Departmental Security

[MattAtlas]

Just now, AmoryBlaine said:

How is that anywhere close to what I said? Please, tell me how you took that from what I said.

 

2 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

If the point of this was to increase Departmental relations why would you encourage Officers to jump between Departments?

Clearly, if officers are talking to different people in different departments every shift, then surely... they have a bigger presence... in every department...?

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, geeves said:

Does it encourage you to leave your posting?

Does it incentivize you to stay? The offices are in poor positions, as I've pointed out. The main retort to that has been "Well you aren't SUPPOSE to stay in them." So where do you stay? Do you just stand in the Lobby of Medical? The Engine Camera room? The RnD lab? The cargo lobby? I already covered how this essentially overlaps with how Sec can currently be played if you actually care to interact with Departments yourself. But, given I'm needing to repeat all of this, again, I assume you did not bother to read those posts, or did not understand what I was getting at.

[AmoryBlaine]

2 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

Clearly, if officers are talking to different people in different departments every shift, then surely... they have a bigger presence... in every department...?

What does the rest say?

[MattAtlas]

Just now, AmoryBlaine said:

What does the rest say?

The rest you said hinges on what you said being true. Which it isn't.

This is why this thread is going to go in circles. I'm gonna say this is my last post before the testmerge, because there's nothing more to be gained out of responding.

[geeves]

1 minute ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Does it incentivize you to stay? The offices are in poor positions, as I've pointed out. The main retort to that has been "Well you aren't SUPPOSE to stay in them." So where do you stay?

Inside the department, helping the people of the department with their duties. Talking to people in the department, or outside the department if there's no one in the department.

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, geeves said:

Inside the department, helping the people of the department with their duties. Talking to people in the department, or outside the department if there's no one in the department.

And what does the rest say?

[geeves]

4 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

I already covered how this essentially overlaps with how Sec can currently be played if you actually care to interact with Departments yourself. But, given I'm needing to repeat all of this, again, I assume you did not bother to read those posts, or did not understand what I was getting at.

It can be played like this, but does it?

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, geeves said:

It can be played like this, but does it?

Yes, depending on the Officer, depending on the player. Depending on the dept character(s), depending on the dept player(s). So tell me, how does your change, do anything different than that which is already made available to all of us, and used by those interested in seeking those interactions- other than give Security more access, more comms, and more personnel?

[geeves]

It gives them the ability to be integrated in the department and roleplay with them instead of coming from outside and talking to them in their lobby. The true extent to which this would enhance the roleplay and hamper the antags would only be discovered during a long playtest (testmerge).

[AmoryBlaine]

14 minutes ago, geeves said:

It gives them the ability to be integrated in the department and roleplay with them instead of coming from outside and talking to them in their lobby. The true extent to which this would enhance the roleplay and hamper the antags would only be discovered during a long playtest (testmerge).

 

Quote

"With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station.", which is a detriment to the overall capacity for one to RP. The other option is to leave your department and do what you currently do- which is patrol, and talk to people when I want to, from where I want to.

This change does not bring any level of integration as its system forces you to department hop, keeping you as nomadic as you are currently, but now you get more access and comms. While everyone else in a Department stays there, and there alone. You go from department to department based on what slot is open.
 

Quote

 

It doesn't encourage extra interaction, it detracts from it by removing the middle man of needing to ask or build relations with personnel in order to gain access to a department willingly. Given you're not being incentivized anymore than you currently are to talk to people in your  given department, all it does is railroad  the process of security gaining access to areas. If you currently are interested in befriending others- you do so. In this update you are interested in befriending others- you do so. Nothing changes but Sec getting a massive buff.

What is the assumption being made here if a Dept Officer isn't patrolling the station as he is allowed? That he is inside the department 'interacting' with the staff there? What does that translate to? Standing in the RnD lab talking? Standing in the SM monitoring room talking on the radio? Sitting in the Medical lobby talking to the nurses? Or is it more involved? Moving crates with cargo technicians? Going EVA with Engineering to- watch them set up solars, or make repairs? Maybe cover the EMTs duties?

All of this is possible currently. Everything is possible currently. On top of it being the same between changes, the only big difference is currently, it is not based in the fact that you share a department but that you genuinely want to interact with the characters so you go out of your way to seek that interaction.

