Removal of Secborgs

[Snakebittenn]

Title.
Secborgs contribute basically nothing to the average round, being often extremely sparse in roleplay and high in validhunting. Instead of solving 90000 potential bad borgs, all it takes is to just remove it, so that more constructive modules can be enjoyed.
In relation to https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6733

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

What are your specific qualms?

[Chada1]

Okay, there is no soft way to put this, so straight to the point, the Security Module should be removed. I will explain why in a paragraph, but it has a lot to do with what a Cyborg is, and how they should influence rounds.

Let's assume that Cyborgs are designed to aid the Station and Crew in its daily function, there are few if any cases where a specific Security Cyborg would be called for, it's a needlessly specialized module, that if following NT Default Laws, can almost never see use against Station Crewmembers. Only if one Crewmember is threatening another can they then use their baton to pacify a threat. 

Other than that it can barely function without violating its laws in a normal round? A 'borg module should not be specifically geared towards shutting down Antagonists. Why is this? Because 'borgs are meant to support rounds and the round progression, not conclude it. A Security 'borg for this reason is ultimately counterproductive and even creates a stereotype that Cyborgs shouldn't roleplay, or do not roleplay.

Cyborgs should have utility roles, roles assisting the Crew and repairing the Station, where their laws are conducive to roleplay rather than unfavorable for it.

Continuing on. In Malf AI rounds, the Malf can unlock the Combat Module when it begins to need actual Combat units, and Paradox has added Cuffs to it. So, it doesn't need the Security module. Traitor 'borgs will be plenty potent as many of the other modules, so they don't need this module either.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Chada1
Continuing on.

[Scheveningen]

There's a funny saying. "The only thing worse than a borg main is a sec main. The only thing worse than a sec main is a borg sec main."

Unfortunately, these both have the air of truth to it, and secborgs tend to be the most non-conducive to a roleplaying environment, as their goals sum up to "kill or detain bad guys", and as very focused synthetics, it doesn't leave a lot of leg room for potential for them to negotiate.

Tangentially related note, it would be cool if we ported peacekeepers in their place, whose goal is strictly pacifistic.

[Pratepresidenten]

Im all for removal of secborgs. They're shit and do not belong.

[Sytic]

Secborgs are a cuff dispenser, a round ender, and often use their utility abilities that regular borgs have better than their own existing kit, due to the inherent flaws within being a borg. 9/10 times a medical borg will be better used by Security than a Secborg.

(insert "and thats a fact" meme)

+1.

[Resilynn]

Excuse me, we have one very important and great at roleplay and good at following their laws secborg who should never be removed.

 

It’s Beepsky. The rest are pmuch bad. Even the best ones are like. Better as engineering borgs. 

+1

Edited July 16, 2019 by Resilynn

[Doxxmedearly]

There are several players I trust to play secborgs well. I will miss the good moments with secORB and being a reliable tool for sec as Moth. It's sad to take away potential for good borg moments like these as sec. There are good borgs, so I'm kinda disappointed with the blanket statements that they're all shit or terrible validhunters. That's rude to people who do well with the role.

But I recognize that there are five times as many validborgs out there, with no RP, who are ruining rounds. I'm not against their removal, as the points presented by chada are pretty solid. I won't argue that the good rp we get is worth the shit rp we endure, as the balance is heavily to the latter. It's not a bad idea.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

The capacity of the players aside, there exists only two borg slots. It is unfair, then, to have them be taken as Security support given Security is typically a stacked department.

[Karolis2011]

2 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

There are good borgs, so I'm kinda disappointed with the blanket statements that they're all shit or terrible validhunters. That's rude to people who do well with the role.

I completely agree with them. It's sad to see good players not being able to play this role. But still argument that there are lot of bad players at this role is also very true. 

I would suggest making it whitelisted role, but it would probably bring down problem one step further. 

How much I don't want to say this, but sec borg deserve to be removed.

[Sytic]

I've personally seen fantastic Sec borgs before, don't get me wrong. Any sec borg which uses its abilities to assist the Security Department is fantastic. Why? Because they're not hunting valids, they're assisting security. That's a fairly large distinction, and when they perform that role, they do it very nicely. You have no idea how nice it is to have doors just... open. To have the door that the antag is about to run away from... close. That the equipment in the room just shuts down right when it's about to murder you. To have cuffs when you need it and an occasional backup thwacking from a robot. That's all incredibly nice.

But almost all of these things can be done by other Borg configurations, if not with better equipment. These borgs that assist security will still exist, maybe even better. The sec borg as it stands, provides little more than a way to beat the crap out of antags, which is less helpful overall, and less fun.

[Garnascus]

These are all really good arguments in my opinion. I find myself agreeing with this PR. I do not really have anything eloquent to say here that has not already been said. 

[Kaed]

I would like to see something that takes the place of security borgs in a sort of assisting role, like Delta above showed... but probably not that goofy.  I don't think it's strickly fair to take borgs out of security entirely, some people want to be cyborgs that are involved in antagonist activities, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to give them an option to help out in the security department in a non-officer fashion.

