Vision Cones [Feedback]

[Myazaki]

23 minutes ago, DrPockets said:

<snip>

Great feedback, thank you!

[Doc]

Having just completed a crossfire round as security during a test-merge, which ended in a rough draw, I'm frankly really enjoying having to deal with the vision cones. The fact that they inhibit your situational awareness is-.. kind of the point. They create a unique, heightened tension atmosphere that isn't quite the same as when you can always know you can see behind you, making you consider- and be nervous of- flanking and blindsiding maneuvers. That's a good thing in my opinion- I find it fun to have to consider your situation more cautiously and tactically to achieve the same sense of security as you would with magic 360 degree vision. I don't have much of a problem with the lack of the so-called 'sixth sense' that should theoretically allow you to know someone is behind you; I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of ghostly image in the three tiles directly behind you if someone's there, but I don't consider that a necessary change to make the mechanic as a whole worth implementing permanently. Footstep and item use indicator cues, however, I definitely do think are necessary before full implementation- though I'm of the personal opinion that they should only be appearing out to 4-5 tiles, not your entire blocked cone.

 

I didn't find combat particularly problematic during the crossfire-visioncones round. I was even flanked at one point, leaving me injured- but that's not a flaw with the mechanic, that's one of it's intended features, imo, and frankly I was kind of giddy when it happened just from the realization that that's something that can happen now. Again- it's cool, even when I 'lose' because of it! Tactical awareness is a thing, and to be honest I don't even think that vision cones will change traditional antagonist stealth that much- but the affects on typical combat, as just mentioned? I think that's one of the best parts. To those who do have trouble, I do throw out the PSA that if you use hotkeys, as any sane individual should, ctrl+arrow-keys makes you face in a direction without moving that way, and alt+arrow-keys toggles a lock in facing that direction so that you can strafe. These are functions that I've used for years for convenience, but I understand now may be nearly mandatory for effective management of your vision cone- but the fact that some people might not know of them or know how to use them to their fullest extent is not, imo, a reason to knock this PR.

 

I don't feel that Aurora's current mechanical setup is in any way 'not fit' for vision cones; in fact, I went into the round with that prior feedback in mind, and I didn't really have any experiences that even helped me understand the opposing argument. I'm not really sure what it means, and I would encourage anyone who has only said "it doesnt work with our server/mechanics/SS13" to return to the thread and elaborate, if only to help me understand what they mean, as DrPockets did (to which my above explanation of enjoying how it adds to gameplay imo is my reply).

Edited August 11, 2020 by Doc

[Myazaki]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

<snip>

Thanks for the useful feedback @Doc -- I'll see about implementing the footstep thing to try it out, soon!

[Myazaki]

Playing around with something like this https://imgur.com/a/K5Am1m6 for a footstep sound-effect marker

Needs some tweaking to look right -- smaller for one thing, but you get the idea.

[StationCrab]

9 hours ago, Snakebittenn said:

To be fair, we'll never be able to make our server with vision cones in mind if we don't get our foot in the door.

This is a very good point. I felt the floor tile/wall changes were jarring at first, but someone made the point that if we want our own unique server identity and art style, we need to start somewhere. 

I love the idea of the cones, but some of the obvious issues, like objects still being dragged, footprints still being visible, things like that will be abused and people will meta game. That is just a fact. If oddities like that can be fixed it would be an amazing addition. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by StationCrab

[TG_Griffin]

I'm writing feedback based on how it's being implemented in the test merges, though I have looked through the planned features and tweaks. 

Firstly, the work that has gone into this and the work that's planned are impressive and I respect fully those working on this as its something I have no clue about nor am I talented enough to try my hand at it. 
I don't like it personally. It feels clunky and forced reality/perspective in a top-down 2D game with role-play at it's core does not feel right. In its current state it makes the game personally unplayable for me with people just disappearing and reappearing once they travel behind your character. As has been said previously perception is more then just seeing people. If it's not broke, there's no need to fix it. 
 

[Valkrae]

Right, fresh off of another Xenobiology round to tell my complaints.

