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Scheveningen

Ban Request - BurgerBB

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BYOND Key: Scheveningen
Accused Players Byond Key: BurgerBB
Time of Act: January 9th to current time
Reason for Ban: Baseless OOC accusations of harassment by other community members, while in turn publicly slandering said community members. Being a dick, spamming the forums with insane amounts of negativity. Also spamming the complaints board with a ton at-face-value invalid complaints with issues that should not have been written into a complaint in the first place, but rather should've been resolved by getting over it or trying to fix the issue some other way. His way of posting in and handling his own side of complaints also pretty much matching with his typical approach to be super crass and disrespectful. Most likely repeating behavior that led to their prior ban from the community before. Lot of shitty salty commentary in OOC on the main server as well.
Evidence: The OOC accusations of harassment and a lot of unfair slander occur in this thread, with a ton of misrepresentation of the intent and faith of other players in the community. There's a lot of his tone and attitude that also indicates that he has very little intention to be respectful and courteous, quite the opposite which makes the matter worse.

The forums make combing through a specific forum user's activity extremely difficult, either that or I cannot seem to expand Burger's posts past the most recent assortment. Otherwise I would dump a large amount of evidence to attach to my claims.

I am requesting a community-wide ban to be reinstated on this individual. I have been told at least a few times now in reporting his behavior that they have been "tracking" Burger as an issue or dealing with him while a complaint is open on another staff member (as he seems to tend to do) would create a conflict of interest. While that assessment is not unfounded, Burger's MO appears to be to create a lot of borderline issues that are not individually actionable by themselves, but nonetheless make a fair deal of individuals made very uncomfortable and feel unwelcome nonetheless. I am personally very tired of seeing Burger repeat the same old crap and not receive any consequences for it. I do not mean disrespect to the staff team when I say this, but I'm really disappointed - this ban request has been written as a last resort as it is clear that the staff will not handle him until this is forced onto their doorstep in plain view to deal with.

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Cnaym and I will be handling this.

 

Do not post unless it is within the rules of the subforum. If you are not sure if a post follows the rules, contact me via a forum PM, discord or the same method but to Cnaym.

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Figured out advanced search. Thanks, Abo/Arrow. I am going to cite recent examples only in this post. If anyone has specific evidence of their person-to-person interaction with Burger, either DM me with examples or you can post here. If you have more indirect examples to pass along, definitely DM me, don't risk getting a relevant post deleted and a forum warning if you're not directly involved/a witness of his poor behavior.

Dec 16th of last year. Closed on Jan 7th.

The above thread is complaining about IC engineering behavior in which two characters simply behaved in a suboptimal or silly fashion that more seasoned engineering characters tend to avoid. Not rulebreaking behavior, but then the OP of the complaint decides to push the goalposts to find another reason to crucify the players behind the characters. Note the specific tone taken by Burger, it's not an understanding/courteous one.

Dec 20th of last year. Closed on Jan 7th.

Burger and UM get into a knife-fight because of a difference in opinion over what is reasonable escalation. Despite the validity Burger may or may not have had in this complaint, the manner in which he posed his arguments and points were anything but courteous and understanding. Let me also point out in some of his posts, he writes out gigantic floods of text that absolutely nobody wants to read. It is the opposite of concise and simple.

December 30th, closed January 7th.

More floods of text disputing a note. A fucking note.

Okay, surely this is enough, right? No, there is other recent complaints too. Figure out if you can see some familiar names.
 

 


So, what to say about this? I feel like this is the only way to easily convey this. How about a familiar Aesop's Fable? http://read.gov/aesop/043.html

What I'm seeing here is an incredibly bad faith usage of the complaint forums to, honestly whine about otherwise non-problematic issues pertaining to the overall community. We all have things that we whine about. I whine about dumb rounds I experience, but they happen and I try to get over them instead of maintaining silly grudges over a single video game experience. To Burger themselves, I am sure there is a difference of perspective, but virtually all I can see is this behavior of "crying wolf" and then Burger expecting the admins to come to their rescue after the nine millionth invalid complaint with the most mundane circumstances is opened.

This is an obvious abuse of the more serious sections of the forums, their function is intended to help solve issues, not fill the backlog with infinite amounts of stuff that the admins become slowly less motivated to deal with in general. I am willing to bet that Burger has no fucking idea what the admins have to put up with. I will not speak for them either, but what affects the admins' ability to perceive issues and address them affects the community that is trying to behave in good faith and have their issues dealt with with a modicum of decency and respect given to others.

