We need to talk about the relationship between Mining and Science...

[Jupiter Storm]

Introduction:

Many from both sides of the coin will probably agree with me that there is a genuine issue here, as I have counted more shifts than not where the expectations heaped upon either department by the other spark arguments, toxic rivalries and a hate-hate working relationship. This results in a round dynamic that is enjoyed by nobody at all, and whether it is right or not, IC bleeds into OOC because the entire thing just becomes utterly fucking frustrating, honestly. The outcome of this is going to inevitably be mass-IR's, Character Complaints, people refusing to their jobs out of spite and getting fired. Let's nip this in the bud.

For context, I main both a Robotics / R&D Character AND a Shaft Miner character, thus my views on this are in no way biased and I understand acutely how each department works, so please bear with me while I outline the context, and then my proposition - for what I believe should be an IC Policy - or, if it exists already, people should be made more aware of it.

 

The Illusion - How Science views Miners:

The rate of any reaction to produce an end product is always governed by the slowest step - for Research, this has been and always will be, the ability of miners to deliver in a timely fashion. Machines can be upgraded, Research can be performed, and Exosuit frames or Robot chassis can be fabricated, but once all this is done... You're still waiting for that first mineral delivery. Miners are lazy, incompetent, gung-ho idiots with a blasé attitude towards your needs, and nine out of ten times they'll let you down and fall down a hole, or tell you to 'fuck off'. These unqualified rock-monkeys will never understand the importance of ground-breaking research because their tiny brains can't handle it.

The Illusion - How Miners view Science:

Science are the evil empire. Period. An overbearing force who you have absolutely no choice but to serve, because that's literally what your role entails. If you're not performing, you're neglecting your duty, and liable to be fired. They're heaping unnecessary pressure upon you when you're trying to focus on not getting yourself killed, hauling your heavy box and ass around the asteroid trying to find mineral veins to complete your collection to send back, which elude you at every turn. Scientists are rude, selfish, and arrogant individuals who mess with powers even they don't understand, and will not give a pico-scopic shit if you die out in the cold vacuum of space, and who will grunt and shrug at you when you hand over your yield, without so much as a 'thank-you'. Want a Kinetic Accelerator or a Ripley? Forget about it, these douchebags are way too self-important to spare a moment to even think about what you might need, even if it makes you better at your job. You're a distraction to them, an unwelcome diversion from their work.

 

Why do Miners play Miners?

A Shaft Miner character enjoys exploring, using high-tech equipment that nobody else on station is able to use because it's frankly too destructive. A character like this is geared towards an adventurer mentality, performing an exceptionally dangerous and unforgiving role in order to deliver raw materials and - when quotas are met - dive into ancient ruins or derelict ships, battling with hostile fauna and returning with buried treasure. If you're looking to make Miners happy so they can make you happy, you need to understand why they're asking you for their best and baddest survival tools or digging machines.

Why do Science play Science?

Science is an incredibly diverse department with the possibility to engage in Research from a dizzying array of fields, and some absolutely amazing Directors like Angela Ulery or Geeve's R.D. will push the boundaries of Science's role, testing the actual game mechanics themselves after a fashion, and exploring ideas that you never even thought would work. Robotics could be churning out next-generation titans of war and industry, while R&D might be experimenting with the most eccentric circuit designs, experimental technologies and prototype star-destroying weapons that don't blow up in your hand. But to do all this, they rely on something - the Protolathe / Fabricators. What do those rely on? Materials. To do their job properly, Science need to be able to run to their machines, print anything that they need, immediately, right that second, not twenty minutes later, not an hour later, right now.

 

The Miner's Obligation:

Contrary to popular belief, and the usual 'accepted practice' for shaft miners, this department is in no way obligated to actually DELIVER materials to the Science department. Their commitment begins and ends with gathering raw materials from the mine, refining them into something useful, and filling out that NFC-0600 Yield Declaration and sticking it in the box of sheets. Delivering materials to Science, by hand, has always been, and always will be, a courtesy and nothing more. This is done because it gives Miners face-time with their would-be suppliers, to ask for what they need. The role of handling orders, sorting departmental resources and delivering them, actually belongs to Cargo - and if there are no Cargo Technicians on board, oh boy howdy, you'd better play nice.

