Removal of Cloaks

[Arrow768]

Over the course of a few months multiple clothing options have been added to the loadout.

The large majority of those loadout options is something that the average person wears or brings to their workplace.

However, at a certain point you have to ask yourself: "when is it to much" ?

For me that point was reached, when we added yet another cloak with a questionable description to a department that already has a very wide array of loadout options.

The question is, would you bring a piece of clothing to your indoor-workplace that is designed to protect you from the effects of the elements and wear it constantly while inside of the station ?

Usually, the answer is no. It would get pretty warm pretty fast, especially if you have to perform exhausting tasks.

Considering that we have a very large number of loadout options (~200+ after a very rough estimate) some of which can even be further customized I decided (after a quick discussion with Skull) to go the simple way of just removing them from the loadout, instead of developing a system that takes into account the body temperature, insulation of the suit and environmental temperature to calculate if the body temperature of a person should be increased and a stamina penality / increased hydration loss should occur.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5504

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Will it be possible to move them to xeno loadout? There are cultures that wear cloaks as part of their fashion and a benefit of tau ceti is we can see the blend of cultures and their appropriation by nanotrasen.

[Doxxmedearly]

Over the course of a few months multiple clothing options have been added to the loadout.

The large majority of those loadout options is something that the average person wears or brings to their workplace.

You better believe if my workplace said "Hey we're selling cloaks, colored by your department, that you can wear to work!" I'd be doing that.

 

The question is, would you bring a piece of clothing to your indoor-workplace that is designed to protect you from the effects of the elements and wear it constantly while inside of the station ? Usually, the answer is no. It would get pretty warm pretty fast, especially if you have to perform exhausting tasks.

So then will you be removing winter jackets? They do the same, and have been in the loadout for quite some time now.

I feel like the presented reasoning is flimsy, given the amount of jackets and outdoor wear that have always been present in the loadout.

[Snakebittenn]

As stated before, with the grace of one of Jackboot's ideas, I have offered to place an NT logo on the cloaks, and respecify them as something NanoTrasen has intentionally been selling in order to please workers from said cultures that would be wearing cloaks. Also, the Security cloak description is, yes, humor. It is a joke.

Also, the cloaks are not a perfect seal. They open in the front. They do not hang tightly around the body. As someone who habitually wears jackets indoors (ask anyone i knew in high school, it's everyday bro), these would be not uncomfortable in a two-hour period.

[Skull132]

As stated before, with the grace of one of Jackboot's ideas, I have offered to place an NT logo on the cloaks, and respecify them as something NanoTrasen has intentionally been selling in order to please workers from said cultures that would be wearing cloaks. Also, the Security cloak description is, yes, humor. It is a joke.

 

Over the course of a few months multiple clothing options have been added to the loadout.

The large majority of those loadout options is something that the average person wears or brings to their workplace.

You better believe if my workplace said "Hey we're selling cloaks, colored by your department, that you can wear to work!" I'd be doing that.

 

The problem with this is, a company image and culture is a bit more than just a colour scheme. Uniform and uniformity of uniforms is an incredibly important part of a company's image. And even international companies will generally try to represent one cultural image in how they dress. Or, at the very least, in one locale. So no, it is not really unreasonable to expect that something as flashy and non-fitting as cloaks would be left to the wayside. Kaed said that we're trying to pigeonhole the matter of NT fashion, and guess what, we are. Since it has to be pigeonholed within some reasonable limit.

At present, the general image represented by NT has been that of a futuristic western look. Jumpsuits, maybe some currently conventional stuff, etcetera. A cloak, as proposed by us, does not befit that style. Even if it potentially did, it's a specific enough element to where absolutely everyone should be wearing one, if NT was wearing them (it's a highly distinguishable piece of garment). And the tastefulness of the piece is also questionable.

There's also the fact that we've been adding fashion stuff almost every single update. So something like this was bound to happen once we ran out of conventional pieces of fashion to implement. Eventually this machine would blow by outstretching itself. [mention]Senpai Jackboot[/mention] might also be interested in gathering his lore people and going over every piece of NT clothing to establish a specific look and style (and note that style is more than just colour and a logo). Which would effectively solve the same issue.

[Snakebittenn]

But it is not devs who decide the image of NT. It is us, indeed. And it is easy for us, as lore, to agree 'we cloaks.'

Also, Tau Ceti is a melting pot. It'd be a waste for NT to not capitalize off other cultures.

[Skull132]

But it is not devs who decide the image of NT. It is us, indeed. And it is easy for us, as lore, to agree 'we cloaks.'

