Remove stunbatons from officer loadouts

[kyres1]

Suggestion : Remove stunbatons from officer loadouts, leave three in riot storage.

Why?

1. Security's standard loadout is more than equipped to deal with crew threats so long as they are not heavily armed, heavily armored, have atmos protection, etc. The stunbaton simply provides the final piece in this kit, and has ended up becoming the immediate choice for most any scenario.

For clarity on this : If you're decently prepared, you can easily take on 1 officer and his cadet buddy with the standard security kit. It's SS13, the ways to kill people are as limited as your creativity.

2. Stunbatons are largely unethical and are not the proper response to most common things seen on station. You ought to have three stages : lethal, less-than-lethal, and non-lethal. Stunbatons easily fall into the lethal category, and if not put the person into severe horrific agony to the point where they're unable to move, often knocked unconscious. The paralyzing effect of stunbatons is a side effect of literally being shocked, so.

 

3. Stunbatons enable counterplay to highly lethal things seen in game that would normally require the armory to be opened to ward off. No, it is not smart to robust the crap out of the heavily armed mercenary that just walked into your department because you have a stunbaton. Yes, it is entirely possible mechanically. Yes, it will, and has happened more times than anybody could possibly remember.

 

This is ultimately the source of the infamous baton rush that people so despise. It is extremely powerful as an asset and shuts down the following things :

Wizard, who rarely has proper armor. Thanks robe reliance.

Changeling, who has many reasons to never have armor on.

Traitor, who often just can't get armor.

Rev, who often just can't get armor.

And vamp, technically, but they can hulk out and also generally have abilities that go through cuffs.

Finally, literally any IC conflict that could easily endanger the life of an officer between them and another person. No, the 7 and a half foot Vaurca is not intimidating, because I have a stunbaton. No, the potential of this guy having a weapon is not intimidating, because he's not wearing armor and I have a stunbaton.

 

Also, to counteract the fact that stunbatons apparently counter IPCs : They don't. Paralysis doesn't work and, even when active on harm intent, they do less damage than a maglight even with the burn modifier against an IPC. So just use the other thing in your kit normally. Failing that, shoot the thing to death like a normal person because it's a robot.

[Nantei]

Totally agree. Stun batons are basically cattleprods, I cannot think of any private security force that would even consider using something like that. Tasers are used because they are specifically designed to contract muscles, not just pain. I would like to replace it with a telescopic baton that was similar to rubbers in lethality and agony, which feels far more reasonable than the absolute absurd amount of agony damage stunbatons dish out. This also removes the consequence free nature of stunbatons as a weapon, since now you can break bones and such from beating someone, but would take concentrated effort to actually kill anyone still.

 

At the end of the day stunbatons shut down way too many antagonists and completely ruin escalation for them. Just a couple weeks ago I saw a changeling get completely invalidated by one officer confronting them because the officer had a stunbaton. There wasn't a fight, they just got prodded twice and that was it, off to solitary for the rest of the round.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Nantei

[Rushodan]

I wouldn't be in support of this without increasing taser effectiveness against totally unarmored suspects. Currently the way you handle people that are running away is you hit them with the taser once or twice to slow them down, use the baton feature to knock them down so that cuffs can be applied.

Unlike real life there is no way to tackle someone who is full running away from you, unlike real life people who are tazed are still able to effectively fight back, spam disarm or resist and ultimately be a pain in the ass to deal with. Stop trying to use how something would work in real life to take a piece of equipment away that honestly I think security need. It /used/ to be the flash before it got made almost useless, so now we have to resort to the baton.

Stunbatons are not lethal? I could go for less than lethal, sure. But a tapping someone with a stunbaton is no way lethal force. It bloody hurts and it puts you down, but then again the only time it should be used is when people are actively fighting with sec or trying to evade them.

Finally every antag you have mentioned has ways to deal with being batoned if they plan correctly. Many of them can deploy less than lethal or even lethal methods to dispatch Johnny running with his baton out before he even reaches you.

