Renamed Medical Chems

[Chada1]

This is a feedback thread to discuss this PR:
https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/9400

Currently the names are:

Spoiler

Escitalopram = Minaphobin

Methylphenidate = Corophenidate

Paracetamol = Perconol

Peroxitine = Removed

Duloxetine = Emoxanyl

Oxycodone = Oxycomorphine

Tramadol = Mortaphenyl

Imidazoline = Oculine

Ondansetron = Asinodryl

Antihistamine = Cetahydramine

Sertraline = Parvosil

Fluvoxamine = Neurostabin

Venlafaxine = Orastabin

Risperidone = Neurapan

Olanzapine = Nerospectan

Mannitol = Cataleptinol

Calomel = Fluvectionem

Ipecac = Verunol Syrup

Chloral Hydrate = Polysomnine

As of now, the OP has been updated with what looks like a near final list unless there are objections/more ideas on what to add/remove.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Chada1
Updated the list.

[Doxxmedearly]

I'd like to remind everyone to be civil here. The PR itself was already getting heated with comments.

[VVipEdout]

Snippy PR comments aside, the underlying idea is plain mistaken. Real world chemicals let us have a base to roleplay pharmacology from instead of having to play a PharmD and just shrug whenever you're discussing your profession. Made up chems can come later with lore to support them; a whole charter of chemicals being made up leaves us in the water. Sanitizing names out of "ethical concerns" is a losing exercise in a game such as  SS13 where horrible harm in very much real world ways is a hourly occurrence, and our target audience isn't Timmy browsing through mom's cabinet to take the funny healy pills from the videogame. And even if it were, what's oxycordine going to distance from oxycodone, to his understanding?

But, as has been said in the PR, it's a change that makes gameplay more painful, less intuitive and a relearning for literally anyone who uses the chemistry system. It has also been asked for by nobody besides out of context quotes up in the pull request, and solves no mechanical or roleplay issues. Worse, it creates more of them. If LRP servers are going to do a better job at believability and seriousness than us as far as chemical names go, we're making a mistake.

[Chada1]

3 hours ago, VVipEdout said:

Snippy PR comments aside, the underlying idea is plain mistaken. Real world chemicals let us have a base to roleplay pharmacology from instead of having to play a PharmD and just shrug whenever you're discussing your profession. Made up chems can come later with lore to support them; a whole charter of chemicals being made up leaves us in the water. Sanitizing names out of "ethical concerns" is a losing exercise in a game such as  SS13 where horrible harm in very much real world ways is a hourly occurrence, and our target audience isn't Timmy browsing through mom's cabinet to take the funny healy pills from the videogame. And even if it were, what's oxycordine going to distance from oxycodone, to his understanding?

This is a double-edged sword. Basing it on real world chems makes it to where you need to know real world medicine to be able to roleplay well, or completely make up things as you go, and then a lot of people have this issue where they will criticise a character who's player is Trying to do that.

This would mean you can do that and have a better base to argue it from. There would be different people with different interpretations of how medicine should be used and it wouldn't be 'It's X, so it's only used like C.' Ontop of that we can't really add more to them, they're as they are, and as they are right now is extremely lackluster. It's not going to leave us in the water, we're 500 years in the future, we should have more advanced Chems than what we have IRL rn, it might even be more immersive once it's more developed.

3 hours ago, VVipEdout said:

But, as has been said in the PR, it's a change that makes gameplay more painful, less intuitive and a relearning for literally anyone who uses the chemistry system. It has also been asked for by nobody besides out of context quotes up in the pull request, and solves no mechanical or roleplay issues. Worse, it creates more of them. If LRP servers are going to do a better job at believability and seriousness than us as far as chemical names go, we're making a mistake.

^ As I said up there, it may even be more immersive, a lot of people have raised that it completely takes them out of the game that we use the same drugs we have in the real world, except 400 years in the future, when a lot of what we have could (and should) be a lot more advanced, and others completely cycled out. I think the lore even diverges around the 1950's? So a lot of modern medicine may not even exist under the same name.

