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Ban Request - BurgerBB


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BYOND Key: Geeves

Players Byond Key: BurgerBB

Time of Act: 01:30 - 02:00 GMT+2 

Reason for Ban: Failure to adhere to the requests stipulated in 

General toxic behaviour in general discord. Haven't seen in-game or OOC, so cannot comment there.

Evidence: https://discordapp.com/channels/157516682288562176/302201161044328450/652281361775984641

https://discordapp.com/channels/157516682288562176/157531783779319808/652293889327104016

(I'm unsure if these links work properly on all devices, hit me up if it doesn't work and I'll attach as screenies)

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I have seen no improvement in regards to their history on the server. As such, I can only support the request at this time. Although I would seriously consider just banning them from Discord, since I do not think restricting server access will be required.

This will be discussed among staff, and assigned to someone to handle (most likely a headmin, given the case).

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Alright so I find this ban request pretty abusive for a lot of reasons but justified in others. I don't even know how to really approach without having to write a multi paragraph response post that no one will like reading so I'll keep it short and simple.


I fucked up. I believe that I fucked up by not going straight to a mod when Moondancerpony and Geeves started to bait me, as Marlon Phoenix said. I let my emotions control of me because I was just in an extremely shitty round where someone broke the rules and wasted my time, so I was in a pretty sensitive state. I was trying to do the right thing by reporting a bug as me and Yonnimer discussed in looc, but I got shut down because I didn't do it in the nicest way or the proper way, and I felt the need to explain myself when I was being accused of several things, even breaking IC in OOC. I was laughed at and made fun of by several developers and was berated by Moondancer and Geeves the most. That got to me so I felt the need to tell everyone who was giving attitude to fuck off with their attitude. I later apologizing them for saying that some things weren't tested properly, and then put time and effort into a non-aggressive feedback post in the appropriate thread after being asked to.

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But I think there is something to be learned here. I mean, this is on par with me saying "I didn't murder them this time, only stab them in the thigh once." but if you read the entire interaction here you'd probably see some vast improvement. I never called anyone names. I never flung insults. I told people to simply fuck off with their attitude, but again I fully admit that I've should've just went straight to a mod. I tried my best to deal with several angry developers at once, and failed terribly, but I even admitted that I got out of line and apologized for accusing of them of not testing their code when it was fixed. My responses were not aggressive instantly, but rather they grew in aggression the more toxicity I kept getting. Eventually I realised what was happening, and cooled down. Despite me not being involved in the conversation, they tried their best to keep it going and @tbear13 told them several times to drop it and I kept my cool.

But I honestly I don't think it matters at this point. I expect a permaban here because it's inevitable, even if I think I have improved. It's extremely easy to bait me and if enough people do it, then I'm going to get permabanned eventually. Like, if one person constantly tries to bait me, they're going to stop after the first or second warning because they don't want to get in trouble. If several people group and then try to bait me, then they're all going to be treated as separate instances, even if it is all at once. I think that's what happened here today. The screenshots that Moondancer posted were cropped of a lot of important context, and considering that they as a group continued to start shit several times after a mod told them all to stop, even 5 minutes after the discussion, and then made a ban request shortly after they were told to stop, I think is an issue.

My ban reason was that I had a terrible attitude towards the community and the players. I do not think I have that same attitude as I did before. I respect the players, I respect the community, I give appropriate feedback to players and intentionally phrase my statements. Even the evidence used as to why I should be banned shows serious improvement from the sort of things I used to say. I didn't call them shit antags or anything, I just said "I am upset, and here is why." and telling people exactly what happened.

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Alright so i am first going to lay out a brief sequence of events here. Feel free to correct me.

1. Burger initiates this conversation by saying this in code_dungeon

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2. Burger claims testmerges are for checking balance and not for checking "very fucking basic shit"

3. Burger claims matt is being sassy.

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So, to start this conversation it appears we have already seen a direct attack on the development team over the brainmed testmerge. Stating that "none of this was tested" is speculation at best and pretty sassy at worst. I feel its a little unreasonable to then claim its someone else being sassy.

4. The conversation derails a bit in which burger feels his criticism is not being properly evaluated. Burger claims he was not being sassy.

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5. The conversation continues to degrade. Matt is pretty obviously annoyed by this point. 

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Its fairly natural to get defensive and give a little "attitude" when someone starts off attacking your work and being sassy. I think the logs here pretty clearly show burger doing this first. 