Wizard: Can teleport and can utilize a whole bunch of creative spells to avoid a baton
Changeling: Has an ability to make stuns not work at all
Traitor: Can literally buy armor, as well as a whole bunch of gear to stop sec getting close (a holstered .357 can prevent a baton rush really well)
Rev: Should be working in a large enough group that makes a single guy with a baton non effective. Again numbers and secrecy are their friend.
Vamp: Flash people that get close, as well as other abilities.

If we don't like the baton being used, lets change security S.O.P as to when it can be deployed instead of blanket taking it away.

The only alternative I can think of would be to modify the tazer so that its either single or dual shot, and have it instantly bring people down like it is real life. That way we don't need the baton and antags will have more room to get around a low capacity weapon that doesn't work against voidsuits or any kind of thick clothing / armor.

EDIT:

I shamelessly stole this from the forums. But I wouldn't mind having the stunbaton removed if the below was true:

Edited July 6, 2019 by SHODAN
See above

[Brutishcrab51]

No.

 

Even Police Officers have batons, or telescopic batons. I fully disagree with removing stunbatons if you don't want to give them some sort of replacement. All police have a "melee" weapon, utilized in an escalation scale as a part of their training, because tasers don't always work and not all situations require you to shoot someone. This is dumb.

[AmoryBlaine]

Everything is situational in the loadout, if an officer is abusing his equipment, fucking ahelp.

If a genetic horror is being BTFO by a stunprod, maybe buff that fucker up not to be fucked over by the baton. 
If the rev is suffering to batons, maybe give them a reliable means to acquiring ranged weapons- IE, makeshift firearms, which for some reason no one has picked up to fix and make viable. Or, add a type of armor that deals with blocking electrical currents or something. Have it as an engineering item which is used during electrical work, work over the torso.
Traitors, Mercs, Wiznerds, and Ninjas already have ranged weapons in spades, and the capacity to not outright fight security in order to do their antag duties, so who gives a shit if you get dome'd as traitor. You probably didn't play your cards right and did something to open up the chance and reason for it. If not, you were probably valid hunted. Ahelp it.

 

11 hours ago, kyres1 said:

1. Security's standard loadout is more than equipped to deal with crew threats so long as they are not heavily armed, heavily armored, have atmos protection, etc. The stunbaton simply provides the final piece in this kit, and has ended up becoming the immediate choice for most any scenario.

Yes, so don't fuck with the loadout. No, I'm not going to use pepperspray against the majority of people, because it very easily goes right back in your own face. No, I'm not going to use the flash because just as bad as a person resisting arrest, is one erratically swinging their arms and legs around wildly because I've blinded them. No, the taser is a piece of shit, that even if fixed is a ranged weapon, so if you make it not shit, you are just further enabling validhunting so I don't even need to close the gap before dropping someone non-lethally. 

11 hours ago, kyres1 said:

2. Stunbatons are largely unethical and are not the proper response to most common things seen on station. You ought to have three stages : lethal, less-than-lethal, and non-lethal. Stunbatons easily fall into the lethal category, and if not put the person into severe horrific agony to the point where they're unable to move, often knocked unconscious. The paralyzing effect of stunbatons is a side effect of literally being shocked, so.

You know what else are largely unethical and not a proper response to most common things seen on station, and have three levels of engagement? Fists. Human hands. Remove the baton and you open the door to way more Officer v. J. Doe beat downs. And what about pepperspray? How is pepperspray, which leaves you largely incapable of breathing, blinded and in pain- which lingers, forever- mind you, a better alternative to being prodded with a jolt of energy which numbs you briefly. Flash has the capacity to blind one of the races, luckily, you shouldn't be trying to arrest them without a riot suit in the first place.

 

Overall, if you want to argue ethics, I suggest you consider the fact that of all the equipment we have, the stunprod is the least damaging. Your issue is that it drops people faster than most guns.