It's absolute hell to have to constantly shift, and turn around to see mobs in order to drag them out of cells. Sure, I can imagine this wouldn't be tedious for another job that isn't as reliant on ctrl-click pulling, but I have to constantly shift my view in order to see the rest of the slimes/monkeys/dead golems I'm pulling out of Containment Chambers.

If there was a sort of pre-vision to where you can see what was just behind you as if you 'remember' it being there, that would make my job a lot easier. 

[Pratepresidenten]

3 hours ago, Valkrae said:

Right, fresh off of another Xenobiology round to tell my complaints.

It's absolute hell to have to constantly shift, and turn around to see mobs in order to drag them out of cells. Sure, I can imagine this wouldn't be tedious for another job that isn't as reliant on ctrl-click pulling, but I have to constantly shift my view in order to see the rest of the slimes/monkeys/dead golems I'm pulling out of Containment Chambers.

If there was a sort of pre-vision to where you can see what was just behind you as if you 'remember' it being there, that would make my job a lot easier. 

You can just face-direction to yknow, actually walk backwards when you pull so you see the thing you're pulling.

[Myazaki]

I would like some feedback about the footstep indicators that went in today! Thanks!

[Mcspizzy]

I love the cone, keep it ingame for a million years. As for the pulling issue of not being able to see what you are pulling, it might be time to implement what other servers have done and have the player automatically face whatever they pull for as long as they are pulling it - unless they manually face another direction while stationary.

[ThelonTV]

Please, please, please make it so you can see /me if the person is within 1 tile range, even if they are not directly in your sight.

What will happen to [Player1] slowly sneaks up to [Player2] and pokes them?

[Myazaki]

26 minutes ago, Mcspizzy said:

I love the cone, keep it ingame for a million years. As for the pulling issue of not being able to see what you are pulling, it might be time to implement what other servers have done and have the player automatically face whatever they pull for as long as they are pulling it - unless they manually face another direction while stationary.

People should be able to see things they pull. I will check this.

[Myazaki]

23 minutes ago, ThelonTV said:

Please, please, please make it so you can see /me if the person is within 1 tile range, even if they are not directly in your sight.

What will happen to [Player1] slowly sneaks up to [Player2] and pokes them?

Mmm, this is probably sensible? I'll think about the best way to do it.

[Screemers]

Just did a round with it and... I personally hate it.

That fact that someone standing on your side suddenly disappears is really annoying in a game with limitations like this one. It is not only making combat way harder, it is also making simple RP more difficult as you don't necessarily see people moving around you...

If the mechanic were to stay, I'll suggest having a 360 vision of about 3 tiles around the character before fading in the back. Like that you will keep a good vision of close elements while allowing a blind spot that could be exploited.

Also, adjusting the cone to the headgear someone is wearing would be more acceptable. My previous example of the 360 vision on 3 tiles could be for someone without anything on the head, but as soon you wear a voidsuit, the current implementation where the cone starts from you is the one the person would see (simulating the more restricted vision of the helmet). That way, you have a drawback to the more powerful gear people are using. Making things a bit more balanced between your resistance and the capacity to see your attacker.

But yeah, personally ill just vote scrap it off.

[ryog]

I've played a few rounds with it, and while I can see the merit in the stealth-based gameplay, I do share the sentiment of people saying that it's quite disorienting when people suddenly disappear when you turn. I haven't read all the feedback to know if this was already suggested or if it's currently in progress, but I want to suggest perhaps a "last seen" aspect to prevent the whole sudden disappearance, where the tile itself doesn't change once you turn your back, and it could update once you gain sight of the tile/mob in question again. 

As it stands, I cannot currently put my support down for it as I feel that it's a bit too clunky in its current version.

