Removal of Cloaks

[Snakebittenn]

I'm still confused as to when it was an IC issue. It wasn't even an OOC issue when I submitted the PR (the initial chance to block it), only when I tried giving Security them.

[LordFowl]

I would not be opposed to removing more than just cloaks from the loadout - it has become a bloated cesspool of ridiculous items like philosopher wigs and sombreros, but the cloak is in particular egregious. It's like everyone who works here just got off from a Game of Thrones convention. It's ridiculous.

[Butterrobber202]

I’m all for removing the crazy items in the loudout, but to stay on topic.

NT should absolutely have an enforced Uniform Code, with subsections for Xeno exemptions.

The cloaks are alittle much for our Future Western Setting.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Guest

[Hendricks]

I personally like cloaks, especially for Xeno characters, they can add a bit of personality say if someone likes to flourish capes and that, I don't think it's really that big of an issue, especially with clothing options that are available, I mean you could probably come up with reasons that every piece of clothing has some kind of hazard in the work environment that is space, I feel like it should be personal choice, though I'm not against a Corporate style employee clothes, I stick to the default Jumpsuit for my job then I add some layers and it's nice to have a coat that I can take on and off when I say go home or to work. I wouldn't mind an overhaul that would make it more strict since we work for like an evil mega corp. It would make everyone seen unified and it would make characters a but more special imo. But I'm happy with the way things are, I know some people like to nit pick on all the tiny details of what they don't like, for me it's just a game I like to go back to every now and again, see some familiar names and have a nice few rounds. The game and the people are what I come for, I don't really care whether they have a cloak or not. Style makes people unique and it's nice to see change. So I personally hope that cloaks don't get removed because it just adds another optional but still much appreciated chance to make some unique in some way, because screw normies. And screw health and safety standards when I can wear so much else that can prove a hazard to work.

[Snakebittenn]

I still want to know when these were an IC issue and why they weren't blocked in the original PR.

[Itanimulli]

I don't think I've ever seen someone in a cloak and not alreay immediately knew what department they come from.

Regardless, I guess I don't see why they were added to begin with. I can see wearing a jacket on your shoulders, but er.....where does.....the....whomade these cloaks ICly and why?

[Kaed]

I am unable to see this idea as anything other than several higher staff imposing their opinions on what sort of fun should be allowed in the game upon the general crowds. To me, I see akin to a crotchety group of old men, waving their canes at those darn kids with their flowy cloaks running around looking like they walked out of a game of thrones convention, oh what is this world coming to, new fangled fashions are so awful these days.

I admit, I come into this topic with an extremely heavy bias counter to the idea. I find capes to be pretty much the most wonderful that has been added to this server for a long time, adding a dash of flavor that I adore. As an unathi main, I imagine all my unathi characters feeling that this cold human installation is just a bit too chilly and being able to have a nice cloak to cover up with that still fits in with their department is a great way to add a personal touch of flavor to the characters. It sweeps behind them and feels grand and slighty imposing in a way that fits in my mind with the species mindset.

And then I come here, to this PR and feedback thread, and hear grumpy people calling for the removal of it and other things I like. People who, to me, seem fixated on making the server some kind of whitewashed monocultural thing, and scorn the existence cloaks and ponchos and sombreros of all things (which, incidentally, I have only ever seen worn by a single robot RD on any regular basis). I simply can't understand what mindset they come from that the very presence of non-western ethnic influence causes them them to have a collective pursing of lips and scowling in disapproval. I don't say this in a way to demean them here - I am serious in that I legitimately don't understand what is making them complain about this. The only thing I've seen in the loadout that makes me roll my eyes is the philosopher's wig, which looks so utterly stupid I have never seen a single person wear as more than a passing joke it in the years I played here, so it seems a non-issue.

The fact of the matter is that capes are cool. They look cool, they exist to be a display of fashion. You can call it outmoded and out of touch with a post-modern setting, but at the end of the day, we're playing a video game with pixelated aliens in it, and we do this to have fun. It's fun to make your character wear things that you like the look of. It's entirely possible to invent reasons why cloaks fit into the setting as much as you can scream for reasons why they don't. If you continue to embrace the idea that xeno species lore exists on this server, you can't shut your eyes and scream that it shouldn't influence the in-game fashions this way.

