Replace Technomancer with Wizard

[Yonnimer]

What it says in the title, Technomancer has felt like a massive downgrade compared to wizard prior to removing it, and I don't think technomancer has really been enjoyed by the community for a long while. Compared to wizard, technomancer is very restrictive in terms of powers and gimmick potential, it feels more like what should be a singular spell tome for wizard over all that they can have. Technomancer cores also just don't have much going for them, they're all fairly samey, meanwhile spell tomes actually felt different and fairly robust in terms of gimmick protentional.

 

In saying this, I don't think we should completely remove technomancer, but instead keep it as a choice for some kind of spellbook for wizards to still choose if they are so inclined. 

[Granodd]

Technomancer is just a really neutered Wizard.

I've heard things about it being more "friendly to the lore" because it's a tech based antag and not something straight up magic. But if that's the case then why do we still have things like Vampire and Cult? This isn't even mentioning the fact that the few times that I have played Techno it just does not feel great at all. A combination of  the instability mechanic and the fact that the spell selection is fairly limited just makes it an extremely bad solo antagonist for driving the round.

The spells it does have pigeonhole it into some kind of goofy gimmick, seeing as combat gimmicks without a stability core just don't work due to the instability mechanic that starts burning you alive for the sin of casting two or three spells.

Adding back wizard while removing whatever problematic spells it had I think would make the game mode more enjoyable to play and also better at propelling a round on its own.

[Carver]

Can't we just have both?

[CampinKiller]

Wizard rounds were awful. I do not want to go back to what is essentially an encouraged wacky, completely unbelievable, and borderline lrp game mode. Before its removal, probably a quarter of the crew would cryo immediately upon realizing it was wizard (I being one of them), because the game mode was just that bad and poor for RP.

[restricted]

A preferable solution is to remove technomancer from secret. Neither game mode is fun.

[ClemTheDuck]

while techno has alot of issues i still think it is better than wizard, the fucking fireball spam, and staff of change hijinks was more than enough to put me off it. It was never fun to deal with, id rather techno be tweaked and tuned than add wizard back

 

[EJJ]

I think a lot of people's problems come down to how frequently Techno rolls. How about raising the roll to 15 people? Or lowering frequency?

[Sparky_hotdog]

1 hour ago, EJJ said:

I think a lot of people's problems come down to how frequently Techno rolls. How about raising the roll to 15 people? Or lowering frequency?

I think right now techno only rolls for below 15 folk, and for good reason; As an antag, they just cannot deal with large rounds. This is what has lead to the recent PR to remove visitors as well.

I do however think you have a point regarding the frequency of rolls. This is due to the fact that most rounds in a day are low pop, and thus the vast majority of the secret rounds we see are a techno/traitor/vamp/extended roll. My general perception is that people are happier to ready for off ship antags, so techno is far more likely to come up. And if you play any mode two or three times a day, nearly every day of the week, it starts to feel pretty stale, especially when it is admittedly as limited as techo.

Overall, I have to agree in that Wizard, for all its frustrating shenanigans and bordering lrp gimmicks, felt like a more complete gamemode. You didn't know pretty exactly how the round was going to shake out the second you worked out there was one on board. While I personally am an advocate for less magic antags, and the tech side of techno feels more grounded in the setting, I still can't help but agree that techno feels like a more bland mode.

[MattAtlas]

Voting for dismissal. Technomancer replaced wizard to try and (unsuccessfully) solve some of the inherent issues with the gamemode, chiefly the fact that a D&D-type gamemode really has no place on our server.  I'd argue that this goes for Technomancer too at this point as well.

Replacing Technomancer with Wizard again would just result in the same problems resurfacing, because the problem with Wizard cannot and won't be fixed -- the fact that it's inherently immersion breaking. At this point, I would rather see Technomancer just go completely and not be replaced with another wacky gamemode.

[Evandorf]

I don’t necessarily have issues with “wacky” game modes but I would agree the wizard was a step too far regarding immersion. 
 

The techno can flavor themselves in a lot of different ways by changing the appearance of their clothes and the armor they have is pretty decent. I’ve had good success using more benign spells recently and being less threatening. Changing your core’s appearance too is pretty useful but in a universe with blue space errors and teleportation there’s no reason why you can’t flavor the weird as accessing another dimension or science gone wrong. 

[Evandorf]

I’d say that if anything the techno needs access to wide ranging effects to engage more people. He doesn’t get an uplink and can’t send fake centcom messages or other events. 
 

A lot of technos try to go helpful or working against a common foe but don’t have a way to actualize that unless they join with another antag.