So... more like a... warden bot whose job is to oversee the brig and ensure the safety/security of prisoners rather than hunt down and detain criminals.  It would have some low-tier medical and light suppression capabilities, like a flash or maybe pepper spray, but definitely not tasers and batons, or handcuffs.  The corporate regulations book attachment and the sec HUD overlay would be good too.  Maybe some soap cause the brig can get messy.

Because security borgs aren't the only problems with security right now.  It's not always there, but there's a distinct set of security behaviors that make being a prisoner extremely unappealing for players.  Generally speaking, the wardens, unless they are a good one, are neglectful and offer prisoners little in the way of interactions, and if it isn't warden neglect, it's the Hovering Officer Syndrome.

You know what I'm talking about.  The dangerous antagonist is thrown into solitary, and has an officer stand outside their cell with a laser rifle in their hand for the rest of the round, valid-eyes hungry for a reason to shoot them.  Having the role of security borgs shifted to overseeing prisoners in their captivity would free up Wardens to do other things for part of their time without leaving the prisoners alone and bored and stop giving officers a reason to stop their normal duties to play pretend valids-warden.

Also, cyborg players are almost universally friendlier than security players are, especially if you killed a few people, and they're still lawed to do what the prisoners want, within limits of reason (like not letting them out early just because they ordered it)

Edited July 16, 2019 by Kaed

[Doxxmedearly]

I do like the idea of the borg that Delta posted, although it's a bit memey as-is. The idea is a good base to work on, though.

 

edit:

Quote

The capacity of the players aside, there exists only two borg slots. It is unfair, then, to have them be taken as Security support given Security is typically a stacked department.

This is also a very good point. A good borg should not move to a staffed department, but many still do regardless.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Doxxmedearly

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The peacekeepers dont seem like a meme at all.

[Doxxmedearly]

Cookie synthesizer and hugging module?

If we have bots that can make cookies on demand there will be no reason to use the pray verb anymore, putting admins out of a job.

[Chada1]

That was the funniest rebuke I've ever read Doxx.?

Edited July 16, 2019 by Chada1

[AmoryBlaine]

The only reasonable way to have any security borgs is if we increase the amount of borg slots or have a separate slot for a single sec borg. I doubt that is going to happen, given they add nothing to the game that isn't already accomplishable with an IPC. I can't name any sec borg mains off the top of my head, so I doubt there is going to be much loss. And if there are any, it just incentives more IPC whitelists.

[Kaed]

11 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

The only reasonable way to have any security borgs is if we increase the amount of borg slots or have a separate slot for a single sec borg. I doubt that is going to happen, given they add nothing to the game that isn't already accomplishable with an IPC. I can't name any sec borg mains off the top of my head, so I doubt there is going to be much loss. And if there are any, it just incentives more IPC whitelists.

I take it all back, this is a terrible idea and we shouldn't do it.

[Scheveningen]

eh not exactly... IPC security characters are more heavily scrutinized compared to that of other xenos in the same job on the OOC side, because it's too easy to either make a really dumb robocop or HK-47 knock-off.

[AmoryBlaine]

1 minute ago, Kaed said:

I take it all back, this is a terrible idea and we shouldn't do it.

More applications, does not necessarily mean more accepted ones. I  doubt people who play Sec borg as main are going to make IPC whitelists, anyways. It's easier just to play a human officer, or do a different borg module.

[Kaed]

47 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

More applications, does not necessarily mean more accepted ones. I  doubt people who play Sec borg as main are going to make IPC whitelists, anyways. It's easier just to play a human officer, or do a different borg module.

Please.  Even from looking at the last 4 pages of archived IPC applications, I can tell that the majority of IPC applications that are even are due to considerations outside of the application itself (they are a new player, or have a history of powergaming).  There were only two I could find that even had the contents of the application as a major sticking point for the rejection.

Either way, I still think a warden bot would be good.

[AmoryBlaine]

Agreed. A brig assistance borg would be nice. Tbh, the basic 'cyborg' IPC, that is the basis for all robo limbs and cyborg designs could just be an all-access sub race of IPCs that are automatically selected when you roll for their slots.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

8 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Cookie synthesizer and hugging module?

They seem fine. I would change cookies to trauma blankets, myself.

 

It has not happened in a long time, but when cargo techs would see bodies fall into cargo from disposals jawdat would give them tea and a trauma blanket, then leave immediately after saying "It will be ok."

So there's ancedotal precedent...

Edited July 17, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[MiniusAreas]

I'm fully against this. Yes secborgs are highly validhunty, but if you actually get stopped and killed or cuffed by one by itself and it alone,  then you need to rethink this. Secborgs can be ran away from, and require you to get hit by the taser more than 7-8 times and they drain charge hard when firing, or get in range of their baton.

The easiest way to stop secborgs from being literal valid machines is not to remove them, but fix them. Secborgs were practicaly made to be a officer, but they can't fill that job. Secborgs as a supportive role for security or as a prisoner or evidence collector and removing the cause of valids, the stunbaton, would make much more sense than outright removing it. 

 

Removing something because the players fuck it up because it was left in its state doesn't rest well with me. I also don't use the forums alot so if you do have something you wish to talk and debate over in a calm manner, ping or DM me on discord. Minius out.