shut. So we're going to make it so you can't do that unless you have the appropriate skills selected in the character setup."

[Brutishcrab51]

We could simply say

Hey without training or related work experience your characters can do these things

Weapons:

- Swing a blunt weapon such as a bat or stool

- Use basic knives

Etc.

Construction:

- Throw up a wooden or metal barricade. (we’ll say plasteel is a bit advanced for the non-trained)

-construct tables and flip them

-Weld vents and lockers

Honestly a detailed ‘General Knowledge’ guide would do us a lot of good.

I agree with the Construction list, not the Weapons list.

Have you ever actually held a spear? A sword? A telescopic baton, or a shield? How about an axe? It's not as hard as you think to use all of the above (except a sword, but for a different reason) effectively. A spear is -the- simplest weapon outside of a club that people can use, you poke people with it, spears made up the majority of weaponry used by untrained peasant armies typically associated with feudal militaries of the early middle ages, and while they didn't quite compare to trained soldiers, it doesn't take a lot of skill or training to use them. At all.

Swords? Eh, manage your edge alignment and you'll be fine. A baton has the same concept as a club, and an axe is a club with a sharp edge. It's inappropriate to claim that people shouldn't be able to use those weapons, the answer is to what extent they'd be capable of using them. They won't be doing kick-flips and 1v3ing swordsmen as a master spearman, but they can stab someone in the gut, twist and pull out of that five-year veteran just as easily as anyone else.

Also, please, please, don't make a regulation surrounding and legitimizing the formation of civilian militias. That goes to the CCIA who'd consider that a potential policy, please, no. Please.

I can't offer any answers personally, but lessening what people can and can't use on grounds such as inexperience or even blatantly never holding a weapon is not the way to go.

[Butterrobber202]

SNIP

Snip again!

 

You bet ya biscuits I’ve held those weapons before, yeehaw long live the south! tips cowboy hat

The south's Weapon fetish aside, I’d agree with you that spears, pikes, and other various pokey things are fair game. It might be easier to tell people what not to use then list all the things you can.

Mainly most melee weapons outside of finesse weapons are great, cool, and easy to use. The number one category of weapons I believe that should be restricted are guns.

Firing an average gun accurately is fucking hard. Like REALLY hard. Firing a rifle is much easier than firing a pistol. But without training or experience firing ballistic weapons should be a no-go if it can be helped. I’m unsure about energy weapons since our loredevs haven’t clarified if energy weapons have recoil or not, or some other kind of disadvantage.

So we'll just lovingly page the man himself

[mention]Senpai Jackboot[/mention]

[Kaed]

While I can't dispute that wielding a pointy stick should be theoretically easy enough for anyone, things like chainsaws should be out, and I really think we need to move manufacture of some things, like pike heads and metal bats, to hacked autolathes, instead of stack crafting.

And I still think that forming some kind of regulation around militia groups is the best way to combat vigilante mob problems.

[Arrow768]

So I came up with an idea to make this an IC regulation. Now this is a draft, and if someone has ideas to revise it, feel free, because it's pretty rough. Maybe it's a directive? I don't know.

Emergency Defense Militia Regulation

In the event that the station should be placed under sufficient danger that the lives of the crew at large are threatened, permission may be sought from the Heads of Staff to form an Emergency Militia for defense. A common area with viable and preferably numerous escape points must be designated by agreement or command authority as an Emplacement, and non-combat personnel are to congregate in the Emplacement location, and fortify it for defense by whatever means are most available and efficient. Non-combat personnel are to remain in the Emplacement during the emergency situation unless the emplacement itself must be evacuated due to a present danger to everyone inside.

Heads of Staff should not grant Emergency Militia status except as a last resort, when all other options for station defense have failed. Crew who form an emergency militia without sufficient cause or permission must dissolve the militia, and all weapons in their possession are to be considered contraband as in normal station operations.

So the main points here are that:

-Militias become regulated ICly, rather than just something that happens and is tolerated unofficially

-Militia being regulated means they have standard operations. Because they have a direction and protocols, lynch mobs stop happening except for people who want to go vigilante, and they can be dealt with separately.

