Scout Service for RnD/mining (edited) (This doesn't touch sec slots anymore)

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The original suggestion. I am focused on just the Scouts due to how contentious it is.

Spoiler

 

For a long time I've been really interested with the power dynamics between Departments, and especially Command and Security. This suggestion is applying my philosophy that I've played with a little bit in the past, and observed working in some elements in other servers including Colonial Marines (the relationship between MP's and Marines), Baystation (expeditionary based roles and the philosophy of Milsim and how to combat it), Meowy's Catserver (the relationship between Constables and Soldiers), and others. The long and short of it is that I am metaphorically separating the military authority from the civilian authority.

What I Want To See

I am splitting security into Security Guard and government contracted Scout Service.

Department Sec was an attempt to do what I want to do, but it's the wrong answer to the right question. It isolated security on an individual level and took away their cohesion, and it seemed mean spirited from this. Other attempts to fix security include nerfing their equipment, reducing their played slots, changing their outfits, or others. These do not address the fundamental power that security as a department holds. I want to change security without leaving the sec mains out to dry.

The Power of Security

While on paper the HoS is a member of Command of equal rank with the others, they wield incredible power. The HoS and their department is responsible for all matters of security. They are intended to handle any and all threats and problems. The same people that we ask to prepare for a hostile boarding party of heavily armed mercenaries are the people that we send to deal with 17 year old assistants scrawling rude messages in the public hallway. the HoS themselves is the most powerful member of Command. They decide when to go to blue alert and red alert in most circumstances, and it is in the best interest of the HoS to remain in Blue because they are able to execute their incredible power.  In practical terms, the HoS has de facto authority on code blue and above, because the Captain, who legally outranks them, still has to explicitly assert themselves to contradict a HoS' goals and objectives and even then the HoS can often either persuade the Captain to get out of their way, intimidate the captain, or threaten the captain with arrest. Anyone who is not the Captain has zero recourse against a HoS, especially if there is no Captain. You cannot refuse an arrest, and if an arrest is improper or something otherwise bad from sec happens, the one responsible for them is the HoS, who has a vested interest to side with their department almost always or was the one to order your arrest.

Low and High Intensity

Low intensity issues include bar fights, angry public arguments, someone throwing trash at a window, littering, and generally code yellow level issues. A series of mysterious murders or disappearances can also be low intensity if they are more mysterious than they are action packed.

High intensity issues include attacks by mercenaries, violent revolution, mutiny, hostile alien attacks, rogue AI's, spiders, and generally anything that gets your adrenaline pumping.

In its current state, Security handles both, and are built and expected to handle the latter at any moment.

Security Guards and Low Intensity Build

Security Guards will have a fundamentally different identity, equipped to handle Low Intensity. That is done as easily as having their Head be one who's responsibility is beyond security matters. By expanding from the sole objective of Security, and their Head having a broader set of responsibilities, the wielding of authority against the crew has more considerations and therefore will give that Head pause. 

We also encourage, through the wiki and other means, these Guards to have a cooperative playstyle rather than an antagonistic playstyle when interacting with crew. A cooperative playstyle very similar to this is currently done with the eridani contractors, who are told they should try to issue fines or warnings instead of brigging.

Security guards are meant to handle threats that come from Within.

However, offering all that responsibility to the HoP would be CRAZY. This will be addressed in a later segment.

Scouts and Low/High Intensity Build

Tau Ceti Scouts, headed by the Scout Leader, are agents of the Tau Ceti Colonial Authority who handle the Scouts, a civilian organization that do in macro what they do for us on a smaller scale on Aurora. They are contracted by the government and NanoTarsen to provide the following services: Control the Away Mission shuttle, to scout for and protect science expeditions, to scout out and mark resources for extraction, and to generally be the eyes and ears of the crew. In normal operations they defer to the station Chain of Command, similar to the Tau Ceti Foreign Legion.