The Scientist / Roboticist's Obligation:

This is actually common knowledge already, but in theory - if IC regulations are being vehemently adhered to (which by the way, I don't think they should, given the abysmally short rounds we play) - everything that you ask for, from Science, has an associated form, such as the NFC-0502 Robotics Construction. Now, unless one of these forms is correctly filled out, and stamped by the Research Director, nobody in Science is obligated whatsoever to provide you with any equipment at all, and this will never be neglect of duty - in fact, they're performing their duty chapter and verse. As a miner, you are relying on the courtesy of Science, and having a good rapport with them.

 

The Round Mechanics / Timings:

First things first, Aurora rounds typically last 2 hours, which gives people a very limited window in which to pursue their Research Projects or to enjoy their new Mining Gear. Let's look at Science first. If someone shit-hot is manning R&D, the levels will be maxed (as far as they can be without resources) AND all machines will be upgraded by 00:20. An average R&D-er with the correct knowledge can do this by 00:30. Similarly, in Mining, there are some absolutely lightning-fast and efficient miners who can get their first yield in by 00:15 - though this will be really small and generally they're doing it just to grab a drill or a baseline KA. On average, a sizeable yield should be gathered by 00:30 - 00:35; this is the target I always aim for as Gideon Mayfield and generally results in about 10 sheets of each exotic, 30-40 sheets of steel, 15-20 sheets of plasteel and 100-300 sheets of glass.

All going to plan, this should mean Science, by 00:30, has everything they need to build you either a Ripley, or a Kinetic Accelerator to any spec you desire. (The exception being the Ripley's Diamond Drill, which eats diamond sheets like a neet on tendies). Having done both things as Jupiter, my Scientist / Mechatronic, I can tell you right now that a Ripley takes exactly 3 minutes to construct and equip, while a KA takes 30 seconds to build to any required spec. Double or triple those numbers depending on experience levels, but by and large, the 'distraction' of gearing a miner should take about 5 minutes out of your round time. That's it.

As a Miner, you are now equipped with everything you need, so it's time to get back out there. Your yields are now going to double in size (if you're in a Ripley), or triple / quadruple (if you're using an AoE KA). So by 01:00 - 01:10 you are delivering Research with enough stuff to last them basically the remainder of the shift, and Research does not need to stop what they're doing to make you better stuff now. If you give them one more yield at 01:30, your quota is done, they have absolutely everything they need and the last 30 minutes of the round is wind-down time to do whatever you want, while they bring their experiments to a grand climax. There is no point in doing a fourth run, because you'll be back by 02:00 and the round will probably be over.

Tell me this doesn't sound fair for both parties?

 

Efficiency and Regulations - My IC Policy Proposition:

In summary, my proposition for IC Policy is that this become a regulated practice to ensure respectful, friendly and mutually-beneficial interaction between two departments that are often at each other's throats constantly. There needs to be a clause, somewhere, suggesting that perhaps it is now the 'Duty' of Miners to ensure that their materials are allocated and distributed to Research and Robotics in equal measure, and that it is the 'Duty' of Science to provision miners with advanced equipment if material deliveries are on-time, in order to promote workplace safety and efficiency that benefits the NanoTrasen Corporation as a whole. Furthermore, it should also be the 'Duty' of Miners to allocate X amount of [Resource] to Engineering - particularly Glass and Steel - since in some rounds this department can run out of the stuff in microseconds.

If we're going to expand this to a completely lore-friendly and corporate regulations-adhering practice, the procedure should go as follows:

Mining Equipment - All requests for KAs and Ripleys are to be forward to Research using the appropriate forms from the Mining Requests console, faxed to either R&D or Robotics during the time that your first yield is processing. This paperwork needs to clearly outline the module that you want, what you want it equipped with, etc. If there is not a Research Director, then this cannot strictly be approved, however you have paper evidence to suggest that you have requested it - providing it's a sensible request - and thus an evidence trail if what you ask for is not given, so you can safely report this to the Head of Personnel or CCIA. Perhaps make it Policy that a request for equipment that serves a clear, mining purpose, must be automatically approved and the paperwork can be stamped at NTCC Odin when taken back in a folder in accordance with [Regulation BigNumber] pertaining to mining-related enquiries.

