Staff Complaint - Garnascus

[Scheveningen]

BYOND Key: Scheveningen (0188 over discord, same username)
Staff BYOND Key: Garnascus, (7459 over discord, same username)
Game ID: Not applicable, this happened over discord.
Reason for complaint: Telling me to drink bleach over discord.
Evidence/logs/etc:









Additional remarks: I don't have a lot to say about this. This is awful behavior for a head admin to be doing. I do not care if it was meant to be a joke, absolutely nobody found it funny and it came completely out of left field and unexpectedly. I do not think I deserved that comment. I do not think anyone at all should be suggesting harm or suicide as an option to anyone, whether a joke or not. There's plenty of other scenarios in staff complaints regarding Garnascus' conduct and attitude when he finds himself disagreeable with the positions of others, so this isn't the first time that his attitude has become a problem. 

[Garnascus]

it was a joke. you could have just PMed me like an adult and said "hey man i know you where probably joking but thats not cool". 

[Scheveningen]

So, this complaint about a staff member's misconduct is "not being an adult"?

That's legitimately the only take-away you can take from this, it's what I did, and not what you did?

I'll be back tomorrow when some more salient points and acknowledgement about your behavior is raised.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Garnascus]

2 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

I'll be back tomorrow when some more salient points and acknowledgement about your behavior is raised.

I mean i could post logs of some of the crazy shit you've PMed to me but i dont want to get into it with you. I made a joke with you that you didnt like. Just PM me and i would have said "hey man thats my bad" instead you ran to the forums. Yeah i do not care to discuss anything with you.

[LorenLuke]

11 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

it was a joke.

[Garnascus]

5 minutes ago, LorenLuke said:

 

So that comment was in response to this thread here where delta and i where arguing over guns and clowns. I made a post that if you check to read you will see contains a great deal of hyperbole. However i mean everything i said in it. It is not in reference to.....wanting delta to actually drink bleach...... 

 

 

Because..... you didnt post the full screenshot.....

This clearly coincides with what i just said.

 

[LorenLuke]

Just now, Garnascus said:

Because..... you didnt post the full screenshot.....

I did, and what I saw is this-

>Statement that any comment you had made, even if hyperbolic, was sincere
>A quote
>A hyperbolic statement to someone in which you tell them to do something (multiple times) which would be almost invariably fatal.

And then later
>It was a joke.

There's no transition, no reframing, no consideration, and certainly not even time passing (As both your messages and theirs are timestamped with the same minute), where you go from 'if it didn't sound like I was serious, I was' to 'Go kill yourself'.

I don't care if you're the headmin, but the enforcement of the rules might (sad reality); if I were to tell someone to kill themselves in the discord, or on the forums, I'd be out on my ear so damn fast. And I doubt if I used the excuse 'Oh, come on... It was a JOKE! The person should have messaged me first before ahelping/going to a mod', I also guaran-damn-tee you that shit would fly about as well as a depleted uranium glider without wings. 

Ya done did something that would have gotten anyone else banned, pointedly speaking, so why are you trying to hide behind an excuse that would never work in a ban appeal?

[Garnascus]

I mean if delta doesnt find that personally humorous i just wont say it to him. Its pretty simple.

12 minutes ago, LorenLuke said:

I don't care if you're the headmin, but the enforcement of the rules might (sad reality); if I were to tell someone to kill themselves in the discord, or on the forums,

I know you're real excited to try to play gotchas with me but you need to understand a few things. 

1. i figured i was reasoning pretty fairly that with the gun jokes and me "being an american" we where at a certain level of insults.

2. I also feel like.... drinking bleach isnt actually a way to kill yourself. I feel like theres a gross difference between FUCKING KILL YOURSELF and DRINK BLEACH unless you're just trying to be un-charitable.

None of this is really important though. If hes not cool with it i just wont do it. Though like i said i would have preferred he PM me. 

[LorenLuke]

7 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

I also feel like.... drinking bleach isnt actually a way to kill yourself. I feel like theres a gross difference between FUCKING KILL YOURSELF and DRINK BLEACH unless you're just trying to be un-charitable.

