Marlon Phoenix Deputy Loremaster Application

[Chada1]

3 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Perhaps the most severe IC example is during a canon event round where they threatened, multiple times, to field execute my character, the HoS, for disobeying an order from the Captain. Their behavior was so outrageous during that round that they were either temporarily banned or whitelist stripped, I don't recall which. Following that incident and during the subsequent IR investigation/admin actions, they made a throwaway character and harassed my character ICly during a round with it, attempting to bait me into an IC or OOC response.

As for a strictly OOC example, they once flew off at the handle at a fellow member of CCIA for "ruining" their non-canon event by making some sort of mistake during the playing of the round. Some of my memory around some of this stuff is fuzzy because it has been so long, but their behavior is pretty well documented by multiple people, and as I said in my post, given their relative lack of interaction, I do not believe it's changed.

It's okay, thank you for the examples, let's see Marlon explain this stuff to us then.

[Triogenix]

I'm not trying to get embroiled in this argument so I will keep it simple. Since your return to the server, I haven't seen you work in an official capacity as a member of the lore team, and due to myself being relatively new compared to you, I have never seen it in the past either. Therefore, I have nothing to go off of with how you might interact with today's lore and team as an official, and not a player. I would personally like to see more of you as staff in the current lore team and setting before supporting you taking a management position, and one that may put you in charge of the entirety of aurora lore. This means things like maintainer or deputy writer in my eyes, to get a sense of what you'd do. Things that happened years ago don't really interest me, so there isn't enough recent hard evidence to, in my eyes, be able to support this application in any reasonable way.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Triogenix

[Garnascus]

6 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

As for a strictly OOC example, they once flew off at the handle at a fellow member of CCIA for "ruining" their non-canon event by making some sort of mistake during the playing of the round.

Is this when Marlon boarded as an unathi diplomat? I was there for that and Marlon's character was smuggling state secrets or something which prompted an arrest/tasing from security. I recall this argument being about whether or not the incident was canon. Not that the fellow CCIA "ruined" marlon's event. 

[Chada1]

19 minutes ago, Triogenix said:

I'm not trying to get embroiled in this argument so I will keep it simple. Since your return to the server, I haven't seen you work in an official capacity as a member of the lore team, and due to myself being relatively new compared to you, I have never seen it in the past either. Therefore, I have nothing to go off of with how you might interact with today's lore and team as an official, and not a player. I would personally like to see more of you as staff in the current lore team and setting before supporting you taking a management position, and one that may put you in charge of the entirety of aurora lore. This means things like maintainer or deputy writer in my eyes, to get a sense of what you'd do. Things that happened years ago don't really interest me, so there isn't enough recent hard evidence to, in my eyes, be able to support this application in any reasonable way.

This is fair yup but please be aware that us like me and garn and others who have been here since 2013 or earlier (I'm OLD) have seen Marlon in action, so our opinion is based on our experiences and his former work because of that.

Editing to make it clear that I think your stance is very reasonable, you just don't have the same experiences to make a decision, that's super reasonable!

Edited December 22, 2021 by Chada1

[Kintsugi]

10 minutes ago, Marlon P. said:

-snip-

I was involved in this conversation. As I explained prior, I deleted my posts after the fact because having a loremaster call me an identitarian rattled me deeply. While that compromises it to a degree, I am nonetheless sure someone else involved can corroborate the fact your posts were directed at me and I was, in fact, involved.

[CampinKiller]

16 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Is this when Marlon boarded as an unathi diplomat? I was there for that and Marlon's character was smuggling state secrets or something which prompted an arrest/tasing from security. I recall this argument being about whether or not the incident was canon. Not that the fellow CCIA "ruined" marlon's event. 

I remember that one, and maybe I’m getting events mixed up, but the one I’m referring to was some sort of Tajara diplomat. I mainly remember that detail because I was a guard, and looked like a Cat Mobster.

[Marlon P.]

Ahhh! Work and school is out; slow down people! Lol

@Chada1I agree I'd like concrete examples but remember to not diminish someone's feelings about something. They are an expert on themselves and I can't really disprove that they felt a certain way with facts and logic.

 

38 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

Perhaps the most severe IC example is during a canon event round where they threatened, multiple times, to field execute my character, the HoS, for disobeying an order from the Captain. Their behavior was so outrageous during that round that they were either temporarily banned or whitelist stripped, I don't recall which. Following that incident and during the subsequent IR investigation/admin actions, they made a throwaway character and harassed my character ICly during a round with it, attempting to bait me into an IC or OOC response.

Ohhhh wow this was forever ago. I think.... This was.... When I was a unathi VIP or something... And I had been roughed up by sec and my character, a proud old unathi, got all mad about it to cover for the fact he had some mcguffin or whatever. I apologize if it seemed malicious or mean or whatever was going on with my attitude. I only get adrenaline rushes from combat, not bureaucratic processes. If I was mad at CCIA I'd just file a complaint. But I literally have no idea. Unless there's a complaint or something to jog my memory I can't recall this. But I apologize that my behavior came off as inappropriate. It may please you to know that my thinking of IC and OOC behavior has evolved - I not longer believe that there is a separation of IC and OOC, and that IC'ly people must be treated with a modicum of respect. Unless they consent to being treated like trash or something - there are people that do. My epiphany about this was in.... I think it was in 2018??? I was being rude and demanding to this IPC bartender as a bigoted Unathi and got told later that it really hurt the player's feelings. After reflecting I had my proto beliefs on "No seperation between IC and OOC" and it really cemented itself as an actual philosophy when I started researching for how to DM DnD, where this is a common refrain in DM circles: "That's what my character would do". It's a statement excusing bad behavior or a statement of ignorance on how our roleplay still affects the person behind the screen.

It's so hard for apologies to seem sincere when it's over text, and I really don't want to sound corporate about it: I am really sorry that I showed bad behavior in that incident, and in any similar situation. And I believe that the best apology is never doing whatever I have to apologize for again, and you can be confident that I'll do my best to not repeat that behavior. If I do I strongly encourage you to call me out and remind me that I made this promise. 