If this is done properly, Research and Robotics will have your orders before you make your first delivery, and can prepare them ahead of time, meaning that when you deliver your first yield, you can immediately go back out with your upgraded equipment, which is in the best interests of both yourself, and Science.

Science Deliveries - It should be, in the same vein, strict policy that all material deliveries to Research MUST be handled by Mining Personnel, and that Research MUST be provided with a photocopy of your Yield Declaration stating a full inventory of what you have provided. Therefore there will never be any confusion or any shadow of a doubt that the miners have been doing their jobs when the Director comes calling and says 'why haven't we got this or this yet?' Additionally, it should be regulated policy that resources in equal amounts are allocated to Robotics and Research, separately, by the Mining Department, so that the Science Department does not have to scramble around prompting one another for resources, to maximise their own efficiency. The allocations can be detailed in the NOTES section of the NFC-0600 Yield Declaration.

Acceptable Timings - Policy should be that miners starting the shift at 00:00 are expected to deliver their first yield by 00:45 minutes at the ABSOLUTE LATEST, and that anybody who is not doing so, is in neglect of duty. Concessions will be provided for antag-related events in the interest of personnel safety, as well as for miners who are injured on the asteroid. Or, for OOC reasons such as "I need to SSD in the Dormitories" or "I need to go for a long bathroom break". Perhaps a stamp-code machine similar to modern industrial workplaces can be included in the Refinery so there is a clear record of when a Miner begins their shift.

There is already a clearly-established regulation suggesting that miners who refuse to go out and dig for any reason (barring inexperience or injury) are liable to be suspended, reprimanded or fired. Science are within their rights to enforce this by involving heads or just RPing out the rivalry and generating conflict to drive an interesting alternative dynamic.

Failure to Provide - The other side of this coin for the sake of fairness is that Science will be in neglect of duty if they do NOT read their Requests Console or a hand-delivered form, and refuse to make the equipment there and then. Again, it is in the best interests of both Science AND Mining, to drop everything they are doing, grant the equipment request, and send the miners away so they can come back with more stuff and never bother you for stuff again.

 

Concluding Notes:

I am very sorry for the exceptionally-long post, but I felt it was all necessary to provide context on why this needed, and help everyone to understand how this would benefit both departments at the same time, and promote more enjoyable rounds on both sides. For your consideration, please discuss or suggest improvements.

Two closing points on language...

> "mIneRs wHaT iS tHE Eta oN mY MinErAls???" - This is often mis-interpreted by miners, including myself sadly, as a hostile and impatient prompt. Usually, it's actually not. What the Scientist is asking is whether it's worth them getting involved in something else while they wait, whether they can AFK for a few, or go and get a drink. On the flip-side, language such as "MINERS HURRY UP WITH MATERIALS" or "WHERE IS THE YIELD?" is very rude, and does not in any way affect the speed of miners who are working to deliver what you need. Turning up personally to Cargo and micro-managing the department across the desk just makes you look like a complete asshole, for that is exactly what you are, and you deserve to be shot. ^_^

> "hEy MaTe GiVe mE a RiplEy wIth A bIG lAsEr hAha" - Miners can actually be notorious for making unreasonable or downright stupid requests. While this isn't commonplace, a Roboticist or a Researcher who is roleplaying correctly will NEVER approve the distribution of weaponry to non-Security personnel that does not serve a clear purpose for clearing rocks. A Plasma-Cutter is pretty much the middle ground here, and while it's incredibly inefficient for mining with, it's still technically a mining tool. But not one that people should be obligated to provide if they think you're untrustworthy.

 

Again, very sorry for the long post.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Jupiter Storm

[Soultheif96]

As a main R&D and Weapons Manufaturing Scientist, I will have to agree wholeheartedly with Jupiter’s statements here as I have been seeing an increase in hostility between departments. My usual requests are 10 sheets of each exotic materials and 1 stack of glass and metal, followed by three thermal drills and two lazarus injectors in order to carry out maximazation of research levels to satisfy the department’s needs.

Afterwards, I usually then let all things fall into order with personal research and satisfying the crew’s demands.