The logs from then onward are pretty much more of the same. Burger claims quite angrily that a bug occured to his character. Such a bug should have easily been caught if it where tested he claims. The devs attempt to discern some specific information from him. Burger continued to claim he was getting "traumas" despite matt claiming he removed the code responsible for giving people traumas. Eventually moon figures out that what burger was experiencing was NOT traumas but in fact the side effects of a few medications used to treat burger's injuries. At this point in the conversation we have established two things. 

1. It was intentional

2. The PR was tested

Burger then claims he was told by @Yonnimer that he "should not be getting traumas" and assumed that since he figured he WAS getting traumas that it was bugged. The conversations degrades more and more with "fuck offs" thrown around. I think it is pretty clear here that burger acted pretty rudely based off of hearsay and attacked the dev team based on misinformation. 

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Here is the series of events.

0. There was another bug that gave everyone heart failure or something earlier, something that could've been discovered by testing once. It was fixed. You can see the announcement in #announcements. This was in the back of my mind when this happened.

1. I experience traumas despite having oxygen in my system and no brain damage. It looks like I'm getting them every minute. They 100% mechanically act and feel like traumas.

2. I talk to Yonnimer in LOOC about it. He says that I shouldn't be getting them.

3. I go in code dungeon asking for the test merge to be reverted considering the previous bug as well as bug that I thought was a bug. I was upset at the time because it seriously affected my round and the round at the time wasn't going well for most players.

4. Everyone cools down. I then calmly and clearly explain the bug. We all act like functioning adults, and all keep our cool.

5. The developers realise that I was reporting a feature, and rudely make fun of me for it more than what I thought was necessary.

4. I was then harassed by other developers. My previous work was mentioned and was shat on. I was made fun of, and the developers were being exceptionally hostile.

5. I realised my mistake. I apologized for it. I told people to fuck off with their attitude because it was seriously affecting my mental health.

6. They then ask for an admin after they're done harassing me. They then continue to try to provoke me in an admin presence. At this point I do the right thing and ignore them.

 

I fully admit that I fucked up in this situation. I don't even know what to say anymore. I feel like shit not because i was caught but just this entire situation. I really don't want to play the victim here but given what happened yesterday in regards to personal health issues as well as what happened today in a round, I was not in a good state of mind. Despite that, I think that this situation went better than what I would've done 1 year ago. I don't think that matters anymore since I have no last chances left.

 

 

 

 

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Right uh, I was there. It's not as if a permabanned dude has any opinions on matters like this, but I want to say something.

 

I honestly think Burger just needs to chill out. It's a spess game. Is the round ultra shitty? Just dont play it. Talk with the admins that you aren't on the mood to play the round. Im sure they'll understand.. Right?

 

Also, I've literally told him to not say anything incriminating before something exactly like this happens.

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Anyways, just stating my opinion. Also baiting is pretty assholish, so there's that.

Edited by UngaBunga
needs instead of need in the second paragraph
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5 hours ago, sonicgotnuked said:

Hello, this is a friendly reminder to everyone reading this.

Only post if you're involved. Do not ad hominem. The topic will stay constructive.

 

Thank You

I would honestly like this enforced this time, but not for reasons of fair judgement but for reasons of mental health.

 

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I was present for this round in particular as the HOS.

In short the mercenaries for this round directly involved the station by enslaving miners + Bar Shaleez, Burger's engineering lizard. Said mercs weren't really open for negotiation and flat out told me "hell no" in response to whether they wanted to negotiate for the hostages that they considered slaves. At this point we we were sitting at 20-30 minutes of a stupid standoff where nothing productive was happening, so I decided a risky rescue was the best choice we had. We lost an officer to this endeavor through bad luck and brainmed, and I nearly died to bleedout, but we still chewed up the mercenary team on two fronts and freed 75% of the slaves except Shaleez. We didn't know the suicide bomb attempt was even going to happen nor did we even predict this was going to happen. It still panned out relatively well, as our goal of freeing the hostages/slaves was still met, apart from Shaleez whose situation I still don't fully understand how it happened when there was a security team meant to choke the entrance to cargo.

Objectively speaking, the mercenaries that round put more effort into being violent dicks, rather than actually contributing something roleplay-worthy to the round. They were compelling antagonists as far as /tg/'s definition might go for a standard SS13 round, but they were not compelling antagonists by a heavy roleplay definition. I don't think Burger being pissed about that round is unjustified.

I do think just as much context needs to be established for the rest of the screenshots in here, for fairness' sake. There's probably not a good reason for Burger to be sassy towards the devs if he's made a habit of slighting them. He's a fine RPer nonetheless, though there is OOC attitude stuff that is simply intrinsic to him as far as 'Burger' goes.