You might as well remove the entire loadout system from the game if you want to enforce a specific look on people, because it's such a complicated and enormous thing that has such a huge impact on the appearance of in-game characters. Trimming things out of it based on personal opinions is largely an act of sophistry and forcing your will on other people who might be enjoying the options we have now. Granted, I would probably lose all will to to continue playing on this server if you did, but at least you'd have your strict brand image that you apparently find so desirous.

I also see a few arguments about cloaks not making sense around machinery. The number of jobs on station that work around active machinery are very small (i.e. when is an Head of Personnel ever going to be working with active machines?) If you really want to enforce that there is a place for cloaks, then adding code that punishes you for acting stupid around machinery, like the old code that made floor-length-braids get ripped off, is a better option than removing them all to protect from a low-impact scenario.

[Asheram]

And then I come here, to this PR and feedback thread, and hear grumpy people calling for the removal of it and other things I like. People who, to me, seem fixated on making the server some kind of whitewashed monocultural thing, and scorn the existence cloaks and ponchos and sombreros of all things (which, incidentally, I have only ever seen worn by a single robot RD on any regular basis). I simply can't understand what mindset they come from that the very presence of non-western ethnic influence causes them them to have a collective pursing of lips and scowling in disapproval. I don't say this in a way to demean them here - I am serious in that I legitimately don't understand what is making them complain about this. The only thing I've seen in the loadout that makes me roll my eyes is the philosopher's wig, which looks so utterly stupid I have never seen a single person wear as more than a passing joke it in the years I played here, so it seems a non-issue.

I'll just address this directly.

The server is a whitewashed monocultural thing. It's a Corporate Setting.

Aurora isn't Babylon 5, Deep Space 9 or any similar multi-cultural trading station. We're Weyland-Yutani and it's time we started looking the part.

Aurora is supposed to be a research and mining station operated by professionals and it's high time that folk started to look the part, foremost by implementing a dress code that prohibits non-corporate clothing during worktime.

[Kaed]

The server is a whitewashed monocultural thing. It's a Corporate Setting.

Aurora isn't Babylon 5, Deep Space 9 or any similar multi-cultural trading station. We're Weyland-Yutani and it's time we started looking the part.

Aurora is supposed to be a research and mining station operated by professionals and it's high time that folk started to look the part, foremost by implementing a dress code that prohibits non-corporate clothing during worktime.

 

*waves hand dismissively*

This is a conscious choice on your part to assume this is the way it should be. I can only speak from a US standpoint, since I live there, but corporations even today have 'business casual' dress codes and there has been a gradual relaxation on general up-tightness in US culture over the last few decades. Hundreds of years in the future when we have FTL drives, things could be even more different.

There is literally no reason at all why we have to cling to a specific (centuries old, at the time of the setting) ideal of joyless uniformity in what amounts to an isolated live-in facility that has a fairly large and sprawling setup and a very private guest list. Sure, wearing a hot pink shirt to work is a bit silly. But wearing a cape that still matches your department uniform color? That's not such a big deal. Or it doesn't have to be, unless you force it to.

So don't try and justify this as the way it is supposed to be. It's just a group of people here who want to enforce a certain corporate culture of their choice on the server , when what we have right now is pretty much business casual, with multiple outfit choices for many of the departments even without the loadout options. I'm not sure why a more stiff-necked outlook on clothing choices is going to improve the server's level of fun, myself.

That being said, I suppose moving them to the xeno loadout wouldn't be such a bad thing, given that I mostly see my unathi wearing them.

[Itanimulli]

Methinks this will just end up another reason for sec to utterly kill a gimmick the moment they see someone in a uniform that isn't exactly like all the other uniforms.

This method of thinking is counter-intuitive and ruins any chance for antagonists to do anything but immediately go loud, because the moment someone brings up regulations it's all over. How can you explain why you've got a brown uniform when you're supposed to have a workman's uniform? How can Nikit wear his trademark purple labcoat when the rules'd now enforce white labcoats only?

The captain would also be restricted to these regs. No more chenogsams for Himeri Kawa.....kawa....something. Sorry. Formal uniform only. No exceptions, because people wanted to limit fun. Sorry, can't stand behind this.