I have been seeing neglect of duty as of late and I am not pleased with that as it inhibits other player’s playability unless there is a fair reasoning ICly or OOCly.

So, all in all, I agree wholeheartedly with Jupiter.

[DronzTheWolf]

I agree that the hostilities have been rising, and it's really being egged on by both sides. I tend to do some mild complaints about material rushing, but usually I'll just concede and tell them not to expect much because I'm ending my mining run early to bring them what they want. That or I'll tell them it's ready when it's ready, which is typically true. There are a few purposefully unfriendly scientists (and RDs) that are actually issues, and the same with some of the Miners. The issue is that since they're not breaking any rules or regulations, there's really no way to combat that other than to try and trick them into attacking you so you can get them arrested. Which only serves to further hostilities. 

Overall, though, I think that a bit of understanding, and more importantly, a way for the two to actually connect, would go a long way. I suggested giving miners Science comms but everyone and their mothers were against that. Giving scientists Cargo comms might be more appropriate, but it'd really not be too useful for them and probably serve to confuse newer players to the role/server. It's hard to come up with a lasting solution.

[Evandorf]

While I can appreciate the goal of the suggestion, I can't say I support it for three reasons. 

1. Implementation. Aside from security regulations and ccia directives there isn't really a place for this and I don't see it fitting into either of these two categories either. In fact, issues you describe can already be filed under our existing neglect of duty regulation, it simply requires the appropriate head to file charges. This brings up...

2. Administration. Many of the issues you bring up can be resolved by a competent RD or HoP. If you feel like this is becoming an issue and you don't already have a head whitelist I'd recommend getting one and tackling the issue from a position of authority.

3. Player expectations. This is my primary concern. I am very wary about placing timed constraints on people's gameplay and defining someone's duty for them. Even if there were policies on how quickly mining was to deliver the first load of materials it would likely always need to be handled icly by heads of staff, and if the current issue is not being resolved by the heads I don't see that putting more restrictive IC policies into the universe will solve that. 

[Conspiir]

An increase in hostility? Yikes. I've missed some things. Here I thought I'd reached the peak months ago in the Vedai vs Robert feud that lasted like 3 rounds. @VTCobaltblood

 

As another person that has played large amounts of both departments, most of what is mentioned here sounds like common sense. If everyone in each department knows what they're doing, there will never be a need for any of it to be written down; it just works. Miners get their 5 minutes of social interaction and scientists get to finish out those levels and experiment. But clearly we've come to a point where something needs to be written down.

 

I'm just... hesitant.

 

"But Conspire, it'll make things flow better to have this stuff written in and everyone know about it. There's clear and present guidelines."

 

Yeeeah… Uhh… I'm struggling with this. These guidelines really go off the assumption that both parties are experienced, present, and capable. Putting a time limit on yields comes with experience--a new player is not going to know they need to bring in a yield by xx time to get the supermega KA and a jetpack and mesons and an ore summoner and a RIG and 5 boomboom charges and a thermal drill to put in the RIG and...

 

They're just going to mine with their pick and try their damnedest not to fall.

 

And when they come back in, whole for the first time since they've started mining (phew!), they're hit with neglect of duty? That doesn't feel right to me. There shouldn't be punishment for inexperience. The same falls to the science side of things. Not everyone can max levels quickly. Sometimes it takes a while (if someone starts RnD before I get there, I really, really struggle because I know only my list and have to figure out where the heck to start based on the levels the other person has done). If a miner shows up and says "Where's my equipment" and the scientist literally has not been able to do it yet (particularly if what's requested needs materials), then we're exactly where we are now. "Hey, scientist, I need X" "Alright, just a second."

 

This feels like a culture thing. Is it a culture thing? It really feels like one. It feels like a situation that should be remedied by teaching, not by policy. Experienced members of each department should be stepping in if there's a toxic relationship happening. Explaining why it should be let go. There's never a good reason.

 

I will say this: Something, somewhere, somehow, that states miners should offer materials to research cannot go amiss. It bothers me it's never been there before.

[Jupiter Storm]

2 minutes ago, DronzTheWolf said:

The issue is that since they're not breaking any rules or regulations, there's really no way to combat that other than to try and trick them into attacking you so you can get them arrested. Which only serves to further hostilities.

