Re-add Einstein Engines (TM) as a Contractor Faction

[NewOriginalSchwann]

Einstein Engines is an important megacorporation in lore, especially if one consults the timeline. They have had a hand in the creation of faster than light travel (including the warp gate project (Timeline of Humanity, 2355-2390)), modern shells (through their subsidiary Terraneus Diagnostics, also the creators of SUNSHINE - the most advanced AI in the Sol Alliance and a major producer of AI systems used by the Solarian Navy), and are the first trans-stellar corporation (and one of the oldest still in operation). The timeline even uses NT's overcoming of Einstein Engines as a major accomplishment (Timeline of Humanity, 2425). Furthermore, Einstein Engines is one of the "big three" megacorps in the Sol Alliance alongside Zeng-Hu and Hephaestus (Timeline of Humanity, 2400) before its restructuring in the first half of the 26th century.
So, why can't we play as them? I've generally heard two reasons:
1). They're a subsidiary of Hephaestus Industries.
- Nowhere I looked on the wiki has it stated Einstein Engines is a subsidiary of Hephaestus, though this may be an updating issue. Considering the clout Einstein Engines seems to have in the lore, this is unlikely. If I am wrong, please inform me of how illiterate I am.
2). They don't have enough jobs available to be a real contractor.
- This is a more fair criticism, but I can still counter it. Einstein Engines, through its subsidiaries, focuses primarily on engines (shockingly), engineering, and robotics. This means that the contractor branch can include station engineers, scientists, roboticists, and the quartermaster and cargo technicians(since somebody has to manage intake, right?). You could make arguments for more jobs, such as security officers, but it is my belief that security has enough contractors as is. This would make it a smaller contractor faction, but still one that is worth having.

"But all that stuff is in the lore and who has time to read that?? How can a company named after a long-dead German be relevant now???"
Good question! My primary argument here revolves around the recent activities of the SLF and rogue shells: Terraneus Diagnostics contractors are meant to be experts in robotics and A.I. research, and are part of the greater Einstein Engines megacorp. Despite the bad blood between NT and EE, would it not make sense to bring them aboard due to recent developments? If anybody could detect a rogue shell, certainly it would be a Terraneus researcher that has worked with IPCs and AI technology for decades. The fact that a TD-NT contract stipulates the rest of EE comes along is an unfortunate, but necessary, part of corporate security. Furthermore, Einstein Engines has a very large branch in Mendell City that is described as an "immense skyscraper" by the wiki, and is the largest non-Solarian branch of the corporation, meaning that their employees are already in the system and available for contract work.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

What makes them distinct from Hephaestus in gameplay?

[NewOriginalSchwann]

5 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

What makes them distinct from Hephaestus in gameplay?

Good question. Going off of contractor and wiki descriptions I would say that Hephaestus is more focused upon logistics and mass manufacturing, while Einstein Engines is more focused upon research (such as shells) and advanced engineering projects (such as the warp gates), many of which are also theoretical (for example, the experiments of Taipei Engineering Industrial).

In terms of gameplay Einstein Engines would be more concentrated in the fields of engineering and science, whereas I mostly see Hephaestus as a mining/engineering contractor. While a H.I. contractor might focus upon getting the best results with what they have, an E.E. contractor might opt to push the envelope (and sneak out of the Aurora with their research documents) to get better results. As such, I believe they would have different occupations than Hephaestus: you wouldn't hire E.E. contractors to break rocks and move boxes like their Hephaestus counterparts, you would hire them due to their ability to perform advanced research and willingness to experiment with new things.

Another gameplay distinction is that Einstein has two subsidiary companies, Taipei Engineering Industrial and Terraneus Diagnostics, while Hephaestus simply has divisions. While a Hephaestus contractor is the same regardless of what division they are from, an E.E. contractor from T.E.I. would have an entirely different specialization than one from T.D.