And I am seeing very little in return from Burger. Intolerant attitudes literally cannot be tolerated, or it creates this negativity spam/feedback loop as we've seen so far. I don't care what negative behavior Burger does or does not recognize in themselves, he fucking blew it countless times already and he is yet to get anything for this array of crap that everyone has to put up with.

Edited by Scheveningen

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Guest BoxWulf
19 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

The above thread is complaining about IC engineering behavior in which two characters simply behaved in a suboptimal or silly fashion that more seasoned engineering characters tend to avoid. Not rulebreaking behavior, but then the OP of the complaint decides to push the goalposts to find another reason to crucify the players behind the characters. Note the specific tone taken by Burger, it's not an understanding/courteous one.

As the victim of that complaint from Burger, I can attest that he wanted OOC punishment for being new to a job and not performing up to par as seasoned engineering players would. Since then, I’ve actively avoided playing engineering while they were on as I felt my every action would be under a microscope. I felt bullied from this player complaint and I’m glad someone finally pushed this through because no one needs to feel inadequate or punished for not being the master of a department the third time they play it. 
 

Even when trying to explain myself and what had happened, his first sentence is: “I don’t hate you?” Well, I mean, I would hope you wouldn’t because I don’t even know you and you tried to publicly crucify me over not being a veteran of a department.

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He has also still been complaining about gimmicks in ooc, which is just. Not polite. 

He has also still been using abusive language, including calling women cunts. 
 

He has been enough of a problem in terms of his attitude and how he talks to people that I beliiieeeve he has a recent discord ban?
 

Admins have logs and evidence for all of this, it’s been documented. 

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Hello. I am the creator of the original ban request which got Burger banned from discord. Valid referrals can be found here and here. It comes as no surprise that the verdict made in the Ban Appeal was a promise of improvement in behaviour, which naturally wasn't achieved, leading to the discord ban, and now this Ban Request.

Now, for my part of the evidence gathering. I recently had a sour experience with Burger in the Xenobiology is Broken thread, in which Burger spoke for the developer team as if he had authority, while the team would very much enjoy to disassociate from him. Key quotes are: "and the fact that science mains are some of the most entitled players out of any department" and "This is coming from a guy who has spoken to developers at the state of Aurora and someone who was a developer at the time when I proposed several science changes, only to get shut down because a vocal minority of science players wanted science to be intentionally boring and tedious so normies wouldn't play it." When I enquired about it. In an isolated incident, I can absolutely see a disgruntled developer lashing out like this, but it appears this minor "under the skin" vitriol is but a mere hallmark of the BurgerBB experience.

Along with the constant peppering of the words, "Unironically, Like, Bad Meme, Absolute State of [Server]", Burger manages to make every experience as negative as humanly possible. While I have no evidence of such, his "criticisms" of antagonist players post-round isn't too savory either. In short, Burger still has the attitude problem that plagued his tenure on the server pre-banning.

I don't see someone that isn't toxic saying the following:

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Hello. There is a lot to unpack here.

There was no slandering taking place with Jackboot. I have never mentioned jackboot in any of the OPs and only brought them up when they brought themselves up. When they brought themselves up, they started posting private logs that were blatantly out of context and slandering a conversation so I decided to post logs from the same chat that way. I genuinely think that he is playing a game here because countless times I have clarified that anything "creepy" was referring to what his character was doing and not what Jackboot was doing. Please actually look at this situation before making judgement. Find the instance where I brought them up in the OP because I haven't. Here are the countless times that I clarified myself.

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Countless times I had to clarify to Jackboot that I did not believe that he was OOC sexist, a creep, or anything at all. I just thought his characters were creepy and sexist to an uncomfortable level and I wanted him to please tone it down. There is absolutely no slander here. I have countlessly clarified privately and publicly that I do not think that Jackboot is a creep or a sexist or absolutely anything. Most of his deputies were actually the one to expand on some of the strange sexist/creepy practices but I have never mentioned that before because I did not want to slander anyone and that is besides the point.

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"Spamming the forums with negativity." is ridiculous. I was told to make staff complaints. About 90% of my staff complaints were told to be done by staff. The only instance where I was negative on the forums was when I was given a 24 hour ban for doing so, the first punishment I've received on the forums in over a year which was when I made the joke about AMR users having a small penis. The ban itself actually wouldn't have applied either, because the person who gave the previous warning forgot to set an expire time. It would've been super fucking easy staff complaint material; only banned because of a staff mistake, but I decided not to start any more shit publicly and did not make a staff complaint.

 Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with appealing notes or warnings. Notes or warnings leads to bans. There have been plenty of times that notes and warnings have lead to bans before. Actually, a minor warning that I wanted to appeal, but didn't because I didn't want to, lead to a permaban.

As for some of these complaints, I'm actually pretty pissed off about how you're representing them. 

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The above thread is complaining about IC engineering behavior in which two characters simply behaved in a suboptimal or silly fashion that more seasoned engineering characters tend to avoid. Not rulebreaking behavior, but then the OP of the complaint decides to push the goalposts to find another reason to crucify the players behind the characters. Note the specific tone taken by Burger, it's not an understanding/courteous one.

I was complaining about IC unrealistic behavior on an extended round. I mean right now there is currently a thread up about someone doing the same thing and them trying to appeal the punishment for it. This had nothing to do with qualification, and I even straight up said I didn't want their characters deleted. I thought it was rule breaking, so I made a complaint about it. I even clarified several times in the thread what the issue here is but we're ignoring that too in our synopsis.

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Burger and UM get into a knife-fight because of a difference in opinion over what is reasonable escalation. Despite the validity Burger may or may not have had in this complaint, the manner in which he posed his arguments and points were anything but courteous and understanding. Let me also point out in some of his posts, he writes out gigantic floods of text that absolutely nobody wants to read. It is the opposite of concise and simple.

You're literally complaining that I'm putting effort into my complaint. This is not okay. This is not a valid reason to get someone banned. I find it absolutely outrageous that you're also ignoring how hostile they were in the complaint and think that me responding in a direct matter is bad. I did not use any insults in the complaint. I did not insult them. I only talked about their points. This is roughly the tone that I had in the complaint.

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I was very upset that the player in question was disregarding the player behind the screen. They were being very hostile and weren't being very courteous either when they made a player complaint about me, but I'm not complaining about that because I understand why they would be upset, which is why I ignored their emotions and just focused on the substance.

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More floods of text disputing a note. A fucking note.

Okay, surely this is enough, right? No, there is other recent complaints too. Figure out if you can see some familiar names.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with appealing a note. I was told to make a staff complaint to appeal complaints. In the end, the note was reworded properly and everyone went their separate ways in a very chill fashion.

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More to come. I'm posting this in case the editor accidentally deletes it.

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What I'm seeing here is an incredibly bad faith usage of the complaint forums to, honestly whine about otherwise non-problematic issues pertaining to the overall community. We all have things that we whine about. I whine about dumb rounds I experience, but they happen and I try to get over them instead of maintaining silly grudges over a single video game experience. To Burger themselves, I am sure there is a difference of perspective, but virtually all I can see is this behavior of "crying wolf" and then Burger expecting the admins to come to their rescue after the nine millionth invalid complaint with the most mundane circumstances is opened.

If we're talking about faith, I don't think this thread was made with it.

I have said this before. Nearly all the complaints I have made were suggested by staff. I'm pretty sure @sonicgotnuked, who handled the MALF incident, can attest to me acting out a little when they suggested that I make a player complaint. Because do you want to know something? I fucking despise making complaints. I fucking do. I fucking hate posting on the forums but it the amount of hatred I have for making a complaint outweighs the amount of hatred I would have for players and staff constantly saying "Well, why didn't you make a complaint?" whenever I bring up serious issues that have happened.

Skull has also told me to make complaints before but I never actually did it. Alb has also told me to make complaints before but I never actually did it. Garn has also told me to make complaints that I never made. I remember this very topic being brought up before about how I'm a terrible person for making complaints, but I am literally told to make these complaints but most of the time I don't listen and just move on.

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This is an obvious abuse of the more serious sections of the forums, their function is intended to help solve issues, not fill the backlog with infinite amounts of stuff that the admins become slowly less motivated to deal with in general. I am willing to bet that Burger has no fucking idea what the admins have to put up with. I will not speak for them either, but what affects the admins' ability to perceive issues and address them affects the community that is trying to behave in good faith and have their issues dealt with with a modicum of decency and respect given to others.

Like honestly your assumption just makes me want to fucking die. Like fuck sakes I'm actually royally pissed off right now because not only is this a shitty thing to say, it's a full on assumption, and honestly I think this entire ban request is made to get me riled up like last time because none of this is what a human being should say to another human being. It's bad for me to assume too, but you need to read what you wrote here because this isn't good.

