Departmental Security

[LordFowl]

I'm not going to try and dissect the paranoid rhetoric of an anti-security ,conspiracy but I will correct the presumption that security offices are outside of their departments, a misunderstanding that comes from somewhere surely although I don't know where because each of the images in the PR clearly show the security officer is located at the department's entrance:

Science's sec office, located at the entrance of science. The sec officer even has buttons to control the airlock for letting visitors in.

Engineering's sec office, located at the very first entrance to engineering.

Cargo's sec office, located at the entrance to cargo while also maintaining oversight of the bar. What is not pictured is the update that gave them a door with direct access to cargo also.

Medical's sec office, located above the lobby and next to virology. Medical's entrance is cramped enough, but I think this is a good place for it nonetheless.

So I'm not sure where you got the idea that the offices are located OUTSIDE the department they're working with, when the PR clearly shows otherwise.

[AmoryBlaine]

Looking out into an empty airlock entrance, looking out from across the hall from the department, just out of view of the cargo office while also not able to view the bar, and above the medical lobby- unable to even see who is in the medical office below. These locations do not concern themselves with encouraging 'cross-department interactions' that is spoken of and-as it appears- exist solely to isolate the officers from each other and from 'their' respective departments.

Edited March 28, 2019 by AmoryBlaine
Grammatical error

[LordFowl]

If your sole intention is to sit in your office all day, you are right in that you will not likely interact with the members of your department often. This is as true of departmental security as it is any other role. Regardless, my intent was simply to correct the false idea that the offices are located outside of their department, so I hope it is now clear that that is not the case.

[Azande]

All this arguing is going to continue in a big circle with nobody giving ground until the test-merge happens. I'd say this thread has no run it's course and any more discourse is just restating what's been said, Why don't we agree to not argue until the update is actually in affect?

[AmoryBlaine]

Where is the officer intended to be? What is the intention for the average Medical Officer, or Cargo Officer? What should their round look like? So far what I've heard is, "Well, they'll just walk around- like they do now- but, with a focus on their department." Does this mean, that unless there is an active threat in their department, they should be doing the exact same thing as they currently do? If this is the case, what is the point of this change. If the officers are still expected to go to active threats, and still act as they do now- why are we focusing on trying to cut them apart, only to put them back together? If the intent is for them to interact with these departments, why are their offices not right next to the most populated sections of these departments? If this is suppose to cut down on cohesion, why are they expected to literally do the same stuff as they do not, but just not have access to their own comms?

 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Where is the officer intended to be? What is the intention for the average Medical Officer, or Cargo Officer? What should their round look like? So far what I've heard is, "Well, they'll just walk around- like they do now- but, with a focus on their department." Does this mean, that unless there is an active threat in their department, they should be doing the exact same thing as they currently do? If this is the case, what is the point of this change. If the officers are still expected to go to active threats, and still act as they do now- why are we focusing on trying to cut them apart, only to put them back together? If the intent is for them to interact with these departments, why are their offices not right next to the most populated sections of these departments? If this is suppose to cut down on cohesion, why are they expected to literally do the same stuff as they do not, but just not have access to their own comms?

 

They are expected to be where officers already go. On patrol.

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, Senpai Jackboot said:

They are expected to be where officers already go. On patrol.

Does this mean, that unless there is an active threat in their department, they should be doing the exact same thing as they currently do? If this is the case, what is the point of this change. If the officers are still expected to go to active threats, and still act as they do now- why are we focusing on trying to cut them apart, only to put them back together? If the intent is for them to interact with these departments, why are their offices not right next to the most populated sections of these departments? If this is suppose to cut down on cohesion, why are they expected to literally do the same stuff as they do not, but just not have access to their own comms?
 

 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Its in the op

[AmoryBlaine]

Quote

But why?
All too often, Security never pays attention to other departments during Code Red. We are often forced to seek other avenues of defense, such as ordering guns, making pikes, creating gallons of acid, what have you. This change would be meant to pretty much force Security to actually, well, secure us. 

So the answer to Security not 'paying attention to other departments during Code Red' is to have them do what they currently do, but also have an office in each department that they aren't required to use, nor enouraged to- by means of placing it somewhere isolated and uneasy to communicate with fellow department staff- and focus on response to other departments if they are called.

