Give Paramedics general access

[Kaed]

I don't understand why this PR is taking away janitorial general access when the entire purpose of this thread is simply to give it to EMTs, who generally benefit from it greatly in their job.  We should be thinking less about 'game flow' and 'antagonist balance' in this and more about 'who would realistically need to have general access'.  I also don't see why only one job should have this access level, like it's a unique mantle to bestow upon a single job and none other.

Janitors do, because they are there to clean and maintian, and messes and broken lights happen in every department.

EMTs do, because accidents happen in every department.

It's really as simple as that.  Concerns about 'antags being shut down' by having an EMT show up to help is a very silly arguement - the only possible way an antagonist could be shut down is if the EMT arrives and beats them up, and they are not equipped to do that. Medical can't even find an injured person unless their suit sensors are on, and if the antagonist forgot to change that, it's THEIR problem, not the EMTs, and an AI can and often do camera spot them and shut them down instantly far better than an EMT.

I saw someone mention security general access, and I disagree with that - not because of any antagonist stuff, but because this is supposed to be a workplace, having security officers looming in your department or making rounds through medical/research is disruptive. No long likes a cop standing over them when the cop isn't needed. Most departments ask officers to leave their department if they see them inside without being called, and with the way our security teams usually function you give them general access you'll just get more officers wandering into departments and stubbornly digging their heels in when asked to leave, citing 'i have access tho'

[UnknownMurder]

I do not support this suggestion for my one and only unique reasoning in this thread and another bandwagon reason. This can start creating many unnecessary rulings or/and precedents in the later future of who needs access and who wants access to all or certain departments, "Why do EMT have access to this area but not us, we deserve access!". This is not the first time it has been suggested for a department individual to have access to other departments. See individual security wanting access to other departments, janitors having access to all/most departments. But yes, we should have a middleman for most situation to create RP and to allow antagonist to pull off a grand escapade. Should this suggestion ever get accepted. I dare someone to make a suggestion that allows miners access into R&D because it makes relationships' job easier and I dare someone to allow Roboticists have access to AI Upload because there's AI equipments there, no Director or middleman needed.

[Kaed]

14 minutes ago, UnknownMurder said:

I do not support this suggestion for my one and only unique reasoning in this thread and another bandwagon reason. This can start creating many unnecessary rulings or/and precedents in the later future of who needs access and who wants access to all or certain departments, "Why do EMT have access to this area but not us, we deserve access!". This is not the first time it has been suggested for a department individual to have access to other departments. See individual security wanting access to other departments, janitors having access to all/most departments. But yes, we should have a middleman for most situation to create RP and to allow antagonist to pull off a grand escapade. Should this suggestion ever get accepted. I dare someone to make a suggestion that allows miners access into R&D because it makes relationships' job easier and I dare someone to allow Roboticists have access to AI Upload because there's AI equipments there, no Director or middleman needed.

I can't abide this argument because it is a overly sensationalist slippery slope.  All of the examples you gave are ridiculous extremes, and I would expect that if anyone made these cases it would not be accepted.  Miners don't need to walk into R&D, there's a fucking window right outside it they can talk through.  Roboticists don't need AI upload access, that requires them to walk through the bridge, where they don't need to be, to play with equipment they don't have authority to use without command specifically inviting them.  EMTs need this access to do their JOB, which is transporting injured individuals.  If there's a situation where they can't get to the only person in a department because they're on the other side of a door to a department, injured, that's bad.

People dying because of arbitrary access restrictions is a much higher priority fix than 'miner want to walk into R&D to talk to scientist'

Edited July 22, 2019 by Kaed

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Paramedics always ask for basic access and as hop i always give it. Never found an issue

[AmoryBlaine]

52 minutes ago, Kaed said:

I saw someone mention security general access, and I disagree with that - not because of any antagonist stuff, but because this is supposed to be a workplace, having security officers looming in your department or making rounds through medical/research is disruptive. No long likes a cop standing over them when the cop isn't needed. Most departments ask officers to leave their department if they see them inside without being called, and with the way our security teams usually function you give them general access you'll just get more officers wandering into departments and stubbornly digging their heels in when asked to leave, citing 'i have access tho'

I also suggested letting all of engineering have access. And no, I wouldn't want some engineer pissing around security if he's not actively doing something. But that doesn't mean I don't think his ID should open the front door. The same applies to Sec. If you aren't there for a reason then you shouldn't be there. You can even have a regulation specifically about loitering.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

This thread isnt whataboutisming engineering access or janitorial. Why are these posts obfuscating 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Doc]

The posts are not obfuscating. Arrow has made this thread about janitorial by removing janitorial's access in the PR linked to this thread. References to other departments are, as far as I see, examples.