Back before we simplified the shield set up system, I'd help move the generators. Why? Because it helps build interdepartmental relations. What if we still had that, but I was now just spawning in the department? Okay, great. I helped. I didn't go out of my way to do so. I'm already there. I can even hear them on my radio. This lessens the actual influence the action has from the standpoint of interdepartmental relations, and is just more akin to not being an asshole, rather than doing something out of the ordinary.

By attempting to force interactions you lessen their actual value otherwise. On top of this, we buff Sec through the roof, by covering every department.

 

 

[AmoryBlaine]

All of this comes down to the fact that this change is nothing but a Sec buff, and pretends to make a change to how RP is carried out and where- but actually doesn't. And the proposed RP changes it wants are not something any reasonable person would want- the furthering of departmental isolation by trying to work Security into the mix, is obtuse. If anything the opposite of this should be wanted where people from each department leave their departments.

[geeves]

We'll see. I have high hopes, but I have no qualms putting it down if it sucks.

[Brutishcrab51]

I mean, I dislike it.

 

Here's an idea. Here's a big idea. Establish an SOP directive allowing for the HoS to assign officers (not REQUIRED to) to the departments, while keeping, at default, four General officers. So I can play and not need to be a heinous Department Officer without good reason. I don't want to do that. I never wanted to do that. I wouldn't play if that's the way it was. We can still make use of the offices you are making, too.

[Peppermint]

The overwhelming issue I have about this is that it does very little for sec players. Instead it's changing the sec role for the rest of the station. At the end of the day, it's not security refusing to interact with other people; it's pretty much every other role. The department tends to be the most social, so ramming it into the same boring chair RP many people play the role to avoid is incredibly frustrating. The only way I'd personally support this is to keep normal sec officer slots the same, whilst - like Brutish said - allowing the HoS to stick people into departments as needed/wanted. There's also the problem - at least to me - that's being somewhat overlooked, and that's how both IC and OOC friends within the department will be split up with this merge.

 

Plus security really, really does not need a buff.

[Randy]

Eh, not a fan

[tbear13]

As a Certified™ Secmain™ I like the idea. I'd love to see this at least test-merged so i can steal science guns without being bwoinked.

[CampinKiller]

5 hours ago, tbear13 said:

As a Certified™ Secmain™ I like the idea. I'd love to see this at least test-merged so i can steal science guns without being bwoinked.

Pffft you never play

[Carver]

13 hours ago, geeves said:

As you can see, the officers are literally different jobs. One the screenshot I'm readied up for "High" on the general officer, and NEVER on the others. That means I will NEVER be a departmental officer. Using this, you can finetune precisely what you want to spawn as, and not be hamfisted into a department you hate. The faction system also works for this, exactly as described (though I still have that bug I'm fixing with the IDs).

Looks fantastic so far.

[Carver]

On 29/10/2019 at 12:11, AmoryBlaine said:

Citation needed.

You quoted my citations. Bravo.

12 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

All of this comes down to the fact that this change is nothing but a Sec buff, and pretends to make a change to how RP is carried out and where- but actually doesn't. And the proposed RP changes it wants are not something any reasonable person would want- the furthering of departmental isolation by trying to work Security into the mix, is obtuse. If anything the opposite of this should be wanted where people from each department leave their departments.

Now you backpedal on your argument, going from 'it cripples security' to 'it's a buff that doesn't benefit RP' via a No True Scotsman argument. I'll humour you with an example:

1. John Doe is working as the Medical Officer.
2. John Doe has multiple options for the day: He can stay in Medical, patrolling or chatting with fellow employees. Or, he can opt to go patrol the halls outside and perhaps have a non-alcoholic drink at the bar.
3. John Doe realizes nothing is happening his department today and wants to take a walk, so he leaves Medical as he's not bound by an invisible Warden's chain.
4. John Doe has the freedom to do whatever he feels like, only obligated to return to his department when they require him. If he feels like staying, he can get to know the personnel there without being required to patrol the halls if he doesn't wish to. This is because John Doe has more freedom than a General Officer does due to his assignment.

[Brutishcrab51]

15 hours ago, Carver said:

You quoted my citations. Bravo.