[Crozarius]

 

6 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

So, I've now seen how the new layout will work. Security offices OUTSIDE the departments they're suppose to be operating with, with the exception of fucking Medical, who has their Security office in the attic. This is so blatantly a means to strip the station of any possible security defense and almost entirely fall to the antagonist's whims-- or seek out some good old fashion LRP militia action. The idea that sticking Officer Doe in some little tiny office in the hall of each department, completely away from where the rest of that department's personnel will be, is going to make X department warm up to them, while the individual officers all compete for the office they want to be stationed at, is absurd. And it's honestly quite fascinating that no one has called this out for the blatant attack that it is in security players to try and isolate them from each other, and the departments they're supposedly going to be warming up to- but then again, it ain't really about that, it really is just about finding an easier way to give antags full control of the situation and justify station militias.

 

 

You can leave the office and have access to the department you're assigned to. Nothing is stopping you from interacting with them.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Crozarius
whoops. tfw phoneposting

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, Crozarius said:

You can leave the office and have access to the department 

You can leave the office and have access to the department you're assigned to. Nothing is stopping you from interacting with them.

What is stopping me from interacting with them currently? The door is locked? I need to actually communicate with them, if I want to stomp around their department?

[Crozarius]

1 minute ago, AmoryBlaine said:

What is stopping me from interacting with them currently? The door is locked? I need to actually communicate with them, if I want to stomp around their department?

Same thing that stops me from interacting with people in their department when I'm Chef: no access. As a chef i don't have access into Engineering's swanky parties, and even if they let me in I'm still technically not supposed to be in there. Same with science, security, cargo... Etc. So yeah it absolutely makes it easier for you to interact with them. Also if you look into the IC side of it, its a bit more personal to have a security officer assisgned to protect you, they'd belong there rather than it having the feeling of an intrusion.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

5 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

What is stopping me from interacting with them currently? The door is locked? I need to actually communicate with them, if I want to stomp around their department?

You need warrants to enter those departments.

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, Senpai Jackboot said:

You need warrants to enter those departments.

Or, you can say, "Is it alright, character whom I interact with on a shiftly basis-as I do not isolate myself- that I enter your department to carry out security work?" This seems to work fine for me, for most Officers who don't act like jerks to other employees.

 

2 minutes ago, Crozarius said:

Same thing that stops me from interacting with people in their department when I'm Chef: no access. As a chef i don't have access into Engineering's swanky parties, and even if they let me in I'm still technically not supposed to be in there. Same with science, security, cargo... Etc. So yeah it absolutely makes it easier for you to interact with them. Also if you look into the IC side of it, its a bit more personal to have a security officer assisgned to protect you, they'd belong there rather than it having the feeling of an intrusion.

It's a bit more personal when the security officer is willingly coming to assist you, because your characters have both gotten to know each other, rather than the officer having an artificially enforced obligation to protect you more than an engineer, because he is assigned to your area.

[Crozarius]

3 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Or, you can say, "Is it alright, character whom I interact with on a shiftly basis-as I do not isolate myself- that I enter your department to carry out security work?" This seems to work fine for me, for most Officers who don't act like jerks to other employees.

 

It's a bit more personal when the security officer is willingly coming to assist you, because your characters have both gotten to know each other, rather than the officer having an artificially enforced obligation to protect you more than an engineer, because he is assigned to your area.

It isn't like these attitudes are mutually exclusive-- and am I not correct in the IC belonging and the tone of being able to be there as a deparment officer rather than as an intrusion? Also that this is legitimately lowering a barrier? 

[AmoryBlaine]

1 minute ago, Crozarius said:

It isn't like these attitudes are mutually exclusive-- and am I not correct in the IC belonging and the tone of being able to be there as a deparment officer rather than as an intrusion? Also that this is legitimately lowering a barrier? 

You're only an intrusion, if you are unwanted. Simply, become wanted- befriend and interact with characters in departments. This barrier only exists for people already unwilling to tear it down. Plus, we have guest passes for a reason.

[Conspiir]

3 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

You're only an intrusion, if you are unwanted. Simply, become wanted- befriend and interact with characters in departments. This barrier only exists for people already unwilling to tear it down. Plus, we have guest passes for a reason.

Why would our current officer system benefit in any way from needing to enter departments to patrol? They patrol around the hallways. Entering a department is a notable event. If an officer comes to cargo and says "I want to patrol your department", there will be an immediate defensiveness.

 

"Do you think we're hiding something?" "Go bother someone else, you don't have a warrant!" "Why? There's nothing here."