The server is a whitewashed monocultural thing. It's a Corporate Setting.

Aurora isn't Babylon 5, Deep Space 9 or any similar multi-cultural trading station. We're Weyland-Yutani and it's time we started looking the part.

Aurora is supposed to be a research and mining station operated by professionals and it's high time that folk started to look the part, foremost by implementing a dress code that prohibits non-corporate clothing during worktime.

 

Haha. No. I don't know if you've taken the time to look at lore, or any of the canon events that exist, or ever just bothered to talk to someone playing chaplain, but the station is very, very multicultural, and that's the draw of Aurora in the first place. Multiple species in one spot. Multiple stories all converging on one place of work. We whitelist according to these cultures, according to this fact. If we were as strict as you say, half the taj on this station would be out of jobs, no guwan would work here, and it'd all be humans and IPCs (if that, even) walking around in mundane circles. We're not Weyland-Yutani, we're NT, and you better believe NT cashes in on absolutely everything it can. This has become less about the defense of cloaks and more about people deciding the station is something it isn't. It's a business casual melting pot. We have a Bar and a Chaplain, for crying out loud.

[Resilynn]

We also have: a library with an erotica section. A stage and a bunch of costumes in a free bar available to all crew members. A holodeck with mostly recreational settings. The option to have neon hair. A swimming pool.

People like cloaks. I don’t even personally wear cloaks, but, people like them. Fashion is arbitrary, 400 years ago pants hadn’t been invented and we all wore skirts and tights. All kinds of socially acceptable business attire makes no sense these days (ties, high heels), but it’s the fashion so as long as it doesn’t get in the way of your work, it’s allowed, even encouraged. The cloaks are departmental and branded already.

I’m not seeing a reason to remove them beyond “I think they’re stupid.”

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The snide remarks and insults from some posters is blowing my mind. These are cloaks... they're one article of clothing...

I'm indifferent on this now and have no opinion on their removal or staying. I said my piece; please stop pinging me to "make battle" against people in this thread. Not interested anymore

[Skull132]

Let's revive this shit in the hopes of me not being called a nazi. And I would implore every last one of you to actually read this, before speaking.

I do not care about capes and cloaks and whatever the shit else that xeno's or even humans wear. That stuff is fine, go nuts. This PR and suggestion is specifically to address clothing worn by and issued to NT personnel. I want to emphasize this, because apparently there's been problems in understanding this.

And the main issue I have with this is that it does not fit nor does it compliment the main element of NT's fashion: the jumpsuit. The issue is that simple, really. And on this simple predicament is my point set up. We should try to keep NT's style consistent, because, at the end of the day, we are here to further the perspective that we are some sort of corporate environment somewhere. Ergo, muh immersions.

And as far as I'm concerned, I have yet to see any reason for not removing them beyond:

• Fun. Which is subjective and IMO secondary to immersion when addressing such an, ultimately trivial point.
• Muh xeno love. NT won't give a fuck for one, and for two, giving special clothing to a certain subset of staff goes against most principles of corporate clothing.

[CampinKiller]

Yes, please remove. They look dumb and unprofessional

[Snakebittenn]

1 hour ago, Skull132 said:

Let's revive this shit in the hopes of me not being called a nazi. And I would implore every last one of you to actually read this, before speaking.

I do not care about capes and cloaks and whatever the shit else that xeno's or even humans wear. That stuff is fine, go nuts. This PR and suggestion is specifically to address clothing worn by and issued to NT personnel. I want to emphasize this, because apparently there's been problems in understanding this.

And the main issue I have with this is that it does not fit nor does it compliment the main element of NT's fashion: the jumpsuit. The issue is that simple, really. And on this simple predicament is my point set up. We should try to keep NT's style consistent, because, at the end of the day, we are here to further the perspective that we are some sort of corporate environment somewhere. Ergo, muh immersions.

And as far as I'm concerned, I have yet to see any reason for not removing them beyond:

• Fun. Which is subjective and IMO secondary to immersion when addressing such an, ultimately trivial point.
• Muh xeno love. NT won't give a fuck for one, and for two, giving special clothing to a certain subset of staff goes against most principles of corporate clothing.

can we remove the NT branding from them, then.