Edited by Scheveningen
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I don't understand the last statement in full. I believe that is the only time I was ever sassy towards the devs. I was a strong advocate for treating volunteer developers and contributors with respect. I was reporting incidents that were on the level or worse than "revert your code, this shit is broken" but getting responses by admins and moderators saying that it was in line with the sort of "banter" that occurs here. Even Geeves in the middle of it said it was banter.

I made a comment towards the developers about their attitude towards me as well. I even mentioned that if I pulled this shit as developer, I would get in a lot of trouble even if I was provoked by a comment saying that my code needed to be reverted. They still continued their insults and proceeded to talk about how I made bad PRs despite that being irrelevant. Instead of going on their level and throwing insults, I told them to just simply fuck off because they were rude, but I suppose that is the same as going on their level.

I'm not a good person by any means but I do not go out of my way to intentionally provoke people. When I bitch and moan "Look at the context." over and over again I'm not saying it to ignore the shitty thing I did but to understand that this did not come from a person who is intrinsically malicious but rather someone who acts malicious when the planets align and several shitty things occur at once. When 3 developers gang up on me, with one of them having a long history of trash talking and being excessively provocative, and do the very same thing that I was punished for doing a year ago and get away with it, I'm going to be in an emotional state of depression and anger.

I'm honestly still in that emotional state. Like I have to lash out here and say that I don't think it's fair that you had 3 staff members react this way to someone who said "revert this pr, it was untested" and they're the ones who make the ban request when in the conversation they have said some pretty terrible things that are significantly worse than anything I have said in the conversation. It's a near repeat of the Resilynn staff complaint where they tried 3 times to bait a reaction out of me, and when they got one, they asked a mod for me to be banned. Only difference here is that I didn't namecall; something I was told specifically by Alb not to do.

I mean I'm pretty fucked here considering that Garn came in and butchered exactly what happened and never commented at all about the behavior of the developers. despite it being as deplorable as mine. How is this okay?

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12 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

I mean I'm pretty fucked here considering that Garn came in and butchered exactly what happened and never commented at all about the behavior of the developers. despite it being as deplorable as mine. How is this okay?

That is because i think its pretty obvious that not only where you the one that started this you also began with snark. What did you think was gonna happen? That the devs would cordially approach you and go "oh i see you've upset attacked our work but lets still have a nice conversation". Come on now. 

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Alb recommended explaining myself the best I can. So here it goes.

I'm Burger. I am 23 years old. I deeply care about Aurorastation. I coded for it. I've done major overhauls for it. I've improved the server significantly. I've been in numerous discussions to improve aurora. I even applied for developer and got accepted, only to leave it when the community didn't want me to be developer. I hate no one here and hold no grudges. I have never gone out of my way to actively target a user or insult them. I am extremely easy to bait into a reaction and everyone knows this to the point where moderators and administrators have admitted that people intentionally try to bait me to get me banned, but they can't do anything about it because it's not against the rules to bait people, and there is always the benefit of doubt. I tell people to fuck off when provoked because I want them to leave me alone.

I have short term memory loss. I sometimes completely forget things even moments after they occured to me. I struggle with remembering names and faces, sometimes confuse people with other people, and in some cases forget that I am friends with people. I don't really have any friends on Aurorastation because of this. Anyone who has seen me play Diamond with Flaw, Marcus Burgs, Zachery Thaddeus, or  Bar Shaleez can vouch that they can never see me roleplaying with a single person in particular. It is completely impossible for me to remember grudges unless they are exceptionally bad, so I am mentally incapable of attacking people out of the blue. I have had several MRI scans of my brain, and doctors have found nothing physically wrong with it.

I have an unknown problem with my stomach where I am in constant pain and nausea, which was caused by catching the flu and receiving food poisoning at the same time. I have had an endoscopy and a colonoscopy at the age of 23 where they found nothing. I take Pantoprazole Magnesium to reduce the pain and nausea, but it does not go away completely. I am always extremely irritable and easy to annoy because of it, to the point where I have to take Buspirone, an anxiety medication, to further deal with it. I have had this issue for 3 years now, and it is only getting worse.

I've been harrassed and berated by several users here. A user has told me to kill myself in a way that didn't break the rules. Several users have tried to get me removed as developer from Aurora. Several users have tried to get me permabanned from Aurora. My work has been made fun of constantly, and people have constantly brought up how I am similar to Nanako, a person that I have never met or seen before.