When 3 fluid ounces of the active ingredient in bleach is enough to be lethal to a 100kg person, it's very, very, very lethal. You now know this. If I were to say (with similar capitalization) GO PLAY IN TRAFFIC, JUMP OFF A BRIDGE, GO STEP IN FRONT OF A TRAIN, SLIT YOUR WRISTS, EAT A GUN, etc., I personally (maybe not everyone) see no difference between that and your statement of 'FUCKING KILL YOURSELF'. 

8 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

None of this is really important though. 

It absolutely is. 'Go do this extremely lethal (or at very least if it doesn't kill you, will severely maim you) thing' isn't a nice thing to say to someone. 
Period, full stop, end of story, 'Why are we having this discussion?'.

[Lady Fowl]

4 hours ago, LorenLuke said:

When 3 fluid ounces of the active ingredient in bleach is enough to be lethal to a 100kg person, it's very, very, very lethal. You now know this. If I were to say (with similar capitalization) GO PLAY IN TRAFFIC, JUMP OFF A BRIDGE, GO STEP IN FRONT OF A TRAIN, SLIT YOUR WRISTS, EAT A GUN, etc., I personally (maybe not everyone) see no difference between that and your statement of 'FUCKING KILL YOURSELF'. 

It absolutely is. 'Go do this extremely lethal (or at very least if it doesn't kill you, will severely maim you) thing' isn't a nice thing to say to someone. 
Period, full stop, end of story, 'Why are we having this discussion?'.

Are you involved in this directly?

Going to post this here for now, do not post unless you are actually involved in the issue, just being a bystander is not reason enough to comment

[Scheveningen]

I'm back early, apparently. Sorry if you were expecting 24 hours, everyone.
 @DRagO I did not ask for @LorenLuke to chip in per se, but everything they've posted so far is pretty on-board to what I would've said as a rebuttal regarding the acceptability of telling people to kill/do harm to themselves. I'd argue their posts as of now should stay up, as they've said their fair say, though if they wish to comment on other facets of the future complaint they should consider holding their piece and talking to me on discord if they have things to say or suggest as salient points. I still think Loren was far more constructive in his response than Garn was, which is a little disappointing but I'll take what I can get.

I understand that dog-piling is a problem, but if you were here for that discussion round-about 8ish hours ago, I encourage you to say your fair say as well. I believe @Doc,  @Kryostro, @SHODAN, and @Coalf were the notable individuals present that witnessed this unfold in public, and I would personally value any of their piece they have to say here, if they want.

I generally do not divulge personal information of things that happen in my life, nor do I find the value of allegorical evidence to be very high, but I find that this will contextualize my motivations better, and why I responded in the "nuclear fashion". I had a friend who dealt with a lot of relentless bullying in high school because they were an innately nervous person who stuttered a lot. They didn't have many friends and the amount of relentless "teasing" or "joking" eventually got to them. They chose bleach because it was the most common thing suggested to them. They never made alive to the hospital, despite the paramedics' best efforts. As mentioned prior, it only takes 3 oz to almost irreparably destroy your internal organs. It was described to me that it's incredibly painful and a relatively slow death in the perspective of the victim.  I think the worst part about it was how the majority of people who were responsible for driving my friend into an incredible depression and eventually their suicide, was that they claimed they were making "off-color jokes" and nobody was "meant" to take them seriously. Some of them even lied and insinuated that they were friends with them.

I don't care if you didn't know, Garn, considering how it isn't an excuse, and the expectation for you as an admin and representative of the server (if not a person who values civil discourse) is to, at the very least, not downplay or joke about suicide, if we are only referring to what to takeaway from this situation. I'm aware there are many other said and unsaid expectations and standards, but I find it unlikely that "don't tell people to drink bleach" is difficult to grasp in your role as an admin. Not even a player would get away with that whether it was a """joke""" or not, all things considered, if that helps contextualize why this is being taken to the degree it has.
 

Quote

I mean i could post logs of some of the crazy shit you've PMed to me but i dont want to get into it with you. I made a joke with you that you didnt like. Just PM me and i would have said "hey man thats my bad" instead you ran to the forums. Yeah i do not care to discuss anything with you.