Anyway. I fully disagree with removing janitorial's general department access. It has not, to my knowledge, been abused in any egregious manner, or frequently, or even at all, really. On the other hand, the janitor requires access to departments to complete the vast majority of their job, and their job is so low-priority that they will rarely receive active assistance in carrying it out. Even though this does not give the janitor direct access to all messes, the janitor being able to say "I saw a mess in X room, can I have access to clean it" is an active, direct request regarding their job in a specific place for a specific reason, and is far more likely to be granted than "there might be a mess in X department, can I have access to wander around and check", a passive, indirect request regarding their job in a vague area for an indistinct reason, which will almost never be granted besides very lenient command staff or department staff who have nothing better to be doing than guide a janitor around.

The paramedic, on the other hand, will near always receive immediate and full assistance in carrying out their duties, because of the high-priority nature of saving crew, which will never be questioned in any real capacity. I can still see the arguments for giving them general access presented here, however, so I'll remain neutral on that.

[Rushodan]

Tbh you can look at this both ways.

Either give everyone basic access to all departments, or give it to nobody. A lot of the times people use the janitor as an excuse to give their department more access, such as security being able to respond faster, emts being able to respond faster, engineers able to respond faster etc.

And, honestly, it really isn't required. As an antag the slight delay that someone has getting into a place because access is pretty strict has actually saved my gimmicks a few times, instead of being one tapped by an EMT or sec.

I think it is fine as is. Leave the janitor able to rp with the different departments, don't give it to EMTs.

[Kaed]

8 hours ago, SHODAN said:

Tbh you can look at this both ways.

Either give everyone basic access to all departments, or give it to nobody. A lot of the times people use the janitor as an excuse to give their department more access, such as security being able to respond faster, emts being able to respond faster, engineers able to respond faster etc.

And, honestly, it really isn't required. As an antag the slight delay that someone has getting into a place because access is pretty strict has actually saved my gimmicks a few times, instead of being one tapped by an EMT or sec.

I think it is fine as is. Leave the janitor able to rp with the different departments, don't give it to EMTs.

... One tapped by an EMT.

When has someone ever been 'one tapped' by an EMT.

What is this thread right now.  They don't even carry weapons.  This is about EMTs getting general access, everyone is making it out like it's part of some grand scheme for all access, or it needs to be, and it will 'set precedents' for the destruction of the departmental sanctity we hold dear for whatever fucking reason right now.

This is one access change.  For one job.  Things can be evaluated based on their individual merits rather than because that guy over there has it.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Kaed

[tzeneth]

11 hours ago, Kaed said:

... One tapped by an EMT.

When has someone ever been 'one tapped' by an EMT.

What is this thread right now.  They don't even carry weapons.  This is about EMTs getting general access, everyone is making it out like it's part of some grand scheme for all access, or it needs to be, and it will 'set precedents' for the destruction of the departmental sanctity we hold dear for whatever fucking reason right now.

This is one access change.  For one job.  Things can be evaluated based on their individual merits rather than because that guy over there has it.

That's incorrect. This is about two access changes which SHOULD be talked about separately. This is a change to EMT and a change to Janitor. One is adding and the other removing access. That's part of the reason the discussion is about who has and doesn't have access because it's a change to two different positions.

[Kaed]

1 hour ago, tzeneth said:

That's incorrect. This is about two access changes which SHOULD be talked about separately. This is a change to EMT and a change to Janitor. One is adding and the other removing access. That's part of the reason the discussion is about who has and doesn't have access because it's a change to two different positions.

No, this thread is only about EMT access. Not once is the subject of janitor access even mentioned in the original post except as a comparative statement to what access level they want EMTs to have.

Someone derailed the topic by linking a different thread and suddenly janitor access was being debated about.

[tzeneth]

9 hours ago, Kaed said:

No, this thread is only about EMT access. Not once is the subject of janitor access even mentioned in the original post except as a comparative statement to what access level they want EMTs to have.

Someone derailed the topic by linking a different thread and suddenly janitor access was being debated about.

Ah, that's my remembering incorrectly then. I came to this specific section because the git log pull requested both and linked here.

Edited July 24, 2019 by tzeneth

[Scheveningen]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6768

Yes, janitorial access is relevant to this thread because the related PR to this issue wants to remove janitorial access while granting EMT access. It is not derailing this thread trying to discuss janitor access.

[Fortelian]

I have never played janitor or EMT on Aurora before but I intend to and to me it seems that in a realistic job a janitor would have general access; however, I still do agree that paramedics should be given general access. If HoP's give it out roundstart, and you disagree with them having general access, then it would only make sense to want to stop the HoP''s from giving it to paramedics. 

 

+1 (But keep general access for janitors)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Very weird....

