Nerfing Parapen Stun

[BurgerBB]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5409

[Coalf]

Maybe it went unnoticed for a good reason?

I mean I get moving away from stuns but someone using a parapen in actual combat is quite rare? It's usually a stab-in-the-back weapon and its whole point is that the victim doesn't have the time to alert anyone of what happened.

[Bauser]

Can't wait to see how many rounds get shut down immediately from parapen victims miraculously having their first instinct upon feeling confused and dizzy to be saying over the radio "Oh man guys this sure is weird haha I was just standing here with my buddy Anne Taggart and then I started feeling confused and dizzy, wild"

If it drops to 4TC as discussed in the PR, I could begrudgingly support it, but it will still be a shame to see. Antagonists already suffer from 0 ability to enforce the storyline/scheme/plot whatever they have planned, and this nerf will just further ensure that it's virtually impossible to setup any cohesive kidnapping events without being exceptionally lucky.

[Coalf]

Here is my proposition:

No injection message.

Instant:

Stamina loss.

17 Second Mute.

3 second delay:

19 second confusion.

19 second dizziness.

7 second delay:

27 second sleep.

[ben10083]

Here is my proposition:

No injection message.

Instant:

Stamina loss.

17 Second Mute.

3 second delay:

19 second confusion.

19 second dizziness.

7 second delay:

27 second sleep.

 

I support this idea, if there were a message and a delay you are basically asking for people to bend the rules and screw over whoever uses it.

[Resilynn]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen the pen used for anything but kidnapping rp. It’s never used as a gank, which is the whole point of reducing stun based combat. It costs 6 telecrystals which is kind of a lot for a single use item.

-1, not that -1s seem to matter.

[IAmCrystalClear]

-1 This is primarily used for kidnapping. Understand that the moment you use this item, medical knows.

The oxyloss practically raises alarmbells in medical. It's single use. It's close range. It's blocked by gloves, blocked by masks, blocked by clothes. It's designed for a single purpose; to get the jump on someone without them being able to react.

This item is already balanced. If you're actually looking to reliably stun someone, use a dart gun. Use force gloves. Use wrestling books.

Furthermore, changing an entirely unused chemical for the purpose of nerfing a single one-use item seems a bit over the top. Zombie Powder requires carpotoxin. It's nigh impossible to get.

[BurgerBB]

I don't think any of you have an understanding of how an injection check works.

Parapen doesn't work against armor, only hardsuits and softsuits, which only protect ERT. You can inject security officers easily unless they're wearing a hardsuit, which they never do on station because muh powergame rules.

[Arrow768]

If you want to remove instant-stuns it has to go both ways.

Therefore I am not opposed to that change.

[Coalf]

Again, it perhaps wasn't adressed in the first place because there was never a real issue with it in the first place.

It seems like change for the sake of change.

It could be justified with as you stated "muh powergaming rules" but I don't really see a reason for it since it hasn't been abused in any recent memory?

The big offending issue of instant stun tools was mostly their overuse, flash, flashbangs both. Parapen on the other hand is rarely used and when it is, it is used for its intended effect. Silent takedown.

In all my admintime I have not seen/don't remember anyone using a parapen to murder unconcious people due to how easily bwoinkable that is and because you can't really RP with someone who is blacked out.

Again, I'd support my timing rework I posted up there if we're going to be adamant about adding it. Otherwise the parapen is just going to be ignored for the sake of using killy weapons instead of knocky-outy weapons.

[Bauser]

Has there been a single recorded incident of a paralysis pen being used in a combat capacity instead of for the stealthy incapacitation it's meant for

[Kaed]

Probably not, that's what I always use it for. I think you should leave chemicals and non combat equipment alone Burger

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

This id a bad idea. If i cant effectively stun someone stealthily then i will just have to assassinate them since it will no longer be safe to stun and kidnap.

[SampleTex]

Has there been a single recorded incident of a paralysis pen being used in a combat capacity instead of for the stealthy incapacitation it's meant for

Maybe twice, I was involved both times, and when it was used in combat both times it was used in a defensive way (one wasn't even really combat, it was sneaking up on a distracted officer). The first time I saw it I was a traitor, I stabbed a surgeon with it because they kept grabbing me and I was trying to flee. The other time (Burger was involved this time) me and a dionaea were going about mugging people. After I attempted to run away when the officer wanted to search my bag (to which burger then chased me into medical with a stun baton) my dionaea partner came up and stabbed him in the back with the parapen, saving an unconscious me from a pair of handcuffs and giving us an officer to hold hostage.

[Trazz666]

Well that explains the existence of this thread lol.

Anyways, -1 from me as well, even though we all know this isn't going to stop it.

[Rosetango]

-1. Seeing as I've never (personally) seen a parapen be used in combat, I don't see why we need to nerf it? If you take away the parapen, you take away one of the stealthier forms of attacking people. Honestly, I actually like being parapenned as a victim. It surprises me, reminds me to stay on my toes, and I've never had a para-pen result in a gank. Parapens are probably one of my favorite stealth "weapons" to use, because I'm not that good at being "robust." If taken away, it would force me (and others) to play a more potentially combat-oriented style, which in a high/heavy roleplay server, is probably the last thing you want. Most of my gimmicks intend to spur more RP and involve more RP than combat, and if I can help it, I try not to kill people unless it serves a purpose.