Now you backpedal on your argument, going from 'it cripples security' to 'it's a buff that doesn't benefit RP' via a No True Scotsman argument. I'll humour you with an example:

1. John Doe is working as the Medical Officer.
2. John Doe has multiple options for the day: He can stay in Medical, patrolling or chatting with fellow employees. Or, he can opt to go patrol the halls outside and perhaps have a non-alcoholic drink at the bar.
3. John Doe realizes nothing is happening his department today and wants to take a walk, so he leaves Medical as he's not bound by an invisible Warden's chain.
4. John Doe has the freedom to do whatever he feels like, only obligated to return to his department when they require him. If he feels like staying, he can get to know the personnel there without being required to patrol the halls if he doesn't wish to. This is because John Doe has more freedom than a General Officer does due to his assignment.

Define how John Doe has more freedom than a General Officer due to his assignment. Being shackled to a department (as, that is what this is, you can feel free to argue it but the hint of where the Officer should spend his time is in the name) is not cohesive to personal freedoms. "Stay in the department, you aren't allowed to leave" says the CMO who now has his own personal goon to play with. Or the CE. Or the RD. Or the Quartermaster. Speaking of which, who does the Cargo Officer answer to? The Quartermaster? The Head of Personnel? Why?

 

And why would you be so silly as to remove the Security channel? "Oh, they can just use station-bounced radios!", I mean, yeah, but that's just more work and hassle. Why? Just, like, what?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Brutishcrab51
Family Friendly

[AmoryBlaine]

16 hours ago, Carver said:

You quoted my citations. Bravo.

Now you backpedal on your argument, going from 'it cripples security' to 'it's a buff that doesn't benefit RP' via a No True Scotsman argument. I'll humour you with an example:

1. John Doe is working as the Medical Officer.
2. John Doe has multiple options for the day: He can stay in Medical, patrolling or chatting with fellow employees. Or, he can opt to go patrol the halls outside and perhaps have a non-alcoholic drink at the bar.
3. John Doe realizes nothing is happening his department today and wants to take a walk, so he leaves Medical as he's not bound by an invisible Warden's chain.
4. John Doe has the freedom to do whatever he feels like, only obligated to return to his department when they require him. If he feels like staying, he can get to know the personnel there without being required to patrol the halls if he doesn't wish to. This is because John Doe has more freedom than a General Officer does due to his assignment.

It crippled Security when they wanted to take away our comms. Now it's just current Sec with more access, and more comms.

Quote

John Doe has multiple options for the day: He can stay in Medical, patrolling or chatting with fellow employees. Or, he can opt to go patrol the halls outside and perhaps have a non-alcoholic drink at the bar.

So, like, what you can do now, but with the precedent of being attached to a department, with more access and more comms? Were you not able to interact with Medical personnel before?

Quote

John Doe realizes nothing is happening his department today and wants to take a walk, so he leaves Medical as he's not bound by an invisible Warden's chain.

This isn't a thing, so I'm not sure what you're trying to make comparison to.

Quote

John Doe has the freedom to do whatever he feels like, only obligated to return to his department when they require him. If he feels like staying, he can get to know the personnel there without being required to patrol the halls if he doesn't wish to. This is because John Doe has more freedom than a General Officer does due to his assignment.

This is literally just normal Sec, but now you can be ordered around by a Department Head at their leisure- unless we're on Code Blue, where you return to normal Sec duties. Not sure how you see normal Sec at being disadvantaged outside their lack of departmental access and additional comms?

Wardens have no authority over Officers, you are allowed to do whatever you want unless the HoS/Captain gives orders otherwise, or breaks regulations. So why pretend that this change is some innovation, when all it does is buff Sec mechanically.

[Carver]

11 hours ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

Define how John Doe has more freedom than a General Officer due to his assignment. Being shackled to a department (as, that is what this is, you can feel free to argue it but the hint of where the Officer should spend his time is in the name) is not cohesive to personal freedoms. "Stay in the department, you aren't allowed to leave" says the CMO who now has his own personal goon to play with. Or the CE. Or the RD. Or the Quartermaster. Speaking of which, who does the Cargo Officer answer to? The Quartermaster? The Head of Personnel? Why?

The CMO telling you to stay in the department is no different than the HoS telling you to stay in the lobby and watch cameras, with possible note that the CMO needs a stronger reason to demand it (i.e. a past incident during the round) whereas an HoS does not. The other difference being that John Doe can choose from a baseline whether he prefers to stay in his assigned department or perform more typical duties.