Also, Tau Ceti is a melting pot. It'd be a waste for NT to not capitalize off other cultures.

 

A sublime tool a company has in marketing is the creation of a brand. A brand's elements are colour, patterns, logos, clothing, visual style. Having extremely culturally varied pieces of clothing completely removes any chance of having a unified clothing look and visual style, it may also disturb pattern presentation. This is why "we cloaks" and the melting pot thing do not work too well. It is in fact detrimental to the brand of NT to carry way too many unique looks and styles within its wardrobe.

[VTCobaltblood]

If the excuse for cloaks is NT profiting off other cultures, why do humans have them in their loadout? I don't mind cultures that actually normally wear cloaks having them in their loadouts, but this is too outlandish for humans, at least. If cloaks are supposed to be Cool, why not actually make them Cool by having them as a premium item in a clothing vendor, or a random find in maintenance/warehouse/other random spawns, or purchaseable in cargo, instead of them just being available to anyone?

I'm not in favor of removing rule of funny/rule of cool clothing completely - I just think that it should be accessible by other means than just spawning with them, to further enforce the funniness/coolness. not to mention that seeing the loadout flooded with them makes me grit my teeth everytime

[Resilynn]

If you take my skrell’s cloak away, leaving my poor baby raised in a tropical setting with no jacket, I’ll riot.

If players like a thing players should have access to a thing. It’s as simple as that.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I can understand [mention]Skull132[/mention] when he says NT relies on a brand. The cloaks are, as he said, a very distinct look. They're bold. They're iconic.

This element is why I had suggested that they be branded with the NT logo. We are at the point where in our fiction we can easily say the marketing philosophy of branding has adapted in that NT's brand is that which it finds marketable. NTs brand can be malleable and change depending on where the location is. How NT markets itself on Adhomai, and how it markets itself on Moghes, are different from how it markets itself on Earth or New Ankara. Tau Ceti is the system where all of these brand images come together.

The cloaks being available in the xeno loadout (with the addition of a logo) will allow us to retain them for the cultures where it is aesthetically appropriate, as well as showing the different brands coming together.

[Resilynn]

If players like a thing players should have access to a thing. It’s as simple as that.

 

I like shotguns with incendiary rounds. Plz add them to loadout since i main sci and cant get them.

 

One of these is a gameplay balance issue, the other is purely aesthetic. Nice false equivalency though friendo.

[Asheram]

If players like a thing players should have access to a thing. It’s as simple as that.

 

I like shotguns with incendiary rounds. Plz add them to loadout since i main sci and cant get them.

 

One of these is a gameplay balance issue, the other is purely aesthetic. Nice false equivalency though friendo.

Not quite. It's a question of NT workspace regulations.

Sure, folk might own cloaks, tutus, shotguns, spears. And it might be part of their culture and what they use in their time off, but the real question is if it's appropriate to have and use them at work.

I'm all for folk wearing what they'd like, but perhaps it's time to implement a proper NT dress code.

Edit Tldr: we do have uniforms for a reason.

[furrycactus]

If cloaks are getting the can for being too "unrealistic", then are we canning the god awful ponchos and sombrero? I'd argue those are far more absurd than a few department coloured cloaks.

[VTCobaltblood]

If cloaks are getting the can for being too "unrealistic", then are we canning the god awful ponchos and sombrero? I'd argue those are far more absurd than a few department coloured cloaks.

 

Plz yes

[VTCobaltblood]

If players like a thing players should have access to a thing. It’s as simple as that.

 

I like shotguns with incendiary rounds. Plz add them to loadout since i main sci and cant get them.

 

One of these is a gameplay balance issue, the other is purely aesthetic. Nice false equivalency though friendo.

 

I like my character running around naked, and this is purely aesthetic. Why can't I let my character run around naked?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

If cloaks are getting the can for being too "unrealistic", then are we canning the god awful ponchos and sombrero? I'd argue those are far more absurd than a few department coloured cloaks.

 

The poncho is not absurd. We are a cosmopolitan area and our fashion is not and should not be modelled after the Californian urbanite.

[Conspiir]

Cloaks for me are a very grey area. They're loose and flowy (not close to the body like a winter coat or a poncho). They can be worn on the outside of voidsuits and RIGS. They can, occasionally, not really match the motif of the department (service cloak is green. That only matches gardeners. And why is the mining one such an intense purple?).

The main issues I have with cloaks is:

[*]To me, it really seems like it would be a workplace hazard in the same situations long hair might be. You don't want to be operating machinery in these, you don't want to be near open flame in these.