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And I am seeing very little in return from Burger. Intolerant attitudes literally cannot be tolerated, or it creates this negativity spam/feedback loop as we've seen so far. I don't care what negative behavior Burger does or does not recognize in themselves, he fucking blew it countless times already and he is yet to get anything for this array of crap that everyone has to put up with.

I recognize that I can be blunt, courase, and extremely opinionated. I recognize that my attitude can be a problem, but I don't think it applies for 75% of what has been said in this thread, which I'll get to eventually. 

 

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6 hours ago, Resilynn said:

He has also still been complaining about gimmicks in ooc, which is just. Not polite. 

He has also still been using abusive language, including calling women cunts. 
 

He has been enough of a problem in terms of his attitude and how he talks to people that I beliiieeeve he has a recent discord ban?
 

Admins have logs and evidence for all of this, it’s been documented. 

Show proof of all your claims, please. I know that I haven't been complaining about gimmicks in 2020 because I literally set that as a New Years Resolution and instead opted to play on other servers including Fulpstation and Paradise Station.

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12 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

I have said this before. Nearly all the complaints I have made were suggested by staff. I'm pretty sure @sonicgotnuked, who handled the MALF incident, can attest to me acting out a little when they suggested that I make a player complaint.

I'm just going to post some context.

 

There was no staff online at the time to handle the malf incident as I was heavily involved. That's why I told Burgerbb to make a complaint. I don't remember much else on the conversation. 

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5 hours ago, geeves said:

Hello. I am the creator of the original ban request which got Burger banned from discord. Valid referrals can be found here and here. It comes as no surprise that the verdict made in the Ban Appeal was a promise of improvement in behaviour, which naturally wasn't achieved, leading to the discord ban, and now this Ban Request.

Now, for my part of the evidence gathering. I recently had a sour experience with Burger in the Xenobiology is Broken thread, in which Burger spoke for the developer team as if he had authority, while the team would very much enjoy to disassociate from him. Key quotes are: "and the fact that science mains are some of the most entitled players out of any department" and "This is coming from a guy who has spoken to developers at the state of Aurora and someone who was a developer at the time when I proposed several science changes, only to get shut down because a vocal minority of science players wanted science to be intentionally boring and tedious so normies wouldn't play it." When I enquired about it. In an isolated incident, I can absolutely see a disgruntled developer lashing out like this, but it appears this minor "under the skin" vitriol is but a mere hallmark of the BurgerBB experience.

Along with the constant peppering of the words, "Unironically, Like, Bad Meme, Absolute State of [Server]", Burger manages to make every experience as negative as humanly possible. While I have no evidence of such, his "criticisms" of antagonist players post-round isn't too savory either. In short, Burger still has the attitude problem that plagued his tenure on the server pre-banning.

I don't see someone that isn't toxic saying the following:

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My reply for this post got deleted when checking a reply to this thread, so I apologize if this is brief.

The post in the xenobiology thread was an explanation that I regret posting because it applied a sweeping statement to all science mains and rather not a few science mains. What I should've said is that science PRs are very high risk, but low reward, considering that the code itself is quite ancient and some of the users there aren't very keen on changing science because of a handful of users that have elitism with research points. At the time when I was developer, the science discord (?) was very toxic towards changes, but it seems that the views have died down upon further investigation with the departure of some very toxic science main players that I and some other ex-devs and ex-contributors had the displeasure of dealing with whenever we wanted to improve science. But yes, it's a very harsh truth that science additions are very high risk and very low reward. I regret explaining that in a very poor way and you're right to call it out.

As for my choice of words, most of them are bad habbit or my attempt to lighten the situation. "Unironically, Like" fit into bad habit, while all of them are meant to lighten the seriousness of what I'm saying. For example, I used "Absolute State" in my post describing how a 40 year old wanted to erp an unwilling me, a 23 year old, on the Aurorstation server because of shitty unathi values.

As for the toxicity witchhunt, I grew up in a community that had witchhunts on a monthly basis. While I wasn't the target of witchhunts, others were and that made me uneasy because whenever a mob tramples something, the facts don't matter anymore and people start to go at eachother's throats. It's literally mob mentality. While removing toxicity from the server is generally a good goal, intentionally trying to seek out toxic individuals and finding reasons for them to get banned, especially as a group, usually ends very poorly for the community and usually ends in excessive shitflinging or false bans. I honestly think that this thread is one of them considering that the entire OP of this thread is filled with some pretty abhorrent reasons to eject someone from the community ,as well as some posts that either provide claims without proof, or somehow turning me having a concern about there being toxicity witch hunts means that I must be a toxic person.

