Rename: Emergency Physicians are not Paramedics

[Guest BoxWulf]

1 minute ago, JMJ_99 said:

Try telling them you don't want to do first response? EPs are still the most qualified to do it after Parameds and EMTs

It’s not about wanting to do it or not, it shouldn’t be the default assumption about the role, hence the PR. 

[JMJ_99]

Just now, Marlon Phoenix said:

No im not. Im a regular doctor that focuses on trauma. MPs might as well run out there. You sound like my wife!

Well its a fact. EPs IRL are sometimes sent to respond on scene when it's particularly fucked.

[geeves]

Good change, I support it. Give them new jackets as well.

[Guest BoxWulf]

Just now, JMJ_99 said:

Well its a fact. EPs IRL are sometimes sent to respond on scene when it's particularly fucked.

I would like one instance where an emergency room attending physician has been sent with a paramedic on a call. 
 

If we’re bringing up IRL scenarios, you would have to understand that licensure and malpractice would NOT protect these doctors from responding to emergencies outside their station within a hospital. 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

5 minutes ago, JMJ_99 said:

Well its a fact. EPs IRL are sometimes sent to respond on scene when it's particularly fucked.

Like what hot singles there are, medical qualifications and requirements change based on your area.

[JMJ_99]

Just now, BoxWulf said:

I would like one instance where an emergency room attending physician has been sent with a paramedic on a call. 
 

If we’re bringing up IRL scenarios, you would have to understand that licensure and malpractice would NOT protect these doctors from responding to emergencies outside their station within a hospital. 

In Britain, they require Doctors to do Intubation on scene for what ever ungodly reason and also have them respond to calls. There's also Mass causalities response and flight doctors
And yes it does, good Good samaritan laws apply to doctors

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, JMJ_99 said:

Good samaritan laws apply to doctors

not in the US lmaooo

 

anyway yes this is a good change, trauma physician is immediately understandable and not immediately affiliated with emergency response, which the role should not be

[Guest BoxWulf]

5 minutes ago, JMJ_99 said:

In Britain, they require Doctors to do Intubation on scene for what ever ungodly reason and also have them respond to calls. There's also Mass causalities response and flight doctors
And yes it does, good Good samaritan laws apply to doctors

Good Samaritan laws are only viable for physicians under “wrong place, right time.” Once you take on that roll, or “call”, you’re no longer a Good Samaritan but a professional and you’re subjected to the penalty of malpractice should something go awry. I’m unfamiliar with the laws of Britain, but I can tell you that you’d be hard pressed to find an ER doctor that can dispense the right antibiotic and follow-up on a patient as they are bogged down by other pressing scenarios within the four walls of their hospital/clinic while paramedics and EMTs respond to outside emergency calls. 

[JMJ_99]

There's so many factors I'm going to drop that argument. You're still trained to be the first line after prehospital setting so yes you would have more of idea on what to do
Changing to a labcoat would change the perception as I've already explained.

[Guest BoxWulf]

Just now, JMJ_99 said:

There's so many factors I'm going to drop that argument. You're still trained to be the first line after prehospital setting so yes you would have more of idea on what to do
Changing to a labcoat would change the perception as I've already explained.

Yes, we agreed on that part!

but we’re still going to try to get the okay to switch the title.

[Goret]

Reminder to be civil when speaking to each others. We aren't animals, and we don't need to throw passive agressive and be non-constructive because we are angry or whatever.

[geeves]

I think this is a change of epic preportions. A real step forward for medical. It's bound to change what with the new medical system having been introduced. My favourite part is that mooost of this has been done by non-devs. Keep up the good work.

Edit: It has come to my attention that some people believe my post isn't genuine. I really do mean that I'm happy that people are suggesting things, and non-developers are picking it up and just doing it. Keeps the community alive, I'm proud.

Edited January 7, 2020 by geeves
clarification

[Soultheif96]

I support the change from Emergency Physician to Trauma Physician as in my time as CMO, I noticed people mistaking them for first response which they are not.

Chief Medical Officer Sterben’s Seal of Approval applied: +1

[Carver]

A sensible change of terminology. +1

[BoryaTheSlayer]

I would suggest making more titles, honestly, but I guess people fear the dreaded ?️loat. The change seems sensible to me, although I really think just giving the emergency physician the labcoat would work.

[Peppermint]

I think it's okay provided we also make more distinction of what each brand of doctor can do. According to the wiki, EPs can't do arterial bleeds which seems...really silly. The same for  shit like lung damage where without a chemist, they are going to die, and you kinda just wait there whilst it happens. 