 *   *   *    *    *
It's hard to come up with a lasting solution.

This. The overall 'goal' here, is kind of what I think would be the 'least uncomfortable' scenario, whereby there are clear-cut and universally-understood regulations outlining the obligations of miners and scientists to one another. Meaning that there is no way around it, so they can get on with it and make it standard practice, whereby both parties benefit and they develop a cohesive rapport. ... Hopefully, it's not perfect, but it's what I've got. ?

[Evandorf]

I'll make an addendum to my post and say that conflict between mining and science isn't necessarily a bad thing. At the end of the day the game exists for RP and story, not for departmental efficiency. If issues spill into OOC channels however  then I'd suggest reporting it to staff.

[Jupiter Storm]

13 minutes ago, Evandorf said:

While I can appreciate the goal of the suggestion, I can't say I support it for three reasons. 

1. Implementation. Aside from security regulations and ccia directives there isn't really a place for this and I don't see it fitting into either of these two categories either. In fact, issues you describe can already be filed under our existing neglect of duty regulation, it simply requires the appropriate head to file charges. This brings up...

2. Administration. Many of the issues you bring up can be resolved by a competent RD or HoP. If you feel like this is becoming an issue and you don't already have a head whitelist I'd recommend getting one and tackling the issue from a position of authority.

3. Player expectations. This is my primary concern. I am very wary about placing timed constraints on people's gameplay and defining someone's duty for them. Even if there were policies on how quickly mining was to deliver the first load of materials it would likely always need to be handled icly by heads of staff, and if the current issue is not being resolved by the heads I don't see that putting more restrictive IC policies into the universe will solve that. 

Sorry, these two popped up while I was responding to Dronz so I'll answer these as well.

You're right, realistically it's a very very difficult goal to obtain because it's hard to implement, and requires sympathetic Heads who are on the ball and are willing to deal with it. Not to mention the player expectations which rely on standards set by experienced workers.

If nothing else, Evan, I'm hoping at the very least this post will raise awareness and that both parties will realise the effect that they're having on each other - and maybe this will serve to target the issue on a broader scale than involve Heads or CCIA on individual cases. I hope that clears it up a little.

Edit: The conflict can be really interesting and good for RP, but it has sort of(?) reached the point where the round dynamic it causes results in a less enjoyable round, since neither is able to properly go about playing in the style they were hoping to. Particularly an issue on extended rounds, where you have that time, unmolested by antags, to really immerse yourself in the role but you just aren't able to make the most of it.
 

11 minutes ago, Conspiir said:

This feels like a culture thing. Is it a culture thing? It really feels like one. It feels like a situation that should be remedied by teaching, not by policy. Experienced members of each department should be stepping in if there's a toxic relationship happening. Explaining why it should be let go. There's never a good reason.

 

I will say this: Something, somewhere, somehow, that states miners should offer materials to research cannot go amiss. It bothers me it's never been there before.

In this post's defence, the primary issue stems actually from the interactions of experienced players - miners who would very much like to receive their gear and make the most of it, and top-class scientists who need a lot of stuff in a timely fashion to pursue their goals for the shift, you know?

It does need to be written down, even just in a book somewhere placed on the desk of each department. Admittedly the constraints I suggested on miners were very very nasty, but I was attempting to approach the matter from a non-biased point of view, since I play both departments and I want to address the issue from both points of view, since... Both are kind of at fault, in the others' eyes.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Jupiter Storm

[A.I.M.M.O.]

I probably can only really talk about the miner side here, I played roboticist a while ago, but recently I only play miner.

My own intention for playing mining: The points, no really. I often just try to see how far I can go. Other than that actually to provide science I actually started mining because I knew how hard robotics sucks when there are no mats, so I could be the miner science needs.

I personally barely ever encounter hostilities by science, and actually sometimes fear I am too demanding (my "standard" order is 1 KA, 2 cells, one RIG piece, and a whole industrial drill ...)
But I am ticked off if science doesn't supply and will ask Command staff about it.
I mostly try to keep a professional aspect about this: I do my job (2 of each mat at the 20-25 mark, and more after that) and you do yours (at least) provide the KA.