For my final gameplay distinction, I would like to state the E.E. contractors would definitely behave differently than H.I. contractors. While H.I. cargo/logistics specialists are described as "[...] your customer service level is subpar to be sure," these contractors represent Einstein Engines. They represent the first of the modern interstellar corporations in Aurora's lore, with a tradition stretching back hundreds of years. They're proud of that, very professional, and always high quality - E.E. contractors should view themselves as a cut above the rest in terms of engineering and AI technology, as they've been doing it longer and (in their minds) better than any other corporation. Don't forget that NanoTrasen has a bit of a rivalry with E.E. - this could be a fantastic chance to show NanoTrasen what Einstein is capable of, and grab a few of their secrets along the way.

[KingOfThePing]

32 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

What makes them distinct from Hephaestus in gameplay?

What makes Hepheastus scientist distinct from Necro scientist?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, KingOfThePing said:

What makes Hepheastus scientist distinct from Necro scientist?

Hephestus is focused on engineering flavor. It is the engineering focus.

Necro is focused on the scientists.  Theyre very distinct.

Ee is focused on engineering. We already have an engineering focused contractor. It is redundant to have another. It would have it just to have it.

The character motivations for contractors can be given to hephestus as well. Being sneaky is not really a major distinction.

I dont see the need to revert the merger of EE and Heph to make a stronger, more cohesive subtext.

 

Thats my opinion.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[KingOfThePing]

No, no, I meant what actual ingame difference does it make? I thought that's what you were asking about?

[NewOriginalSchwann]

17 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Hephestus is focused on engineering flavor. It is the engineering focus.

Necro is focused on the scientists.  Theyre very distinct.

Ee is focused on engineering. We already have an engineering focused contractor. It is redundant to have another. It would have it just to have it.

The character motivations for contractors can be given to hephestus as well. Being sneaky is not really a major distinction.

I dont see the need to revert the merger of EE and Heph to make a stronger, more cohesive subtext.

 

Thats my opinion.

Your opinion is valuable, but I think you've missed my point somewhat.

Hephaestus Industries is primarily focused on engineering flavor, so I cannot dispute that. The logistics side should also be considered, as it's a key part of the megacorp.

Necropolis is focused on science and security, while Hephaestus is focused on engineering and hitting rocks/shoving boxes. Why do they even need scientists?

Overlap has not been an issue so far: we have three contractors that do security (N.I., EPMC, Idris), three that do research (Zeng-Hu, N.I., Hephaestus), two that do logistics/cargo (Idris, Hephaestus), and two that do medical (Zeng-Hu, EPMC (although only paramedic, so this is a bit of a stretch). Why is adding in more flavor for engineering a bad thing? The assets are already in, and it will add more diversity to characters as E.E. contractors have a reason to compete with their Hephaestus counterparts.

Being sneaky is not a major point, it's a side note: quite literally all of the contractor factions that do research are described as sneaky and willing to steal NT technology to make more money (examples: Hephaestus senior engineer, Hephaestus cargo specialist, Necropolis bio-technician, Zeng-Hu senior medical doctor, and Zeng-Hu geneticist - the only contractors that aren't attempting to actively commit corporate espionage are the EPMCs (who want to arrest more people to get their bonus) and Idris (who want to encourage NT employees to make deals with Idris)). The major distinction for Einstein Engines is that they're highly professional experts in their fields who brag about bringing the best they can.

I'm not sure what your final statement is attempting to say, apologies. If you wish for me to address the merge, I can do so upon request.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I guess thats fair.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

4 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

I guess thats fair.

Does this mean you will support re-adding the corporation as a contractor?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Personally i would still like to do more with less but i also cant really have a better argument for why not to re-add it because its design philosophy. If it's a popular corp then sure.

[BoryaTheSlayer]

God please, yes. I prefer EE over Heph, seriously. It's a much better aesthetic in my opinion and the lore behind EE makes it quite interesting to play.