[Doc]

If you want to remove instant-stuns it has to go both ways.

 

No it doesn't. Nothing, ever, has to go "both ways". What it has to be is balanced, and that does NOT always mean "the same both ways". As has been stated by numerous people in the thread and even by admins, this isn't an issue that needs to be solved. It is balanced as is. I'll even tack on: I've never dealt with anyone abusing the para-pen for rule-breaking plays, that was not an obvious greytide. If this suddenly becomes a traitor epidemic, then maybe it will warrant a look, but it isn't, so it doesn't.

[DronzTheWolf]

I can't support this. The parapen is one of the few bastions of non-leathal weaponry that traitors have, and even worse, it is one of the better "Stun" weapons antags get. (Here's looking at you, culties.) So I have to say -1.

Parapen is a blessing to all capture/kidnap gimmicks and shouldn't be messed with.

[Arrow768]

One of the arguments was that the "insta-stun removes the rp, because it puts people out of the fight with no effort at all" with a few simmilar ones.

The issue is, that if you want to remove insta-stun mechanics, you cant just remove those that put you as a antag at a disadvantage.

You also have to remove those that are used by the antags, as the exact same arguments apply that were used to warrant the removal of the insta-stun mechanics of flashes and a few chemicals.

Yes, abductions will become more difficult and you might have to resort to alternative tactics to abduct someone.

But it is by far not a gamebreaker.

The parapen will still knock you out, it just wont be instantly.

And if you (as a traitor) are concerned about them screaming on the radio and giving away your position, then you can utilize a radio jammer or just point a gun at them.

Even the way tg does it would be an improvement over the current system. (Also note that if we do it like tg did it, then they wont be able to scream over the radio)

/tg/station's Sleepy Pen:
No injection message.
Instant:
	Stamina loss.
	17 Second Mute.

5 second delay: 
	19 second confusion.
	19 second dizziness.

10 second delay:
	20 second sleep.

[Coalf]

That's a flawed thought.

A flash had potentially unlimited amount of stuns, every single security officer and heads of staff had it(and robotics).

The parapen has 3 uses, is extremely obvious if used in public and you're sacrificing TC points for it which you could use for something else. To get it on station you rely on zombie-powder which relies on carps spawning, you being able to get them, grind them and extract the carp hurting juice.

Parapen is not overused.

Parapen has 3 uses.

Parapen can ONLY be obtained through the traitor menu.

There can't be an alternative if you've already removed all of the alternatives. This is just going to encourage people to stop using the parapen all-together and just stop doing these gimmick alltogether.

Note, this'll make the sleepy-ring which has a single injection completely fucking useless.

[Bauser]

Arrow, if the argument is that "insta-stun removes RP," then we should retain the insta-stun that demonstrably IMPROVES RP. The parapen is a kidnapping tool, not a gank one.

As an aside, I'm not even confident it always DOES have three uses, there have been multiple instances where I attempt to poke a second victim and nothing happens. Maybe this is related to armor (not RIG, just like security armor), but I'm positive I do not get 3 stings out of a parapen.

EDIT: We don't even have radio jammers in our antag loadout

[Butterrobber202]

Let’s not remove the instant stun, it’s one of the few reliable kidnapping tools we have left. The parapen versus flash/stunbaton argument does not add up.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Radio jammers are not in the antag loadout.

Parapen is fine.

[BurgerBB]

Has there been a single recorded incident of a paralysis pen being used in a combat capacity instead of for the stealthy incapacitation it's meant for

Maybe twice, I was involved both times, and when it was used in combat both times it was used in a defensive way (one wasn't even really combat, it was sneaking up on a distracted officer). The first time I saw it I was a traitor, I stabbed a surgeon with it because they kept grabbing me and I was trying to flee. The other time (Burger was involved this time) me and a dionaea were going about mugging people. After I attempted to run away when the officer wanted to search my bag (to which burger then chased me into medical with a stun baton) my dionaea partner came up and stabbed him in the back with the parapen, saving an unconscious me from a pair of handcuffs and giving us an officer to hold hostage.

 

Any tool, regardless of telecrystals spent, that allows you to stun people for an extended period of time so you could kidnap them for torture rp, is a ridiculous tool. And what happened there was everything wrong with Aurorastation antags. I would not complain if you actually did something creative. I straight up knew something was going to happen because you were so obvious, yet the most creative thing you could come up with was parapen me, threaten to eat me, and threaten to bomb implant me. I straight up asked you to kill me because you were so boring. I expected something decent but all I got was 2 people who didn't know what on earth they were doing, as proven by the fact that both of you did nothing with your gimmick.

Aurorastation antags have a serious lack of robustness, as proven by Rosetango's post. On other servers you'd actually had to make an effort to insta-stun people, which usually involves breaking into chemistry and mixing the ingredients to do it. If you actually went through the effort of doing something creative and didn't result to boring, depression RP, I wouldn't be complaining. I feel that most of the traitor uplink items are stupidly strong and the fact that they're easy to get isn't making antags focus on actual quality RP more as proven with the many anti-material rifle purchases, .357 purchases, parapen purchases, and of course, grenade box of any kind purchases.

[Resilynn]

I don’t understand what the development team doesn’t get about 3 pages of -1s, several coming from staff.

Listen to the community. If they don’t play, you don’t get a server.