I think you should stop character assassinating and attempting to gaslight me. You're really quick to characterize me as the crazy person here, I don't know if this is your meltdown where you intentionally are acting abrasive and ultra-defensive on purpose, but it's genuinely not wanted. I think the viewers of this thread and the staff reviewing it should be the ones to decide who or what is exactly crazy, considering you were the one who DMed me first. I will respect the rules of the forums, discord and overall community here, even if you will not. I also care about transparency, responsibility and accountability, even if you do not. I will post the DM logs between us. You initially reached out to me prior to me deciding I wanted to go get my errands for the week done early.

 

Spoiler

"Sorry" was only mentioned once, straight after the accusation that I am "so bipolar", which is a ad hominem, psychoanalysis and attempted gaslighting balled up into one. I'm curious as to how you think you have a better understanding of my mental state than I do. I certainly could've handled that discussion better, but my priority at the time was getting away from my phone/computer in addition to you. The way you chose to handle the discussion in DMs made me think you were only reaching out to me simply to harass, especially considering your first thing you had to say was "Why didn't you do this or that, why are you refusing to debate me?" I didn't ask you to reach out to me, for example, I made this complaint for a reason. I know how discussing issues works with you, in that the winning move is to never directly talk to you because of your extreme tendency to get defensive, deflect responsibility and accept little to no fault for anything you're involved in. You are often more interested in arguing for the fun of it rather than arguing to resolve and fix issues. 

To digress, there is a pretty clear and self-evident difference between light-hearted banter, and then full out aggressive statements inciting people to do harm to themselves, and as a staff member of 4 years running you should probably know better by now. There was a line, and rather than skirting it like you think you did, you kangaroo jumped straight over it and hollered all the way down.

I view it that you broke a very important rule as a staff member, and you should be held accountable for it. The server rule specifically:



The discord rule from which is inspired from the server rule:



I personally view it that you should not be the head admin. I can imagine that dealing with the worst of the community starts to take its toll on people, but it's just kind of jarring and weird to see you behave in a manner that the server rules try to discourage. But my opinion's worth as much as people are willing to take it, the other head staff's opinions and views on this issue are generally far worth more than mine while we're on this topic, though. I'd be seriously disappointed if you got a slap on the wrist, considering your recent complaints and the things you've said in deadchat/OOC/discord/the forums prove that there's a consistent problem going on here.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Scheveningen]

Maybe I said something that gave people the wrong impression; if you were not here for the situation I am outlining, do not fucking post, please. If you only have something marginally relevant because Garn spanked you once and you have a grudge to carry out, do not fucking post, please. 

I use the word 'fucking' because that's the first thing that catches people's eye to read, in addition to the bold text. The intent is to be respectful, but serious. It is not every day an admin tells someone else to "go commit die" and this is a heavily polarizing and easily frustrating issue. It is very easy to be tempted into wanting to post a very hot take that has little to do with the core bit of this complaint, but please restrain yourselves. Thank you.

[Scheveningen]

Public testimony from a former head admin regarding not-so-distant policy in terms of conduct of what is expected from the community. Staff are part of the community and as such, are beholden to the same standards, if not moreso egregious given their high standing, importance and source of inspiration to other members of the community.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Garnascus]

So, are you holding this complaint now with the hope of me getting removed from the team or something else?

[Rushodan]

Hi, I was there for this and I did my standard shit of taking the moral high ground and asking people to cut it out.

 

All im going to say is this, on a public discord people might not have the context to what you are saying, not everyone will be your friend or possibly understand the banter going on. So while in a group of people you know and understand fuck it, banter is good. All kinds of jokes can come out in those private settings. However, in public it sets a pretty bad precedent for someone to hop onto the Aurora discord and see that conversation ongoing - from a headmin no less.

 

I've been in and around psych hospitals and honestly I don't appreciate that kind of humour. Does Garn need to be removed for something like this? No. Do we need a reminder that what you say in public can be interpretated in different ways by different people? Possibly. 

 

I have no doubt in my mind that Garn was not being serious, but perhaps we just need to be more conscious of others. 