 

31 minutes ago, Triogenix said:

I would personally like to see more of you as staff in the current lore team and setting before supporting you taking a management position

I tried! I got rejected. The other person wasn't a lore developer either. As a Loremaster I loved hiring fish out of water. I'm both a fish out of water and a deeply experienced veteran. I'm the alpha release and season 8 DLC all in one! 😎

But I actually reject your premise I think:  I have contributed a lot. I'm cataloguing and indexing every single news article ever posted on the forum. No one else had done that for the entire year I was gone. And I've submitted about half a dozen lore canonization threads. I've also suggested several overhauls to major game systems. Being around for eight years and following developments closely I don't feel the need to fill a quota. But I'll play more if accepted.

OK I think that got everyone. 

Now that I've gone over old behavior (EDIT: At time of posting) I ask a favor that if anyone posts again to quote at least ONE plan of action I've outlined and give your thoughts on it. Dialogue and engage with all parts of my app

Edited December 22, 2021 by Marlon P.

[Marlon P.]

51 minutes ago, CampinKiller said:

I remember that one, and maybe I’m getting events mixed up, but the one I’m referring to was some sort of Tajara diplomat. I mainly remember that detail because I was a guard, and looked like a Cat Mobster.

omg then I have no idea. the only time i played a mobster was like in 2015. I think Obama was still president, so it couldn't have been too far into 2016.

Anyway my apology still stands. If it turns out it wasn't me it doesn't change anything about my philosophy regarding IC behavior.

Also again, please have all future posts quote something I said in my OP about my plan of action or criticisms.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Marlon P.

[KingOfThePing]

I will not read any personal relationship stuff between Marlon and whoever else - but I will say that I think Marlon at least "deserves" (what a stupid word in this context) to be given another chance to either work with the lore team or be a deputy loremaster (again) and work under guidance with every lore team. I am very sure that if there are issues the lore team can voice them in a reasonable timeframe to the appropiate people. 

I didnt think much of Marlon before he left, but to be fair, I didn't interact with him too much. I saw what he did with the lore, some was good, some was less good. I still think he has passion and is a very good writer. I have talked to him in a discord unaffiliated with Aurora for a bit, as much as timezones allow and I come to the conclusion that the past is the past and people can indeed change. Others have gotten another chance, why is Marlon not allowed one? I think he is already pretty invested in the subject matter that lore is so why hold him back. He has my +1.

[Chada1]

On 20/12/2021 at 17:46, Marlon P. said:

A brief note (such as a roadmap with additional descriptions) identifying the course and creative direction that you'd hopefully like to pursue:

Here is the plan of action I will take as the deputy loremaster.

2; Handle retcons in the way they were meant to be. Retcons when possible should be done IC'ly to serve a triad of purposes.

• Making the world feel lived-in and dynamic.
• Bringing attention to the change.
• Making the change feel natural so players don't feel a forced abruptness and disarray, and gives them time to adjust to the change.
• Where this isn't possible, loudly and transparently explain the change to the entire playerbase. No more "ignore it". No more arguing. 

3; Lock down the foundations of the setting and take it out of developer's and Loremaster's hands.

• The number of FTL methods. The nature of phoron. How FTL works. Anything immediate and viscerally necessary for the basic logic of our universe. If a developer wants to change those they should convince the Head Developer. The number of retcons and rewrites on our universes' basic internal logic is unacceptable and needs the input of a Head Developer.
• Players having to ask basic questions sparks arguments. Individual desires and goals from lore developers about a lore disagreement leads to confusion for players. This is technically sustainable but it's a pain in the ass for everyone involved.
• Encourage player initiative and engagement

6; Enforce civility and respect.

• I've witnessed abrasive behavior from some lore staff towards players. Lore developers carry authority and how they treat players has a disproportionate impact on our server's culture. Nothing anyone does here is worth investing enough of our identities into that it makes us berate someone else. Everyone deserves to feel respected.

Out of the things you've suggested, these are the most important to me.

For 2; There should be no 'Practically non-canon', It should be Canon or non-Canon, no inbetween, and the canonized/non-canonized apps should be clearly within the forum where all players can easily find them, I understand this is just because of an access bug, so it should be easy to fix, but the 'Practically non-canon' trend should really be done away with, it's so negative to the server and lore.

For 3; Right now, FTL and Phoron can change in qualities very often, we know what Bluespace does (Teleportation) but it's still constantly used for other things it shouldn't be, a lot of this stuff really *really* does need to be nailed down, and it isn't. There's a saying, creativity comes from restrictions, this is one of those cases, we need some hard restrictions (limits) on what Phoron, Bluespace, and FTL can achieve and for our writers to write within that basis.

For 6; Civility is enforced already, but it's a Staff should be held to a higher standard than the simple 'Don't be a dick', they are, of course, allowed to dislike Lore and changes, but actively insulting the person who wrote it and ignoring the effort that went into writing the content in question, and of course the current weird abrasiveness for simply asking if something is still canon, that's unacceptable.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Chada1

[Triogenix]

48 minutes ago, Marlon P. said:

I tried! I got rejected. The other person wasn't a lore developer either. As a Loremaster I loved hiring fish out of water. I'm both a fish out of water and a deeply experienced veteran. I'm the alpha release and season 8 DLC all in one! 😎

But I actually reject your premise I think:  I have contributed a lot. I'm cataloguing and indexing every single news article ever posted on the forum. No one else had done that for the entire year I was gone. And I've submitted about half a dozen lore canonization threads. I've also suggested several overhauls to major game systems. Being around for eight years and following developments closely I don't feel the need to fill a quota. But I'll play more if accepted.

I has nothing to do with playing to me, but interaction and activity within the current lore team structure. This could have been a check box off if you your deputy application was accepted, which I wish it was. And for me, it's a mandatory checkbox. Introducing new management staff that haven't been in the lore community under Mofo's reign and regulations is not something I can support, no matter how much I would like to see you in the position due to your plans.