They do not have the power to arrest station crew. But I can see (intentional in design) really interesting and dramatic decisions being made in potential situations like the overwhelmed security guards asking for help in quelling a riot or being pressed into solving a mutiny, and the scouts begin to wield their power against the crew. This would be a Very Bad Thing, it would be recognized as outside the normal bounds of their power, and be great fuel for rev rounds, great drama for regular rounds, and otherwise an engaging experience. What stops them from simply being an on-call riot suppression force is that separation of their firepower from their legal authority. This is additionally stressed by having the Scouts be a contracted service; a mechanic we already have.

Scouts are for handling the Non-Crew antagonists or forces. They are who you call for help against space carp, cave dwellers, weird aliens, mercenaries, and other things that come from Without.

Any question about circumstances on where scouts should be expected to help or not can be answered by also asking if in that situation it is reasonable to expect crew militias to form. If cultists with swords are running around, should a crew militia be reasonably formed? If mercenaries are attacking and Security is overwhelmed, should the crew form a militia? The answers to these questions are the answers to when the Scouts turn their focus inward to the crew.

Changes To Command

As mentioned, giving the HoP  the security guards would give them crazy levels of responsibility. As a HoP main I know how crazy things get even without the security channel turned on. That is why the HoP role will have the split-off command role of Service Director.

The Head of Personnel is responsible for all personnel matters on the station (jobs and access), the delegation of security guards, and financial accounting. Their radio access remains the same. They work alongside the Service Director and can fill in where needed if asked. They are not expected to oversee tactical High Intensity operations of guards, since such high intensity operations are not the intention of Guards.

The Service Director is responsible for the Supply department, and service department (including custodial). They have Command, Service, and Supply radio access.

We also have the Scout Leader. It is the Leader's duty to oversee missions to explore the asteroid/other z-levels, help RnD catalogue discoveries, mark resource deposits for mining, defend expeditions, control the Expedition Shuttle, and defend the ship from threats that overwhelm the Security Guards. They should be best friends with the Director.

Our Command roster will be like this,

• Captain
• [...]
• Scout Leader
• Head of Personnel
• Service Director

Current Head of Security characters would transition to become Scout Leaders, Security Chief, or Head of Personnel's. HoP mains can choose to remain or move to Service Director if they want to avoid the oversight of security. The raise to Blue Alert is no longer the decision of a single non-Captain command member, but something that they should ask other Command about. The HoP raising us  to blue is odd, and therefore worth pause. This is intentional. Currently the HoS can swipe for blue simply to skirt the need for a search warrant immediately after a crew  member they deem suspicious has denied consent for a warrantless search on green. A HoP doing that unilaterally is weird, and you have recourse against it.

Changes to Scout And Security Manifest

• Scout Service
• Scout Leader (1)
• Scout (2)
  • Pioneers, mountaineers, pathfinders, and explorers at heart. Scouts are under the authority of the Scout Leader.  They are the eyes and ears of the crew. They help scout for resources, explore the unknown, and protect scientists on expeditions. They do not have the power to arrest, as they are kept separate from Civilian authority.
• Ranger (1)
  • The "Lone Ranger" of the Scouts. The Ranger works best alone. They are the ones brave enough to see the wild open space before them and not need a buddy. They can act autonomously out in space or the wilderness of an away mission, equipped for long duration in dangerous conditions and hostile environments.
• Scout Cadet (2)
  • Cadets who are not fully fledged Scouts, but who passed basic training and are getting field experience. Starry eyed boy scouts.

 

• Security Department
• Head of Personnel (1)
  • Responsible for oversight of the Security Guards and assurance that crew are being properly processed and handled, and handling the personnel matters of the department. They can stamp off on warrants.
• Security Chief
  • The 2nd of command in Security. Chiefs are not a member of Command, and cannot raise to blue alert. But they can sign off on warrants, handle the tactical 'dispatch' style business of security, and coordinator in the field.
• Warden (1)
• Security Guard (3)
  • Assigned to ensure de-escalation of conflict, patrolling the station, and ensuring the safety of crew during standard operations.
• Detective (1)
• Forensic Technician (1)
• Security Cadet (2)

Equipment of Scouts

Scouts should have an e-pistol, binoculars, a hoist, deployable ladders, voidsuits, magboots, toolboxes and materials for field construction, GPS's, basic medkits, colored beacons¹, and unique jumpsuits. Their base of operations is a small outpost physically detached from the station on the surface level, but with a path leading to an entrance. This requirement to go EVA to reach the station or their small outpost is a reinforcement of their primary role as EVA focused, and reinforces their slight isolation from crew. They should not have any cells to hold detainees.