I agree that there needs to be a clear designation on what which department has to do, but I wouldn't link it to a time-trap. If Miner A provided science fully by 00:50, I join at 00:51 and do a haul so long that I would be in neglect of duty, that would just stupid be stupid. Also, there needs to be more emphasis that engineering and Chemistry need to be supplied with their stuff.

Though the duty to deliver the materials should first fall to Cargo Techs and QM´s, if none are around or acting in their duty then the Miners should be responsible. 

 

[ben10083]

1. The suggested "duty" of RnD to respond to all miner gear requests when they use paperwork is already a thing, if a scientist denies it for no reason that is grounds for neglect

2. The same can be said above for mining, if they do not provide materials without a good reason (inexperience is a excuse), that is also grounds for neglect

3. Timed quotas are never a good thing, heads can make them, but I feel that making a reg or directive forcing quotas are overall a bad idea.

4. HoP and IAA are people who are here to deal with this exact situation, talk to them.

5. It is up to the players to cooperate with each other and go cross-department, not more rules for sec to have to hound mining and science over.

Overall, I feel no change is needed, it is up to the player base to deal with this problem, not a directive or reg. (CCIA Notices would not be sufficient) 

[Evandorf]

2 minutes ago, A.I.M.M.O. said:

Though the duty to deliver the materials should first fall to Cargo Techs and QM´s, if none are around or acting in their duty then the Miners should be responsible. 

 

I agree. Though extreme, I would even enjoy a mining setup where the smelters were input from only the outside and miners rarely came back in with the majority of hauling and counting done by cargo. 

[Jupiter Storm]

Alright, I'll concede that the time-trap was reeeeeeally stupid. Let me just cross that out, but leave it in so that people can at least see where you all are coming from.

4 minutes ago, ben10083 said:

4. HoP and IAA are people who are here to deal with this exact situation, talk to them.

One thing I really, really need to respectfully stress and reinforce, however, is that I'm trying to go about this in a way that raises general awareness, so that we can apply a sort of 'hard reset' back to the old working relationship that used to exist.

I honestly would love to avoid mass-IR's and calling in Heads to combat the problem - it wastes their time and ours, and you'll find that there's a lot of Heads who just aren't willing to deal with this kind of strife because they have bigger issues on their plate. This also only addresses individual cases, and as Dronz pointed out, it would escalate the hostilities, not reverse them. There's a real risk of starting a back-and-forth paperwork war.

But! You are all making really awesome and valid points, and I hope others get involved in this discussion so we can see where everything falls. This is exactly what I was hoping for. ?

[Arrow768]

I have to echo what @ben10083 is saying.

There are already sufficient means to deal with this issue ICly.
Scientists are expected to provide reasonable mining equipment to the miners if they are able to.
And miners are expected to procure materials in a reasonable time (and either inform cargo so they can deliver it or deliver it on their own).
The person distributing the materials is also expected to distribute it according to the requests they received. (If you need materials in science, robotics, chemistry, engineering, ...) then you should use your requests console to request them or inform the QM of your request.

The Heads of Staff already have the capability to solve this issue ingame. (I.e. if a miner is just sitting around in the bar and no materials have been delivered than that can be considered neglect of duty)
If Science does not supply mining with reasonable equipment requests (using the request forms) without specifying a reason, that can also be considered neglect of duty (especially if they have the materials required and there are no other tasks that require immediate attention)

To resolve these issues is the exact reason why we have heads of staff ingame.
And if you believe that there are specific individuals in either department, who continuously refuse to cooperate, then it would probably be a good idea to file a incident report about them.

[ben10083]

@Jupiter Storm Arrow already addressed what I was going to say to what you said regarding head's involvement. (I was almost done when Arrow replied, dang it Arrow ? )

However, this policy suggestion should be considered a wake-up call to Head of Staff, I recommend urging them OOCly and ICly when cross-departmental issues occur, as they are the ones responsible and the most capable of dealing with them.

[VTCobaltblood]

4 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

Contrary to popular belief, and the usual 'accepted practice' for shaft miners, this department is in no way obligated to actually DELIVER materials to the Science department

You are. This is a phoron research station - your job is to provide phoron to research. Hello.