Retcons are the one thing I believe we disagree on, I would merely like them to be more loudly broadcast, and I can see rules loosened to accommodate this. Many species have the remnants of poor lore writers to contend with, and asking them to fix it, which is a big task, for free, seems like asking too much to me.  I'm only a player so I don't know how many of happened since I began playing, but I am assuming a fair amount. Letting individual maintainers run their own major retcons within their species without a thread to clean out the cruft for sometime, so long as they are announced to the playerbase is a fair idea in my mind.

The reason I mentioned Major retcons is because, to my knowledge, news articles fall under major retcons and have to go through the same process.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Triogenix

[Lucaken]

I'm not going to get into whatever sordid history you may or may not have with people from the past - all I will say is that I don't think you can have this amount of regular players and developers (both here and in your other application) saying that they don't want to see you in a position without some merit behind their arguments. You would have to excuse every single incident with 'I got angry, I'm sorry, I'm definitely better now', and by that point it would just be ridiculous. When you have this many receipts, you can't just handwave it away with a 'that's in the past.' That said, as many people have seem to forgotten in this thread, edge-cases like that are not exactly for us to judge - you can post your points and anecdotes, but you're not Marlon's lawyer. Especially when people try to discredit legitimate concerns by saying the poster has a personal vendetta, it just makes whatever +1 you give rather flimsy.

But to get to my actual points - even if you didn't have this reputation, I have severe concerns over your plans for 'managing' the current lore environment. Most of these plans, while seemingly coming from a sincere place, are either horribly tone-deaf and genuinely worrying for both players and developers, or simply sound ineffective to fixing the 'problem'. Starting with:

6 hours ago, Marlon P. said:

I want to create aggressive polling efforts to as many players as possible in a way that emulates our old surveys for events, using google documents, so we can get some pie graphs.

• This survey will poll on how players view lore and end with open ended written response questions on how we can improve and how they would want to contribute as players.

 

While admirable, this is doesn't sound like an effective way to get players involved. Players already have a direct way to contribute through lore, and that is canonization applications. We have recently seen a general increase in those, and that has worked to great effect. Sponsoring more of this behaviour, as well as the general cooperation between players and developers would make it so we can keep improving the same systems we already have, and not have to introduce new and potentially worse ones. Having a hundred pie charts simply doesn't measure up to that - it's indirect and lacks actual action.

6 hours ago, Marlon P. said:

While thats running i will finish indexing all news articles in all threads not done already. Lore developers will be given time to go over them. I might streamline the process by letting them check off articles in a checklist so they can flag them as sus for a review.

Given that most of the teams seemed eager to go over the articles themselves, internally, introducing this rigid system of oversight doesn't seem that useful when that is already something they are more than capable of doing. It is more likely to clog the pipes rather than speed them up, ontop of it already being extra work that they do not need. No players are interested in using it because much of it is lore that is more likely to be retconned than not. Even if you did filter everything through, you would still have a massive catalog of work that needs to be cross-referenced with current lore, and even then it's mostly going to be fluff. In short, a hilariously labour-intensive project with very little actual impact and worth to the player population/writers.

6 hours ago, Marlon P. said:

After this i will run an in-service on proper behavior when approaching a conversation with disagreements. Loredevs will sign off on these. Inservices will then be ran as-needed.

No thanks. We do not need etiquette classes on how to properly have lore discussions - it can already be hard to get people to join said talks, and seeing that there will be private discussions to handle stepping out of line a little is likely to make it even more daunting. This is not even within the perview of the lore team. We have an entire moderation team to oversee this sort of behaviour, and I don't see why we should put that power into the lore team's hands. I've recently had a discussion where the deputy loremaster had to be talked to privately because they themselves got heated and lashed out - proving that there is a reason we put the moderation into the hands of other staff. And even with all that, I have serious concerns that you are the one to be able to enforce this kind of set of rules. Not that far back, you repeatedly said 'it sounds like you have standards you feel strongly about that you want applied to Unathi', because I called a piece of ancient lore (Unathi Super-Dreadnaughts) stupid. I have seen you do the same in other arguments. Someone that makes these sort of gaslight-y comments in the middle of a debate should not be the judge of other people's attitude.

6 hours ago, Marlon P. said:

While thats going on I will work on what i and Cael determine to be The Basics of the lore, lock them down, and forbid them from being changed without head developer approval.

This is the one point that seems the strangest and most worrying to me. As a setting, we prosper due to the diversity of our writers and the improvements that come with every new generation of developers. To lock down pieces of lore this rigidly for future teams is a deeply troubling idea, considering 'The Basics of the lore' could be just about anything the loremaster decides, and may only be challenged by said loremaster. I don't know the minds of every single developer, but even just as a player wanting to contribute, this seems like a needless exercise that is more likely to lock us down into old lore than actually help us move forward. It sets a bad precedent for the functions of the loremaster, and makes us far too rigid.

Overall, the same critique holds true, no matter your personality or legacy - the ideas you suggest to 'fix' our lore seem more geared towards keeping us in the past. Everything from your applications to your suggestions since your return shows an interest in old, faulty lore that we have little use for, and is more likely to make progress harder. More than ever, I think we need fresh blood with fresh ideas, and putting you into a position of power that could one day also make you loremaster seems like a serious folly. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Lucaken

[Chada1]

49 minutes ago, Lucaken said:

I'm not going to get into whatever sordid history you may or may not have with people from the past - all I will say is that I don't think you can have this amount of regular players and developers (both here and in your other application) saying that they don't want to see you in a position without some merit behind their arguments. You would have to excuse every single incident with 'I got angry, I'm sorry, I'm definitely better now', and by that point it would just be ridiculous. When you have this many receipts, you can't just handwave it away with a 'that's in the past.' That said, as many people have seem to forgotten in this thread, edge-cases like that are not exactly for us to judge - you can post your points and anecdotes, but you're not Marlon's lawyer. Especially when people try to discredit legitimate concerns by saying the poster has a personal vendetta, it just makes whatever +1 you give rather flimsy.