Equipment of Security Guards

They have low intensity equipment. This is defined as the load-out security officers have in their lockers.

 

 

I would be fine with the jobs simply being added to the station without a change in command dynamics. The Scout Leader falling under the authority of the RD would be fine with me. As long as they are government contractors from the Colonial Authority.

• 1 Scout Leader. They answer to the RD.
  • Blaster Pistol², binoculars. etc.
• 2 Scouts
  • Blaster Pistol, binoculars, etc.
• 1 Ranger
  • Solar Blaster³, medkit, etc.
• 1 Scout Cadet
  • Blaster Pistol, etc.

5 new jobs. They don't have an armory, just their non-weapon based equipment storage. Any more firepower they have to get from RnD. We will only need sprites, the mapping in of a prep area, and some regulations and wiki pages. A much smaller goal.

¹Colored beacons are a new item. They are like the mining beacons that you place which put off light. They can be seen on the GPS list and their character limit is longer, at 11 letters. (DIAMONDS01) (DANGERCARP) (XENOARCH001)

²An e-pistol who's name and sprite fits the themes of tau ceti's other weapons. (TCFL). The same otherwise.

³A rifle similar to the Icelance that recharges by being in sources of sunlight.

 

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=User:Senpai_Jackboot#The_Positions

I've made a test page on my userpage on the wiki. Alpha early access. All information is written informally, and any equipment/access/qualifications are subject to change large or small.

I've asked for volunteers to prepare a PR some time in the future. We need:

[  ] Sprites for the uniforms
[  ] Mapping in Ranger Cabin prep area in/near RnD.
[  ] Coding of job titles, access.

These are the concept photos for the uniform and voidsuit:

Uniform:

Spoiler

Voidsuit:

Spoiler

Edited September 10, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[VUX]

I do enjoy this idea in specific, and in general I also think that the 'combat' and 'enforcement' parts of security should be broken up.

[Brutishcrab51]

I want to see change. This is the change I want. Give us this, it's radical, but it's good. This is the change we need to keep Security balanced but divided in intention.

[Susan]

I don't like this suggestion in the slightest. Personally I find nothing wrong with the way security is laid out or operates currently and find suggestions to change an otherwise properly functioning system motivated by the wrong reasons. You shoulder a lot of power on the HoS yourself but the fact of the matter is that they are a whitelisted player who has no more authority out of their area than anyone else and if anyone is acting like Judge Dredd and holding the Captain and the rest of the Command team hostage you should probably ahelp it or make a player complaint.

Introducing government actors to the station will create headaches and believability issues. What will happen if there are no Scouts, or no members of Security? Officers are trained for the worst case scenario but the majority of expected work they deal with is 17 year old assistants, yes. Just because every other round is exploding cultist changeling antagonists does not mean in-universe it happens with the same frequency. It is logical officers are trained to deal with worst case scenarios like boarders but they will realistically scarcely use that training.

Equally, if a military force is already on station, what is the purpose of an ERT or TCFL call...?

[stev]

I honestly can't believe this suggestion is being seriously considered. Adding milrp on station is an awful, awful idea that will attract the worst sort of players and practically invite shittery. A million times no. I don't want this server falling the way of Bay.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Scouts are not a military force. It udba civilian outfit. They are no better equipped to fight than existing officers. Park rangers but the park has space carp. Boy scouts but adult. A botanical expedition into the amazon. These are the mouthfeels.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[MattAtlas]

I think there are more cons to this than pros. For example; lowpop effectiveness, the fact that the security roster just doubled (and that more will be able to go after a single antag), and how complicated this will look to new players.