[Scheveningen]

1 hour ago, Skull132 said:

Let's revive this shit in the hopes of me not being called a nazi. And I would implore every last one of you to actually read this, before speaking.

I do not care about capes and cloaks and whatever the shit else that xeno's or even humans wear. That stuff is fine, go nuts. This PR and suggestion is specifically to address clothing worn by and issued to NT personnel. I want to emphasize this, because apparently there's been problems in understanding this.

And the main issue I have with this is that it does not fit nor does it compliment the main element of NT's fashion: the jumpsuit. The issue is that simple, really. And on this simple predicament is my point set up. We should try to keep NT's style consistent, because, at the end of the day, we are here to further the perspective that we are some sort of corporate environment somewhere. Ergo, muh immersions.

And as far as I'm concerned, I have yet to see any reason for not removing them beyond:

• Fun. Which is subjective and IMO secondary to immersion when addressing such an, ultimately trivial point.
• Muh xeno love. NT won't give a fuck for one, and for two, giving special clothing to a certain subset of staff goes against most principles of corporate clothing.

There's another concern which is how certain jobs (HOS, RD, HOP, captain, most glaring examples) have variations of the standard jumpsuit, whether it is simply just a jumpskirt variation for RD/HOP/captain or something as extreme as the HOS having a few jumpsuit variations quite distinct from one another, in addition to either being able to wear a vest or an armored trenchcoat.

And since that's been a thing for as long as most of us can remember in terms of Aurora's history (blue sec, really), we're basically been breaking the rule on uniformity for a pretty long time. To the point where I think reversing all of that work just to remove potential variations of what is considered to be an identifiable uniform to a department is potentially a pointless endeavor (two parts pointless, really, rendering the initial effort pointless and any other cosmetic item that follows a similar example of it being integrated into the game because it's fun aesthetic stuff), because removing cloaks ends up being step 1 of removing all 'optional' department-oriented fashion that could compliment the standard uniforms.

Essentially, people will use this as an excuse to remove all other fashion items from the workplace to further denigrate any concept of individual style. As a very massive megacorporation, you would think NanoTrasen would enforce uniform guidelines only on certain components of the company's hierarchy. I think it's a counter-intuitive way to go about things to decide everyone who isn't a security officer must also obey the same boring regulations because "muh immersion" was brought up, despite that any one person's sense of immersion will differ from another person's.

 

[Skull132]

10 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

There's another concern which is how certain jobs (HOS, RD, HOP, captain, most glaring examples) have variations of the standard jumpsuit, whether it is simply just a jumpskirt variation for RD/HOP/captain or something as extreme as the HOS having a few jumpsuit variations quite distinct from one another, in addition to either being able to wear a vest or an armored trenchcoat.

And since that's been a thing for as long as most of us can remember in terms of Aurora's history (blue sec, really), we're basically been breaking the rule on uniformity for a pretty long time. To the point where I think reversing all of that work just to remove potential variations of what is considered to be an identifiable uniform to a department is potentially a pointless endeavor (two parts pointless, really, rendering the initial effort pointless and any other cosmetic item that follows a similar example of it being integrated into the game because it's fun aesthetic stuff), because removing cloaks ends up being step 1 of removing all 'optional' department-oriented fashion that could compliment the standard uniforms.

Essentially, people will use this as an excuse to remove all other fashion items from the workplace to further denigrate any concept of individual style. As a very massive megacorporation, you would think NanoTrasen would enforce uniform guidelines only on certain components of the company's hierarchy. I think it's a counter-intuitive way to go about things to decide everyone who isn't a security officer must also obey the same boring regulations because "muh immersion" was brought up, despite that any one person's sense of immersion will differ from another person's.

 

As I stated a few times, this is a matter of degrees. Cloaks being a higher degree violation against this principle than say, different flavours of jumpsuit. So I do not believe your imagine slipper slope will manifest itself in any meaningful way. Not unless we choose to go with option Z, being to consolidate all of NT's clothing. But even then, variation would exist, because NT is a relatively massive corporation. But there'd be common traits to them.

[Scheveningen]

10 hours ago, Skull132 said:

So I do not believe your imagine slipper slope will manifest itself in any meaningful way.

