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RyverStyx - Spriter Application


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Ckey/BYOND Username: RyverStyx
Discord Name: Mack#2829
Position Being Applied For: Spriter
Past Experiences/Knowledge: Spriting for bullies, IPC, and mainly Skrell.
Examples of Past Work:
https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/12491
https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/11926

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/12565 (I think this is bully clothes)

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/12511

Additional Comments: (I also did some sprites for TG but I can't find them; they were chef uniforms)

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/12628 (Not merged yet)

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Hi. I have a pretty big issue with this app. 

 

That PR you linked for the additional bully clothes contains none of your work. It is all Desven's. Neither of us appreciate the fact that he was not even mentioned with that link, and it sort a feels like you are trying to steal credit here. 

 

On top of that, I have issue with how you handled the Bulwark clothes you DID do as well. You originally agreed to do a small number of Bully outfits, just the ones for job uniforms and that was it. Desven took it upon himself with me later joining to sprite most everything else, but what you ended up doing is spriting  a few clothing items, then doing next to nothing for multiple weeks after making your Skrell dev app (this is when Desven started spriting everything else, by the way), and then you came back and told us that you refused to do what you agreed to do until we paid you because you "Have actual responsibilities now" despite agreeing to help with the clothes prior, effectively holding the project hostage for money. 

Here is some proof of the above. To reiterate, Ryver agreed to do the sprites Desven is asking him to help with far prior to this. 

image.thumb.png.22a95da010a2d0ec3e10bb5ffb5818c2.png

Originally, I had not planned on saying anything, but this blatant theft of credit is really the final straw for me, and I cannot in good conscience condone this application. -1 

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1 hour ago, Roostercat said:

Hi. I have a pretty big issue with this app. 

 

That PR you linked for the additional bully clothes contains none of your work. It is all Desven's. Neither of us appreciate the fact that he was not even mentioned with that link, and it sort a feels like you are trying to steal credit here. 

 

On top of that, I have issue with how you handled the Bulwark clothes you DID do as well. You originally agreed to do a small number of Bully outfits, just the ones for job uniforms and that was it. Desven took it upon himself with me later joining to sprite most everything else, but what you ended up doing is spriting  a few clothing items, then doing next to nothing for multiple weeks after making your Skrell dev app (this is when Desven started spriting everything else, by the way), and then you came back and told us that you refused to do what you agreed to do until we paid you because you "Have actual responsibilities now" despite agreeing to help with the clothes prior, effectively holding the project hostage for money. 

Here is some proof of the above. To reiterate, Ryver agreed to do the sprites Desven is asking him to help with far prior to this. 

image.thumb.png.22a95da010a2d0ec3e10bb5ffb5818c2.png

Originally, I had not planned on saying anything, but this blatant theft of credit is really the final straw for me, and I cannot in good conscience condone this application. -1 

I couldn't find the original PR because it was purposefully hidden (since it wasn't supposed to be revealed until the arc dropped). I did not intend to take Desven's credit so for that I do apologize. However, you fail to mention all the sprites I did do (for free) that I will show below. I also dropped out of spriting additional bully clothes because the project was incredibly mismanaged and you and Desven would argue on what needed done while also having me go back and change multiple "finished" sprites. You could not agree what needed done for multiple days and had no general plan in place besides "make sprites". I found that incredibly annoying and so did the other spriter you were working with (which is why Desven ended up finishing the sprites). Also things change - I was appointed Skrell dev so I couldn't sprite an entire clothing line for a new race; I told you that multiple times. I didn't realize I would get the position when I started making you sprites (a couple weeks before I was accepted). I suddenly had a whole SPECIES I was responsible for. So yes, after that I did request money for any additional sprites at the measly price of $2 per sprite because I had a lot on my plate.

Edit: Something else to note is at the point of the screenshot you linked the other spriter already completed every single uniform that was needed but you decided not to go with their iteration. By this point both of us were fed up with the project and decided to step away from it.
Also this is the proper PR https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/12503

image.thumb.png.5ec8e69e4ee07c31760dba44af91cadf.png

image.thumb.png.4224d34a8a216b6175d1b2bdfb016f2f.png

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You are still not being truthful. 

3 hours ago, RyverStyx said:

I couldn't find the original PR because it was purposefully hidden (since it wasn't supposed to be revealed until the arc dropped).