The day that I lashed out was when I went to a specialist who wasn't helpful at all. They did not speak english very well and even forgot to fill out a vital lab requisition that I had to go back for. I still didn't know what was wrong with me, which made me upset and angry. During the round that I experienced the bug, I was captured and held hostage by mercenaries who refused to roleplay and interact with people. They forced people to dig holes in mining for an hour. I was extremely bored and irritable, but I played nicely because they threatened to murder us if we stopped digging. I didn't have an ID or headset at the time, so escape was impossible especially in EVA a hardsuit. I ended up getting shot that round, and Yonnimer's merc character treated me. I was experiencing what I thought were traumas as they were effects that most traumas give, such as concussion, paralysis, and constantly blacking out. As a coder, I knew that Yonnimer gave me dexalin and properly treated me, so I brought it up with him in looc, saying that I think I'm getting traumas. I was pretty pissed off that I was now pretty much a cripple now for all that has happened. Eventually the mercs handed me to medical, but they strapped a bomb to me and blew me and medical up. The person who planted the bomb was dealt with but none of the other mercs weren't for bad roleplay behavior.

Given that there were earlier bugs with organ failure that could've been found by testing, and the fact that I just had some terrible things happen to me, and the fact that I've been told time and time again by admins that is acceptable to talk this way, I went into the code dungeon channel to suggest that brainmed should be reverted until it is fixed. I did not know it was testmerged at the time, but I still insisted that it should be reverted because In my opinion it's not really well balanced for how players play and brainmed is seriously disliked among coders in different coding channels for being difficult to work with and bad for players. My sass was met with sass, so I did not change my tone. Eventually, everyone calmed down, and I calmly stated the bug. I was then laughed at and made fun of for mistaking the feature for a bug. I was then insulted for my previous work, so I just lost it at that point and told everyone to specifically fuck off with their attitude. I was exceptionally irritated at that point because Moondancer Pony has a history of endless shittalking of me and my code, to the point where they made a PR called "Removes Burger" and bragged about it. They have told me and bragged several times that they have picked up after my shit because some bugs were found from my addons after my permaban. Despite this, I apologized for my behavior before the mods were called, and admitted my mistake. I apologized again after the conversation as well. I never threw any insults. I never called anyone names, not because I was told not to, but because I had no right to call people names. I did the best I could to explain myself, and I said "fuck off" to statements that were personal attacks, and ignored them. The developers then pinged mods after they were done with the insults, then pretended I didn't exist and moved onto another topic. I did the same. A lengthy amount of time passed, and the three developers involved continued to try to bring up the subject in general discussion. I told them to stop, shut up, and move on because they were clearly trying to start shit again. Shortly after a mod told them to stop several times, they made a ban request thread while I was done finished typing feedback in the feedback thread about the PR.

I left the Aurora discord because I didn't want to break down on there. I then cried for about 30 minutes because I realised that what I did was hypocritical and wasn't the right thing to do. I did the very thing that I was advocating for players not to do to other developers. I gave myself a break from everything and then later gave myself some time to think about it. At much as people like to claim otherwise, this is not who I am. What happened was an accident. I am by no means a hateful person, just one who easily lashes out when provoked. I have never before lashed out at developers.

 

I do not think that Garnacus' interpretation of the events is accurate. I do not think it is the right call to ignore a ton of context like that. I do not think it is fair judgement.

Edited by BurgerBB
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6 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

A lengthy amount of time passed, and the three developers involved continued to try to bring up the subject in general discussion. I told them to stop, shut up, and move on because they were clearly trying to start shit again.

No. You brought it back up on the general channel with;  "I was flamed earlier for talking about it." in the general channel.

I realized you were upset about the round, which is why we buried the topic after everything was over, and would have left it at that. But then you brought it back up, which is the straw which broke the camel's back. I wouldn't have made the Request otherwise.

You've gone back on what you said on your appeal, and given your actions, I'm not sure you should be in the community anymore. Is this similar to the "constant shitstirring" that got you banned on Citadel?

I think you have the potential to be a good person, but your constant complaints that chip away at everyone's spirit cannot stay.

I hope ya get those medical problems figured out, it sounds like it sucks. Best of luck for that.

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44 minutes ago, geeves said:

No. You brought it back up on the general channel with;  "I was flamed earlier for talking about it." in the general channel.

I realized you were upset about the round, which is why we buried the topic after everything was over, and would have left it at that. But then you brought it back up, which is the straw which broke the camel's back. I wouldn't have made the Request otherwise.

You've gone back on what you said on your appeal, and given your actions, I'm not sure you should be in the community anymore. Is this similar to the "constant shitstirring" that got you banned on Citadel?

I think you have the potential to be a good person, but your constant complaints that chip away at everyone's spirit cannot stay.