-I didn't put in anything about it, because I wasn't sure how to regulate it, but a severe cutback on stack-manufactured weaponry needs to happen. What we should be seeing is people armed with stuff they picked up around like kitchen knives and toolboxes. What we are seeing instead is SHIELDS and PIKES and SPEARS because someone thought it would be fun to include them (it is) but now they are being abused by everyone the moment danger shows up. This should not turn into medieval castle simulator the moment cargo is in danger. In actual medieval times these items were difficult to make and were shite if they weren't done right. A forge and stuff was required. Adding them in as something you can magically fold by hand is the only way to do it mechanically, I'm sure, but it's incredibly immersion breaking and abusable. Ideally, restricting their creation to antagonists only.

 

A militia is definitely not something that you would want to have during standard operation and should be forbidden (it already is due to neglect of duty, trespassing, possession of contraband, assault, ...).

During non-standard operation (i.e. shits fucked) there is enough wiggle-room to ignore certain existing regulations if it ensures the survival of the station.

A official IC policy that determines if, when and how a "militia" can be formed would acknowledge that the station regularly faces threats that can wipe out the entire security department.

Otherwise there would be no need for a official ic policy that regulates that.

Therefore I am heavily opposed to the idea of a IC policy.

[Kaed]

A militia is definitely not something that you would want to have during standard operation and should be forbidden (it already is due to neglect of duty, trespassing, possession of contraband, assault, ...).

During non-standard operation (i.e. shits fucked) there is enough wiggle-room to ignore certain existing regulations if it ensures the survival of the station.

A official IC policy that determines if, when and how a "militia" can be formed would acknowledge that the station regularly faces threats that can wipe out the entire security department.

Otherwise there would be no need for a official ic policy that regulates that.

Therefore I am heavily opposed to the idea of a IC policy.

 

We're on a station that actively has multiple means for civilians to make weapons and barricades and has protocols for alien encounters and attacks, with different threat levels going up to Red, where everyone has to stay in their department while security sorts it out, but it's inconceivable that there might be emergency protocols in place for the security team to have been killed during one of the emergency situations we already have protocols in place for?

Sorry, what? Is nanotrasen so arrogant as to think their security department will magically fix every problem? What about situations where they're staffed with like, one security cadet? A company with internal security has to think about possibilities where their normal operation is compromised. "Let the civilians figure it out I'm sure they won't break our expensive station in a confused panic' is not a solution.

Not to mention it's canonically acknowledged at this point the station has a self destruct built into it. No one is surprised by this. If they have a FUBAR button, they can have options for less extreme but still bad situations.

[Trazz666]

I honestly believe this thread needs to end. It's becoming dangerously derailed. It's gone from one person's complaint about being killed (which I get it, we've all been there) and asking for stricter OOC handling of similar situations, which have already been addressed, to talks about implementing mechanical restrictions that don't need to be put in place.

In roleplaying, we strive for one thing: to emulate a person. A person's life experience can't be boiled down to [untrained-amateur-trained-professional] with any means of uniformity because that's not how people work. Making it so you can't do x action without y experience filled out is limiting, doesn't actually represent personal experience accurately, and makes the game less fun.

As for trying to force the limitations of bat/pike blade making to hacked autolathes, that idea just needs to be passed over entirely. For one, that prevents the making of bats/blades from different materials. It also brings up the question: if people can make actual walls with steel and their bare hands, why can't they make a blunt club with it? Which, clearly isn't possible in real life, but sets a dangerous precedent for removing key mechanical functions because of salt/complaints it's not realistic. Yes, irl you can't make a crowbar or screwdriver out of a metal rod with your hands, but it's a vital mechanic in-game.

[Butterrobber202]

Actually my thing isn’t mechanical, it’s just something on the wiki that goes

Yea, you can poke someone without training.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Hello, I got pinged about energy weapons recoil. Lasers don't have a recoil, that would be very strange. There is no explosion propelling the bullet out of the gun, it is just a laser beam. Recoil is already mostly presented mechanically with some automatic weapons 'spraying' when fired, or someone wildly clicking on a moving target.