This could work, I think it can be improved a ton if we can just get better names that are less silly and more fit what the drugs do.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Chada1

[UnknownMurder]

I'll be short and to the point. I like the name changes. When I compare the drugs that we have and look to the changes we have made, even through history, parts of the name will change over time or a drug is introduced from a different planet. Other species might add a series of letters to the official drug name. Like Tajaran may be responsible for influencing the name change of this drug Oxycodone = Oxycordine by adding "R" to it. If any, it sounds more foreign to me. I'm sure the PR heated comments are just unwillingly to change and refusing to be open-minded. 

[MattAtlas]

I'd rather see the name changes go in than not, because I'm dead tired of real world parallels in medical and the headache that they've brought me, both when I was porting brainmed and now. If we're worried about a basis this can be fixed relatively easily by adding lore descriptions to chemicals and making them show up when you examine a bottle. That'd be my preferred approach simply because it's more about adding than changing, but I'd be fine either.

As for "alienating new players", this is an excuse that's often brought up instead of "I don't like this" because it means nothing, to be honest. New players aren't actual monkeys and most of them will get used to the changes in a day or two after a few ahelps or asking in OOC.

6 hours ago, VVipEdout said:

But, as has been said in the PR, it's a change that makes gameplay more painful, less intuitive and a relearning for literally anyone who uses the chemistry system.

Complete exaggeration. Most chemists either use VSC or the wiki, both of which would be updated before merging the PR anyway, at which point you can just ctrl+f what you need.

6 hours ago, VVipEdout said:

It has also been asked for by nobody

This, also, means nothing, because not only is it untrue, it also doesn't matter. PRs can be made by whoever for whatever reason.

 

[Connorjg1]

The main issue I would see with this is my inability to google the drugs themselves for a small synopsis on there real world counterpart so I can gauge a tiny bit about how they work irl lol. If they had descriptions that told a bit about what they did when you examined em this'd be better but I can't imagine it's a huge issue either way

[Chada1]

Just now, Connorjg1 said:

The main issue I would see with this is my inability to google the drugs themselves for a small synopsis on there real world counterpart so I can gauge a tiny bit about how they work irl lol. If they had descriptions that told a bit about what they did when you examined em this'd be better but I can't imagine it's a huge issue either way

I can do that if you'd like.

[Connorjg1]

Just now, Chada1 said:

I can do that if you'd like.

That would honestly be really cool and helpful for everyone involved as well just adding some neat flavour.

[furrycactus]

I did more thinking and ultimately I think changing the names is probably a good idea. That being said, I do think some of the names are a little goofy, so we should maybe brainstorm some new ones. I'll do some thinking myself in the meanwhile.

[Chada1]

Just now, furrycactus said:

I did more thinking and ultimately I think changing the names is probably a good idea. That being said, I do think some of the names are a little goofy, so we should maybe brainstorm some new ones. I'll do some thinking myself in the meanwhile.

Please do. ? I'll do the busywork to replace them.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Chada1

[Skull132]

Accepting the tag in from Matt, lemme begin by addressing a non-argument.

6 hours ago, VVipEdout said:

It has also been asked for by nobody besides out of context quotes up in the pull request, and solves no mechanical or roleplay issues.

False! Every single time the development team has a worthless slug match with a bunch of medical players who berate us about the nuances of real life drugs, we wish that we had not used or perpetuated real life drug names.

6 hours ago, VVipEdout said:

If LRP servers are going to do a better job at believability and seriousness than us as far as chemical names go, we're making a mistake.

Also false! Whether or not we use real life drug names, or some made up shit, has no direct impact on believability or seriousness. Believability is established by the names being well created in the context of the game. Seriousness is an arbitrary notion and not really impacted unless we call a drug something patently hilarious.

In my opinion, this change is a good change. Because it removes the inclination for people who think they know shit (or actually know shit) about medicine IRL to see real life drugs in their ingame couterparts. It removes the expectation of the medicine to act as it would in reality. And this is a good thing: because the purpose of this game is NOT to be a simulation of reality. Concessions are made in every mechanic to make the game out to be actually playable, which often comes at the cost of "realism". The amount of times people have argued with the dev team over worthless nuances of IRL drugs, only to have said argument remain unaddressed because, frankly, the expectations levied were unreasonable from a gameplay development perspective, is astounding. And frankly, if we can pleasantly avoid this, then that is one heck of a reason for me to press the "Approve" button on this PR.