A big reason myself and others stick with surgeon (at least imo) is due to how you can do literally anything, rather than being 'lol joke, I know how to fix this person but I'm not allowed to' RP, which is pretty darn sucky. 

[FreshRefreshments]

1 hour ago, BoryaTheSlayer said:

I would suggest making more titles, honestly, but I guess people fear the dreaded ?️loat.

More titles sounds nice. Give people more freedom to be exactly what they want. 

I like the name change, if only for the reason Trauma Physician sounds cool. 

[Azande]

17 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

No im not. Im a regular doctor that focuses on trauma. MPs might as well run out there. You sound like my wife!

Any medical doctor working in a hospital, especially in an emergency ward, would be able to conduct first response at an advanced level - equal to or surpassing an EMT/Paramedic. They have years of medical training in comparison to the six months to three years an EMT or Paramedic may have.

An emergency-specialized physician would be even more capable of handling first response than a doctor that is used to non-emergency cases, because this is literally their specialty.

I see no reason a CMO shouldn't ask an Emergency Physician to handle emergency response if they are present and an EMT/Paramedic are not. All crew are expected to know how to use EVA suits, professional crew are expected to know how to use their department suits. While you cannot handle the EMT/Paramedic RIG - this is not an excuse not to try and rescue people.

This entire suggestion seems a tad silly.

[LordRaven001]

Changing Emergency Physician to Trauma Physician doesn't solve the problem.  The title change limits what people understand their role, and the role of the EP to be. Trauma Physician would imply they only focus on trauma. There are different types of injuries besides traumatic ones, especially in an SS13 setting. It also doesn't differentiate between what types of trauma they're expected to handle. Are they expected to handle psychological trauma? Or are they primarily focused on physical trauma? Or is surgical trauma their bread and butter? What do they do?

It doesn't seem like the title is the issue here, but rather the assumptive nature of some radical CMOs, who can be politely corrected. Changing the title from something universally understood, to something that isn't a real thing and has no set definition could invite disarray and confusion in a system which is already further compounded in that confusion by Jackboot's Medical Restrictions. 

I also agree with Azande, there would be no reason why an Emergency Physician wouldn't be trained in first response on a station that is as small as the NSS Aurora. Why would Nanotrasen hire an Emergency Physician who is not competent in pre-hospital response and care when it is becoming standardized training for most urban EPs in the US today and is traditional practice for most EPs in Europe? Why would they only restrict them into the bay especially if there are personnel shortages or if a case is so extreme that the patient could die at any second? 

Edited January 8, 2020 by LordRaven001
added more stuff

[Doxxmedearly]

1 hour ago, Lemei said:

rather than being 'lol joke, I know how to fix this person but I'm not allowed to' RP,

That's just called not powergaming. If an MD knows how to ICly fix something, I've not really seen an instance where they're not allowed to. If you know OOCly but can't due to your title that's just normal RP. Sometimes there's not always the necessary staff to save everyone. That aside, EPs knowing how to do ABs seems pretty reasonable to add to their expected skillset, but that's not in the scope of the thread.

12 minutes ago, LordRaven001 said:

The title change limits what people understand their role, and the role of the EP to be. Trauma Physician would imply they only focus on trauma. There are different types of injuries besides traumatic ones, especially in an SS13 setting. It also doesn't differentiate between what types of trauma they're expected to handle. Are they expected to handle psychological trauma? Or are they primarily focused on physical trauma?

This seems a bit far-fetched. Changing "Emergency" to "Trauma" doesn't make it less clear, and several of the things listed are already just as vague now. Does an EP handle a psychological emergency? Or are they primarily focused on physical health emergencies? 

15 minutes ago, LordRaven001 said:

It doesn't seem like the title is the issue here, but rather the assumptive nature of some radical CMOs, who can be politely corrected.

I feel that it goes beyond just CMO assumption. I've witnessed LOOC confusion between medical staff and even people choosing EP thinking it was a responder role. It happens. This would mitigate those instances as well. 

[LordRaven001]

12 minutes ago, Doxxmedearly said:

This seems a bit far-fetched. Changing "Emergency" to "Trauma" doesn't make it less clear, and several of the things listed are already just as vague now. Does an EP handle a psychological emergency? Or are they primarily focused on physical health emergencies? 

I feel that it goes beyond just CMO assumption. I've witnessed LOOC confusion between medical staff and even people choosing EP thinking it was a responder role. It happens. This would mitigate those instances as well. 

EPs handle all acute conditions whether it be psychological, pathological, or traumatic, that is why they have emergency in their name. Trauma is a specialization of emergency medicine, this is an actual sub-discipline of the discipline of emergency medicine. Emergency Physicians are meant to be the jack of all trades, they know the basics about everything that could be life threatening and they know how to stabilize that person to prepare them for proper treatment. They're the bandaid of the medical community.