11 hours ago, kyres1 said:

3. Stunbatons enable counterplay to highly lethal things seen in game that would normally require the armory to be opened to ward off. No, it is not smart to robust the crap out of the heavily armed mercenary that just walked into your department because you have a stunbaton. Yes, it is entirely possible mechanically. Yes, it will, and has happened more times than anybody could possibly remember.

Ahelp it. Don't spit in my drink, just because someone spit in your's.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Amory why are you getting so emotional about this?

This would be a good change. There is a consistent meta for officers in equipment because the stun baton is the great catch-all. Even when it runs out of charge you can beat someone senseless with it. Making it an armory item would leave officers with the othe lr tools that are much harder to accidentally or intentionally maul someone with. While eager security players will immediately open the armory to retrieve them, having them in the armory will make their use more easily policed.

[AmoryBlaine]

6 minutes ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

This would be a good change. There is a consistent meta for officers in equipment because the stun baton is the great catch-all. Even when it runs out of charge you can beat someone senseless with it. Making it an armory item would leave officers with the othe lr tools that are much harder to accidentally or intentionally maul someone with. While eager security players will immediately open the armory to retrieve them, having them in the armory will make their use more easily policed.

None of what you said engaged my points. It's not 'meta' to use the only tool that works. It's common sense. If it runs out of charge, and you still haven't dealt with that person, you probably should be beating them at that point or shooting them with a gun. Would you prefer they went and got the gun? Again, you didn't address any of what I said, maybe you're cool with be maced, I'm not. A jolt and numbness is much more preferable to searing pain in my eyes and panic. If your concern is being beaten with the baton- again, if you take it, I'm just going to crack your head open with the maglight or my fist, if you start trying to fight me. That or shoot you. So take your pick. Removing the baton just makes non-lethal arrests harder, and pushes for more lethal situations.

[Resilynn]

I like this change. It forces security to second guess if they can/should just charge a foe. 

A great recent example I can think of- bygone’s assistant got xenomicrobe’d. The captain (played by Xander that round) ordered the alien Queen in a miniskirt desperately flailing for help and trying to communicate with an engineer and Cato tech friend detained for research- ok, totally acceptable because of directive 4. The captain specified nonlethal, please. 

 

Which is when all of seurity whipped out their stun batons and started torturing (it’s pain crit, you can’t argue it’s not torture) the thing, shoving aside the people talking the assistant-alien-Queen down, forcing bygone to escalate because otherwise he was just repeatedly being prodded to the floor wordlessly- and then they immediately justified his retaliation as a reason to escalate to lethal force. 

Seurity don’t NEED to immediately out-arm antags, especially before even opening the armory. They have a cargo department and science department that can make/order things for them. They SHOULD be hesitant to get into fights. 

Not only does limiting their loadout force them to second guess if they should go stun baton a thing down until it’s secure in the brig, it also forces them to actually interact pleasantly with the crew to get more snazzy weapons. 

+100000

[AmoryBlaine]

1 minute ago, Resilynn said:

Seurity don’t NEED to immediately out-arm antags, especially before even opening the armory. They have a cargo department and science department that can make/order things for them. They SHOULD be hesitant to get into fights. 

Right, because we should have Security ordering lethal munitions and heavier hardware. Because we need prototype scattershot laser rifles from RnD.

 

3 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Not only does limiting their loadout force them to second guess if they should go stun baton a thing down until it’s secure in the brig, it also forces them to actually interact pleasantly with the crew to get more snazzy weapons. 

Again, why are you focusing on up'ing the ante. Why should the options be, "blundering moron" and "operator". I don't want to go from trying to use pepperspray on people to "pretty please cargo please order me a combat shotgun ty". If you're removing the capacity for security to use batons when they're needed, that stage of non-lethalness is going to be circumvented, whether you like it or not.