He is not expected to patrol, nor is he required to stay within his department, when I said:

On 31/10/2019 at 20:14, Carver said:

John Doe realizes nothing is happening his department today and wants to take a walk, so he leaves Medical as he's not bound by an invisible Warden's chain.

The implication is that unlike the Warden, he's not going to get screamed at every 5 minutes for daring to walk out. As it's within his prerogative to choose to patrol or remain.

10 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

This isn't a thing, so I'm not sure what you're trying to make comparison to.

Read my previous two sentences.

10 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

So why pretend that this change is some innovation, when all it does is buff Sec mechanically.

My point is to counter your initial argument (following quote), the one that wasn't particularly mechanical but you've chosen to abandon in your pointless crusade against this project.

On 30/12/2018 at 16:00, AmoryBlaine said:

Right, because why would we want Security to freely traverse the station. Let's have them sit, isolated from departmental cliques, in tiny cubicles- tiny* cubes in places they have no* choice over. If you think that the four Officer slots available are gonna somehow always line up for you, to be able to hang out consistantly with your buddies from Medical/Science/Engineering/Service-Cargo, you're dead fucking wrong. Some bullshit I heard earlier about departmental preferences on the loadout screen. This isn't CM, these aren't squads. You have one man a department, and nothing more. So now rather than being able to get your gear, take a stroll and stop by whatever department you want to, to chat with those friends, now you get a possibility to end up stuck with them the whole shift. But the odds are you get stuck sitting in a random other department, with whoever else, and whatever their staff numbers are.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

6 hours ago, Carver said:

The CMO telling you to stay in the department is no different than the HoS telling you to stay in the lobby and watch cameras, with possible note that the CMO needs a stronger reason to demand it (i.e. a past incident during the round) whereas an HoS does not. The other difference being that John Doe can choose from a baseline whether he prefers to stay in his assigned department or perform more typical duties.

There are no expectations for you as Code Green Sec, you can go into whatever department, do whatever you want. Have we ever had a HoS order someone to watch cameras? I do not think so, unless there was a reason. Typically the people watching the cameras do so of their own volition or we ask Cadets to do it. So the different is, what- that you go from walking to a department and shacking up there, or walking around- to being being at a department and shacking up there or walking around? How is that an improvement over the current play?

6 hours ago, Carver said:

The implication is that unlike the Warden, he's not going to get screamed at every 5 minutes for daring to walk out. As it's within his prerogative to choose to patrol or remain.

Why, would you be yelled at by anyone, at all, for walking around, or visiting departments as Officer. Even the Warden is allowed to leave, it's just expected that he say something given his duties are directly involved with the brig. But, Warden and Dept Officer both share the reinforcement of connection to a specific area, thus increasing their likelihood to remain there, without enforcement by orders. So,

"With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station.", which is a detriment to the overall capacity for one to RP. The other option is to leave your department and do what you currently do- which is patrol, and talk to people when I want to, from where I want to.

6 hours ago, Carver said:

My point is to counter your initial argument (following quote), the one that wasn't particularly mechanical but you've chosen to abandon in your pointless crusade against this project.

You do realize that the current iteration of this has changed greatly from the initial, right?

[Azande]

2 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

There are no expectations for you as Code Green Sec, you can go into whatever department, do whatever you want. Have we ever had a HoS order someone to watch cameras? I do not think so, unless there was a reason. Typically the people watching the cameras do so of their own volition or we ask Cadets to do it.

There are expectations of code green sec. You cannot enter departments without a warrant, you cannot carry visible weaponry. And Heads of Security often do order someone to watch the cameras - because that's a very basic yet functional security task that negates the need to patrol departments.

[AmoryBlaine]

2 minutes ago, Azande said:

There are expectations of code green sec. You cannot enter departments without a warrant, you cannot carry visible weaponry. And Heads of Security often do order someone to watch the cameras - because that's a very basic yet functional security task that negates the need to patrol departments.

You cannot enter a department in an official capacity without a warrant, carrying weapons isn't something this is concerned with, and that's more just poking a hole in my "you can do whatever" statement. Heads of Security often want someone to watch cameras. But them wanting that, and someone actually spending 45 minutes sitting there doing that are two different things. And, like I said, it usually falls on a cadet, since officers wanna do their own thing.