Ais cant be traitors + New Gamemode

A traitor Ai sucks.

It has the same laws as a malfunctioning Ai, but none of the abilities.

Once it gets found out, all it can do is bolt the airlocks to its core and delay the inevitable.

For that reason I have created the following PR:

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5456

This prevents AIs from becoming traitors and adds a new gamemode that combines traitors and malfunctioning AI.

I hope that this will lead to some more creative antaging for both the malfunctioning AI and the traitors in that round

1. will this mean the normal traitor gamemode will not include AI ever?

2. Name of the new gamemode? (low priority obv)

3. besides the AI, what else will be different between traitor and traitor + AI?

[mention]Arrow768[/mention] will await your reply

1. will this mean the normal traitor gamemode will not include AI ever?

Correct, the Ai will not become a traitor in the traitor gamemode.

The new gamemode will be added to the secret rotation, therefore enabling a gamemode where both traitors and a malf AI exist

2. Name of the new gamemode? (low priority obv)

Corruption

3. besides the AI, what else will be different between traitor and traitor + AI?

There is no other difference. It is just Malf + Traitors.

I enjoy the occasional ai traitor round mainly because it lets me act in ways that my laws would otherwise prevent.

I don't necessarily need all the malf powers to have fun nor do I feel cheated when I die as AI traitor.

I feel like removing ai from traitor, auto traitor specifically, puts my odds of getting these chances much lower than before. On par with wizard and ninja.

If the goal is to get rid of traitor ai and replace it with malf, would it be possible to add malf to the auto traitor rotation?

I don’t really see a reason to remove traitor AIs. Not to mention that all this PR ultimately does is make antag AIs even more unlikely.

[...]Not to mention that all this PR ultimately does is make antag AIs even more unlikely.

That statement can not be made this way, as the probability for this gamemode to occur in the secret rotation depend on the probabilities set in the configuration file.

These probabilities can be tweaked by the administration (specifically the headmins)

Even the opposite can be true as this PR adds the ability to better better set the chance for a malfunctioning AI to occur (as the malfunctioning AI is no longer mixed into the traitor gamemode)

[...]Not to mention that all this PR ultimately does is make antag AIs even more unlikely.

 

That statement can not be made this way, as the probability for this gamemode to occur in the secret rotation depend on the probabilities set in the configuration file.

These probabilities can be tweaked by the administration (specifically the headmins)

Even the opposite can be true as this PR adds the ability to better better set the chance for a malfunctioning AI to occur (as the malfunctioning AI is no longer mixed into the traitor gamemode)

I guess the thing that worries me most is if AI is removed from auto-traitor, then it seems like only AI mains would get to experience the AI antag role. As it stands currently, you could join as AI after roundstart and still have a chance to turn traitor-AI.

Unlike wizard, for instance, where you don't have to tailor your occupation to be considered for the role, if you wanted to play as antag AI you would have to modify your occupation preferences in addition to fighting against RNG for both the AI slot and round type. In essence, I would have to consistently play as and get the AI slot over multiple rounds to have a chance at it.

I understand also that certain antag roles are restricted and can't be given to certain jobs. HoS is heavily restricted on almost all on-station antags I believe. But as HoS I still have the ability to opt-in to raider, merc, and other off-station antags, the same as everyone else. As I understand it, if you join the game as AI, you won't be considered for non-AI antag roles. Your antag options under the new changes will be MALF or bust.

If the reason these changes were implemented was simply because the traitor-AI is weak, then I would rather buff it slightly with simple QoL changes. For example, giving traitor AI access to the traitor comms channel. Working with other traitors during the round would increase the chances that you're not simply waiting for sec/engineering to break down your core doors.

If you really intend to remove the traitor-Ai role then I would at least implement what I suggested in my previous post and keep the AI in the autotraitor rotation, but as malf.

I guess the thing that worries me most is if AI is removed from auto-traitor, then it seems like only AI mains would get to experience the AI antag role.

Proooooooobably better for gameplay reasons, I suppose. I'd rather we have relatively experienced AI mains influence the round.

If you really intend to remove the traitor-Ai role then I would at least implement what I suggested in my previous post and keep the AI in the autotraitor rotation, but as malf.

Only if they're roundstart picked. I don't think even an AI main wants to be malf an hour into the round when they latejoined. It's a lot of catchup they need to do in order to be threatening to everyone else.

I guess the thing that worries me most is if AI is removed from auto-traitor, then it seems like only AI mains would get to experience the AI antag role. As it stands currently, you could join as AI after roundstart and still have a chance to turn traitor-AI.

Unlike wizard, for instance, where you don't have to tailor your occupation to be considered for the role, if you wanted to play as antag AI you would have to modify your occupation preferences in addition to fighting against RNG for both the AI slot and round type. In essence, I would have to consistently play as and get the AI slot over multiple rounds to have a chance at it.

I understand also that certain antag roles are restricted and can't be given to certain jobs. HoS is heavily restricted on almost all on-station antags I believe. But as HoS I still have the ability to opt-in to raider, merc, and other off-station antags, the same as everyone else. As I understand it, if you join the game as AI, you won't be considered for non-AI antag roles. Your antag options under the new changes will be MALF or bust.

The argument made here is not correct.