[DronzTheWolf]

Looking through this, it's certainly interesting. I like the ideas of it, but it seems as though there's some things that could use a bit of refinement. Introducing government influence onto the station adds a new layer of complexity, and has the chance to be extremely detrimental. 

That being said, I feel like we can handle it with nuance, like we do the Consular position.

 

Spoiler

That being said, can we give them an NCR-esque aesthetic? Need me my Space NCR Ranger.

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by DronzTheWolf

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

its all being outlined with the base principles behind it but if i created example wiki pages it would very self evident if you ask me.

[Scheveningen]

"let's double the numbers of the security force and act like the bureaucratic differences won't lead to valid-killing happening anyway", is the entire premise that this suggestion is built on. super weak mouthfeel. sec as an entity designed to defend the station from antagonists needs less presence, not more of it. -1

[Xelnagahunter]

I think one of the major points seen here is the sheer authority the HoS holds to do things like the code blue example given at the end. I love the intent to change play like this but do you not really think that eventually the HoP swiping for blue for the EXACT same reasons won't become the norm? People will stop questioning it. It's nifty and I like the intent, but I don't think any honest change will happen in that regard. we will have police and then reservist unit. The TCS unit will either be bored or hated by the crew in many game modes. I just don't see this as being beneficial.

[Scheveningen]

hopcurity is also an incredibly notorious phenomenon on other servers. putting the HOP in charge of the sec will end up in hop characters having military background to recuse themselves whenever they directly face off against antagonists, their subordinates in turn having roughly the same background because there's nothing that specifically says they can't have that. entire suggestion needs to be sent back to the drawing board cus this ain't it chief

Edited August 31, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

44 minutes ago, Xelnagahunter said:

I think one of the major points seen here is the sheer authority the HoS holds to do things like the code blue example given at the end. I love the intent to change play like this but do you not really think that eventually the HoP swiping for blue for the EXACT same reasons won't become the norm?

There is an entrenched and longrunning attitude towards what is often called HoPSec. A HoP arbitrarily swiping to blue will arguably always be something really weird to people. I am having a hard time imagining a situation where a HoP raising to blue arbitrarily wont raise a lot of fuss.

However I understand completely where you are coming from. While requiring a swipe to move to blue, what do you think about a second member of command needing to verbally agree for a raise?

 

 

44 minutes ago, Xelnagahunter said:

The TCS unit will either be bored or hated by the crew in many game modes. I just don't see this as being beneficial.

I had a lot of worry about the Scouts not having anything to do in the ultimate stress test: extended. That is why as Scouts their intention is to work alongside Supply and RnD. They are not just an armed police force, or even a military force. A Scout has many disparate options for how to spend a round. Help mining locate rich deposits; hunt for cave dwellers; hunt for the derelict and leave a beacon so people can TP there and mess around in it; build a base out on a separate z-level; help cargo ferry things around. The Scouts have a wide variety of possibilities and character options. Their entire job description is to go OUT and do stuff that other departments need paperwork and head permission to do. Scouts can do it automatically and autonomously.

Imagining scout as security officers unable to arrest is a misunderstanding of the intention of their department.

Their Mouthfeel:

Spoiler

One of their inspirations:

https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Explorer_(CivBE)

Quote

"Exploration Unit. Ideal for scouting the terrain, opposing forces, and alien activity. Its light Combat Strength gives it modest defense, but it is not suited to full-scale warfare."

[...]
"Explorers act as scouts for their colony. They can move quickly through the world, clearing the fog of war, in order to bring knowledge to their people. However, whereas a scout would care only for knowledge of the present, an Explorer is devoted to uncovering the past. At their core, they are archaeologists, skilled in excavation. They can delve into derelict settlements, progenitor ruins, alien worm skeletons, even crashed satellites, providing their colony with certain bonuses"

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

2 hours ago, DronzTheWolf said:

Introducing government influence onto the station adds a new layer of complexity, and has the chance to be extremely detrimental. 