[Garnascus]

7 minutes ago, SHODAN said:

Hi, I was there for this and I did my standard shit of taking the moral high ground and asking people to cut it out.

 

All im going to say is this, on a public discord people might not have the context to what you are saying, not everyone will be your friend or possibly understand the banter going on. So while in a group of people you know and understand fuck it, banter is good. All kinds of jokes can come out in those private settings. However, in public it sets a pretty bad precedent for someone to hop onto the Aurora discord and see that conversation ongoing - from a headmin no less.

 

I've been in and around psych hospitals and honestly I don't appreciate that kind of humour. Does Garn need to be removed for something like this? No. Do we need a reminder that what you say in public can be interpretated in different ways by different people? Possibly. 

 

I have no doubt in my mind that Garn was not being serious, but perhaps we just need to be more conscious of others. 

I guess i dont really disagree with any of this. I did not seriously mean for delta to drink bleach. 

[Scheveningen]

15 minutes ago, SHODAN said:

Hi, I was there for this and I did my standard shit of taking the moral high ground and asking people to cut it out.

 

All im going to say is this, on a public discord people might not have the context to what you are saying, not everyone will be your friend or possibly understand the banter going on. So while in a group of people you know and understand fuck it, banter is good. All kinds of jokes can come out in those private settings. However, in public it sets a pretty bad precedent for someone to hop onto the Aurora discord and see that conversation ongoing - from a headmin no less.

 

I've been in and around psych hospitals and honestly I don't appreciate that kind of humour. Does Garn need to be removed for something like this? No. Do we need a reminder that what you say in public can be interpretated in different ways by different people? Possibly. 

 

I have no doubt in my mind that Garn was not being serious, but perhaps we just need to be more conscious of others. 

Telling people to kill themselves is not banter, nor is it harmless banter. Someone telling another person to drink bleach is engaging in harassment. I refuse to believe that suggestions to suicide are passable as jokes.

Precedent has been set that players have been banned under similar pretenses. Staff members have responsibility, not privilege and exemption from the very same rules they're expected to abide by and enforce.

Adding more wheels to the cart does not compel the horse to do its job and pull the cart (especially if said horse is pulling the cart for four years straight and decides all of a sudden to tell people to drink bleach). Replacing the horse fixes the problem if the issue isn't with the cart. Giving leniency to someone for doing the exact same thing that many others have been banned for (rusty_shackleford's case is an example) is not fairness, it does not show that the rules actually protect you from harassment in the case of a staff member doing it. 

"but perhaps we just need to be more conscious of others." This is already the standard. You do not tell people to drink bleach, kill themselves or do harm to themselves in any fashion.

[Scheveningen]

57 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

So, are you holding this complaint now with the hope of me getting removed from the team or something else?

I'm waiting for other staff members to address it.

[Garnascus]

5 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Telling people to kill themselves is not banter, nor is it harmless banter. Someone telling another person to drink bleach is engaging in harassment. I refuse to believe that suggestions to suicide are passable as jokes.

Thats fine. That is your opinion and like i said i will keep that in mind for the future. As i said my actual group of friends engages in this humor all the time. That is my mistake for thinking its common place.

8 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Precedent has been set that players have been banned under similar pretenses. Staff members have responsibility, not privilege and exemption from the very same rules they're expected to abide by and enforce.

No actually and i have access to notes and administration info so i know you're just wrong. Not a single has been banned for one off-color joke. If that was true i would have banned you from the community when you insinuated i was a pedophile. People get banned for long histories of repeated abuse. If you think i qualify for that well, thats fine. I will let the team decide that. 

[Scheveningen]

I didn't tell you to drink bleach. False equivalency.

[Coalf]

I was there and I don't have much to say besides what was already said here.

Argument A:
In short, I believe anything without proper context can be taken the wrong way and with text, we always have to assume someone is lacking in context, people come and go, there is no way to portray mood with a tone of voice, etc.

I think we start with the concept of social grouping. Every social group has unspoken conducts which are just "plain common sense" (which is subjective), the only difference is, our grouping has a few of these rules written out in rules section, while others remain unspoken.