But to get to my actual points - even if you didn't have this reputation, I have severe concerns over your plans for 'managing' the current lore environment. Most of these plans, while seemingly coming from a sincere place, are either horribly tone-deaf and genuinely worrying for both players and developers, or simply sound ineffective to fixing the 'problem'. Starting with:

While admirable, this is doesn't sound like an effective way to get players involved. Players already have a direct way to contribute through lore, and that is canonization applications. We have recently seen a general increase in those, and that has worked to great effect. Sponsoring more of this behaviour, as well as the general cooperation between players and developers would make it so we can keep improving the same systems we already have, and not have to introduce new and potentially worse ones. Having a hundred pie charts simply doesn't measure up to that - it's indirect and lacks actual action.

Given that most of the teams seemed eager to go over the articles themselves, internally, introducing this rigid system of oversight doesn't seem that useful when that is already something they are more than capable of doing. It is more likely to clog the pipes rather than speed them up, ontop of it already being extra work that they do not need. No players are interested in using it because much of it is lore that is more likely to be retconned than not. Even if you did filter everything through, you would still have a massive catalog of work that needs to be cross-referenced with current lore, and even then it's mostly going to be fluff. In short, a hilariously labour-intensive project with very little actual impact and worth to the player population/writers.

No thanks. We do not need etiquette classes on how to properly have lore discussions - it can already be hard to get people to join said talks, and seeing that there will be private discussions to handle stepping out of line a little is likely to make it even more daunting. This is not even within the perview of the lore team. We have an entire moderation team to oversee this sort of behaviour, and I don't see why we should put that power into the lore team's hands. I've recently had a discussion where the deputy loremaster had to be talked to privately because they themselves got heated and lashed out - proving that there is a reason we put the moderation into the hands of other staff. And even with all that, I have serious concerns that you are the one to be able to enforce this kind of set of rules. Not that far back, you repeatedly said 'it sounds like you have standards you feel strongly about that you want applied to Unathi', because I called a piece of ancient lore (Unathi Super-Dreadnaughts) stupid. I have seen you do the same in other arguments. Someone that makes these sort of gaslight-y comments in the middle of a debate should not be the judge of other people's attitude.

This is the one point that seems the strangest and most worrying to me. As a setting, we prosper due to the diversity of our writers and the improvements that come with every new generation of developers. To lock down pieces of lore this rigidly for future teams is a deeply troubling idea, considering 'The Basics of the lore' could be just about anything the loremaster decides, and may not be challenged by said loremaster. I don't know the minds of every single developer, but even just as a player wanting to contribute, this seems like a needless exercise that is more likely to lock us down into old lore than actually help us move forward. It sets a bad precedent for the functions of the loremaster, and makes us far too rigid.

Overall, the same critique holds true, no matter your personality or legacy - the ideas you suggest to 'fix' our lore seem more geared towards keeping us in the past. Everything from your applications to your suggestions since your return shows an interest in old, faulty lore that we have little use for, and is more likely to make progress harder. More than ever, I think we need fresh blood with fresh ideas, and putting you into a position of power that could one day also make you loremaster seems like a serious folly. 

A core problem with the common theme of your reply is you seem to think consistency is being in the past -- It's not. Consistent Lore is what makes the gameworld believable and easy to get immersed in, in this sense, some core rules absolutely does push us towards progress. It gives us something to write around that keeps the Lore consistent around us. 

Also, Old Lore is used constantly on a daily basis, most regular characters have incorporated some form of Lore that is a half year-full year old into their character, even if in a minor way. New Lore at times can take a week or longer to be properly incorporated into characters. This idea that 'Old Lore is useless!' does not reflect the ingame reality, at all.

Also your entire reply is incredibly aggressive and patronizing and you should *really* introspect on the start where you argue peoples input is 'Flimsy' because it addresses someone criticising anothers character, you should check yourself on that. 
Edit^ I do think this is true in a way, but I shouldn't have said this and I'm sorry for doing so.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Chada1

[Marlon P.]

34 minutes ago, Lucaken said:

[nixed]

A fantastic reply Lucaken! You're getting the gears in my head moving. I will reply to your reply when I am back from my trip out of state. Or if I get bored while out of state enough to tap on my phone for a million years (I am slow with texting). Thank you!

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Marlon P.

[niennab]

I think it's incredibly important for someone in the lore master positions to have good communication skills. Unfortunately from what I have seen of you in the official Discord's, you have a tendency to get off topic, aggressive, or make claims about the conversation while it's being held. Then, when push comes to shove, you claim everyone misunderstood one another.

As such, I am not confident that you'd be appropriate for the position of Deputy Lore Master. The position of lore master and maintainer requires a moderator more than anything. -1

[Marlon P.]

4 hours ago, niennab said:

Sic

Aggressive? What do you mean by that?

And how should behavior you say you see in me be addressed when exhibited by people already in the team? Say i actually got the position. What should be done about it, policy-wise?

Edited December 22, 2021 by Marlon P.

[Marlon P.]

14 hours ago, Lucaken said:

While admirable, this is doesn't sound like an effective way to get players involved. Players already have a direct way to contribute through lore,

I want more than lore canonization. I want event volunteer, i want players suggesting events, i want players setting up persistent little arcs that the staff can acknowledge and facilitate. I've noticed that the server has fallen into a trend of events happening and being self contained.... then once thats over its ss13's disconnected round to round to round. I say pie charts partially to be facetious. After the antag contests i remember big google polls that were very helpful for everyone and informed discussions with emperical findings. And informed future development. Its more inclusive a set of findings thn a single post-game poll.

14 hours ago, Lucaken said:

articles themselves, internally, introducing this rigid system of oversight

I haven't proposed more rigid oversight about existing articles - ive offered to do myself what only the tajaradevs have done with going over the articles. It will be easier and more convienent for the lore team. There's been a lot of frustration about the workload required in dealing with the articles - i did most of the bulk of that work in two weeks.

Where i do comment on future articles, the rigidity is that they be given a clear purpose. Cael is already doing this and my proposal is basically falling in line right with Cael. The only thing I'd reinforce is that where it makes sense we need to see impacts from galaxy shaking events on station.