Secondly, due to the fact that concessions have to be made for the game to actually be playable without having completed 10 years of med-school (or being a wikiwarrior), tying in-game drug names to IRL drug names may actually be misleading. Specially if the use-cases of these drugs do not overlap. Removing this connection will allow the development team and contributors greater freedom in morphing the medical system into something that is both fun and usable. And this does not have to come at the cost of complexity, as some may fear. Brain-med itself was a huge step up in terms of complexity and depth, and though the mechanics are based on reality, they are still gamified. So in this case, we can indeed have our cake and eat it too. There is no reasonable argument to the contrary without invoking the slippery slope fallacy.

 

I also have two analogies to illustrate my point. I'm an extreme noob when it comes to the medical field, the only drugs I really know by (TRADE) name are common painkillers. I played a lot of medical in my first year on Aurora, and my lack of knowledge of real life drug names did not inhibit my gameplay in the slightest. The only people who would be mildly inconvenienced with this change would be people who actually know a lot of IRL drug names and now have to re-learn some shit. But fortunately, those people are in the minority.

Speaking of re-learning shit. There's another batch of mechanics I am very familiar with professionally and academically: integrated circuit design and logic. Lemme tell ya, the ingame representation of that is a gross simplification and an outright lie of what it is based on. But this is fine, because if I (or someone else) was to actually make the mechanics in question more realistic, then you would legitimately need a year of studying to figure out how to send a fucking string message from one chip to another. And that is not the point of this game.

Both of these examples are to say that while we appreciate the knowledge of real-life professionals (and wannabe wikiwarriors), they are not our main audience, and we cannot cater to them exclusively. This change gives us freedom to make the game more reasonable to play, while extinguishing a whole bunch of worthless and shitty arguments.

[VisVirific]

Most of the current list of names proposed feel like you've put them through a dyslexia simulator. Most them don't feel like they have any logic to them besides just changing characters and hoping it'll stick, which causes them to be jarring, harder to remember, goofy and confusing.

My recommendation would be to keep it thematically coherent, since then it'd be a bit easier/more intuitive to know what the chemicals are used for.

As for the actual suggestion for possible renaming, mine are as follows:

General Meds

• Imidazoline > Oculine (Latin for plural form for eyes [Oculi] + ne)
• Mannitol > Neuranol (Focuses on Neurons as part of its old Brain Trauma med usage)
• Ondansetron > (Ondansitrine is actually really good)
• Diphenhydramine > Diphelemine? Sternimine (Sternutation + mine)? Straight up changing into Antihistamine? (Diphenhydramine is the actual chemical for the Antihistamine pills. So yeah, need to change THIS rather than the Antihistamine labeling itself - plus, it'd be easier to just change it into Antihistamine as the Chem Wiki page calls for Antihistamine in recipes rather than Diphenhydramine. It'd be similar how the Cough Syrup chem is... literally called Cough Syrup)
• Calomel > Dialynel (As it basically behaves as a chemical alternative for Dialysis and name is derived from that and better than Mercury Salts)
• Ipecac > Emetinol (We don't even have actual Ipecac plants for this to be called Ipecac)

 

Painkillers

• Paracetamol > Paraphenol (Basing this from its own naming logic which is from its chemical compound, this time para-acetylaminophenol for mere convenience)
• Tramadol > Tramatonin? Tramarine? Tramul (Brand name Ultram, but shuffling Ul to the last part of the word)?
• Oxycodone > Oxycorphine (Oxycordone + Morphine)? Oxycoid (Oxycordone + Opioid)? (Oxycordine is also pretty good)

 

Psych Meds
I have absolutely no idea how to mess with this section yet, and I'll need more time to think of proper renames for them.