[Carver]

Agreed on EE providing a better aesthetic. It'd also give them a more tangible IC presence, something that Hephaestus had before even without contractors due to the two models of IPC.

[Nantei]

Honestly, I can't think of a compelling reason it was removed to start with. If we only needed 'one' of each 'type' of corporation, then there would really be no need for Eridani either.

[Skull132]

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

If we only needed 'one' of each 'type' of corporation, then there would really be no need for Eridani either.

This was basically it.

Eridani and Necro are currently the last two corporations that seemingly share a domain. But @ParadoxSpace insists that Necro are more than just security. This dispute will be resolved in due time, I imagine.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

57 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

If we only needed 'one' of each 'type' of corporation, then there would really be no need for Eridani either.

Youre absolutely right.

Necro is redundant. It exists by the inertia of its established popularity. Which is fine i guess. EE never had a dedicated following.

[Skull132]

Ideally:tm:, we would have 1 (primary) mega-corporation per department.

Heph gets engineering.
Idris gets service.
Zeng-Hu gets medical.
Eridani gets security.
NT gets science.

Note that this means that the primary staffing for said departments should be from that corporation. Minor overlap into other departments is fine, for flavour and conflict reasons.

There's a few interesting issues in this division. First is the issue of cargo. On its own, I would argue that cargo is not large enough to have its own domain controller. But cargo is also a bit odd perhaps to roll under Idris, since the aesthetics would clash a bit too much there, IMO. Which is roughly why Heph also manifests itself in cargo.

Regarding Necro, as myself and Jackboot already said, the reason why it exists is because of inertia. It currently falls outside of the above-noted divisions, by trying to encompass both security, genetics, and perhaps something more, I forget.

Also, when it came to deciding between EE and Heph, there was one unfortunate fact to be admitted. Heph had been more developed than EE by that point. The positronic brains and IPCs were primarily a Heph design, for example. EE, while yes, having served as a major "antagonist" force way back when, wasn't really expanded upon recently. So when a tally of the potential losses was made, one decision was clearly superior to the other.

There is also the point of NT. As it currently stands, there's no plans to push this specific layout for the current station. But there are plans brewing for the future. The general idea being that the division of lands in this manner would make the future setting(s) more dynamic, both in terms of the departmental power structures and general gameplay. Imagine what rev could be with this setup, for example.

[Wigglesworth Jones]

I personally like the EE "aesthetic" more than the Hephaestus one, and as said above, I think it'd help give them more of a presence IC. I'd be interested in playing a character from one of the first megacorps. Additionally, I don't think there's anything too wrong with some overlap between the contractor factions.

[Scheveningen]

I don't really wanna say "give necro the boot please" because @Doc's got a great established contractor sec officer character from necropolis. I still agree with the assessment that Necropolis is redundant, though it may be worth it to give Necropolis additional expansions somehow.

[Brutishcrab51]

I play a Necropolis character too. Oscar Easter. I would stop playing if it was removed because I would think it was unfair and biased.

[Skull132]

2 hours ago, Wigglesworth Jones said:

I personally like the EE "aesthetic" more than the Hephaestus one, and as said above, I think it'd help give them more of a presence IC. I'd be interested in playing a character from one of the first megacorps. Additionally, I don't think there's anything too wrong with some overlap between the contractor factions.

The problem is gameplay and story design. Having a department be primarily one faction permits you to generalize and to target them more easily. You can, for example, give all faction entities motivation to rebel. And thus you get the most of a department up in arms. If you have two large entities in one space, that becomes a more difficult task.

[Nantei]

So... we're not allowing EE because it might hurt a rev gimmick? Really?

I almost never see that work as a rev gimmick, and contractors are not supposed to be the bulk of a department, so I find this line very confusing.

[Skull132]

I do not mean to be rude. But understand that you skipped the general thesis in favour of focusing on a singular example. Generally it's meant to work the other way around.

18 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

Having a department be primarily one faction permits you to generalize and to target them more easily.