13 hours ago, Chada1 said:

A core problem with the common theme of your reply is you seem to think consistency is being in the past -- It's not. Consistent Lore is what makes the gameworld believable and easy to get immersed in, in this sense, some core rules absolutely does push us towards progress. It gives us something to write around that keeps the Lore consistent around us. 

I agree! It's not all in the past. I hope that you may notice my efforts on "the past" are to address complaints already here. It's going to happen with or without me. I'd love to stop having to address the past. It rapidly loses its appeal

14 hours ago, Lucaken said:

To lock down pieces of lore this rigidly for future teams is a deeply troubling idea

How should I address yearly reboots of core server logic regarding phoron and bluespace?

 

14 hours ago, Lucaken said:

No thanks. We do not need etiquette classes on how to properly have lore discussions

How should I address lore developers using rude and demeaning words when talking about peoples work, or asking lore questions? How should i address conduct that makes me feel belittled; not to mention others?

 

 

(Yes i got bored already)

Edited December 22, 2021 by Marlon P.

[SatinsPristOTD]

So! I did some forum digging (because I'm still a +1'er to this application, and I wanted it to be in good faith)

The past problems with Marlon (and, unfortunately I have to call you Jackboot here so others can search the forums for that name), do.... bring up some past drama I had ENTIRELY forgotten about. There's a good... reason why I bring it up, too.

Recently, Campin's CCIA application was DENIED based on part of the event that came from this whole debacle, so I guess we need to decide exactly where "the past is the past" ends, and "What's been done can't be forgiven" begins.
 

This was in 2018. It's where we see the feud between the two appear. I can't deny, rereading this (and checking Discord chats from that date) reminded me that Jackboot's.... roleplay at the time was damn near questionable. This was the era of the warform on Aurora. The era of Uriel Evans as Captain. The era of your HOP Tajaran being perhaps the worst Command member we've had in a very long time.

It's also the era where I, in my head, write you off as being so close to the sun, your wings aren't just melting, Icarus. You're falling, hard. Burnt out. You did weaponize an IR against Campin Killer, and when you didn't get the result you wanted, you made a complaint about him. You did, and I remember this rather vividly, log on as a throw away character and harass him ICly. I remember this throw away journalist because you were so HASTY to make it, that you forgot to even change the gender to fit right, and I remember asking in IC about the mixup.

Look, I still think you can write. I'm still happy to see a trial put in place with the stipulation that you get thrown out by the seat of your pants if we witness stuff like this again.

But I still think you can write... and I still think I'd like to see a second chance. (I'd also like to see a revision to the whole "The past is the past/what's been done can't be forgiven" half-rule we've got running around but that's another topic for another day)


I hope this removes cobwebs from everyone's brain!

[Marlon P.]

A fantastic post @SatinsPristOTD; my only refutation is that to my memory i never played Uriel Evans nor any warforms. 

Also wow what an aggressive tone i had in this complaint. The end result (policy on lying to ccia being implemented) could have been reached without acting like that. Something must have been going on to put me in a sour mood. Still, no excuse for that!

[SatinsPristOTD]

You're correct. Uriel Evans is played by LordPwner (and I think he's left the community( and the warform was uh... Probably Alb. I'm 60% it was Alb. You were Jawdat on a canon Lii'dra event that sparred the whole IR, Complaint about lying on the IR, and then the IC harassment.

 

[The7thLain]

Hello, I'm the current Human Lore Developer/Maintainer. I'd both like to reply to this statement and additionally list my thoughts on this applicant. I will be using my own experiences and outlook on lore and the requirements for a candidate. I aim to make a very comprehensive response which articulately expresses my thoughts in great detail. It will be split into two parts. The first will be in response to various points made in the application proper, and the second will be on my thoughts on the spirit of the application in general. 

 

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

Then a human developer said he'd have to think about it, and a little bit later said it was canon "for now".

This is correct. All lore, especially more species-specific lore, is canon until otherwise retconned or determined by the species lore team. Anything and everything can be retconned or changed after the fact if there is enough support to do so from the lore team, therefore, everything is canon "for now," until it isn't, whether that is done OOCly or ICly. Sol, which at the moment is a place of immense turmoil and change at the moment with warlord factions and in-fighting and with elections even being a future possibility, a lot of things are subject to change for the future of Sol and the foundation that future is built upon. While I will admit that the status of ATLAS was nebulous at best, it was something that was overlooked in the course of the King of the World Arc. Admiral Frost was killed, and provisions were not made to adequately determine the fate of his party during this discussion. Solarian politics as a whole are something we intend on fleshing out and developing greatly beginning next year. 

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

Slow down the proliferation of human planets and factions.

Currently, the human lore team has no plans to add new planets or factions barring a few additions with the soon-to-be-released Elyra overhaul. After this, we plan on developing some of our existing locations in the CoC and Sol Alliance. The progression of human lore is already taking this direction which you are encouraging and the player base will see its impact most beginning next year.

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

Most immediately: encourage a player-ran newspaper with basic oversight. Something small scale.

This is something I am quite opposed to. Players are not privy to information about potential changes that may impact the factions or locations they may wish to write about. Oversight, may indeed fix this problem, but we either would run the risk of disappointing players and making them feel betrayed because their additions to a player-made newspaper may contradict the vision/in-development work of the lore team proper and will therefore be denied. It is inevitable that the player base will not see completely eye-to-eye with the lore team in how they perceive the setting of the lore, simply ask around about the various head-canons that players hold that are not accepted by the lore team, yet in some cases are pushed by members of the community as canon lore with how they play their characters. This is discouraged. There is a problem I feel, with making promises to have a newspaper that players are guaranteed to make contributions to, only to then have their submissions denied for reasons they will not know until the aforementioned vision/in-development content is released. I think we would be doing the player base a disservice, however it would be something we would need to do regardless, as we do for the same reasons with submissions in canonization apps or those presented to us on discord already.

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

Ban the phrase "Do it yourself". Engage with them and encourage them. Don't make us feel like unwanted pests.