 

 

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8 hours ago, BoxWulf said:

As the victim of that complaint from Burger, I can attest that he wanted OOC punishment for being new to a job and not performing up to par as seasoned engineering players would. Since then, I’ve actively avoided playing engineering while they were on as I felt my every action would be under a microscope. I felt bullied from this player complaint and I’m glad someone finally pushed this through because no one needs to feel inadequate or punished for not being the master of a department the third time they play it. 
 

Even when trying to explain myself and what had happened, his first sentence is: “I don’t hate you?” Well, I mean, I would hope you wouldn’t because I don’t even know you and you tried to publicly crucify me over not being a veteran of a department.

I have explained to you several times that I did not want OOC punishment for being new to a job. I don't know how to make this any more clear. My issue with your complaint is that you engaged and wasted the time of your fellow players by not being communicative at all. It's all in the thread and I strongly suggest that you please listen to the words that I'm saying here. I told you then, and I'm telling you now, that the reason why I mentioned you in the complaint is because you weren't being communicative at all and did some pretty questionable things that seems very unrealistic for someone to do.

 

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Guest BoxWulf
2 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

I have explained to you several times that I did not want OOC punishment for being new to a job. I don't know how to make this any more clear. My issue with your complaint is that you engaged and wasted the time of your fellow players by not being communicative at all. It's all in the thread and I strongly suggest that you please listen to the words that I'm saying here. I told you then, and I'm telling you now, that the reason why I mentioned you in the complaint is because you weren't being communicative at all and did some pretty questionable things that seems very unrealistic for someone to do.

 

You were proven wrong about me not being communicative and calling for help when I needed it by the admin who reviewed the logs.

If you read YOUR OWN WORDS in the complaint:

And then being told by myself AND an administrator:

Did you even read the resolution to the player complaint or did you just use me as collateral damage in your ongoing war against Marlon?

Either way, I don't feel comfortable around you and still will not play engineering or any other department your characters are part of because of the way you put people on blast so easily, avidly, and seemingly without care or notice. 

 

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Just now, BoxWulf said:

You were proven wrong about me not being communicative and calling for help when I needed it by the admin who reviewed the logs.

If you read YOUR OWN WORDS in the complaint:

And then being told by myself AND an administrator:

Did you even read the resolution to the player complaint or did you just use me as collateral damage in your ongoing war against Marlon?

Either way, I don't feel comfortable around you and still will not play engineering or any other department your characters are part of because of the way you put people on blast so easily, avidly, and seemingly without care or notice. 

 

I want you to please understand the following:

Understand that I did not know you were new or were learning a new job. You had a unathi whitelist and I assumed that since you were an atmos tech, and not an engineering apprentice, you had prior engineering experience and understood the lethality of electrical shocks.

Understand that you were acting extremely superior to me while in game and belittling my character.

Understand that considerable time and effort was expended trying to rescue you that didn't need to be spent.

Understand that I was not ordering the admins to ban you. The most they could really give you here is a note if you don't have any prior offensives.

 

Given all this, I do not think it is reasonable to hold this large of a grudge to the point where you are uncomfortable playing engineering and that you want me gone from the server. And no, I didn't want OOC punishment for you being new to a job. 

 

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Guest BoxWulf
1 minute ago, BurgerBB said:

I want you to please understand the following:

Understand that I did not know you were new or were learning a new job. You had a unathi whitelist and I assumed that since you were an atmos tech, and not an engineering apprentice, you had prior engineering experience and understood the lethality of electrical shocks.

Understand that you were acting extremely superior to me while in game and belittling my character.

Understand that considerable time and effort was expended trying to rescue you that didn't need to be spent.

Understand that I was not ordering the admins to ban you. The most they could really give you here is a note if you don't have any prior offensives.

 

Given all this, I do not think it is reasonable to hold this large of a grudge to the point where you are uncomfortable playing engineering and that you want me gone from the server. And no, I didn't want OOC punishment for you being new to a job. 

 

Telling me to understand any of these points aside from the time and effort to organize the rescue are all disingenuous and patronizing.

I am holding a grudge against you because of yet another thing you've just said that I was waiting until the IRs to be resolved, but since you went ahead and mentioned it OOCly...