[*]They'd probably be uncomfortable if you're doing manual labor. Constantly brushing them back from your arms when you bend over? Adjusting them when they end up skewed? Heating up from the blanket you have over your shoulders, probably.

[*]Why can they be worn over RIGs and other suits? That is so dangerous. What if a piece gets caught while you're swinging a pickaxe? If you're going to set solars why do you need to wear your cloak?

[furrycactus]

If cloaks are getting the can for being too "unrealistic", then are we canning the god awful ponchos and sombrero? I'd argue those are far more absurd than a few department coloured cloaks.

 

The poncho is not absurd. We are a cosmopolitan area and our fashion is not and should not be modelled after the Californian urbanite.

 

I apologise, I should've clarified I was being sarcastic. I'm wholly against the cloaks being removed. But if people are going to point the finger that relatively uniform abiding clothes, less uniform abiding ones should perhaps be looked at first instead.

[Resilynn]

I like shotguns with incendiary rounds. Plz add them to loadout since i main sci and cant get them.

 

One of these is a gameplay balance issue, the other is purely aesthetic. Nice false equivalency though friendo.

 

I like my character running around naked, and this is purely aesthetic. Why can't I let my character run around naked?

 

One of these is a breach of regulation, the other is purely aesthetic. Continuing with the excellent use of false equivilancy, keep it up.

[Scheveningen]

However, at a certain point you have to ask yourself: "when is it to much" ?

For me that point was reached, when we added yet another cloak with a questionable description to a department that already has a very wide array of loadout options.

 

It wasn't too much when we asked for more loadout points to add more stuff.

It wasn't too much when a PR got setup for peacoats and all of the 200 of custom items that exist right now.

It wasn't too much when most of the clothing items that exist right now have modular coloring options to dye in any shade or hue.

According to the head devs, cloaks that blend incredibly well with standard uniforms became far too much, apparently.

So anyway, this is a stupid PR. It will get passed through anyway seeing as how two of the head developers already unanimously agree with the same sentiment that they should remove cloaks from the loadout for reasons that are vague and unclear as per staff protocol, but let's break this down anyway;

 

The question is, would you bring a piece of clothing to your indoor-workplace that is designed to protect you from the effects of the elements and wear it constantly while inside of the station ?

Usually, the answer is no. It would get pretty warm pretty fast, especially if you have to perform exhausting tasks.

 

Totally irrelevant, as the indoor workplace has a stable temperature of 30C. That's 86 degrees for Americans, and considering the absence of humidity, it leads to a very cool workplace.

Here's a better question, why do women wear high heels and peacoats in the summer? Clearly putting on another layer during the summer is unreasonable by the standards of a couple turbonerds on the internet, so why do women do it anyway? Oh right, AESTHETIC. Because they choose to, and they think they LOOK GOOD in it. In this case: It's neat, it's eye-catching, it makes the game have a bit of color and each character also possess that invariable amount of diversity that makes interacting with one another just a tad more interesting.

Is the corporation arbitrarily going to ban certain stylistic liberties being taken with the uniform without breaking regulations? On higher alert levels than code green you can be damn sure that engineer wearing a cloak, cowboy hat and their standard issue jumpsuit is going to shed the unnecessary decals and don a proper voidsuit when it's needed. The same applies to virtually everyone else that is affected by uniform regulation.

We have heads of staff to enforce uniform regulation. Maybe consult with CCIA regarding the supposed """problematic nature""" (I put that many quotation marks because I am genuinely laughing that this is one of the issues is dev team is choosing to target as of late) of cloaks?

 

Considering that we have a very large number of loadout options (~200+ after a very rough estimate) some of which can even be further customized I decided (after a quick discussion with Skull) to go the simple way of just removing them from the loadout, instead of developing a system that takes into account the body temperature, insulation of the suit and environmental temperature to calculate if the body temperature of a person should be increased and a stamina penality / increased hydration loss should occur.

 

Lemme break this down for ya.

"Rather than resolving this the proper way in ensuring there's smaller, stacking consequences of piling on additional cosmetic items onto your character's person, we decided to remove 1 out of 200 custom loadout options because we can't be arsed to develop a system right now."

:clap: Clap emoji. It's way easier to remove stuff that bugs you rather than attempting to resolve the real problems, if character styles can be considered problematic all of a sudden, especially considering that cloaks basically blend really well with standard uniforms anyway. Nevermind that adding such a cool system would be legitimately immersive and realistic, let's skip doing that and just remove !fun! post-haste, as is the responsibility of server staff under the wise purview of Skull132.

[Skull132]

For someone pointing out that our reasons are vague, you sure as hell haven't read them.