If a player wants something added that the lore team is not currently working on, it is on them to add it. As a lore team, we are not obligated to integrate or approve of ideas submitted to us by anyone, we approve based on our judgement and consensus as a team. If a lore submission either given to us in DM's or on the forum's canonization requests is not liked by those on the team or conflicts with currently established lore, it will not be implemented regardless of player interest or passion. Additionally, some ideas may take a while to be approved, either because lore staff positions change between members or because an idea is liked, but cannot be slotted into the lore with how it exists currently and requires revision or change. Take Visegrad, a community created planet added by the Human lore team this year by accepting its longstanding canonization application, as an example.

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

Identify and encourage every iota of interest shown by new or otherwise uninvolved players. Encourage and uplift them. NOW!

There's nothing stopping a player from DM'ing me or anyone else on the lore team with an idea or to check their thoughts on the lore. Nor is there anything stopping them from contributing to discussion on the forums or on the discord. The opportunities for them to voice their thoughts themselves are there, we have newer players to the server who are in quite interested in lore. If a player is "unvoiced," it is by negligence or choice. We have multiple discord servers with various channels devoted to lore discussion where those in the community can openly voice their thoughts on their lore whether they've been on the server for five years or five minutes. Anyone can voice their thoughts. Again, the lore team is not obliged to implement a person's ideas to the lore simply because they play on the server and they want to add them. Additionally, all members of the lore team can be contacted directly and often are. I have received DM's from no less than four players asking about concerns with the lore, checking their characters with it, or asking about new ideas for it this past week alone. 

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

We need to find out what interests the new generation of players and sucker them into feeling validated and invested enough to start applying themselves to our lore development.

This is not something that is lost on us as a team or myself personally. One of the reasons that Dominia receives such constant updates relative to other areas of Human lore is along with it being a favourite or at least an interest among many who play human characters is that it is a faction that many new players gravitate towards and find intriguing due to its unique government, society, and religion. New additions are made here not only because there is a desire within the human lore team to see it added onto, but also because it is a faction that many new players take an interest in.

I feel like you contradict this idea of uplifting popular lore wanted for by the community with some of your actions in the past. The decision to enforce a variety of cultures onto the setting in regards to humanity, is one that I agree with and have done myself on various planets in the human setting, namely Gadpathur and Pluto. However, going by this logic of specialising lore to player trends and wants, if the majority of the player base wants to play a character from a western setting, why would we not write lore catering to that interest of playing characters who are descended from Western societies or otherwise played as if from one? It is popular among new and veteran players alike to play characters like this, so why would we not make lore that better suits the interests of the majority of our human player base, something they express by the characters they play? Where would this additude of appealing to the new, or to the majority of our players stop? I am aware that some of the lore that has most intrigued the community has been lore that nobody was asking for or even knew was coming, but how would this balance be struck?

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

Two of our races (Tajara and Unathi) each have less than three primary planets and they have more content than entire DnD campaign modules.

While I agree with your sentiments on slowing the spread of new human additions in the form of factions and locations which I have detailed already, I do not think this comparison between humanity and Unathi/Tajara is a good one to make, as the species themselves are vastly different. Humanity is the species in our galaxy with the largest population, territory, and even without the addition of warlord factions, faction numbers. It is inevitable that there will be more locations than those of Tajara or Unathi who were written from the beginning as being confined to a very small number of areas. Given this confinement, writing for these species can only focus on either those locations or their species' interactions with other factions, meanwhile Humanity has an exceptionally large geographic scale in which it inhabits. It is unreasonable to expect the same detail on the miniscule level that the Unathi and Tajara devs have painstakingly created over the span of multiple years for mostly 4 planets for Humanity, a species which has various factions that in themselves include multiple hugely different locations, most being entire planets or moons. This would have been the case even before the addition of warlord factions and locations that have been added as recently as nearly a year and a half ago. This is not an excuse for the underdevelopment of human-related lore in some areas of our setting, as I have said earlier, just something that I would like to straighten out.

On 20/12/2021 at 16:46, Marlon P. said:

6. Enforce civility and respect.

• I've witnessed abrasive behavior from some lore staff towards players. Lore developers carry authority and how they treat players has a disproportionate impact on our server's culture. Nothing anyone does here is worth investing enough of our identities into that it makes us berate someone else. Everyone deserves to feel respected.

 

I support this wholeheartedly. As a staff member and lore developer, I aim to make all people I interact with feel respected and equal and I expect this of my fellow writers as well. While nobody is perfect, people should aspire to be civil, polite, and well-mannered towards others. Overall, a sense of dignity should permeate all interactions in our community. There should not be belittling in the community from lore writers or players over people not knowing certain elements of lore, as this can discourage people from actually learning about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Onto my thoughts on the general ideas and goals stated in the application here. This idea of a bottom-up cultural shift is something I am fundamentally opposed to in a variety of different ways. To be clear, I am not saying that I do not want the community to be interested in our lore and contributing to it, there is no but to that statement.

I question the necessity for this proposed change though, as I've mentioned before, we already have multiple ways that a player can contribute to the lore of our setting should they choose to do so. My concerns with the player-operated newspaper only echo here however, because if we are giving the community the impression that their ideas will be accepted and that everyone should volunteer for lore creation, this will not only lead to disputes between staff and players, but disputes between staff and the players themselves. You were on the lore team before, so I am sure that you are aware of how many ideas can die in discussion or how disputes over them can become very impassioned. Bringing the community more broadly into the development of the lore wholesale would only expand these sorts of problems, if say two or more community members had different written ideas on the same subject. Of course it is possible that there may be cooperation between players in the creation of lore through this shift and may be able to compromise on their ideas, but also also, they may not be. Moreover, there is nothing stopping them from cooperating on ideas as things are now.