My character, Rzuo Iszak, had NEVER belittled or suggested ANY kind of superiority over Bar Shaleez. In fact, he merely sat at the table in engineering while Bar Shaleez and Ruul bickered. He did nothing and the logs would show nothing

I had assumed, again, that you were using my character in your IR against Ruul as collateral because I knew OOCLY that my character had not even interacted with Bar Shaleez further than thanking her for coming to his aid on the surface level. I did ask someone if characters can make bullshit IRs, which that is, and was told yes but you cannot lie during interviews to get someone punished for something they didn't do. That's the only reason I've never contested your bullshit IR, again, bullshit IR, you didn't even get a chance to know my character or do anything with them. You immediately associated them with Marlon's and lumped them together and just assumed that my character is a machismo, woman-belittler. 

You twist and distort facts to suit your own agenda, I would LOVE for someone to comb the logs of that round and find ONE SCENARIO where my character said or had done anything admonishing against Bar Shaleez. In fact, IN FACT, he respected her for coming to aid him when he needed it and the lengths that she went to get the crew mobilized to do such. 

THIS IS WHY I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AROUND YOU because this is what you do, innocent be damned, you do not care and will publicly admonish anyone that you feel doesn't fit your RP-standards, rule-breaking or not.

 

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Guest BoxWulf
19 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Given all this, I do not think it is reasonable to hold this large of a grudge to the point where you are uncomfortable playing engineering and that you want me gone from the server. And no, I didn't want OOC punishment for you being new to a job. 

I'm unsure if I want you completely gone from the server because, to be honest, that is a bit extreme for my specific issue with you. However, if the administrators feel it proper and you are removed, the fact that you've never once attempted to reach out to me to apologize for your baseless accusations and filing for administrative action against me would be no love lost.

Edited by BoxWulf

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I'm especially new to the server, so I'll keep what I have to say concise.

All of my interactions (or should I clarify and say 'observations' as that may be more accurate) regarding Burger have been almost duly negative to a perfect degree, especially when it regards the end of the round. It seems to be guarantee-ably in reference to what went wrong during the round, what could've been done better by other players in their eyes, or any miscellaneous rare commentary that is not appropriate for the setting of the server, one example being talking about masturbating in OOC. The criticism and complaining that take place post-game hardly contribute in a positive way to the end of round discussion or the community as a whole. Should this criticism be constructive, it would be of no problem. Constructive and friendly criticism is what helps a community and people grow. However, time and time again, I see that just the opposite is posited from Burger as they assault how other people play the game and their perceived mistakes.

As a new player to the server and SS13 in general, this is the kind of toxic behavior I fear the most. If and when I step into a new role and want to explore a department, see what it's like, learn the mechanics behind it, and ultimately decide if it's something I want to continue learning about, I will already be rather anxious about how my performance will step up to bat. The last thing I wish to see, especially if I mess up in a major way, is getting a guilt trip about it after the round due to my lack of expertise. I heard many complaints about Burger's behavior from people I've met, but I wanted to keep a clean slate to see if perhaps the point of view was being eschewed. Unfortunately, they appear to be right, and by their accounts, I am quite surprised this toxic behavior hasn't been put to trial, acknowledged, or even resulted in a ban yet.

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42 minutes ago, BoxWulf said:

Telling me to understand any of these points aside from the time and effort to organize the rescue are all disingenuous and patronizing.

I am holding a grudge against you because of yet another thing you've just said that I was waiting until the IRs to be resolved, but since you went ahead and mentioned it OOCly...

My character, Rzuo Iszak, had NEVER belittled or suggested ANY kind of superiority over Bar Shaleez. In fact, he merely sat at the table in engineering while Bar Shaleez and Ruul bickered. He did nothing and the logs would show nothing

I had assumed, again, that you were using my character in your IR against Ruul as collateral because I knew OOCLY that my character had not even interacted with Bar Shaleez further than thanking her for coming to his aid on the surface level. I did ask someone if characters can make bullshit IRs, which that is, and was told yes but you cannot lie during interviews to get someone punished for something they didn't do. That's the only reason I've never contested your bullshit IR, again, bullshit IR, you didn't even get a chance to know my character or do anything with them. You immediately associated them with Marlon's and lumped them together and just assumed that my character is a machismo, woman-belittler. 

You twist and distort facts to suit your own agenda, I would LOVE for someone to comb the logs of that round and find ONE SCENARIO where my character said or had done anything admonishing against Bar Shaleez. In fact, IN FACT, he respected her for coming to aid him when he needed it and the lengths that she went to get the crew mobilized to do such. 

THIS IS WHY I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AROUND YOU because this is what you do, innocent be damned, you do not care and will publicly admonish anyone that you feel doesn't fit your RP-standards, rule-breaking or not.