The Scouts have a contract that determine what they do and their relationship with the station. It is the same thing as the other megacorp contractors. They agree to do X Y and Z. In this case, that means they are subordinate to the regulations of the station when not explicitly outlined (such as their lack of arrest powers).

[AmoryBlaine]

13 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Scouts are not a military force. It udba civilian outfit. They are no better equipped to fight than existing officers. Park rangers but the park has space carp. Boy scouts but adult. A botanical expedition into the amazon. These are the mouthfeels.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck- it's a duck. Just because you stamp NOT A MILITARY FORCE on it, does not change the fact that this is designed to separate Security into two camps- the ones with the guns, and the ones without.

 

 

 

 

[AmoryBlaine]

21 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Scouts should have a laser rifle, binoculars, a hoist, deployable ladders, voidsuits, magboots, toolboxes and materials for field construction, GPS's, basic medkits, colored beacons¹, and unique jumpsuits. Their base of operations is a small outpost physically detached from the station on the surface level, but with a path leading to an entrance. This requirement to go EVA to reach the station or their small outpost is a reinforcement of their primary role as EVA focused, and reinforces their slight isolation from crew. They should not have any cells to hold detainees.

"Well, see, we were going to capture the Merc, but since the others were still around and it was dangerous- we had to kill him- there just wasn't time to send him over to ISD- it was going to put our lives on the line to do that."

[Outboarduniform]

I agree with most of the concerns here on why this idea is kind of....sketchy. 

A question I have though, how are the scouts going to interact with TCG fugitives and the TCG Consular Officer/Representative on the station ?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Outboarduniform said:

A question I have though, how are the scouts going to interact with TCG fugitives and the TCG Consular Officer/Representative on the station ?

They defer to the local station regulations. If a noncrew fugative showed up only NT has the brig to hold them.

Space Park rangers and pioneers dont have arrest perms.

If i murder someone and run through Yellowstone in view of the rangers they will call the police.

If a ranger has a rifle and i start attacking their ranger post and shooting at campers and coworkers theyll probably shoot back.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Rushodan]

Right, I'll preface this with a note that this seems like a really cool idea and clearly a bunch of thought went into it, perhaps even some passion. I can like it from a creative aspect.

 

But parts of it are either totally wrong or wouldn't play out how you think they would. First of all yes - this is literally creating a military / paramilitary force that will make things horrible to deal with as antag. I feel as if it will add to valid hunting, especially with the name given. "But admin.. I'm called a scout. Shouldn't I be hunting for antags...?"

 

Secondly, security has enough slots and variety as it is - the last thing we need is more of a security 'presence' on station.

 

Lastly the head of Security doesn't hold the most power, the captain does. Even then you won't get far without working with your other heads of staff. A good HoS caters to what the other heads need help with and focuses on just keeping the station safe. A power tripping HoS can get voted out, suspended and normally ends up being very disliked.

 

All in all, while some people think that security requires some sort of change it is fine where it is. They aren't too strong, or too weak. They are pretty good where they are and people both enjoy playing as and interacting with the department - at least from what I have been seeing recently. Sure - you get the odd new person that acts like an idiot and can negatively effect a round - but they improve over time and should be ahelped anyway.

 

As a side note, as the recent suggestion to remove the baton found out in SS13 it's actually a required piece of equipment. Moving it to the armoury is a bad idea - it was/is being nerfed already to have less charge and less knockout potential.

 

A huge game breaking -1 from me 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

19 minutes ago, SHODAN said:

Secondly, security has enough slots and variety as it is - the last thing we need is more of a security 'presence' on station.

Do you think this is an existential issue or one where job slots and equipment can be adjusted?

 

19 minutes ago, SHODAN said:

Lastly the head of Security doesn't hold the most power, the captain does.

On paper, yes. There is a lot of conditions that need to be met to constrain a HoS. A Captain needs to be present, as well as actively asserting themselves. A HoS who is voted out also still controls all of the weapons on the station and a loyalty implant that has all of their  decisions conceptualized as being Completely Legal. It seems rare to me when a HoS complies with a demotion.

19 minutes ago, SHODAN said:

First of all yes - this is literally creating a military / paramilitary force that will make things horrible to deal with as antag.