First, the PR removes NanoTrasen branded cloaks. So your comments about the personal attire of people are relatively worthless, since the driving mechanisms and reasoning behind corporate fashion and uniform are rather different from that of your average person. As I already stated last night, corporate fashion exists to create a unified and clear look for a corporation, so that the representatives of that corporation could be recognized anywhere. A cloak is an incredibly offensive piece of clothing, ergo, it should either be a near mandatory piece for every employee to wear, or not exist as being nt branded. An analogy which one of my marketing professors brought up was the red scarf that is worn by Dubai Airlines female staff. A similarly offensive and attention grabbing piece of clothing, it is not optional and makes the uniform incredibly easy to identify. So again, an issue is that this is probably the most outlandish piece of NT fashion that's been added.

As for alternatives. Leaving it an IC issue is nonsensical. It creates the issue of game mechanics saying that NT has authorized you to wear this, so when IC forces say otherwise, you either get confused or tell them to shove off. And your other suggestion did not make much sense. What consequences could be piled onto for wearing specific, undesirable clothing? And there's no real mechanism to pile anything, the amount of slots you have is still well limited.

Already proposed was having the lore team come up with a specific look for NT, against which all past and future NT items will be evaluated. And no, "we cloaks" is not a specific look.

[SatinsPristOTD]

I'm really on the fence about it. I can see both sides clear as day, but I'm for removing them.

Corporations do have a sort of.... "standard" for how they expect their staff to dress. When it comes to prestigious jobs, the uniform basically moves to a more high class approach to whatever that job is. Fortune 500 companies expect some rather strict office attire, some companies going to the extent where you have to wear a certain BRAND of expensive suit. Some Fortune 500 companies have a "casual" day scheduled, but even that casual day is people dressed in well-to-do, name brand things. You wouldn't see ponchos, capes, overalls, flipflops etc etc. This goes for the entire staff department, not just upper management or big wigs. Even the janitors are expected to be dressed in a clean manner, and their uniform should be on par for what their job calls for. NanoTrasen doesn't run the Aurora like a Fortune 500 business, HOWEVER, I think they'd still have some standard, especially for jobs outside the civilian block.

Now, on the flip-side to this... you COULD argue that NanoTrasen allows them for.... mental comfort levels. It's similar to why the Army places favorite candy's in the MRE's. It doesn't really add much to the job, nor is it needed. In fact, it takes up space that could be used for something practical, but, it's important to ensure a few comforts of home are seen. I'm not sure how far you could stretch that veil, considering the station itself isn't that uncomfortable in appearance, and the vending machines have quite a few junky home foods you could surround yourself with.

I guess the argument isn't "Are cloaks logical on the Aurora?". It's more "Where do we draw the line in realism vs. giving people a way to customize their character?"

I don't see cloaks as very realistic nor do I think removing them will cause WW3 on how your Engineer looks.

[Juani2400]

Before removing cloaks, that are, as Jackboot said, a cultural portrait of certain species and are widely used by those (see Unathi and Vaurca), I'd remove the jackets or the sombrero first, together with a few other fashion items that certainly add very little to the setting, and are more of a meme thing than anything (cowboy hat, pls).

I'm fine with them being restricted to Xenowear for Unathi and Vaurca, or otherwise limited ICly, but an outright removal is not required.

Furthermore, these species are cold-blooded, if I'm not mistaken, so it kind of makes sense. What doesn't make sense is seeing Tajaran or humans with them, and if it were by me, those would be actually penalized if they wore one.

EDIT: To clear up some confusion to what I said about cold-blooded species, this is against the argument of temperature that was given. The cloaks won't make them warmer, but unlike other species who are endothermic, they will not suffer from an excess of heat (see tajara, humans).

[Asheram]

The jackets have a legitimate place on the station as they started in cargo back when there was a lot of heat loss from airlocks that didn't shut properly.

They aren't in use as much these days but they have a practical reason for being there.

Cloaks, on the other hand, doesn't protect as much from cold as they do wind and rain. If we have wind and rain on the station then the situation is far too dire to actually worry about such.

[Adrae]

I'd say it really depends on what the cloak is made of. If it's as thin as a bedsheet, then it may be fine for humans. Taj could have cooling capes, made of whatever that material is that some pillows use to stay cool. However, those would fit better in the xeno thing, as they would be noticeably different.

While not being the most "logical" of things like having a bar on a research station, the cloaks could have all sorts of IC meanings. My Sec cat keeps hers because it reminds her of what she wore back home. To discount something simply because it doesn't make concrete sense means that there's a lot of things that should be removed. Give me a minute, and I can hunt through, if you want.