 

Right. I have apologized countless times for coming off of abrasive for you. I cannot know if you're upset if you do not tell me that you're upset, but even when I take a stab in the dark, I have told you countless times what my opinion of you is and yet you seem to ignore it. You seem to think that the IR is OOC. It isn't. It's IC. Bar Shaleez submitted the IR against your character, not me. Please understand this because OOC in IC is against the rules.

I'm going to be a dick here because I need you to understand this. I don't hate you. I don't know who you are. You were never in my mind as someone who I hate. I literally forgot you existed. I can't even remember your character's name even if my life depended on it. If you literally played engineering, I wouldn't recognize you. The only Unathi's name I know that currently plays has the name Issana. That is because I played with them a long time ago as another character and they were one of my only Unathi friends at the time.

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Right. It's incredibly hard to defend myself without examples given. The closest thing to complaining that I remember was me complaining about a ninja suicide implant explosion and making it absolutely fucking clear that I had no issue with security or the ninja that round, just the feature.

Even if I did, and I'm pretty sure I didn't, complaining about the round at the end isn't an issue. Garnacus said this last time people kept bringing it up.

And if I did complain about the round in a way that violated the rules, and I didn't, I would be bwoinked. People would ahelp it. And I find it absolutely fucking ridiculous that people keep bringing up the masturbation comments without any context whatsoever so I honestly think that it's a stupid gotcha at this point.

Here is what happened.

Someone told me to go masturbate in OOC in order to calm down.

As a joke, I told them that I already did.

People ahelped me saying that I did and completely ignored the comment of the person who told me to rub one out.

@Cnaym bwoinked and noted me over it, telling me not to say things like that. Given that I have 0 history of being weird, I believe they did not think that it was worth a ban.

OOC talks about dog dick, eating ass, yiffing, musk, thicc lizard waifus, on a daily basis. Staff sometimes participates in it and no one complains because everyone knows they're joking. While the comment is bad, and I apologized for it at the time, and after the fact, I honestly think that the concern over it isn't in earnest.

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1 hour ago, Haydizzle said:

I'm especially new to the server, so I'll keep what I have to say concise.

All of my interactions (or should I clarify and say 'observations' as that may be more accurate) regarding Burger have been almost duly negative to a perfect degree, especially when it regards the end of the round. It seems to be guarantee-ably in reference to what went wrong during the round, what could've been done better by other players in their eyes, or any miscellaneous rare commentary that is not appropriate for the setting of the server, one example being talking about masturbating in OOC. The criticism and complaining that take place post-game hardly contribute in a positive way to the end of round discussion or the community as a whole. Should this criticism be constructive, it would be of no problem. Constructive and friendly criticism is what helps a community and people grow. However, time and time again, I see that just the opposite is posited from Burger as they assault how other people play the game and their perceived mistakes.

As a new player to the server and SS13 in general, this is the kind of toxic behavior I fear the most. If and when I step into a new role and want to explore a department, see what it's like, learn the mechanics behind it, and ultimately decide if it's something I want to continue learning about, I will already be rather anxious about how my performance will step up to bat. The last thing I wish to see, especially if I mess up in a major way, is getting a guilt trip about it after the round due to my lack of expertise. I heard many complaints about Burger's behavior from people I've met, but I wanted to keep a clean slate to see if perhaps the point of view was being eschewed. Unfortunately, they appear to be right, and by their accounts, I am quite surprised this toxic behavior hasn't been put to trial, acknowledged, or even resulted in a ban yet.

Most of this post is based on hearsay then. Which incidents have you witnessed me giving someone a hard time? Have I ever personally given you a hard time for being new? Have you seen this behavior?

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16 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Right. I have apologized countless times for coming off of abrasive for you. I cannot know if you're upset if you do not tell me that you're upset, but even when I take a stab in the dark, I have told you countless times what my opinion of you is and yet you seem to ignore it. You seem to think that the IR is OOC. It isn't. It's IC. Bar Shaleez submitted the IR against your character, not me. Please understand this because OOC in IC is against the rules.

I'm going to be a dick here because I need you to understand this. I don't hate you. I don't know who you are. You were never in my mind as someone who I hate. I literally forgot you existed. I can't even remember your character's name even if my life depended on it. If you literally played engineering, I wouldn't recognize you. The only Unathi's name I know that currently plays has the name Issana. That is because I played with them a long time ago as another character and they were one of my only Unathi friends at the time.

 

I don't think the IR is OOC, if you read what I write instead writing to retaliate, you would understand that. YOU seem to have the two mixed up because I hadn't mentioned your bullshit IR OOCly until you mentioned it as being factual when it's not.