9 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Which is when all of seurity whipped out their stun batons and started torturing (it’s pain crit, you can’t argue it’s not torture) the thing, shoving aside the people talking the assistant-alien-Queen down, forcing bygone to escalate because otherwise he was just repeatedly being prodded to the floor wordlessly- and then they immediately justified his retaliation as a reason to escalate to lethal force. 

Wow, this almost sounds like it's something that should be dealt with OOCly, and not used as a basis for removing an item. If you start being wordlessly attacked in any capacity, that's a reason to ahelp.

[AmoryBlaine]

11 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

I like this change. It forces security to second guess if they can/should just charge a foe. 

"Should I get my shit kicked in trying to deal with this with pepperspray, or should I get a gun."

[Resilynn]

I’m not responding to you when your tone is this hostile and sarcastic.

I’m still in favor of the change. 

[Rushodan]

I think what Am was trying to say, is that if you want to remove the baton, for whatever reasons, there needs to be something to replace it. A melee option is offered to most security forces today, as well as police if you make the comparison. Either make the taser at point blank do a 'dry stun' (i.e - knock them down for a few seconds) or just keep it how things are.

Honestly, if you are concerned about security rushing things baton without considering RP then yes, Ahelp it. Antags have plenty of ways to get around the baton, we don't need to handhold them. I don't want to have to deploy less than lethals / lethals to deal with one engineer with a voidsuit and I certainly don't want to remove people from the round because my baton was taken away. 

From an IC standpoint, in a station which has easy access to voidsuits which render all other sec starting gear useless (baring the .45) why WOULDN'T they have a baton or something similar?

[Pratepresidenten]

16 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

"Should I get my shit kicked in trying to deal with this with pepperspray, or should I get a gun."

More along the lines of: Should I try negotiating, or regroup and prepare better.

Because as is now its just ungabunga two-prod with the baton and down they go. Even worse if you get the WONDERFUL one-hit knockout.
Im not too sure how that one works code-wise, but Im pretty sure it works through voidsuits and other protective means.

Whats the purpose of security? To act as a counter-antagonist force, to shut down the antags. Either they do it through peaceful means, or violent means, the end is the same. The antag is removed from the round or stripped of their items/power.

Im not sure why you're so opposed to removing/replacing the stunbaton with something or nothing.
Much like the somewhat opposed change of having the AI's intercom as off by default so it wouldnt accidentally ruin its malf plans if it misspoke in local, people would argue "Just turn it off.", while here you argue "Just ahelp."

Once an officer ungabungas the antag, you can ahelp all you want. The round is ruined for said antag, and possibly the entire round, depending on the antag type. You cant void what has been done, but we can prevent it from happening.

The batons are still available in the armory as per OP's suggestion. They're not gone forever.

[Rushodan]

I still want an answer to dealing with voidsuits.

As HoS can I just deploy the tranq rifle if someone if resisting arrest, or what steps would I use to deal with an engineering fighting sec for example? Would a .45 deployment be acceptable here?

I understand how the baton can be used to instantly shutdown antags, and it sucks. But I do want something perhaps to deal with voidsuit personnel. One time that sticks in my mind is when an engineer attacked me when I was playing HoS, think it was rev. I tried using all my non lethal gear but none of it worked, including my taser deployment on their voidsuit. In the end I had to break their legs by using my telebaton to make them stop...which kind of sucked for us both. I don't want an officer to be stuck in this situation is all.

[Pratepresidenten]

7 minutes ago, SHODAN said:

I still want an answer to dealing with voidsuits.

You get a baton or a carbine from the armory.

[Rushodan]

1 minute ago, Pratepresidenten said:

You get a baton or a carbine from the armory.

Alright, fair. But I meant more a voidsuited engineer attacking an officer for x reason. Do they just deploy .45 in that case?

[Resilynn]

Just now, SHODAN said:

Alright, fair. But I meant more a voidsuited engineer attacking an officer for x reason. Do they just deploy .45 in that case?

Wouldn’t they, idk, try to run and get better gear like a normal human?  You don’t have to win every fight right away. 