And in this social ruling is the crux of the problem. You see jokes about suicide/death have always been an on/off thing depending on the context and whoever is currently present in chat. People will say things like "drink bleach" are bad and horrible, but then turn around and say "die" or "perish".  (This is a hypothetical example and will be expanded on later.)
Ultimately this is why I don't care about these words, almost each time someone takes a defensive stance they're a hypocrite who has done that exact same thing in the past, just in a way they personally consider harmless or just a joke. In my personal opinion if someone as far into self-harming tendencies, as to commit self-harm when a phrase is uttered in this context, then they were just looking for justification and would have done it regardless of the word being spoken, just for a different reason.
Yes, you should always avoid becoming that reason, however, when a building collapses you don't put the blame on the person who pushed it, but the architects who designed it and the builders who build it this way.

Argument B:

YET!
I know for a fact that head admins are aware that there might be people at risk in the playerbase due to past events in the history of adminstaff. To end any questions, everyone came out okay and no I won't tell you who, when and what.
And this is where the "No u" card gets pulled. If context matters, then why wasn't the context of the chat considered?
You know you're in a public space, you know the people who might take it seriously are around, you know you are in a chatroom where joking tones and sarcasm are hard to express. Yet somehow this context doesn't matter, but your context of "it was a joke" does? But why?

The whole point of my argument hinges on these examples:
ex. 1) 2017-18 we struck people for saying "kys" even in a joking context because "Suicide isn't a joke." Most people who are here can most likely also remember that time, some even campaigned for that rule. Here the rule of "context" didn't matter.
ex. 2) Menown/Ornias posts that Skull had an issue with "Take a long walk off of a short pier" yet he can be seen today quoting people and saying "die" daily, but here the rule of "context" is being applied.
ex. 3) Plenty of people who have issues with "Drink Bleach" also quote others with "Die", here again, context will be claimed.
ex.4) Here Garn is saying "Drink bleach" as a fuck-off we all know that, however when Ziy told burger to "go kill himself", can't it also be claimed that the phrase was being used in such context? Why was that a valid strike but here "context" is a valid excuse?
Addendum to ex. 4) Garn continues saying that drinking bleach is fine, that it'll just give you a tummyache and to just block him if you're offended. (Again joking context can be applied), but at the same time how come this isn't a valid option when other people say offensive things in a joking manner? For example, the bust on the word "trap", if people were upset with it why not just block the people who used the word? Again, inconsistency.

These examples have something in common, you know what? Inconsistency.
Sometimes context matters, sometimes it doesn't. Players are measured with a different tape than staff. What is peak humor for one is an atrocity for another and etc. etc. etc.

In Closing:
Context is important. However, if you want people to take this argument seriously, you need to stop having two different standards for context.
Stop making the "Don't be a dick rule" be an "I was looking for an excuse to ban you because you annoy me rule". Staff and Players should be measured with the same tape and punished in the same way.
Being honest is fine as is having your own moral core, however, if you wrote the rules then you shouldn't be breaking them because technically they align with what you think is right.
Banning words is vaccinated, there are a million dogwhistles for any word that you ban. Whip the horse, not the cart.

[Alberyk]

I will handle this. If you are not involved or have anything to add, or you are planning on making a joke/shit, don't post.

[Garnascus]

So, anyway.

After thinking about this some more here are some things. 

I should not have said this and i am sorry. I am not going to argue whether or not this is an acceptable thing to joke about. My real life friends and i make these cracks at each other all the time. Maybe that makes me a terrible person in some people's eyes. OK. The main take-away here is that its not appropriate for aurora. I can easily respect that. My DMs are open if you want to talk about this some more. 

 

[Scheveningen]

I appreciate you gave this more thought and took responsibility where it was due.

I admit there were some in-the-process things where I went wrong, and thus didn't really give you an opportunity to do anything other than put you on the defensive. This doesn't make what you did OK, but either way I'm wanting the complaint to be dropped for now. If there are issues I have with you in the future they'll be handled more tactfully.

[Alberyk]

Alright, sorry for the delay.

Taking in consideration what was said, and prior staff action on this, I don't really think that telling someone to drink bleach like that is acceptable.

I will return soon with some resolution on this, after talking a bit more with the proper parties.