Militias themselves are part of the fallout caused by the lines "im stressed" or "im scared", which are justifications to do things as a non-antag that are generally not allowed. The most high profile examples are security officers torturing an antagonist in custody, and when ahelped they would say "im stressed [because the antag killed my friend]".

To me these sorts of things are inexcusable when they are used in bad faith. It's very easy to tell when someone has ill intentions. There are a lot of variables in specific situations, but at the end of the day, it boils down to whether or not the militia coldly executes anyone that they get their hands on. A militia that fights the antag, cablecuffs them, and drags them to medical or hides them in their own department and slaps some bandages on them, is far different from a militia that chases the antag down the hall, downs them, and empties their clip into their skull.

This sort of thing probably does not apply to constructs specifically. You are a giant spooky monster caught alone with no cult support. You suffered the juggernauts primary weakness. It's a slow tank and, like real life tanks, needs faster moving infantry around it. However, if they chased you down the hall as you said, then the militia goes from being reactive and defensive, to proactive and offensive.

[ShameOnTurtles]

There have been some good points brought up in this thread. Some civilian militias can feel 'cheap' and I think the solution to this rests on a few things.

Unfortunately what would possibly be the best option is to have a moderator/administrator constantly observing and monitoring the militia, as it forms and acts. This is not a reliable way to moderate behaviour and isn't really feasible.

[mention]Mofo1995[/mention] brought up a great point. I think we can all do little things to help improve the game experience for others. Sometimes those poppies are appropriate and sometimes not.

[mention]Kaed[/mention], on the idea of there being IC policy regulating militias, I am not in support. NanoTrasen having policy saying that 'if Security is dead do this..." does not promote confidence in the department, nor does it give any sense of safety to the crew. Barricades and weapons made are primarily makeshift, not official armoury contents. In regards to low staff numbers, IC policy is based off when each department has the necessary members to function, primarily when it is full, not what we experience during lowpop. Last thing on this note: no one but the Captain knows there is a self-destruct on station, so anyone not them that acts with knowledge of the nuclear device should be adminhelped.

 

Militias themselves are part of the fallout caused by the lines "im stressed" or "im scared", which are justifications to do things as a non-antag that are generally not allowed. The most high profile examples are security officers torturing an antagonist in custody, and when ahelped they would say "im stressed [because the antag killed my friend]".

To me these sorts of things are inexcusable when they are used in bad faith. It's very easy to tell when someone has ill intentions. There are a lot of variables in specific situations, but at the end of the day, it boils down to whether or not the militia coldly executes anyone that they get their hands on. A militia that fights the antag, cablecuffs them, and drags them to medical or hides them in their own department and slaps some bandages on them, is far different from a militia that chases the antag down the hall, downs them, and empties their clip into their skull.

[...]

However, if they chased you down the hall as you said, then the militia goes from being reactive and defensive, to proactive and offensive.

I think this really hits the nail on the head. Militias are a defensive tool. They are not an excuse to validhunt, and this includes chasing retreating antags (to an extent). Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to moderate how people use weapons, but I would expect anyone who kills someone else, even if the person they killed was an antag, to properly roleplay out the effects that killing someone would have on the average person.

Garn is correct where it is not feasible to comb through each person's records to see if they have weapons training. Suffice to say, only engineers or those with the proper knowledge should be making makeshift weapons but for the most part, anyone can use them. Guns are a bit more difficult to use and should be ICly treated as such.

I will bring this up with other staff to make sure our views are consistent, but I don't think any policy changes are necessary. I think the primary solution rests with the community to double check whether the militia they are forming is valid, and other people to adminhelp what they feel is questionable behaviour.

[mention]Kaed[/mention] what do you think about this?

[Kaed]

[mention]ShameOnTurtles[/mention]

I guess I kind of get why you think militia regulations aren't workable, though I'm of the opinion they should be added anyway.