 

This is not true, the PR was never hidden, and you did in fact know about it, as you sent a message about when it got a Do Not Merge tag. 

image.thumb.png.7def1977a8be6d60dde222765a783bab.png

 

3 hours ago, RyverStyx said:

 However, you fail to mention all the sprites I did do (for free) that I will show below. 

image.thumb.png.5ec8e69e4ee07c31760dba44af91cadf.png

image.thumb.png.4224d34a8a216b6175d1b2bdfb016f2f.png

The reason I did not mention this is because I gave credit in the vaurca announcements on the lore discord, and I never said you didn't do anything, I said you only did some sprites, which is still true. 

 

3 hours ago, RyverStyx said:

I also dropped out of spriting additional bully clothes because the project was incredibly mismanaged and you and Desven would argue on what needed done while also having me go back and change multiple "finished" sprites.

This is ALSO untrue, as Desven can also attest to. The most amount of arguing done was over design details such as how long sleeves should be and related matters, which is perfectly normal for spriting, making it even more concerning if this is something you cannot handle whilst applying for a Spriter position. As for the organization, at the very beginning I gave you a short list of what was needed, and that was all I ever expected or needed you to do, and later on in the project once organization was brought up, Desven even made a google doc showing EXACTLY what was needed, whether or not it was done, and who did it if so . (Which again, I never asked you or the other artist to do, I merely said you could help if you so chose to.)  

image.thumb.png.5e5192cf4baaacdd39395a15cce3929b.png

image.thumb.png.7c8a7c273f355adc22248471231939f4.png

 

This is when I specifically said you both could help with more sprites if you wanted to. (The scratched out name is the other artist, who I will not involve here unless they choose to be involved). This is important because, again, I only ever asked for the short list. 

image.thumb.png.86332fae68f2e63c2f8e8c12af3f467d.png

 

3 hours ago, RyverStyx said:

I found that incredibly annoying and so did the other spriter you were working with (which is why Desven ended up finishing the sprites). 

 

This is also not true. Desven started making more sprites because he felt it would be good if the Bulwark had more than the bare minimum at release, which he did of his own volition. 

3 hours ago, RyverStyx said:

 Also things change - I was appointed Skrell dev so I couldn't sprite an entire clothing line for a new race; I told you that multiple times. I didn't realize I would get the position when I started making you sprites (a couple weeks before I was accepted). I suddenly had a whole SPECIES I was responsible for. 

You did not mention this at all prior to being accepted. You should never have agreed to help us with this if you knew full well you were going to have a bigger workload soon, and even then, dumping a pricetag on us right after you had said workload made it feel like charging us for the rest was thought of beforehand. 

 

3 hours ago, RyverStyx said:

 So yes, after that I did request money for any additional sprites at the measly price of $2 per sprite because I had a lot on my plate.
 

 

Do not talk about the price as if the "measly 2$ per sprite" is just something anyone is willing to throw in. You agreed to do the sprites, did half the work, and then demanded money for the rest, all while knowing beforehand you could have the additional workload problem. Which I still hold as horrible conduct for someone who wants to become a developer for the server.

 

3 hours ago, RyverStyx said:



Edit: Something else to note is at the point of the screenshot you linked the other spriter already completed every single uniform that was needed but you decided not to go with their iteration. By this point both of us were fed up with the project and decided to step away from it.
Also this is the proper PR https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/12503

 

 This is ALSO not true. We did not decide to not go with their iteration. I said multiple times that I was willing to, and wanted to use their sprites as an alternate version to the current ones. The fact they up and decided to do all of that work, and then out of the blue refuse to let us use any of the sprites is by no means the fault of me, Desven, or you. 

ryverproof.thumb.PNG.dae76cfaff9386c7513aa6f8d6a4ce79.PNG

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image.thumb.png.f2451fd63f364b0bd4e647f9d69a53b6.png

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Roostercat said:

This is not true, the PR was never hidden, and you did in fact know about it, as you sent a message about when it got a Do Not Merge tag. 

I accidentally used the wrong PR. I don't think that's something to rake me over the coals for. Anyone can tell that is an honest mistake.

31 minutes ago, Roostercat said:

The reason I did not mention this is because I gave credit in the vaurca announcements on the lore discord, and I never said you didn't do anything, I said you only did some sprites, which is still true. 

Again, this is what I meant to link all along...