Arguments already break out between people in our player base not just over what lore is canon, as you mentioned in your original post, but over who's assumptions about a faction or location are more "valid," say if someone has a different idea on how stationbounds or AI should work and are then applying this to the setting as a whole, or if someone has an idea that even though a Dreg is no longer living in the Eridani undercity, are employed by a megacorp, and live in Biesel, that they should still be grossly impoverished as if they were in Eridani and then propagates this view to apply to all dreg characters. There are an exceptionally few areas of lore that the community as a whole wants and even then, there is disagreement on the details. Moreover there are topics which are very hotly contested by some in the community such as LGBT rights of Tajara, particuarly those on Adhomai, and the large, spur-wide oppression and enslavement or even outright hatred of IPCs by organic races, though primarily humans to name two, either of which when brought up usually spark an argument and ruin any discussion that was previously occurring. By and large, due to conflicting viewpoints, creative visions, and OOCly ideals held by our players, the community does not know what lore it wants to see. It is not as if the lore team creates things that nobody in our player base wants to see, as nearly *every* release that I have seen since I became the Human Lore Developer last year, either from my own team or the other species teams, has been received positively more so than not. I believe the current system is adequate and no changes need to be made, the players have all the tools at their disposal to create and submit ideas to the lore team already. 

A communalistic approach to lore writing will grind progress and additions to a halt and will bankrupt the drive of staff members in the lore team to continue creating and maintaining lore. If the lore teams have to spend the majority of their time as writers working with anyone who decides to write something down whether they've been working on the idea for five minutes or five months as equal to one another because we are discouraged from telling a player to "do it themselves," and are expected to hold everyone's hand through the writing process rather than tell them to create something on their own until its developed enough for us to take it seriously as a potential addition, there will be a huge slowdown to output from the writers and lore team, the people who are in the positions they hold first and foremost to write and maintain the lore. There is a limited amount of time that the lore team has for this hobby, which is what it is, a hobby, and feelings of burnout and dips in activity are inevitable among people in these positions; I speak from experience having seen many of my fellow lore-writers leave simply because they cannot bring themselves to give the energy to the maintenance and creation of the lore any longer. We are not paid to do this and take time to do it and be figures in the community out of our free time because we enjoy working with the community and are passionate about the things we create. A solid portion of the people on the lore team are also moderators, admins, developers, CCIA, or spriters doing other things in the community along with writing and lore maintenance and of course with still maintaining their real lives, jobs, educations, relationships, etc. If all of our time in the community is going to be spent mediating and critiquing everyone who thinks their idea is the best idea for our setting simply by the virtue that they have it, there is little point to having the title of "writer," because the people on the lore team will be little more than editors for content from the community, content which by the very strict standards that the lore teams adhere to currently for what they allow into the setting, will most likely be rejected or vastly altered anyway.

This is not to say that the lore team does not do its best to work with community members to see their ideas added. Examples from my own experience are an entire planet, Visegrad, something that took nearly four months of back and forth development and tweaks between lore masters, the lore team as a whole, the human lore team, and its creator, @DanseMacabre. Other additions include new beverage descriptions and origins, new in-game text sprites for corporate logos, additions to the Solarian warlord states, a bevy of in-game cosmetics, along with many others. This is just what I personally have overseen in my interactions with the community, with the human lore team and other teams also adding in community submissions often. We already work with the community a lot, and we are also keen to listen to feedback on our lore from the player base. While the process of submission, having it either be initially accepted for consideration or denied outright, then waiting while the lore team deliberates to how/if the idea needs to be changed or should be rejected, and then receiving a verdict and having your idea morphed and altered by the writers can indeed be slow and somewhat disappointing one at times and of course could be more efficient, its framework and dynamic it places between the lore team and the community is the best way to parse and assign value to the different ideas posed to the lore team by the community. A person seeking to change this I do not think is suitable to hold the deputy loremaster position, and as much of your application centres around this ideal, I cannot support you as an applicant.

-1

Edited December 22, 2021 by TheBurninSherman
Spelling and minor sentence additions. Changed font colour of -1.

[Zelmana]

I'm not going to write a novel to explain my frustration with how you're being slighted here.

Your work in the past is great, and more importantly COHESIVE.
At the moment, all of the developer applicants recognize that the lore is messy at best and has no overarching direction.
Applicants all agree that a big cleanup effort is needed.

Before I read this applicant's post, I read another applicant discuss cleaning up lore. I posed a question specifying my interest in the human lore direction and some of the issues I see here. A lot of foundation lore preceding the KoTW arc has been messed with, retconned, made more complex, ignored, or otherwise just been poorly managed.

I think that most of the applicants can develop good lore with faithful intentions.


However, I trust Marlon moreso in terms of what I find most lacking in our lore team- overall ORCHESTRATION of lore.

[Marlon P.]

Player ran initiatives and newspaper will not feud with established lore. Remember that newspapers are not precognitient; if a paper is contradicted it can roll with it. Itll be a great way to teach improv!

The scale will also be smaller. The newspaper will be contained to the NBT ship itself. See this thread:

"Stories on a Captain who recently crashed the ship into an asteroid, stories about an off-screen party to celebrate someone's birthday, the canon obituaries, wedding announcements, interviews with crew, biting editorials about some subject or another, announcement of impending cooking contests... With these tools players will have a great ability to run their own little media eco-system.

After 20 days stories are archived, no longer visible on the in-game newscaster but accessible via the Aurora-WI in an archive."

 

Ill touch on the rest later. Great post sherman and zelmana

Edited December 22, 2021 by Marlon P.

[Marlon P.]

Here are the things that should require Head Developer approval to change in canon. Obviously antags that arent canon can do whatever. As deputy i will push for this list:

TIme travel. It's impossibility or conditions of use.

Ftl. The methods that exist for our setting, known ICly or otherwise.

The number of meaningful dimensions. (Mechanically we have three. Ours, bluespace, and whats behind the veil - aka redspace)

Phoron. How it works.

Playable Alien races. (Already exists)

The entity(s) we work for.

Changing these changes the entire setting and can cause reality itself to break down or just make a massive headache for the future.

[Marlon P.]

 

On 22/12/2021 at 10:05, TheBurninSherman said:

While I agree with your sentiments on slowing the spread of new human additions in the form of factions and locations which I have detailed already, I do not think this comparison between humanity and Unathi/Tajara is a good one to make, [...] Humanity is the species in our galaxy with the largest population, territory [...]