This is mostly because I have no faith in people's abilities to 'act in good faith'. People are by and large only concerned with winning in games. With feeling like they accomplished the 'goal'. They complain that in civilian roles they are bored without the excitement of being able to watch the antags, so they come up with ways to be able to engage them.

We try to create this environment where we're supposed to care about things like 'round progression' and 'fear roleplay' and 'character knowledge', but the staff seems determined to take a light touch. And things like easy to make medieval weaponry, a better cargo ordering system, new drugs growable in hydroponics, and a warehouse of procedural generated treats are added to the game, making a militia force viable out of cargo, without adding anything new to regulate them being used to arm up civvies in emergencies beyond the same light administrative oversight.

So I'm of the mind that it will continue to happen unless something nips it off. Militia groups will become the new meta for bored players who want to feel empowered to fight the antagonists even though it wasn't feasible or encouraged before all these things were added. This is usually called 'power creep'.

Maybe whatever you're offering to discuss with the other staff is a step to controlling it. I don't think it will, but I can recognize when no one takes my thoughts on something particularly seriously. So I guess it will have to do.

[Faris]

Maybe whatever you're offering to discuss with the other staff is a step to controlling it. I don't think it will, but I can recognize when no one takes my thoughts on something particularly seriously. So I guess it will have to do.

 

Just because you say people aren’t taking you seriously, doesn’t mean people actually aren’t.

You’ve managed to generate five pages of thoughtout and credible discussion from both sides of the community. That’s not how people show they don’t take you seriously.

If you default to this argument when a discussion doesn’t go your way, then this will actually happen and you won’t get this kind of feedback.

Onto the suggestion. I’ve been tracking this and I find myself in agreement with Shame. This is something for moderator enforcement. Obviously there’s always going to be the odd case there and there of people disagreeing.

Voting for dismissal.

[ShameOnTurtles]

Voting for dismissal. I don’t think any additional policy will help the issue.

[Nantei]

This sort of thing probably does not apply to constructs specifically. You are a giant spooky monster caught alone with no cult support. You suffered the juggernauts primary weakness. It's a slow tank and, like real life tanks, needs faster moving infantry around it. However, if they chased you down the hall as you said, then the militia goes from being reactive and defensive, to proactive and offensive.

I was actually there for this. They were chased just before the bathroom, and most of the militia had backed off by then. To contextualize: Before this we were told that security was all to be avoided at all costs. Two cultist security members walked into cargo's lobby where several of us were huddled up. There was a massive traffic jam and panic at the lobby door as people tried to run away, and several cultists attacked non-combatants (Myself included, of whom was unarmed and literally begging not to be harmed whilst in a corner). At this point the panic hits a feverpitch, and everyone mobs the cultists with the spears that we had made once they corner and start to maim Preston Prestoff, presumably with the intent to kill. Eventually the cultists drop, but they keep standing back up and attacking us, so one or two people in the militia stab them to death. A few minutes later, a juggernaut walks down. Everyone runs into cargo away from it, stabbing it all the way, and it chases. Seeing how slow it is, everyone mobs it and stabs it down the hall, although most of the militia backs off as they see it running, only one or two people chase it down to finish it off.

This is a pretty textbook case of self defense IMO. The cultists were continuing to attack us every time they stood up, restraining was pretty out of the question, and nobody was there to take charge either in order to coordinate that. The militia stayed near cargo at all times, eventually moving to a safer location in the construction layer.

In regards to guns being harder than melee weapons to use, though... that I just don't get. Guns are a massive force equalizer even with a novice user. They are dramatically easier to use in a fight as an amateur than melee weapons, they are quite literally designed that way. I try to roleplay my combat for my inexperienced people IE; having them try and run away during the fight or back themselves into a corner, but that's honestly extremely difficult to do in a convincing way. I'll purposely miss shots with guns and run around while shooting as a civvy (generally best to hold still for your shot then move), but I can't think of anyone who can't wrap their mind around a gun. If anything I might enjoy a mild skill system for that (Modifying accuracy and such), but I doubt anyone here wants that.