 

If the officer is literally a cargo officer, one that is expected (even if not happily) to be around, they have the right. It's their job. They check around, shoot the shit, they're a part of cargo. It's no longer "Us" and "Them", it's "Us, including our officer". No matter how """nice""" your security officer is, it will always be "Us" and "Them" because one character doesn't change an entire culture. And I don't know if departmental security will fix that in all cases. It may lead to the same sort of resentment we already see, but in closer proximity. Which is why it has to be test merged to see what will happen, because speculation will get us nowhere further than we've already gotten.

 

Whether it turns out good or bad, I can definitely see some good roleplay opportunities come from it. (Urist McCargoSec has arrived "SHIT HIDE THE CONTRABAND! …. No officer everything is fine :]")

Edited March 29, 2019 by Conspiir

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, Conspiir said:

Why would our current officer system benefit in any way from needing to enter departments to patrol? If an officer comes to cargo and says "I want to patrol your department", there will be an immediate defensiveness. 

 

"Do you think we're hiding something?" "Go bother someone else, you don't have a warrant!" "Why? There's nothing here."

 

If the officer is literally a cargo officer, one that is expected (even if not happily) to be around, they have the right. It's their job. They check around, shoot the shit, they're a part of cargo. It's no longer "Us" and "Them", it's "Us, including our officer". No matter how """nice""" your security officer is, it will always be "Us" and "Them" because one character doesn't change an entire culture. And I don't know if departmental security will fix that in all cases. It may lead to the same sort of resentment we already see, but in closer proximity. Which is why it has to be test merged to see what will happen, because speculation will get us nowhere further than we've already gotten.

 

Whether it turns out good or bad, I can definitely see some good roleplay opportunities come from it. (Urist McCargoSec has arrived "SHIT HIDE THE CONTRABAND! …. No officer everything is fine :]")

We do not need people patrolling departments as there is not an inherent threat in these areas. If an officer wishes to hang out with the medical team, or the cargo team, or the engineering team- he simply has to ask to come in. He can be let in, and given a guest pass. As for your point about the immediate defensiveness, perhaps you should consider that most everyone without an immediate tie to those present in the department being visited, is going to be questioned as to why they're entering.

 

Quote

If an EMT comes to cargo and says, "I want to stay in your department", there will be an immediate defensiveness.

"Do you think we're incapable of handling minor cuts and bruises?" "Go bother someone else, none of us are hurt!" "Why? There's no one hurt here."

If an Engineer comes to cargo and says, "I want to stay in your department", there will be an immediate defensiveness.

"Do you think we break shit all the time?" "Go bother someone else, we don't need repairs!" "Why? The APC's fine."


If the EMT/Engineer is literally a cargo EMT/Engineer, one that is expected (even if not happily) to be around, they have the right. It's their job. They heal people/fix things, shoot the shit, they're a part of cargo. It's no longer "Us" and "Them", it's "Us, including our EMT/Engineer". No matter how """nice""" your EMT is, it will always be "Us" and "Them" because one character doesn't change an entire culture. And I don't know if departmental EMTs/Engineers will fix that in all cases. It may lead to the same sort of resentment we already see, but in closer proximity. Which is why it has to be test merged to see what will happen, because speculation will get us nowhere further than we've already gotten.

There is no "Us" and "Them", there's departments, and the station overall. The idea that we need isolated offices and gimp'd Security Comms in order to facilitate good RP between Security [Them] and Departments [Us], perpetuates that there IS a divide. The resentment we have currently, is on the part of people, overall, distrusting one another and getting deep into the OOC nature of the game, rather than treating each character as an individual unrelated to the OOC culture and memes concerning different departments. ICly, as far as I see, and I say this with rounds clocked nearly every round- the only people that do not interact with Security, are those that purposely wall themselves inside their department's bowels, or are AFK when the patrolling officers visit their areas.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

16 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

Whether it turns out good or bad, I can definitely see some good roleplay opportunities come from it. (Urist McCargoSec has arrived "SHIT HIDE THE CONTRABAND! …. No officer everything is fine :]")

Why does this not work currently, or are you at a loss for actual new interaction possibilities between for 'Security' and 'The Departments'?- I say this given it already occurs, over general comms and in person, frequently. Between friends and between rivals. On this note- is this project actually about character interaction, or is it about player interaction? I feel like this has a lot more to do with changing things OOCly, than it does ICly.