[Fortelian]

What is very weird? The suspense is too much.

[Carver]

On 22/07/2019 at 10:38, AmoryBlaine said:

I also suggested letting all of engineering have access. And no, I wouldn't want some engineer pissing around security if he's not actively doing something. But that doesn't mean I don't think his ID should open the front door. The same applies to Sec. If you aren't there for a reason then you shouldn't be there. You can even have a regulation specifically about loitering.

You've summed up my thoughts to a t.

[Nantei]

The janitor thing really derailed this. I'd like to bump it, because I still think EMT's should have general access. I don't even try to run for a xenobio if I don't have access, because I'll never make it in time. Science/Security commonly have injuries that are time prohibitive. At the very least general science should be given for the same reason mining was. Common injury area that is very time sensitive.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Nantei

[BRAINOS]

huge agree, what access janitors have is irrelevant to the fact it's impossible to justify, IC, that EMT's don't have access to departments main areas when, again, the issues they face are literal matters of life and death.

over the 10 or so years i have played this game, I have not even ONCE seen a lone EMT stop a nuke ops, ling or even a single traitor on the account of "they could open the door."

even the argument that limited access promotes interaction is bonkers. what interaction? "OPEN THE FUCKING DOOR YOUR GUY IS DYING IN THERE," and a guy opens the door. the emt rushes in without even time for a thank you and grabs the injured. that's... hardly interaction. seriously. i am all for driving meaningful RP interaction, but this ain't it, chief

emt's having limited access kills low pop playability. emt's having limited access can kill characters canonically. i repeat, this can kill characters canonically all because the EMT couldn't open a door for a guy with a DNC in time after some kind of dumb accident, or a space carp, or a scrubbers event. that's fucked and hardly helps drive a story with a death like that.

it's hard to justify emt's limited access OOC and impossible to justify it IC.

fix it.

Edited October 9, 2019 by BRAINOS

[Natiform]

yeah, brainos basically summed up my thoughts on this. if HoP's are happy to give EMTs basic access at the start of the shift, then that just feels like an extra step that just really doesn't need to be there.

if i find out a DNC friend died canonically because an EMT simply didn't have access, you'll never hear the end of it from me.

this slippery slope comparative earlier in the thread is just kind of mind boggling. i've never seen a reasonable argument with slippery slope commentary. comparing engineers to doctors just flat out doesn't make sense as engineering matters are almost never as time sensitive as EMT matters. again, we're talking literal life and death here.

also, like... noah fence but if your antag gimmick would be ruined by an emt having basic access then maybe its not a great gimmick

[Carver]

One can logically argue for the presence of most roles being the difference between life or death. Engineers stopping a fire in time without having to hack a door, Security stopping an attempted murder without having to yell for an AI, the Chef delivering a juicy burger to the mouth of a starving man without having to hit the buzzer a thousand times. Like I've said, make 'general access' a universal concept and I'd support it. Otherwise it's just a slippery slope of 'If X has this, why doesn't Y have this?' which is why the Janitor as an example was brought up in the very first place.

[Nantei]

I don't like slippery slope arguments, and I don't think it applies here, especially given the pushback giving EMT's what many see as a reasonable change. Look how long it took for EMT's to get mining access. EMT is special in that they help keep players in a round. Security helps keep people out of a round, which is why they are better off not having general access. People not dying is 9/10 times better than people dying. Anyone can put out a fire, very few people have the life saving equipment on hand that an EMT requires, let alone the expertise to use it.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I support this. Emts are good for antags and nonantags in keeping them alive.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Carver]

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

EMT is special in that they help keep players in a round. People not dying is 9/10 times better than people dying. Anyone can put out a fire, very few people have the life saving equipment on hand that an EMT requires, let alone the expertise to use it.

The examples (other than the Chef) I provided were of those who keep people from dying. Firefighting Engineers and Security stopping an attempted murderer are both equally valid at preventing deaths as the EMT who usually only comes in because the latter two may have been delayed and unable to stop what caused such grievous injury. From a logical perspective, I stand by 'give it to all' or 'give it to none'.

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

Security helps keep people out of a round, which is why they are better off not having general access.

This in particular is a direct lie, seeing as they're the only ones directly capable of and trained for stopping an active shooter or dealing with an outbreak of spiders or the like. An excellent job proving your bias, at the least.

[Nantei]

3 hours ago, Carver said:

This in particular is a direct lie, seeing as they're the only ones directly capable of and trained for stopping an active shooter or dealing with an outbreak of spiders or the like. An excellent job proving your bias, at the least.

Security arrests/kills antags, taking them out of the round. It's just a fact of life. I did not say that's a necessarily bad thing. Also security is my most played role, so I am a bit baffled as to how you could think I have a negative bias against it.