The destruction of the Alliance has added nine additional factions to your workload. That's nine factions that need a history, main planet or location, a description of what life is like there, its general demographics, economy, how its people get to Tau Ceti, its ideology, its relationship with other warlords as well as alien races, its military, the state of its war with the other warlords, its criminal elements, its general aesthetic.... Then you have the main human factions: Elyra, the remnant of Sol, Dominia...

Each one of these factions, no matter how popular, by the nature of existing has a mandatory minimum amount of detail required to justify them being named and mentioned on the wiki. "Human lore" is only one team, but you have the workload that would feasibly need to be broken up into 9 distinct teams. The entire original purpose of locking down the Alliance and The Frontier One (that keeps getting renamed) as "the" human factions and being bashful about adding in more was entirely because the human lore team can get stunlocked into developing a single faction for a prolonged length of time and other places start to atrophy.

What do you do after you rehaul Elyra, and then have to rehaul the 9+ factions? Then by the time you're done with that, you'll need to rehaul them again, then again, then again. Vestigial elements of human lore will always be present, and you will never, ever catch up on the workload you're given. At least, I've never seen it happen. And that was with a vastly reduced amount of human factions.

How can a deputy loremaster assist the human lore development in not being trapped in maintenance hell, without throttling its growth, and even working to gobble up the warlords into a singular entity again? Do you believe the current status quo is maintainable with your current manpower? Can you even handle major events and lore arcs while also constantly keeping all this up to date?

On 22/12/2021 at 10:05, TheBurninSherman said:

if the majority of the player base wants to play a character from a western setting, why would we not write lore catering to that interest of playing characters who are descended from Western societies or otherwise played as if from one?

You blew up your space western cowboy planet of Mars - I don't wanna hear it! Lol just teasing. We have fun here.

In serious: The general vibe of this is addressed in this OC thread, outlining a policy that was more or less maintained a long time. Not sure about now.

Human space is divided into four rough sections. Sol, the Inner Colonies, Mid Colonies, Outer Colonies, and the Frontier. [...] The Inner Colonies are like the suburbia of Alliance space [...] The Mid Colonies are like the small towns surrounding the major city and suburbia that is the center of Alliance space [...] Outer Colonies are the fringe of Alliance control [...] The Frontier are systems completely independent from the Sol Alliance. The political state of the Frontier is in constant flux, as the uncountable nations, large and small, wax and wane [...]

Each 'sphere' of human space is meant to provide such a general vibe that any planet or faction can slot anywhere at any point in time. In addition, being in the alliance means you don't have to worry about international relations, the military, or a unique set of laws.  You have the general overview, you put across its aesthetics, and boom you have a background for characters to come from. Fads for factions come and go, and a planet or system is so much easier to maintain than an entire stellar nation.

So I'd ask again - how are you supposed to keep up with all of this? How can a deputy loremaster coordinate this?

 

On 22/12/2021 at 10:05, TheBurninSherman said:

There are an exceptionally few areas of lore that the community as a whole wants and even then, there is disagreement on the details.

That is why the buck should stop with the loremasters and head developer, as it always has. 

 

On 22/12/2021 at 10:05, TheBurninSherman said:

We are not paid to do this and take time to do it and be figures in the community out of our free time because we enjoy working with the community and are passionate about the things we create.

I agree wholeheartedly. That is why the work of maintenance needs to be diminished. Have you had many opportunities to oversee things you are truly passionate about since KOTW? What are the developments in humanity that bring you joy? I want you to express your creativity and drive, as with everyone else, but the systemic issues in how human lore is developed will continue to gobble up your time. I have seen it happen live and I do not want to see it continue.

On 22/12/2021 at 10:05, TheBurninSherman said:

There is a limited amount of time that the lore team has for this hobby, which is what it is, a hobby, and feelings of burnout and dips in activity are inevitable among people in these positions; I speak from experience having seen many of my fellow lore-writers leave simply because they cannot bring themselves to give the energy to the maintenance and creation of the lore any longer.

I saw this happen over a timescale that will become "a decade" sooner rather than later. I can now identify the why and how, as well as the why and how of how to fix it.

On 22/12/2021 at 10:05, TheBurninSherman said:

A communalistic approach to lore writing will grind progress and additions to a halt and will bankrupt the drive of staff members in the lore team to continue creating and maintaining lore. If the lore teams have to spend the majority of their time as writers working with anyone who decides to write something down whether they've been working on the idea for five minutes or five months as equal to one another because we are discouraged from telling a player to "do it themselves,

I am confident that there is only a misunderstanding in what I am advocating. I am not saying I will chain you to every random DM or lore question. Only that you are better able to achieve the two goals of:

1. Making a player with an idea or suggestion feel heard.
2. Allocate your time and efforts wisely.

Listening is the cheapest thing you can gift someone. For example, if you did read something, you could ask a follow-up question about something listed and get them to make a forum thread. Or at minimum mention you're busy and encourage them to post about it on the forum to get input so you can get to it later without it being lost in discord. In this case you have shown an interest (feigned or otherwise - even if the feigning is just you wanting to get to it "later") and also encouraged them to do something active and productive. And with it being a forum thread, you can even find it more easily than a discord comment. And a more active forum means more people come to the forum, which means more players make forum accounts. Which feeds a positive cycle of growth. And do you think you'll have the time to engage with players on things like

On 22/12/2021 at 10:05, TheBurninSherman said:

new beverage descriptions and origins, new in-game text sprites for corporate logos, [...], a bevy of in-game cosmetics, along with many others

If you had a big bulk of your maintenance work lifted? 

I apologize if I come off like I'm advocating abolishing the class system of lore developers entirely. I agree and sympathies with practically everything you've posted. I do not believe that encouraging player involvement in the manners I plan to will constitute a threat to your prerogatives, because at the bare minimum it's just a manner of turning someone down in a way that doesn't come off as dismissive and rude.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Marlon P.