[Conspiir]

9 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Why does this not work currently, or are you at a loss for actual new interaction possibilities between for 'Security' and 'The Departments'?- I say this given it already occurs, over general comms and in person, frequently. Between friends and between rivals. On this note- is this project actually about character interaction, or is it about player interaction? I feel like this has a lot more to do with changing things OOCly, than it does ICly.

The reason it doesn't work currently is security officers have literally no reason to enter a department. Contraband could be piled up on the table in the break room and no officer can come in unless they have a warrant because a sec officer saw it on the camera. There's no time to hide anything then, no warning, no work-arounds. They come in, confiscate it, warn/fine/arrest somebody, and leave, because that is the beginning and end of the duty. They are obligated to do nothing else. Can they do other things, sure. But they are not obligated to.

 

You have to understand how Security, specifically Security, is perceived from the outside. It isn't like an EMT, who is helping save somebody. It isn't like an engineer, who is fixing that damn vending machine (at last somebody came!) It isn't even the goddamn janitor, who will clean up that blood in the warehouse from the violent spawns of RNGesus. It's a Security Officer, come to take the fun away. That is an IC and an OOC belief. There's a reason the "sec is just for valids" joke sticks around. It isn't true, but that doesn't mean it isn't believed.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Conspiir

[AmoryBlaine]

4 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

The reason it doesn't work currently is security officers have literally no reason to enter a department. Contraband could be piled up on the table in the break room and no officer can come in unless they have a warrant because a sec officer saw it on the camera. There's no time to hide anything then, no warning, no work-arounds. They come in, confiscate it, warn/fine/arrest somebody, and leave, because that is the beginning and end of the duty. They are obligated to do nothing else. Can they do other things, sure. But they are not obligated to.

If Security see contraband, the requirement of a warrant is voided, as the officer has visual confirmation of offense. It is not attributed to anyone, and is simply confiscated. If the officer wishes, he or the detective can question the departmental staff on the situation, or leave it be as to not cause any issues. What changes here with departmental security? The officer is obligated to do what exactly, that they aren't already obligated to do?

 

Quote

You have to understand how Security, specifically Security, is perceived from the outside. It isn't like an EMT, who is helping save somebody. It isn't like an engineer, who is fixing that damn vending machine (at last somebody came!) It isn't even the goddamn janitor, who will clean up that blood in the warehouse from the violent spawns of RNGesus. It's a Security Officer, come to take the fun away. That is an IC and an OOC belief. There's a reason the "sec is just for valids" joke sticks around. It isn't true, but that doesn't mean it isn't believed. 

This line of thinking is toxic in nature. Security is not there to "Take the fun away", it's there to prevent regulation infractions and serve as a means to balance out any possible threats to the station. Security officers do not even universally enforce minor infractions. Perhaps, if you treated them as characters, rather than an outside force that has the intent of ruining your fun, you would find they are less inclined to take said fun away. Believe it or not, it's a two way street- Security have fun too, and when your reaction to them is defensiveness you are the one creating the stigma around their being there. How come it falls on 'Them' to make amends for the inaction of 'The Departments' to recognize that Security is as much a department as the rest of them, with just another role to fill? What does valids have to do with non-antag minor infractions?

Quote

There's a reason the "sec is just for valids" joke sticks around. It isn't true, but that doesn't mean it isn't believed. 

Like I said. Toxic line of thinking.

 

[Conspiir]

8 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

If Security see contraband, the requirement of a warrant is voided, as the officer has visual confirmation of offense. It is not attributed to anyone, and is simply confiscated. If the officer wishes, he or the detective can question the departmental staff on the situation, or leave it be as to not cause any issues. What changes here with departmental security? The officer is obligated to do what exactly, that they aren't already obligated to do?

 

This line of thinking is toxic in nature. Security is not there to "Take the fun away", it's there to prevent regulation infractions and serve as a means to balance out any possible threats to the station. Security officers do not even universally enforce minor infractions. Perhaps, if you treated them as characters, rather than an outside force that has the intent of ruining your fun, you would find they are less inclined to take said fun away. Believe it or not, it's a two way street- Security have fun too, and when your reaction to them is defensiveness you are the one creating the stigma around their being there. How come it falls on 'Them' to make amends for the inaction of 'The Departments' to recognize that Security is as much a department as the rest of them, with just another role to fill? What does valids have to do with non-antag minor infractions?

Like I said. Toxic line of thinking.