 

I don't find this hostility an issue. Conflict is roleplay. Find a way to go around it. Be polite when asking for something. It's an IC problem, yes - science is screwing you over. If you don't like that course of things, you can order pretty decent KAs from cargo. 

Managing to work together should be an effort, not something mandatory. 

I'm disliking the fact that R&D is being treated like a factory of things. Some individuals in particular even set us ETAs (!!!!!!) on when we MUST provide KAs to Mining, and then act all surprised and offended when Research says no. We're researchers. This is a research station. You have your own KAs. The fact that scientists who are supposed to research and find new things are forced to do the same things over and over every round is actually somewhat sadly ironic. This honestly makes the role kind of draining and dull. Though I guess I'm going off on a tangent here.

Don't be dicks, people. And then you'll get what you want. Is it that difficult?

 

P.S. The feud between Vedai and Bretscher, a miner and a scientist, is what initially made me interested to stay on the server. It was some fantastic RP. You're the best, @Conspiir

Edited April 3, 2019 by VTCobaltblood

[Doxxmedearly]

2 hours ago, VTCobaltblood said:

You are. This is a phoron research station - your job is to provide phoron to research. Hello.

Hello. The meaning here (I believe) is that the miners are under no obligation to bring the hauls physically to science; that should be the domain of cargo techs and quartermasters. If there aren't any, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for a miner to go "Hey your mats are in, send somebody for them" and give an assistant or lab assistant something to do for 2 minutes. 

[VTCobaltblood]

2 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Hello. The meaning here (I believe) is that the miners are under no obligation to bring the hauls physically to science; that should be the domain of cargo techs and quartermasters. If there aren't any, I'd say it's perfectly reasonable for a miner to go "Hey your mats are in, send somebody for them" and give an assistant or lab assistant something to do for 2 minutes. 

I'd rather not argue the meaning of words written by others.

[Jupiter Storm]

@Doxxmedearly is right, sorry, that was a misunderstanding. But yes, there is no information in the miners' job role that actually points to them being required to hand-deliver the materials since all shipments and resource allocations are the province of cargo. The point I was getting at was that the only reason the miners handle this, is to get the face-time with Research to smile and wave and get something useful real quick then leave - which takes the best part of 3 minutes tops and means they never have to bother you again, and will return with more stuff.

If miners are consistently delivering things by hand in a timely manner, and not seeing even so much as a thank-you for it, they're not going to do it, and they are not obligated to in their job role. They're obligated to dig, and refine, and to fill out Yield Decs, but they're not obligated to physically deliver.

Which is the whole point here, really, the whole point of the post, to raise awareness of the common-sense fact that the give-take is mutually beneficial, not very much of a bother at all, ensures a higher quality of round enjoyment for all. Now if someone was to turn around and say, "Oh, sorry, I am a Scientist, but I'm not R&D specialized, I'm working on Circuits and Telecomms," then a miner should be able to understand that. It's perfectly fair. But for someone like Bretscher for example, who churns out weapons, but refuses to take a minute out of his day to throw down a KA (which by the way, you should really try Mining so you can see the difference between a vendor-grade KA and a researched KA), it's a little harder to believe.

I agree that a hostile dynamic can be enjoyable and promote RP, but it's important to respect the balance between realism and a game - we do not necessarily play this game for 100% realism, we play it to have fun. The realism is a component of that, but there needs to be a balance to ensure that it stays, fun. If mining stops being fun for progressively more people because they aren't getting satisfaction out of a round, they just won't do it, will they? Then you'll have no materials at all.

Similarly if a miner doesn't get what they want because circumstances mean that they can't, for one reason or another, and throw their toys out of the pram and refuses to hand-deliver things anymore and instead leaves it to cargo... While a realistic response, it's severely hampering a Researcher's role, and detracts from their round satisfaction too.

I feel like a lot of people are focusing too much on the realism here - and while it SHOULD be a focus, as I said, this is a game first and foremost. Let me draw everyone's attention to a particular clause in my post that I had hoped would cement understanding of why the issue is an issue:

Why do Miners play Miners?