Antagonists that have the ANTAG_OVERRIDE_JOB flag are spawned in before the job controller hands out the assignments.

Therefore the job you have readied up for does not matter as long as you have the preference enabled.

Antagonists with the ANTAG_OVERRIDE_JOB flag include: Merc, Ninja, Raider, Wizard, Malf AI and a few others.

Meaning you do not need to ready up as AI to be considered as Malf AI -> All you have to do is turn on the preference.

I still hold that traitor AIs are perfectly functional antagonists. The AI is very powerful, and in conjunction with the chaos of other traitors (or indeed even in co-operation with them) can achieve much, even without all the abilities of a malf AI. Ergo, removing the AI from the possibility of traitor and auto-traitor is unnecessary and undesirable. Not to mention that even if traitor AIs were underspecced, wouldn't the more logical conclusion be to grant them specific traitor ability options?

I think traitor AIs work fine as is for reasons stated before by others. Removing them would simply stifle RP opportunities.

A new gamemode combining malf + traitor, however, sounds interesting. It increases the chances for an antag AI while also tempering it by not having them always be malf when they're antags. They're more of a team antagonist than a solo antagonist in traitor rounds.

I've also seen traitor AIs 'win' rounds. Emergency shuttle, people die, it survives, etc. They're not underpowered, and they're not overpowered.

Traitor AI doesn't need powers to be an antagonist. The addition of a new game mode will only make the possibility even more remote of it ever occurring in the first place.

I think traitor AIs work fine as is for reasons stated before by others. Removing them would simply stifle RP opportunities.

Or lackthereof, considering how much of a wet noodle a traitor AI is compared to that of a malf AI. Play a traitor AI as opposed to a malf one sometime and you'll see how only not having laws doesn't actually expand gameplay opportunities whatsoever. It's like comparing a guppy to a large trout, the large trout tends to contribute in more meaningful ways to its ecosystem than the ill-equipped guppy does.

Consistency in antagonist power dynamics is very important for an experience that seems to be so heavily reliant on antagonists to 'make things happen'. Malfunctioning AI types happen to 'make things happen' in the round to a far more interesting and impactful degree than a traitor AI does. A traitor AI is far more dependent on its borgs than what a malfunctioning AI is capable of doing by its lonesome.

I welcome this change, honestly, regardless of the standard canned counter-arguments I've seen against this change already.

I think traitor AIs work fine as is for reasons stated before by others. Removing them would simply stifle RP opportunities.

 

Or lackthereof, considering how much of a wet noodle a traitor AI is compared to that of a malf AI. Play a traitor AI as opposed to a malf one sometime and you'll see how only not having laws doesn't actually expand gameplay opportunities whatsoever. It's like comparing a guppy to a large trout, the large trout tends to contribute in more meaningful ways to its ecosystem than the ill-equipped guppy does.

Consistency in antagonist power dynamics is very important for an experience that seems to be so heavily reliant on antagonists to 'make things happen'. Malfunctioning AI types happen to 'make things happen' in the round to a far more interesting and impactful degree than a traitor AI does. A traitor AI is far more dependent on its borgs than what a malfunctioning AI is capable of doing by its lonesome.

I welcome this change, honestly, regardless of the standard canned counter-arguments I've seen against this change already.

AI is the single most powerful crew role. it is in no way a wet noodle. As fowl suggested, if you must do something, give it new abilities that better differentiate it from standard AI, not remove it entirely.

Comparing a traitor AI to a malf AI is like comparing a regular traitor to a fucking wizard. Should we remove traitors because they don't get fireball? The malf AI is powerful because it is alone. There are always other traitors along with the traitor AI.

Traitor AI does not even compare to a regular traitor nor an EI NATH'ing wizard.

They do not get special abilities besides the fact of being able to ignore their core laws which is not very impressive by itself. What a traitor AI can do is absolutely outshone by the amount of mechanics loaded into a malfunctioning AI's kit to be able to influence the round in far more numerous ways than a traitor AI can.

Traitor AIs cannot defend themselves without cyborgs. Malfunctioning AIs have the ability to research force fields to throw up at any given time that serve as obstacles and bullet sponges for the worst that could possibly happen. And that's not all they can do.

It doesn't matter what a traitor AI can do, it's just given antagonist status but no special abilities beyond that to sustain itself against the crew when it goes loud. The malf AI will always do it better. Can't tell you the amount of times where I was a traitor AI and I wished I was malf instead because of the various circumstances that can happen ingame.

It's more like comparing a dull butter knife to a claymore.

There is a sense of helplessness that is involved with playing Traitor AI, you don’t have anything like an uplink. Just your normal AI powers and a shitload of people willing to kill you if you step out of line

The malf AI will always do it better.

I think where I deviate from your thinking here is that I believe the traitor AI doesn't have to be as potent as malf.

We can go back and forth all day long comparing strengths and weaknesses of the various antags, but what I appreciate about autotraitor AI is the ability to RP outside of your laws and not having to have started the round as AI to be considered for that role.

Oh nooooo, you have to cause trouble ICly. Oof.

Tator AI is more along the lines of the big sneak. And people meta you less, in my own experience. The allure of tator AI is much subtle, akin to things as simply as helping another tator escape an unfavourable situation or turning a blind eye to somone getting dragged into maint to get the big esword.

PR was merged in, moving to complete Projects