[Doxxmedearly]

As stated by Skull and Matt, moving away from real-world med names is a positive change overall IMO. I'm pretty sick of

Quote

the development team has a worthless slug match with a bunch of medical players who berate us about the nuances of real life drugs

this. This PR alone is an example of this given the amount of comments on git (many of which should not have been there in the first place- git is for code comments. It's not a rallying point for people to say they don't like it).

That said, I'm with Vis. The proposed names in the original PR feel a bit silly and not separate enough from the real-world versions. I like their proposed ideas much more. Changing the name to something based on existing root words or to something that gives a hint as to what it treats is a great idea.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Doxxmedearly

[Carver]

If we're going to BS chem names, can we not have them sound like the same chems being spoken by a drunk? At least with Tricordrazine, Polytrinic Acid and the other Star Trek/sci-fi names they're both significantly different - yet follow conventional naming methods.

I'd truly be down for this if the new names didn't just sound like someone took the old names, smudged them a little and made them look like random shit. Change demands effort.

[Peppermint]

The proposed ones sound like someone had a stroke halfway through saying it. Not a fan.

 

Not hugely fussed about changing the current ones, though imo it is a little pointless and just change for change's sake. First year med students will continue to be first year med students. Having to relearn the medicine names won't fix this, but if people feel passionately that the current ones are bad, I guess 'why not' at the end of the day? 

[Chada1]

Yup this is a work in progress, It's not going in until I can get this sorted out and I'm in the process of renaming nearly every one of them. Also Vis your ideas are great and I'll draw from them. Imadazoline will likely become Oculine.

ALSO PEOPLE PLEASE post ideas and not just that. I get it, that's being fixed. But we need spitballing!

We need ideas for new chem names.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Chada1

[Chada1]

As of this moment I need new, better names for; 

(These lists are out of date, go to the OP)

Edited July 20, 2020 by Chada1

[Doxxmedearly]

Here are my suggestions with rationale. I still encourage people to come up with better, but there might be some good ones in this mess.

Also, you have Dulox on there twice. 

Spoiler

Escitalopram - Minaphobin (Min - small, phob - fear. Helps with small phobias)
Paroxetine - Theraphobin (Ther from therm... since the wiki says it helps stop overheating)
Duloxetine - Concusil (Helps with concussions)
Sertraline - Honestly. We could probably just remove it. It feels like it's the same as escitalopram
Fluvoxamine - Neurostabin (Stabilizes the mind). 
Paroxetine - Honestly. We could probably just remove it. It feels like it's the same as escitalopram
Venlafaxine - Orastabin (Stabilizes stuttering, so Ora for Oral)
Risperidone  - Neurapan (Pan for all. it's effective at treating most things)
Olanzapine - Nerospectan (Nero for neuro, spect to imply wide spectrum)

 

[Chada1]

Oh no, you're right I do.
I'm like constantly copypasta'ing lists and scrambling them up to split the new/old/new old, so it gets confusing.

Also thank you.

Also, removal of redundant chems in theme is absolutely an option.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Chada1

[Chada1]

Alright so here's our list so far. And it's looking good enough to me. Opinions?

(This list is out of date, go to the OP)

Edited July 20, 2020 by Chada1

[Chada1]

I went ahead and committed all of the new names to the PR ?
But they're v. easy to change so please keep suggesting.

[VisVirific]

I'd really like if the Psych meds could be reworked into more flavor, but this seems to be a topic of discussion for another PR if possible. And seeing that we're distancing from the IRL counterparts and focusing more on the mechanics that they currently have, it seems only logical to suggest for a removal of one or two (despite my own bias to not want to remove them).

Although the Paroxetine was listed twice and only the removal suggestion seems to be in the current list.

As for my suggestions for Sertraline (if it's not removed, at least), here it is:

• Sertaline > Parvosil (Parvos - Small, short. Basically emphasizing that it's cheaper/lasts shorter than Escitalopram/Minaphobin)

 

Other than that I think I'm pretty satisfied with the current list, although I am receptive if other folks have better suggestions/naming systems for them.

[Chada1]

It can be kept.as Parvosil. ?

[Chada1]

Alright, the OP looks like it's been updated with what's near the complete list of our new Chems unless people add more ideas or object to the new names.