[Kintsugi]

13 hours ago, MattAtlas said:

Voting for dismissal. Technomancer replaced wizard to try and (unsuccessfully) solve some of the inherent issues with the gamemode, chiefly the fact that a D&D-type gamemode really has no place on our server.  I'd argue that this goes for Technomancer too at this point as well.

Replacing Technomancer with Wizard again would just result in the same problems resurfacing, because the problem with Wizard cannot and won't be fixed -- the fact that it's inherently immersion breaking. At this point, I would rather see Technomancer just go completely and not be replaced with another wacky gamemode.

This is really all there is to it. Wizard is fundamentally incompatible with Aurora - technomancer was a half-measure to replace it, sharing many of the same problems. We need to do away with our hesitation to outright remove atrociously bad gamemodes, because if wizard returns? It is not going to be an improvement. It'll be more of the same nonsense dressed up in blue robes.

[EJJ]

It feels like the majority vote in this thread and honestly a lot of the desire in-game is just to remove techno. I do worry if Techno goes Loner will just sort of take its place.

[Granodd]

I'm curious what the tonal difference is between something like wizard and something like vampire and cultist is, given they're all basically magic. Is it because people pull out more memes as a wizard? And if  that's really the main issue then why not just completely pivot the theme of it.

Do away with anything resembling magic or wands or staves or robes and have it be more like an artificer. Someone whose aesthetic is technology and hacking and not emulating magic with things that look like they're still semi-magical.

[Sycmos]

27 minutes ago, Granodd said:

I'm curious what the tonal difference is between something like wizard and something like vampire and cultist is, given they're all basically magic. Is it because people pull out more memes as a wizard? And if  that's really the main issue then why not just completely pivot the theme of it.

Do away with anything resembling magic or wands or staves or robes and have it be more like an artificer. Someone whose aesthetic is technology and hacking and not emulating magic with things that look like they're still semi-magical.

Unless there's a deliberate and concise effort via PRs to adjust the game mode and admin action to follow up it cannot be guaranteed that players will follow themes coherent with our setting. Wizard and Technomancer suffer from the same disconnect that a number of SS13 gamemodes Aurora still keeps to make the rotation varied in that they have little keeping them grounded in the lore and tone of our universe, and more often than not that's enough reason that those who play those roles regularly don't concern themselves with it altogether.

Technomancer was an attempt to rectify that issue and instead the same manner of LRP-adjacent play that pushed players to cryo during Wizard was exhibited. You can't reasonably police antagonist play without stifling interest, but you can't not police it either.

Honestly? Remove both. Unless it received significant retooling I have no interest in going back to fireball and staff of change wizardry and I'm certain others feel the same.

[Tristan63]

I'd have to say that in the rounds I've played that are techno, it is basically extended+. I have interacted with techno antags before aswell, and ultimately it feels comical because it all chops up to "oh its bluespace tech!" which is why they are, for whatever reason on the Horizon doing lord knows what. I agree with its removal from secret.

[Granodd]

I think game modes that only have a single antag and no additional antag flow like autotraitor, changeling, or vampire does very easily lead to "extended+". Especially when the antag in question isn't exactly powerful or possesses ways to evade capture and prolong making the round interesting. Loner is similar to Technomancer in being the only other solo antagonist, but has a vastly stronger kit, partly due to sharing one with traitors who recently received some improvements. Both can easily get caught and then turn the round into extended+ for everyone but security, though Techno feels like it's more likely to have that happen due to its kit.

[witchbells]

Technomancer adds nothing to the game other than to satisfy the people who moaned about how "unrealistic" it is. The round type is boring at best and insufferably obnoxious at worst. Wizard had a lot of effort put into diversifiying it before it was removed and it could add to rounds, there were like five different types of wizard, each with their own angles to play into. It could certainly be improved upon, but technomancer was a deliberate downgrade.

[NerdyVampire]

I wouldn't mind moving on to episode VI: Return of the Wizard.

[Captain Gecko]

Personally I'm for the return of the Wizard... Mostly.

 

Technomancer is way too limiting as far as making gimmicks go. Nothing, as a Wizard, prevented you from actually making a Technomancer gimmick. The only thing that made Wizard interesting was that it was basically a Loner with wilder gimmicks and powers. Removing this ability to go for wilder gimmicks just killed all the interest the Wizard had in the first place, for me.

Secondly, I don't agree with "magic" being not in line with the setting. Call it "magic", "paranormal events" or "anomalies", their existence is canon. That and, it's an antagonist anyways, it is not meant to be canon. We can have Borers and Revenants, so why not a man who somehow can harness some kind of power that allows him to summon Monkeys, teleport around, and put his hand on fire.