32 minutes ago, Roostercat said:

This is ALSO untrue, as Desven can also attest to. The most amount of arguing done was over design details such as how long sleeves should be and related matters, which is perfectly normal for spriting, making it even more concerning if this is something you cannot handle whilst applying for a Spriter position. As for the organization, at the very beginning I gave you a short list of what was needed, and that was all I ever expected or needed you to do, and later on in the project once organization was brought up, Desven even made a google doc showing EXACTLY what was needed, whether or not it was done, and who did it if so . (Which again, I never asked you or the other artist to do, I merely said you could help if you so chose to.)  

-----------------In random order-----------------------------------------------

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image.thumb.png.7eb3154e92faf02c6385a319596d23e7.png

image.png.e2cf2f671297d2977137923b293e3998.png

------------------------------------These bottom two are in order-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

image.png.33dcce919264fa974ec5c83f15c38e99.png

image.thumb.png.5c402e117232fe40afc00bc933c5e8a3.png

---------------------------Today after this forum debacle--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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image.thumb.png.2e81c87848fe60ced9bad357b8da1112.pngimage.thumb.png.1b42baef981e376c3a67aefcd859cc5a.png

image.thumb.png.54a8ea6cd53f66945ec12e095d11d19f.png

As you can see Rooster is being horribly entitled and only thinking about their own project; yes I agreed to help out (and I did help them). When I had too much on my plate I offered an alternative to just straight dropping the project. At no point did Rooster consider the fact that I was a new appointee to lore dev responsible for an entire species and that I had already made sprites before I asked for money in return. They act like I held these sprites hostage for money when up to this point I handed over everything I already completed.

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3 minutes ago, RyverStyx said:

I accidentally used the wrong PR. I don't think that's something to rake me over the coals for. Anyone can tell that is an honest mistake.

Again, this is what I meant to link all along...

As you can see Rooster is being horribly entitled and only thinking about their own project; yes I agreed to help out (and I did help them). When I had too much on my plate I offered an alternative to just straight dropping the project. At no point did Rooster consider the fact that I was a new appointee to lore dev responsible for an entire species and that I had already made sprites before I asked for money in return. They act like I held these sprites hostage for money when up to this point I handed over everything I already completed.

I said multiple times ,and you can even see the min the screenshots you yourself posted, that the problem was that you agreed to help us, did half of it, knowing this entire time you were going to have a new workload, then halted the project alltogether trying to demand money from me and wasting our time. 

The new things you were doing were not on a hard time limit, were not urgent, and you still tried to charge me money for something yo ualready agreed to do. I do not consider these good qualities for someone trying to be a spriter for the server. 

Also, petty insults are not going to get you anywhere, I have not insulted you as a person this entire time, I am just stating what happened and why I believe the things I do.

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As another note, it makes very little sense to me that you would try to justify trying to force money out of me by saying you had new responsibilities as a lore developer, and then a month later, here you are applying for a Spriter position. is this new workload now totally irrelevant all of a sudden?

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2 hours ago, Roostercat said:

and then out of the blue refuse to let us use any of the sprites is by no means the fault of me, Desven, or you. 

 

I hate to peanut gallery here, but I guess I'm involved anyways. I did not refuse to let Rooster use the sprites out of the blue, I had said it was important to me that there was a level of consistency with the uniforms, and had suggested that mine be used as the rolled down version for the jumpsuits as there was some contention on what kind of style you guys wanted out of it. It seemed like Rooster agreed, and very shortly after I had finished all of the uniforms - and made note of it in the chat, multiple times. Rooster may have noticed this if he was reading the messages instead of neglecting his own project to play foxhole; which, frankly, is almost laughably amusing given the argument he is making against Ryver. Regardless, seeing as  Rooster was blatantly ignoring the progress I had given him, and I felt my voice wasn't being heard (fair, given it is his project to do with as he wishes), I withdrew. Yes -  I took the sprites with me, as once again it was important to me that there was a level of consistency, and I didn't want them used in a way I didn't agree with, but I don't think any of this is "out of the blue."