A Shaft Miner character enjoys exploring, using high-tech equipment that nobody else on station is able to use because it's frankly too destructive. A character like this is geared towards an adventurer mentality, performing an exceptionally dangerous and unforgiving role in order to deliver raw materials and - when quotas are met - dive into ancient ruins or derelict ships, battling with hostile fauna and returning with buried treasure. If you're looking to make Miners happy so they can make you happy, you need to understand why they're asking you for their best and baddest survival tools or digging machines.

Why do Science play Science?

Science is an incredibly diverse department with the possibility to engage in Research from a dizzying array of fields, and some absolutely amazing Directors like Angela Ulery or Geeve's R.D. will push the boundaries of Science's role, testing the actual game mechanics themselves after a fashion, and exploring ideas that you never even thought would work. Robotics could be churning out next-generation titans of war and industry, while R&D might be experimenting with the most eccentric circuit designs, experimental technologies and prototype star-destroying weapons that don't blow up in your hand. But to do all this, they rely on something - the Protolathe / Fabricators. What do those rely on? Materials. To do their job properly, Science need to be able to run to their machines, print anything that they need, immediately, right that second, not twenty minutes later, not an hour later, right now.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Jupiter Storm

[VTCobaltblood]

3 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

But for someone like Bretscher for example, who churns out weapons, but refuses to take a minute out of his day to throw down a KA (which by the way, you should really try Mining so you can see the difference between a vendor-grade KA and a researched KA), it's a little harder to believe.

Gideon and AIMMO keep nagging him (and Research in general) for KAs as if it's Research's duty, and are generally rude over the radio. He returns the hostilities. By asking for KAs, you're asking for a favor - which he is in full rights to not provide. You would be surprised, but Bretscher does indeed make KAs for mining, and even has some lukewarm relationships with specific people in that depatment - when he is approached with sufficient materials and without making a fuss about it.

Now, please don't consider this an attack on your character. I enjoy interacting with Gideon, and listening to him over the radio, a whole bunch, and I'm genuinely looking forward to something happening to progress/change the relationship (albeit it is a passive one) between them. A chance for them to interact more, even if the interaction is of conflict. It's much more interesting than dropping mats and getting a KA, no? 

3 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

I agree that a hostile dynamic can be enjoyable and promote RP, but it's important to respect the balance between realism and a game - we do not necessarily play this game for 100% realism, we play it to have fun. The realism is a component of that, but there needs to be a balance to ensure that it stays, fun. If mining stops being fun for progressively more people because they aren't getting satisfaction out of a round, they just won't do it, will they? Then you'll have no materials at all.

I agree completely. I think I can even say that I don't care about realism in this game's gameplay whatsoever. None of my posts mentioned realism however, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Being buddy-buddy with everyone is boring, plain and simple - realism is not involved. And if "if you're rude, people will be rude in return" is somehow too "realistic" for you and thus ruins your fun, I honestly don't know what to say.

And believe me, Science can have fun and function without Mining's materials. So it's not like you're particularly vital to the order of operations here, at least for how I play it. Circuits don't need mats, guns can be made with phoron from telecomms, etc. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by VTCobaltblood

[Jupiter Storm]

5 hours ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Now, please don't consider this an attack on your character.

No that's absolutely fair, I'm just as bad for assuming negative intent. And I will try to keep that in check now that I understand where you're coming from.

5 hours ago, VTCobaltblood said:

So it's not like you're particularly vital to the order of operations here

This is also very fair, can confirm as a Science character myself. The only way a lack of 'mats really hampers Robotics is in the production of silly gun-mechs and the far more useful robotic upgrades - that said the 'Bots don't often come in to get them when they're available. ?

[Carver]

In the simplest of terms, it'd be best to just establish that neither owes the other anything by default, and that if requests are to be made to one another, it should be done via paperwork and not radio/PDA harassment. Mining's only obligation is to the Quartermaster and HoP. Research's only obligation is to the RD. If mining simply gives all the materials to the quartermaster and he opts to sell them via the cargo shuttle that is entirely valid. If Research opts to do chemistry experiments and never ponders the remote idea of building a KA, that is entirely valid.

[VTCobaltblood]

13 hours ago, Jupiter Storm said:

The only way a lack of 'mats really hampers Robotics

 Telecomms has absurd amounts of glass, steel and plasteel. Research can also set up their own drills to get some of the materials.