I hope ya get those medical problems figured out, it sounds like it sucks. Best of luck for that.

  

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"I was flamed earlier for talking about it." was directed at Tbear's "Can we use our nice words." response. It was my excuse for being upset and using the word "retarded" and not an attempt to bring stuff up again. The topic of brainmed was brought up by tbear and not me. I even told both of you, when you both tried to bring shit up again, to stop talking about it. If I wanted to talk about it, I would've talked about it when both of you tried to bring it up again, but I didn't because I didn't want to talk about it. Again, I wasn't saying "Fuck off." because I wanted the conversation to continue, I was saying it because I wanted the conversation to end immediately and I felt at the time that it was an acceptable way to express my unwillingness to further tolerate the insults. It wasn't.

And honestly I don't even know what to say to your Citadel remark. That honestly feel like a snide remark than any attempt at actual discussion about this issue because it's 100% clear that you don't know what you're talking about. Like I'm actually kind of infuriated right now that you brought it up but since you did I guess I have to discuss it despite me discussing it here would result in further administrative action on Citadel.

I was banned from the Citadel discord, not the server, because I went to the appropriate development channels to talk about an Admin who was trying to take control of the development process. The admin in question was trying to manipulate contributors into not making PRs that the admins didn't like by threatening bans, so It was brought up the code discussion channel by me on discord. Many contributors commented on the issue as well, and the conversation was extremely productive and non hostile. An administrator who was friends with them saw the conversation 5 minutes after it happened, tried to insult me, but when I didn't reply to their insult they held an "Unofficial Vote" to permaban me from the discord where a majority of the admins and moderators who were active at the time weren't involved. They used another incident where I asked a person rudely to stop posting massive maggot infestation porn in the nsfw channel as evidence to say it was a pattern. I was not banned from the server or the forums because they had no justification to ban me from the main server or the forums.

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Like it's hard to really post about anything here because I don't know if I'm posting enough. I've been made fun of before for posting lengthy posts about this sort of thing so I'm extremely hesitant to really say anything more especially when the rest of things that I need to say border on the accusatory.

The things that I said to the developers "unironically revert this code, none of it was untested" has been the sort of thing that the administration team has said was okay for users to say and has always been acceptable for other users to say. Like if you look up certain terms on discord, you can get some hits by members of staff, including future devs and current administrators, as seen here: https://imgur.com/a/Bh3Laof

I mean, one of the people involved here has accused me of not testing things in a rude way. I didn't react to it and no one else reacted to it because these accusations are relatively common.

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Regardless, I'm an ex-contributor and an ex-developer. I had several reasons to believe that the code was untested. At the time, those reasons appeared legitimate. Some of them weren't after new information was learned.

  1. The messages that I received from the side effects of medicine and brain damage were EXTREMELY close to previously existing trauma messages and replicate the effects of the traumas, I thought it was reasonable to assume that I was being affected by traumas, specifically, muscle spasms, paralysis, and a concussion. My character was suffering from a lack of oxygen, which all cause those traumas.
  2. Yonnimer said that I shouldn't be receiving traumas, when I said I was being affected by Traumas. They said that it was a bug. Yonnimer is a person who absolutely knows what they're talking about when it comes to medicine and I trust their judgement entirely on the matter. I still trust their judgement.
  3. Before this happened, there was another bug that would've been easy to catch that occured before where people kept taking organ damage. It was a bug that would've been discovered if they ran the server once and spawned in as a human mob with organs. I mentioned this in my reasoning as to why I accused them of not testing code.

I want to make this absolutely clear that even while I was upset and was extremely rude, my intentions were not to be malicious. I was not pulling things out of my ass. I did not know who made the code as I have mentioned before, and I did not care to make things personal. I did not know the scope of the project, nor anything about it really as there was no documentation on the wiki about it, as I am trying to stay away from Aurorastation development.

 

I apologize to the developers that I have wronged here. Again, it was wrong of me to accuse you of not testing code. This has been the first time that I have ever accused any contributor or developer of something like this, and this will absolutely never happen again.

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Most staff members seem to agree a discord ban is all that is needed here. I do not care about what happened on citadel. I also do not care if people complain about the round after it ends. I do this all the time. I do care about what i have already posted about. Server banning over this would be outrageously egregious. 

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40 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Most staff members seem to agree a discord ban is all that is needed here. I do not care about what happened on citadel. I also do not care if people complain about the round after it ends. I do this all the time. I do care about what i have already posted about. Server banning over this would be outrageously egregious. 

This is acceptable if this is the final verdict. I will appeal this in 6 months or so when my conduct in OOC has improved.

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