Evidence:

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.bff6b34b5ffb7995593c7a16a573cded.png


This is just one piece of the puzzle, showing how disorganized the project was as a whole - leading to the loss of Ryver from the project, treat your volunteers badly and you can't expect them to stick around. As far as I am aware, Ryver was getting fed up with the disorganization for the same reasons I was, beyond even needing to focus on skrell work, but I'll try not to speak too much for him here. I don't think its right that Rooster feels entitled to Ryvers work, and seeing Rooster throw him under the bus for what amounts to "you didn't give me free sprites" isn't a good look. I wasn't aware there was this much bad blood, given the fact we were both cordial during the whole process, even with the organizational issues.


NOW, with all that out of the way; what about the app?
Ryver is a good spriter, and when he's passionate about a project he's really good at hammering it out, that said I'm not sure if its a great idea to juggle so many responsibilities - and the posts above may or may no speak towards this. Two cents.

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Even when keeping all the what is true and what not aside, the fact alone that you volunteer to help with a project, but then decide that you want money in return to finishing it (after you are halfway through with it) is something I cannot approve at all. We all are volunteers, the admins are, the mods are (as you should know), as are coders and spriters. This does not mean that people cannot ask for something in return of their work. I also, more than once, paid a considerable amount of money, so that specific things, that were in limbo or so much work that the person in question just wanted something in return for the considerably huge amount of time in return, were worked on. But this is not the rule, nor should it be.

Imagine our coders like Geeves, Matt, Alb, GreyWolf or any other contributer would take money for each and every bugfix/PR. There would be absolutely 0 server developement. This is all ignoring the question what was written above is true or not, it's nothing I can and want comment on, since I am not involved. 

 

tl;dr I find the attitude and mindset shown by you questionable for a spriter/developer position at best, unfit for any other staff position at worst, but that's not for me to decide. Big -1 from me for this app.

Edited by KingOfThePing
Grammatical error
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I have an issue with a lot of criticism on this thread. You're all entitled to your opinion but I do not think its fair to -1 this app because he asked for money. As it seems to be written here Ryver did some amount of work for a particular project. Then asked for payment to do any additional work. He did not attempt to charge for work he already had done. I think if you have are being even the slightest bit charitable to ryverstyx you will find a number of reasons he would do this that are completely reasonable such as...

Ryverstyx underestimating the work required for the project

Ryverstyx gaining new constraints on his time thus putting the free time he does have at a premium

I do not think There is anything wrong with asking for payment for further contribution. Agreements between parties get re-negotiated all the time for perfectly legitimate reasons. I think the sprite work you have done looks good and i can easily +1 this app. 

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18 hours ago, Garnascus said:

Ryverstyx underestimating the work required for the project

Ryverstyx gaining new constraints on his time thus putting the free time he does have at a premium

These should not be reasons to put a price tag for your work halfway through it, basically holding the project in question hostage. What I gathered is that he agreed to help (which is very nice of everyone who does stuff like this) and then halfway through the project noticed that it's too much for him to work on. This is fine, but then either communicate this and request more time or give it away to someone else. 

It is not the norm to re-negotiate a deal halfway after finishing it, but I don't know if this is more common in other places in the world, it certainly isn't in Germany. This has a big "I am altering this deal, pray that I do not alter it any further" vibe to it. It is a huge difference to ask for money for doing additional work, like re-sprites or just straight up more, after the initial project is done, especially after your workload got increased through your own projects. But doing it halfway through is nothing that's defendable, in my opinion. 

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8 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

These should not be reasons to put a price tag for your work halfway through it, basically holding the project in question hostage.

Its really demeaning to rooster and his project to imply it cannot survive unless a single spriter keeps doing work. Ryver was also applying for skrell dev at the time of being accepted onto rooster's project. In his own words he was unsure if he would be accepted. Thus, when he was accepted his workload changed. Rooster claims @RyverStyx did not communicate this upon being accepted so rooster assumed they would be able to finish the project. All ryver is guilty of here is a lack of communication and from the screenshots posted here its very clear to me the entire project had a lack of communication to it. We are several orders of magnitude from what multiple people in this thread are trying to imply that ryver attempted to extort money from a free project. 

Volunteer projects by their nature are composite objects. If i had to guess Ryver joined "to contribute" and rooster accepted him "To finish it". A mismatch of expectations like this happens all of the time in this game and the issue is once again just a lack of communication. Fair criticism to levy but again not even close to trying to extort money.

You guys need to chill. 

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I don't want to derail this thread more, but I'm way more disappointed with the people that actually hold the position of spriters and ghosted us for long, after making promises of working on that. Not that I expect them to be always available, but it's really not a good look to have someone say they'll work on it, especially being on the staff team, and then giving no reply. Which is why we looked for external help.