1 hour ago, BurgerBB said:

Understand that you were acting extremely superior to me while in game and belittling my character.

I don't want an apology for you being abrasive, I want an apology from you lying about me and my actions to get another player in trouble as a result of your own personal vendetta that the ENTIRE community is well aware of with your incessant posting all over the fucking place.

"I don't know who you are" learn who people are before you make complaints against them that admonish their character and who they are, that's such blatant entitlement. 

I can't even believe you wrote that in good conscience, imagine filing complaints about people and just being like "Wait, who? LOL." 

I look forward to see what administrative action you incur this time, Burger. 

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Thank you for the prompt reply.

The inference to the masturbation comment wasn’t intended to be a drag through the mud, just a clarification on what I personally saw as not being appropriate for the chat. I’m sure there was enough flak given already for that singular incident; the intent was not to lynchpin you for one sticking point though.

To answer the next: no, you have not "bullied" me personally—I am trying to reflect on what I’ve seen and give testimony to that I suppose. We have barely interacted directly IC or OOC, as my experiences with Shaleez are limited (I’m unsure of who else you play besides them).

It’s difficult to site many examples, but I will aim to recall as much as I can for the benefit of evidence and reflection. I think a big event that sticks to most if not all of my points was after a ninja (?) round where you and Freshrefreshments got some bites at each other over the antag gimmick for the round. The ‘quarreling’ wasn’t suited for continuing in OOC, the point of contention that resulted in the bickering did not aim to give advice or constructively criticize Fresh, and commenting on not knowing what was going on in your own opinion.

I will again apologize for not having too much on hand at this late hour, but I’ll try to compile more feedback to post later when I’m able and if anything else comes to mind.

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1 minute ago, Haydizzle said:

Thank you for the prompt reply.

The inference to the masturbation comment wasn’t intended to be a drag through the mud, just a clarification on what I personally saw as not being appropriate for the chat. I’m sure there was enough flak given already for that singular incident; the intent was not to lynchpin you for one sticking point though.

To answer the next: no, you have not "bullied" me personally—I am trying to reflect on what I’ve seen and give testimony to that I suppose. We have barely interacted directly IC or OOC, as my experiences with Shaleez are limited (I’m unsure of who else you play besides them).

It’s difficult to site many examples, but I will aim to recall as much as I can for the benefit of evidence and reflection. I think a big event that sticks to most if not all of my points was after a ninja (?) round where you and Freshrefreshments got some bites at each other over the antag gimmick for the round. The ‘quarreling’ wasn’t suited for continuing in OOC, the point of contention that resulted in the bickering did not aim to give advice or constructively criticize Fresh, and commenting on not knowing what was going on in your own opinion.

I will again apologize for not having too much on hand at this late hour, but I’ll try to compile more feedback to post later when I’m able and if anything else comes to mind.

Ah, yes I remember.

Yes, my issue with their play was that they were refusing to interact with security and that as ninjas, they were grouping up frequently together to interacting with one or two people. While I did praise them for interacting with people other than security, but the issue is that they were intentionally avoiding security for the round despite security behaving reasonably. As AI, I would wait 5 minutes after spotting the antagonist, then report their location to security. I was intentionally giving the antagonists breathing room as AI because I didn't want to ruin their gimmick, but every time security would show up, they would almost always instantly flee and I could tell via comms and my previous experiences as security, that they were getting exceptionally irritated. I thought unfair to security, so I voiced these concerns the best I could to them but they didn't want to have it. I did not know who played the ninja at the time, but If I knew it was Freshrefreshments, I wouldn't have said anything because I know they don't like my unsolicited criticism.

I don't recall insulting Freshrefreshments. They were annoyed by my criticisms, even though by most people's standards it was constructive. I recall them constantly mocking me and throwing personal attacks my way, and an admin who was involved said that me giving criticism wasn't against the rules and it wasn't really against the the rules for freshrefreshments to behave that way. Since then I have not voiced any concerns in OOC and just decided to fill OOC with stupid shitposts like "how was my ninja" every time it was extended (not because ninja is boring or that it's a shot at ninja players, it's just that I was a really good ninja because stealth and all) or recently, "How was our merc gimmick where we pretended to be crew" as a reference to me discovering a few days ago that mercs can buy a fake arrivals computer announcement where they can join as crew with a record and a manifest.

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I will note that. As I said before, thank you for the timely replies, and I will try to get other instances posted to not sound as baseless.

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