[Pratepresidenten]

Well, depending on the situation, or if you have backup, you could wrestle/tap him into submission. If he wont surrender peacefully, he brings any pain upon himself.

But as Resi said, and I said in my first post. You regroup and prepare a little better.

[CommanderXor]

If we're so adamant on removing the stunbaton, we need to replace it with a ASP baton. Otherwise we've been doing nothing but slowly stripping security's equipment and nerfing it into the ground. First we made flashes no longer stun, then we removed the pepperspray stun, now we've removing the stunbaton. Is it going to get to the point where the average officer is going to have nothing actually useful and be forced to flee to the armoury at the first sign of an assistant breaking bottles over heads?

[Rushodan]

4 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Wouldn’t they, idk, try to run and get better gear like a normal human?  You don’t have to win every fight right away. 

Not always an option. Like if someone is grabbing an actively beating on you, running away isn't always possible. I had a situation recently where I was killed because I could not get away, they kept dragging and pulling me away from the table I was trying to climb. 

I just don't want sec players being killed because some of their essential gear was removed without a lot of thought into possible replacements.

The reason I am asking for a replacement, is as Xor said it feels like sec gear is slowly being stripped or nerf without much thought into what can be used instead. It's not all baton rushes and antag removal - most of the time it is being used for a valid purpose.

Edited July 7, 2019 by SHODAN

[AmoryBlaine]

4 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

More along the lines of: Should I try negotiating, or regroup and prepare better. 

See, you can do that currently. In fact, to my knowledge, that's actually what is expected. Did you know that charging the mercs with just a baton, when you otherwise have options more reasonable, you can get in shit? Not just IC shit, like being blown apart by guns, but banned. The same can happen with any antag, really. I've seen it happen. Seems to be working so far.

5 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Because as is now its just ungabunga two-prod with the baton and down they go. Even worse if you get the WONDERFUL one-hit knockout.

Who, exactly? Maybe they shouldn't be standing that close to the Officer. Maybe, if that two prod and down, isn't justified, they should ahelp the shitter, rather than try and remove the tool from access to me. At the end of the day, I'm playing here for me. I don't want to be fucked over because some other guy doesn't have any self control.

9 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Whats the purpose of security? To act as a counter-antagonist force, to shut down the antags. Either they do it through peaceful means, or violent means, the end is the same. The antag is removed from the round or stripped of their items/power. 

Im not sure why you're so opposed to removing/replacing the stunbaton with something or nothing.

What something else is being proposed here? Use ranged weapons? Leave the area and get a bigger gun? Go suck up to departments, rather than establish relations with characters? Replace stun prods with telescopic batons? I'm sorry, did we want to make engaging with security into a binary state of peaceful, or all-out lethals, with the two options then being negotiation or a shoot out? Are we still treating Security as an outsider among the crew, as well? It sounds like it. The whole "Wow, Sec needs to learn to be nice to Non-Sec" is just the type of attitude that breeds interdepartmental tension. So maybe @Resilynn shouldn't be partaking in it.

I like being able to not have to kill someone, because my options have been limited to pepperspraying myself, flashing them- also known as "doing fuck all"- or fight them with my fists-- or, you know, as keeps being suggested regrouping, IE; "Dude, just let them get away, so they can prepare, and then you can fight equally once you have a gun, and they have force gloves or whatever.". Because that's what regrouping means in this context, this post isn't about security tactics, it's about giving even more fucking leeway to antags, as though they are these incapable children we need to pretend we cannot see when they cover their eyes. If you're failing to escape Security before they baton you, one of two things has taken place, you either lost fairly due to your own fuck up, or they fucked up, and you need to ahelp their behavior. If you're in a situation where you need to use a baton, that situation isn't lasting very long. You either need it or you do not.  I like having that option on hand for when it's acceptable to be used, which- coincidentally- is in the moment, not two minutes from then, after I leave the area to ask the AI, warden or HoS, who may or may not be on during the round if I may have a baton.