This is the core thesis. This thesis can be expanded in many directions. The rev item was just an example of it, one which came to mind the fastest and perhaps served to best illustrate what I meant. Other examples include giving each department a unique and visibly distinct aesthetic; creating interdepartmental rivalry/giving it more ground where it already exists; making the station landscape more political and dynamic by giving each faction their own goals (both over and covert). Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera.

It is effectively a tool for future use. And it's not even implemented yet.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Skull132
visible has a visibly rivalrous rivalry with rivarly.

[Nantei]

I mean, I get that, but I still don't quite understand how this is practically meant to work. Unless you are saying you will make a rather drastic change to the core intent of contractors to be a minority among the crew. Why would I ever target Haeph when I can just target the department itself? There's more Engineers than there are Haeph contractors, so it makes more sense to just try and annoy the entire department rather than one or two contractors.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

Hi! I originally made this post, so I am contractually obliged to respond to it.

When it comes to contractor overlap, I don't see it as a problem. In fact, it's a really good thing - it allows for more player expression and creativity. Honestly, some of the best interactions I've had on Aurora have been between contractors: Necropolis and EPMC officers bantering with one another over who is the better security company, for an example. An Idris quartermaster getting mad at her Hephaestus subordinates due to poor customer service, for another. Or, for a final example, contractors from different corporations debating what is the most important thing to research first in science. It creates interactions that we would be deprived of if it was just "NT and [DEPARTMENT SPECIFIC CONTRACTOR]" in every branch of the Aurora. Adding more corporate contractors, or expanding the ones we have, will create more of these good interactions: imagine, for example, the rivalries that could emerge between Einstein and Hephaestus engineers if Einstein Engines was added as a contractor faction.

You mention you want to create intra-departmental rivalries, but these already exist between contractors within departments, as I have detailed above.

Quote

 [Einstein Engines] wasn't really expanded upon recently.

Hello, I have taken the liberty to write actual contractor blurbs for Einstein Engines since they, it seems, need lore.

 

Einstein Engines Senior Engine Specialist:

As an employee of Einstein Engines you represent a tradition stretching back centuries and spanning hundreds of systems. YOU are the elite of megacorporations, and you act like it: you are unfailingly professional, highly dedicated to your job, very well motivated (and paid), and the best at what you do. You can operate any engine, from a generator to a warp drive, and your counterparts really should defer to you. Einstein Engines grows and prospers thanks to people like you, and your counterparts in research. However do keep in mind that, if you manage to get data on the supermatter engine, a bonus is in store for you - and maybe even a promotion!

 

Einstein Engines Telescientist:
As a researcher for Einstein Engines you represent, with pride, a tradition stretching back to the interstellar origins of humanity. Your predecessors helped make humanity what it is today: a power on a galactic scale . While the glory days of warp gates may be past, and the corporation has radically restructured itself, you still hold your head high: you are dedicated, unfailingly professional, extremely well motivated (and paid), and the best at what you do. You are the vanguard of Einstein Engines’ experimental telescience division, and a key factor in engine research - your telescience experiments may very well be the key to future warp drive research, and breakthroughs for the corporation. But always remember that NanoTrasen shouldn't get the full extent of your research, lest Einstein become involved in another legal dispute. And if some NT research should manage to find its way through the Odin's security in your bag? Well, such work certainly deserves a bonus - don't you think so?

[Skull132]

5 hours ago, Nantei said:

I mean, I get that, but I still don't quite understand how this is practically meant to work. Unless you are saying you will make a rather drastic change to the core intent of contractors to be a minority among the crew. Why would I ever target Haeph when I can just target the department itself? There's more Engineers than there are Haeph contractors, so it makes more sense to just try and annoy the entire department rather than one or two contractors.

What it seems like you missed was that, whatever the new project is going to be, it will no longer have NT as the default. (NT will be religated to being just another contractor faction, with a primary focus on science.) There will be no "Engineers" other than contractors. Majority of engineers will be contractors.