That is until the forums are once again dead set on the next 'fashion revert' PR with one side trying to beat it into the opposition that 'violations of the aforementioned viewpoint' cannot be established in any meaningful objective metric and is based around people's opinion in how the game should be developed, and the other side colorfully restating how important setting precedent is.

Precedent is important, is it not? The concept that if something changes, it's going to be chased after as the new norm?

Reject that it'll happen all you like, but that'd also be ignoring how the community's development has operated for 4 or so years now.

Merry Christmas.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Scheveningen

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

All we need to do is put cloaks in another menu and make it clear theyre not nt issued, but being worn by individual outfits. Its not part of the uniform. 

 

Id day put them in xenowesr but the current cloaks are ugly. Ill see about better looking ones.

[Skull132]

27 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

All we need to do is put cloaks in another menu and make it clear theyre not nt issued, but being worn by individual outfits. Its not part of the uniform. 

 

Id day put them in xenowesr but the current cloaks are ugly. Ill see about better looking ones.

We can merge the current PR and redo them once you find better sprites. Easy.

 

2 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

That is until the forums are once again dead set on the next 'fashion revert' PR with one side trying to beat it into the opposition that 'violations of the aforementioned viewpoint' cannot be established in any meaningful objective metric and is based around people's opinion in how the game should be developed, and the other side colorfully restating how important setting precedent is.

Precedent is important, is it not? The concept that if something changes, it's going to be chased after as the new norm?

Reject that it'll happen all you like, but that'd also be ignoring how the community's development has operated for 4 or so years now.

Merry Christmas.

Yes, unfortunately most design decisions are stuck ultimately at the hand of myself and Arrow. And the occasional Jackboob.

Though I do not understand what precedence you're referring to. The precedence of us realizing a mistake was made and a correction being issued? I'm pretty sure I needed to very loudly and clearly point out that, hey, this is actually something we do, back when the whole dev cycle debacle was going on half a year and more ago. And now it's a surprise and suddenly erroneous? Give me a break. This is business as usual, minus the shitfest over an ultimately minor issue.

[Scheveningen]

It does seem like a surprise and suddenly erroneous! And I have reasons to think that way.

The situation so far is that we got here from a string of smaller contributions that added up to a larger foundation of belief that being able to customize one's character and their aesthetic helped certain character concepts stick out from others. This facilitates a feeling that no two characters are the same at all especially given the wide variance of customization options.

We've had all these items added up over time and a "Yes" written off on them by either yourself or Arrow when merged into the live state of the game, and roughly all for the same reason: to add a larger variance of aesthetic items for characters to wear and eventually have that aesthetic be defined by it. Play enough time and you'll start to recognize some character's preferred outfit(s) and it becomes very easy to pick any one of them out in a crowd of spessmen without having to mouse over them and Shift-click.

When cloaks were added, there was absolutely no difference between their implementation and something like the even more ostentatious items that would violate uniform, such as sundresses or even the evening gowns in the loadout now.

Despite this, cloaks were picked out among the myriad of items that could much more easily be viewed as "offensive", and yet were still labelled as equally offensive.

The perception that "this is too much" only seems to be so because of the already massive variance of loadout items that exist right now, not because of cloaks being the defining nail in the coffin when we address this issue.

Given that concepts of fashion and aesthetic evolve over time, I can only imagine that our loadout item options will likely expand into potentially 500 to 600 individual items by the end of next year if we keep going this route. Which I think is fine, ultimately, short of a few issues such as whether or not additional loadout items later down the line are merely cosmetic or they offer mechanical advantages. But I really do not think cloaks are so bad as, say, if someone were to implement something as genuinely distasteful as those weird leather-and-spike suits as you see in FNV's Gomorrah. Because I would think that is the line one should draw against "offensive attire" being as part of the loadout for when your character goes to work like any other.

It just seems strange to look at this one instance where fashion items were implemented and decide "this, among all others, was a mistake" while glossing over the 'possible offensiveness' that other items likely possess in larger leaps and bounds than cloaks do by themselves. It seems more likely that there's specific bias in that decision, because there's no reasonable explanation why only cloaks are being gone after now and nothing else was.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Scheveningen

[Skull132]

8 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

It does seem like a surprise and suddenly erroneous! And I have reasons to think that way.