I don't see the issue with EP acting as a responder role when there isn't a an EMT or Paramedic on duty. As I previously stated it's commonplace in most of the world today for emergency physicians to have training in pre-hospital care, and while it may not be a requirement on the Aurora I don't see why the basic emergency medicine curriculum in the future wouldn't have it, when the current emergency medicine curriculum has it. 

Changing the title to Trauma Physician isn't the way to go about this as that gives the Emergency Physician a forced specialization, or confuses them with trauma surgeons who are currently the only physicians in the world who use trauma in their title. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by LordRaven001
edited for clarity

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Azande said:

Any medical doctor working in a hospital, especially in an emergency ward, would be able to conduct first response at an advanced level - equal to or surpassing an EMT/Paramedic. They have years of medical training in comparison to the six months to three years an EMT or Paramedic may have.

An emergency-specialized physician would be even more capable of handling first response than a doctor that is used to non-emergency cases, because this is literally their specialty.

I see no reason a CMO shouldn't ask an Emergency Physician to handle emergency response if they are present and an EMT/Paramedic are not. All crew are expected to know how to use EVA suits, professional crew are expected to know how to use their department suits. While you cannot handle the EMT/Paramedic RIG - this is not an excuse not to try and rescue people.

This entire suggestion seems a tad silly.

This is wrong.  A player who is an actual medical professional who works in a hospital has contradicted everything in this posta first paragraph...

[LordRaven001]

2 minutes ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

This is wrong.  A player who is an actual medical professional who works in a hospital has contradicted everything in this posta first paragraph...

That isn't wrong, what they've said is accurate for most of the world.  For clarification purposes I'll explain a little bit about my background.  I'm currently serving as a Supervisory Paramedic within a large urban county in the United States. To put it into layman's terms I am the team lead of a twenty four hour shift.  Part of my responsibilities include scheduling joint AlS rigs, colloquially referred to as a Doc in a Box, with a Paramedic and an EP who is undergoing an EMS fellowship, or a resident EP. 

While it isn't as common in some rural areas of the United States mostly due to personnel constraints, most emergency physicians are able to preform life-saving measures out in the field if we give them the right tools and a controlled space to work in. 

Working in a hospital doesn't give you the insight for the uncoordinated and unscripted production that is pre-hospital care. Everything in a hospital is carefully planned, everything in a hospital is carefully orchestrated, everyone has a role. In the field, in a pre-hospital care setting, the roles are determined by seniority and knowledge. 

@BoxWulf's statement about Physicians not working outside of a hospital is factually incorrect, though he probably didn't have any malice behind it. He said that he "would like one instance where an emergency room attending physician has been sent with a paramedic on a call. " To counter his argument, I'll give him a directory of a fellowship pages which not only REQUIRES Physicians to go out on calls with Paramedics, but trains them on how to go out on their own without a paramedic.  

https://naemsp.org/career-development/fellowship-programs/

It's not a rarity, it's commonplace and it is a trend which is growing ever exponentially. 

[Guest BoxWulf]

45 minutes ago, LordRaven001 said:

@BoxWulf's statement about Physicians not working outside of a hospital is factually incorrect, though he probably didn't have any malice behind it. He said that he "would like one instance where an emergency room attending physician has been sent with a paramedic on a call. " To counter his argument, I'll give him a directory of a fellowship pages which not only REQUIRES Physicians to go out on calls with Paramedics, but trains them on how to go out on their own without a paramedic

I never have any malice behind anything I say. Also, I didn’t say physicians never worked outside of the hospital. My ‘statement’ was that an ATTENDING or on-call emergency physicians do not leave the ER to respond to emergency calls outside of the hospital. I didn’t speak anything regarding fellowships, training, or education.

 

You’re saying that EPs are qualified to be on-site and respond to emergencies. Yes! So is a regular MD, or a paramedic, or a nurse....

It doesn’t detract from my point where I said “...I would like one example...” because I, still, have never heard of an emergency physician LEAVING the EMERGENCY ROOM, to respond to an outside call. 
 

Edit: Thinking more about your post, this isn’t really a counter-argument, it’s more an informative add-on. I genuinely didn’t know that some fellowships (apparently one in NY) actually require on-site first response. That’s impressive.)

Edited January 8, 2020 by BoxWulf

[furrycactus]

Moved to Projects on account of the open PR.

I'll also work on a new uniform for them.

Edited January 8, 2020 by furrycactus