20 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Once an officer ungabungas the antag, you can ahelp all you want. The round is ruined for said antag, and possibly the entire round, depending on the antag type. You cant void what has been done, but we can prevent it from happening.

What happens, though, is it doesn't happen again. Because if you do your job correctly, that player isn't going to want to repeat that action, or be capable of it.

6 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Wouldn’t they, idk, try to run and get better gear like a normal human?  You don’t have to win every fight right away. 

What scenario is this in reference to? If it's someone charging something that is going to obliterate them in all reasoning, then ahelp them for acting like a shitter- whether they beat the thing, or are obliterated. Just because they die, doesn't mean they should escape punishment for doing it in the first place.

 

 

 

[Pratepresidenten]

4 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

What happens, though, is it doesn't happen again. Because if you do your job correctly, that player isn't going to want to repeat that action, or be capable of it.

Yes because surely theres a finite amount of shitters out there. A world of billions of people. You should know very damn well, all the times youve ahelped about some shitter. A fair amount of them get banned, yet here they are, still ever present despite of me doing my job correctly.

So the fact that we dont instantly escalate to permabans for one-off bad behaviours, still doesnt mean someone's round wont get ruined because of one baton-hungry dickhead.

You're very misinformed if you think administrative punishment is some wonderous cure-all for bad behaviour. So leave staffing out of this and stick to the suggestion.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

2 hours ago, AmoryBlaine said:

It's not 'meta' to use the only tool that works. It's common sense.

lol ok

[Doxxmedearly]

Stunbaton is an ungabunga instawin (except against sharks) crutch like flash used to be. Switch on, prod twice, congrats you won.

I'd agree the taser/pepperspray could stand to be a little better if winbaton is removed from the starting loadout.

Removing flash as a win button was a boon for the server. Sec had to adapt to having to actually work a little harder. I was maining sec at the time and it was great- I had incentive to use other tools, and learn how to operate the atrocious combat system.

I'd like to see this get a trial run at least. I could only see this being an improvement.

[Scheveningen]

This is the wrong way to go about this. Balance decisions should never be in the manner of "delaying the inevitable", but rather in ensuring entirely that the frustrations in dealing with a contentious tool stop being as prevalent as they are.

Moving them to the armory especially delays the inevitable, so you will find certain officers end up getting passed those batons on blue and red, and then there is no downside to them rushing down a guy with a machinegun. This particular worst-case scenario is the situation we want to append with balance changes, and removing batons from officer closets doesn't stop cumbrain shitcurity officers from doing that.

1. Stun batons have a lot of frontloaded agonyforce, clocking in at 120. Faceshots multiply this by a fair deal.
2. Stun baton capacity is quite ridiculous, because baton prods only consume 1/10th of their capacitor.
3. Harmbatonning in any circumstance is almost always suboptimal compared to disarm stunning, but agony from wounds lasts until treated.

I intend on treating 1 and 2, which will end up softening the impact of #3. Officers may end up being required to combo their taser into their stun baton just to neutralize one person. If they want to up their baton's sustainability, they will need to interact with science.

Moving the batons out of the officer lockers don't really help things, it is removing tools due to frustration being aimed in the wrong direction and for the wrong reasons. I nerfed the revolver and retooled it to work differently in its functionality and intended purpose, rather than outright removing it from availability. I will do the same with the stun baton.

While this may be a roleplay server and many people here are used to theatrics in interaction being over-the-top on purpose, getting owned in combat is meant to be dissatisfying, quick and without a lot of the typical hero-movie romanticism when you actually die. This emulates how gritty, dark and shitty death is in real life. Although I should probably ask a lich on how death actually feels to better amend that statement, that's probably not happening anytime soon. Either way, I'm outright nerfing their stats instead to make them less oppressive and less flexible. The most notable intent of my changes is to outright make it impossible or far below suboptimal to rush a gun-wielding antagonist in armor, with a stun baton.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Scheveningen