 

Now, apparently, Wizard had some balancing issue? I'm not very good with balancing, but I'm sure that we can a Wizard and just... Balance the spells without turning it into something that forces us into a single kind of gimmick.

Second issue is the wacky side, perhaps? It's less about magic and more about the old/original gimmick of the Wizard Federation? But just like with the Syndicate for some other antags, I assumed that most ignored that? I know I did. Worst case scenario, just rename it. Make a it Wizard, but call it, I don't know, "Paranormal Element", something much broader and not as wacky?

[Kintsugi]

One could sanitize wizard to the moon and back and you would still end up with gimmicks like this:

And so on ad infinitum - I can only recall ONE good wizard round I had on Aurora, ever. People will point to vampire and cult as being similarly magical gamemode, but the tone of those are entirely different (Although I do think vampire should absolutely get the boot too, but that's a hill I don't want to die on). The simple fact of the matter is that wizard attracts silly, outlandish, and anti-roleplay gimmicks. It does this because of its blatantly dissonant tone with regards to our setting - as a consequence of its origin as a gamemode designed for an LRP server - and because it is an off-station antagonist, which allows people to be wackier than they would be if they were playing their normal characters.

Sanitizing wizard to make it less meme-y wouldn't work. I know that because that is what technomancer is - it is wizard refluffed to be less outright Gandalf The Blue. Nonetheless, technomancer gimmicks tend to be the same as wizard ones - less goofy gimmicks occur with greater frequency, but you still have stuff like this happening with techno:

The fact of the matter is that these gamemodes are bad for the server, because of what they are: Outlandish solo antagonists coming and gallivanting around with absurd powers and abilities. They are a net detriment to the server, and actively completely derail any roleplay that might occur in a round. I'm sorry that the lowpop crowd might suffer from losing a gamemode - but it is a gamemode we SHOULD lose, because it's bad for us as a server.

Technomancer was a half-measure to remove a gamemode that, because of how Aurora gamemode selection and development works, is nearly impossible to remove without petitioning the host of the server directly. I personally advocated for the addition of technomancer, and I stand by that - but I also feel more strongly now than ever that we should've just removed wizard and washed our hands of it.

[canon35]

I largely agree with Yonni's suggestion with some caveats, some of which have already been stated.

Readd the wizard code, see if its possible to add technomancer abilities still, cut out the more horrid or meme shit like the staff of change, make it so you don't need spells to preform magic by default and put in chameleon kits so the wizard can dress themselves how they wish, then get rid of the name wizard and make it something like "unique visitor" or "empowered" or whatever. Technomancer is more boring and wizard was more painful, I'll admit, but at the very least wizard gave you more options and it was continued to be devved in that vein of providing more options while cutting the stupid shit (As Alb did with Lich.) it can be less CBT. I have no idea if nuking a gamemode is even on the table given that I've seen dev/admin staff before say they don't want to keep cutting gamemodes but if not then there's ways to try and get rid of the boringness that came with Technomancer and mitigate the shittiness of wizard. 

[limette]

The fact is that technomancer DOES have more variety in gimmick than wizard; frankly I believe those who think otherwise are only remembering the rounds they didn't cryo out of or shamble through in pain, while technomancer rounds - happening every day - do not have the benefit of being far enough in the past to go through this rose tinted lens.

I commissioned it to offer more possible gimmicks - the magic is far less... 'fluffed' for lack of a better word, and more easily manipulated to be magic, technology, or whatever else you want - you just need to roleplay it as such. Wizard, on the other hand, spawned with a spellbook, wizard robes, and a wizard hat - I assure you this did not lead to more varied or interesting gimmicks. I personally chose to commission this after two consecutive wizard rounds that amounted to people in wizard robes wordlessly causing trouble and teleporting away.

The values clearly need an adjustment, but I do not think this is grounds for "bring back a gamemode that has gone unmaintained for a year+ now" particularly given part of my justification for replacing it was the amount of legacy code that wizard had which lead to a number of bugs. For example; if combat is not viable due to instability, to change the values for how much stability they generate is a single line. You can do it yourself, right now, if you're reading this. 

I've not yet seen a quantified reason wizard is better in this thread, beyond technomancer being poorly balanced, which is much more easily resolved on its own than entirely replacing it once again. The complaints seem to be largely that it is an "insufferable and obnoxious" gamemode, which I don't really see how wizard changes.

I actually think loner would be a better replacement if we were replacing anything, due to having access to some traitor kit and thus inherently, in my opinion, being both more grounded and versatile than technomancer and especially wizard.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

I do not want to go back to the area of Gandalf the Color and Long John 9 the Space Wizard. If technomancer is bad it should be removed. The argument that there are "good wizard rounds," sometimes is the same argument that saddled us with AI malfunction for years.