[CampinKiller]

One problem I noticed - if you're running from something like bats or viscerators that you have to hit to destroy (ie. actually click on them), it's nearly impossible to fire behind you while doing so, so you have to stay put to do it

[Myazaki]

7 hours ago, CampinKiller said:

One problem I noticed - if you're running from something like bats or viscerators that you have to hit to destroy (ie. actually click on them), it's nearly impossible to fire behind you while doing so, so you have to stay put to do it

Have you tried using the Face Direction verb or hotkeys to make your character look behind you, while you run?

[Myazaki]

9 hours ago, ryog said:

 but I want to suggest perhaps a "last seen" aspect to prevent the whole sudden disappearance, where the tile itself doesn't change once you turn your back, and it could update once you gain sight of the tile/mob in question again. 

I think I will do this and test it out -- Keep the player's last-seen while you cannot see them, maybe make it fade over like 10 seconds (or something).

Edited August 13, 2020 by Myazaki

[whiterabit]

2 hours ago, Myazaki said:

Have you tried using the Face Direction verb or hotkeys to make your character look behind you, while you run?

On that point the only other server I personally know of that uses vision cones has that hotkey built into the basic control scheme. It's probably a good idea to roll face-direction into an easy default hotkey for accessibility. Even if custom hotkeys are easy to make, new players in my experience don't make them for a while and face-direction is a pretty important one for vision cones.

I think right now it's only default bound to alt + arrow keys if I recall? Which isn't super intuitive if you're using WASD and last time I played regularly it had an inconsistent issue of trying to access my byond toolbar.

[Zelmana]

1 hour ago, whiterabit said:

On that point the only other server I personally know of that uses vision cones has that hotkey built into the basic control scheme. It's probably a good idea to roll face-direction into an easy default hotkey for accessibility. Even if custom hotkeys are easy to make, new players in my experience don't make them for a while and face-direction is a pretty important one for vision cones.

I think right now it's only default bound to alt + arrow keys if I recall? Which isn't super intuitive if you're using WASD and last time I played regularly it had an inconsistent issue of trying to access my byond toolbar.

That and a viscerator swarm is going to mess you up when they attack from all directions and you have to alt click in all directions just to find out where they are yet alone begin attacking.

 

I've played a few more rounds with this on, as well as the most recent updates to it, and I still very much dislike it. It gives me a head-achey feeling from being so disorienting if anything reasonably fast paced occurs. 

[Myazaki]

1 hour ago, Zelmana said:

That and a viscerator swarm is going to mess you up when they attack from all directions and you have to alt click in all directions just to find out where they are yet alone begin attacking.

Maybe it's fine for a viscerator swarm to be scary to fight alone?

[Myazaki]

3 hours ago, whiterabit said:

On that point the only other server I personally know of that uses vision cones has that hotkey built into the basic control scheme. It's probably a good idea to roll face-direction into an easy default hotkey for accessibility. Even if custom hotkeys are easy to make, new players in my experience don't make them for a while and face-direction is a pretty important one for vision cones.

I think right now it's only default bound to alt + arrow keys if I recall? Which isn't super intuitive if you're using WASD and last time I played regularly it had an inconsistent issue of trying to access my byond toolbar.

I'll see if I can make better hotkeys by default ?

[Doc]

Can confirm that the default hotkeys for facedir and lockdir aren't particularly ergonomic, especially in high tension situations like combat. Rebinding them somewhere easily used would be wonderful.

 

Additionally, having played with footstep indicators, they work great and fix a good amount of issues with the lack of reasonable information in your blocked field of vision. However, I've noticed that the theoretical typing indicator that you're supposed to see even when it's behind you hasn't been working. Is that going to be fixed soon? Walking away from people talking to you because you can't see it remains one of the major problems stopping me from just saying "merge this now".

[Myazaki]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

However, I've noticed that the theoretical typing indicator that you're supposed to see even when it's behind you hasn't been working. Is that going to be fixed soon?

Yeah, I'll make that a priority! Thanks.

[StationCrab]

10 hours ago, Myazaki said:

Yeah, I'll make that a priority! Thanks.

This may be unrelated to your PR but there seems to be a unique issue with borgs that cause their speech bubble to get stuck on permanently, this might make it so sneaking is impossible for them.