 

 

Yes. You have now reached exactly why experimenting with Department Security is perfectly acceptable. It's the Proximity Principle. If Security turns out to be actually good people doing their job, then close contact breeds mutual understanding. "That guy is one of us, no matter the way he looks or what he does as a job, even if I don't necessarily like the way he looks or what he does as a job." I don't know regulations or how all things are handled. Guaranteed, others don't as well. Shit just happens, and it's just "Well, that's sec, they're probably doing something". If security is always chasing an antag somewhere, patrolling the hallways, or stopping by the department for half a second to say "Anything wrong?" or even not say anything at all and turn around and walk away, there's never close contact between them and average crew so the toxicity perpetuates. Medical doesn't face that same problem because they're seen as "helping". You don't get mad at your healer unless you don't want heals.

 

What do you do personally to remedy that is irrelevant; you're largely outnumbered. More people are exposed to Not-You Officers than they are exposed to You Officers. More people are exposed to High-Stress, Stop-The-Antag Security than Laid-Back, It's-Extended Security. Like I said, one person can't change a culture. I honestly do hope that departmental security will see some sort of shift in understanding between crew and security. Everyone has a different job, everyone has a different place. Departmental security gives you a name and face instead of a uniform. The security officer doesn't show up, take the stuff, leave. They show up, take the stuff, and stay. And that, I hope, will make a huge difference.

[AmoryBlaine]

Where do you think, currently, Officers are going? They're not leaving the station, they typically aren't even in their own department unless it's in the lobby. If you want proximity to Officers- who already go out of their way to move between every section of the station, while most everyone else sits in their departments- you need to make some iniative yourself. There's constantly close contact with 'Them' and 'The Crew'- with the exception of people who choose not to interact with them.

You want more interaction with Security Officers that isn't high-stress stuff? Talk to them when they visit your lobby to talk to you. Talk to them in the halls when they're patrolling. Talk to them at the bar, or kitchen.

 

What does having a Department Officer do to alleviate this hate that you seem to see and have yourself? As stated prior in this thread, this is not even an attempt at limiting the Officer to your department. He is still expected to patrol the station. You do not have ownership of him, nor does he have an inherent obligation to protect your department. He goes where the issues are, and returns- briefly- when it is handled, before starting patrols again.

3 hours ago, Conspiir said:

Departmental security gives you a name and face instead of a uniform.

No. It gives you an earpiece and less cohesion, while expecting you to do the same things you were doing before. If you think that such a flimsy and poorly considered project as this will somehow reshape Security into all happy-sunshine people, you are mistaken. The shitters will remain the shitters. With less cohesion, there's less to be done. At the same time, competent RPers are going to remain the same, but gimp'd. I don't feel I should be gimp'd just because you're incapable of taking the same amount of iniative I take to interact with characters not in my immediate proximity at round start, nor do I think that gimp'ing the station to allow antagonists more freedom than they currently have benefits an HRP environment when most the gimmicks and RP  for antagonists revolves around poorly thought out hostage situations and focusing on being 'the bad guy', rather than a source of conflict and story. Not to mention the neae flawless merc and raider rounds where the only means of stopping them from raiding the vault and leaving the station in a record 45 minutes- with a total of three of those minutes actually recognized by the station as an intruding force-  setting us into extended. Unless, as we can all recall,  they decide it makes more sense for them to reboard the station and try to fight security in order to generate interaction.

 

There are issues currently, and this project handles none of them. It simply opens the door for the current issues and exacerbates them. Security is no longer a cohesive unit, they're now stuck in different departments with isolated offices, still expected to patrol, not expected to to have close proximity interactions with their fellow Officers, expected to interact primarily with whatever department they're stuck with- but not really, because you're still expected to patrol.

This whole project doesn't even exacerbates the issues by much. It's more so just a massive annoyance, with the only real big change being more opportunities for station militias- something uncommented on by anyone thus far, but quite clearly an intent.

[Skull132]

This conversation is leaning into stupid speculation in an attempt to smear and undermine. That's where the line gets drawn. If you've said your point, then disengage.

The intent of the server leadership has been said a few pages back, and it remains unchanged. Just give us a bit of time to figure out the exact specifics of how we want to experiment with this, and we'll see what comes of it.

[StationCrab]

So it was tested for a round on April 1st. The biggest issue I saw was that the departmental officers aren't on the same radio frequency as other sec officers. 

It was total chaos. Which could arguably be a positive thing? It did make things interesting from an outsider perspective, but I'm not sure how much the sec players enjoyed it.

Edited April 5, 2019 by StationCrab