Is this a matter of their equipment? As mercs scouts can be encountered just like you'd encounter miners. Scouts themselves are expected to encounter space carp; should their equipment on green alert be an e-pistol with lasers in the armory or is this an existential issue by putting too many eyes out on the asteroid?

19 minutes ago, SHODAN said:

As a side note, as the recent suggestion to remove the baton found out in SS13 it's actually a required piece of equipment.

This is something else I can cede ground to. It is a concern that handing it out as is encourages its use on par with a flash or mace. How about it's not in the armory, but a distinct locker? Do you have any other ideas for how Guards can be discouraged from using batons within the scope of this suggestion?

Edited September 1, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Rushodan]

Right, I'll respond but I can't quote due to my phone being garbage.

There is no current issue with security equipment. If anything I'd ask for a buff because recharging laser rifles is a pain but their abilities to function as station security is in a good spot right now.

It literally happened the other day with my captain. We had a vote on a head of security not playing well with command, proceeded to have a command meeting and then they stepped down when asked. If a HoS ignores the captain it's ahelp worthy. The hos a lot of times needs the help of other departments like supply, medical, engineering and even sci. Playing nice is in their best interests.

Having extra eyes on the asteroid will be a pain for any antags that arrive on a shuttle. Imagine a heister team that arrives, is spotted by a scout, station goes onto alert before they even step foot inside. It wouldn't be fun for departments outside of sec.

Having people with lethals will result in antags being mag dumped the second they do anything - security don't have access to lethals without the armory for this reason. If you want proof that this will happen, look at the detective and his revolver. Many an antag has been fucked up due to that thing.

With the baton, just read the thread. What are you supposed to do against someone that has sunglasses and that is actively evading you? What about a gas mask? It was talked about at length in the removal thread but ultimately it is a required bit of kit.

 

I like the suggestion, but as an event round. Not as a change to current security - which is in a good spot imo. 

The hop having command over security is a big turn off for me as well... a hos is required due to the newer players you get that sometimes enforce regs when they shouldn't be enforced.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Also, this does not greatly expand the security department. 2 scouts, 2 sec gives us the same amount of personnel.

[VUX]

As for what you could do to someone with sunglasses or a gas mask, you could just wrestle them, that's always an option, and that's what police do in the real.

[AmoryBlaine]

The only thing that gives a HoS an edge in authority is having his team back him. But if he does not have that, he has no power. If we're talking about 3D characters, you'll find a good chunk of Sec regulars are not automatons that will back up the HoS if they're trying to push against the rest of command. Sure, they have access to all the guns, but I'm really interested in hearing of some situations not regarding antagonism that result with a Head of Security grabbing guns to fight the rest of command that hasn't ended with bans and complaints.

The suggestion that the HoS is this character to be feared because he can overpower the rest of command is only legitimatized by the size of the department he heads. No department, no power.

 

[Nantei]

I really don't dig this. I love the idea of things like the scouts, that are not military. But I do not like the idea of them being a replacement for the armory as it stands now. Essentially, they are dedicated walking armories. Why? I don't see how removing escalation from on-site security improves things at all. If anything I feel this would make it worse. Right now, Security has to go from non-lethals, to less lethals, to lethals. Going to lethals requires premeditation and a check and balance through the HoS or Warden. Also Security as of now is encouraged to use the least force necessary, and from what I can see has been attempting to do so. Removing the ability to escalate ruins this entirely. I don't like it.

The implication here seems to be that HoS's abuse their power since they have the most physical power on station. But I almost never see this happen. And I definitely don't see how this isn't just moving the issue over to the Scout Lead instead. The Captain and ISD would have no defense against these Scouts really, so... how is this not just moving the alleged issue?

 

I love the idea of Scouts replacing Mining or something. Honestly anything to make Mining less tedious. Not exactly like this, but similar. I don't know. There's potential here creatively speaking, but not as a Security change. EVA focused roles are something I want. But not with laser rifles and the intent to deal with antagonists.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Nantei