The situation so far is that we got here from a string of smaller contributions that added up to a larger foundation of belief that being able to customize one's character and their aesthetic helped certain character concepts stick out from others. This facilitates a feeling that no two characters are the same at all especially given the wide variance of customization options.

And this PR does nothing against this concept and idea. It is not a paradigm shift. To quote myself:

On 24/12/2018 at 02:27, Skull132 said:

I do not care about capes and cloaks and whatever the shit else that xeno's or even humans wear. That stuff is fine, go nuts. This PR and suggestion is specifically to address clothing worn by and issued to NT personnel.

At absolute best, you can argue this as applying potentially stricter guidelines on what gets to pass for NT wear. But see my argument of degrees about that. If I wanted to deal with NT fashion fully, I would myself initiate a full review of custom loadout. And yet I am not doing that. So go figure.

13 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

When cloaks were added, there was absolutely no difference between their implementation and something like the even more ostentatious items that would violate uniform, such as sundresses or even the evening gowns in the loadout now.

Congratulations. You've not read my reasons for removing them. I advise you do, for I am done rephrasing myself. This fact is further highlighted by the following:

13 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Despite this, cloaks were picked out among the myriad of items that could much more easily be viewed as "offensive", and yet were still labelled as equally offensive.

My use of the term offensive was to describe their visual role in an outfit. A cloak is a predominate piece of clothing. It tends to gather a large amount of visual attention. Adds visual weight. Is offensive, is visually attention grabbing and aggressive. Because hey, out of the pieces of accessories issued by NT, they are. Again. This is NT clothing specifically. As you can see from my other replies, if other factions want to use them, then I honestly don't give a shit as long as they are a part of a somewhat coherent theme, like Dominia.

[Scheveningen]

Yes, the PR is indeed exactly within the paradigm shift that I described in what it intends. Wholesale removal from general acquisition, because you think it's offensive.

The PR in question wants to remove them from the loadout entirely (and ergo from the game, because it is the only known place to find them in). Short of possessing admin perms, the PR outright intends to remove them from being acquired entirely, which may as well be removed from the game in terms of how it is relevant to us, the players, without the comfy nature of having the spawn function.

Such as Kaed has already said here in the PR:
https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5504#issuecomment-436709813

This is not like the other suggestions which have asked for a compromise in the form of, "Just keep the colors but de-brand them from being a uniform piece", "Limit it to the xenowear format", etc. As is, the proposition has not changed in terms of what the PR is currently modelled to do, and it is what I am ultimately arguing against. This is what I am opposed to because the current method of dealing with the matter is removing them instead of fixing it.

Until the PR changes its direction (and it hasn't been updated still based off of what you have said or what Arrow has said), I won't stop criticizing what it intends to do. It has not changed since it was first posted, so my arguments will remain much of the same. As-is the PR is not suitable and essentially hasn't taken into account any feedback made yet. It's been over a month, so either you're going to let it sit for yet another month for this to be discussed again or you'll merge it as the majority of people that enjoyed wearing cloaks have to groan because you decided your subjective opinion on what you think uniformity is ultimately more important than what most people have already suggested would be a better compromise.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Scheveningen

[Skull132]

Lemme pull this a step back. You're arguing nonsense, and here's why. Earlier you were fearing the slippery slope. To which my reply was that we're only intending to touch matters which are more egregious than the rest. Like NT cloaks, we have explained why we believe them to be egregious enough, ergo, off they go. I said this in my last two posts: that, at present, this is a singular removal due to the content being the most egregious under the given circumstance and exceeding what we consider "the line". And now you're again arguing over this specific PR? What sense is there to this?

As for compromise. Allow me to give you perspective:

There are Vaurca and Tajaran cloaks in-game, which are not slated for removal.

And I know that Jackboot either has better sprites or has better sprites in the works for the human cloaks. However, since I don't necessarily do lore, I am going to wait for them to actually gather that stuff and submit more cloaks for issuance on the behalf of the other factions and whatever else. Meaning, this quandary will be solved at some point.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Theyre on my laptop and im out doing christmas stuff  ill bring them here in a bit

 

Your posts are super long and honestly i havent read them but i think skull is fine with what i have planned per our talk