 

Was it a bit of a mess? Yes. I would argue that most discussions were actually pretty tame and just about nitpicks, honestly what took us the longest to understand was the anatomy of the Bulwark, since it was not easy at first, but once that happened it became much easier. I understand where Rooster comes from, however. Especially since he had already spent a good dollar in the Bulwark (there were some previous PRs, months ago, building up to it). The project didn't rely all on Ryver, that is true, but do keep in mind what I said earlier about people that are officially considered spriters/developers that just kept saying yes without doing a thing. At that stage, Ryver's help was really needed.

 

I'm not really confident in my sprites, and even though Ryver did just a handful, his work helped me greatly to do a lot more. What really disappointed me is that at the end I only asked for a sprite more or two after seeing just how little work he had done in his compiled dmi. By that time I was working on so many sprites all night long even that any extra help was encouraged. I don't think $2 is egregious, but it did feel out of place when he saw us just bummed at the amount of work required on the sprites. This is what bothers me, and it would be as easy as to recognize it wasn't the time to do that.


There are things we've disagreed at, but I do think Ryver is a nice person, a good spriter and has a lot of energy too. At first I was more upset that this was, in a way, taking too much credit for a project he didn't contribute as much, but that seems not to be the case. I don't think it's something cold planned or whatever, and I know that it's easy to cover in excuses when one feels attacked, but I hope you can understand why asking for money, in that moment, wasn't ideal.

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I dont accuse anyone of trying to take advantage and trying to extort money from this project. 

Ryver is probably a good guy and I supported his applications in the past, it was just a really weird thing to do. I don't know, if I would call it a lack of communication, honestly. I laid out my opinion and everyone is, of course, free to disagree, but I stand by the fact that joining as a volunteer and then asking for compensation halfway through is just a bad thing to do. 

Edited by KingOfThePing
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To me the spriter role has always been a mark of achievement of the artistic volunteerism done for the community in its many projects. I really like Riverstyx's artwork they've showcased here. We should be careful to assume those given a "spriter" role are on-call for artwork and projects to be assigned to them. It is really a one-way street in terms of a donation of their artistic ability. If that changes of fluctuates that should be understood.

In short, take what you can get, if that changes, understand that's how art works.
Spriters, in my opinion, are a mark of good community-work artwork donors. They're "on the team" but not really in the sense they can be requested/ordered to use their artistic ability.

Just my 0.02.

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14 hours ago, Zelmana said:

Spriters, in my opinion, are a mark of good community-work artwork donors. They're "on the team" but not really in the sense they can be requested/ordered to use their artistic ability.

That statement is absolutely incorrect.

Any team member of the development team can be assigned projects by the maintainers and headdev.
They are then expected to use their abilities to complete the assigned project.
Being Part of the development team is not a “badge” that you pin to your name.
It comes with expectations and responsibilities as any other staff role.

If someone doesn’t like the idea of working with a team and being assigned projects, then being in the staff team is not for them.

That is the difference between a developer and a contributor.

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7 hours ago, Arrow768 said:

That statement is absolutely incorrect.

Any team member of the development team can be assigned projects by the maintainers and headdev.
They are then expected to use their abilities to complete the assigned project.
Being Part of the development team is not a “badge” that you pin to your name.
It comes with expectations and responsibilities as any other staff role.

If someone doesn’t like the idea of working with a team and being assigned projects, then being in the staff team is not for them.

That is the difference between a developer and a contributor.

I was not stating this as fact.

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Since all staff are volunteers I would say that my statement was accurate. I wasn't stating that people can just not do things and still remain on staff. I'm just stating that volunteerism is always a one-way street. You either pitch in your abilities or you don't. If you don't you may be asked to leave. Simple as.

Why that remark, prefaced with "my opinion" "to me" and "just my 0.02" was taken as factual despite not even disagreeing with anyone, I am not sure. I certainly don't think it deserved such a hostile remark. Either way, this is off-track of the thread topic so I won't be discussing further.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Your work on NBT uniforms is great. You not only consistently provide uniforms but you are also responsive to feedback and prompty offer adjustments. At one point i asked what the uniforms look like under accessories and you provided a full range of visual representations.

I hope you pass your trial!! Here let me help

+1!

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  • 3 months later...
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