Removing the command whitelists of players that haven't played for a year or more.

[geeves]

I agree with the idea, and I think the intent is to prevent command players who don't have an idea what's going on from hotdropping into a canon lore event, which I always think is rude and silly.

The main problem is stripping it comes at the same penalty as losing it if you get banned or whatever, you have to do the entire rigamarole again. If there was a shorter "reapplication" style application which doesn't have a massive trial and the need to give a character's backstory, possibly just detailing recent lore events that's relevant to command members, that'd be great.

Regardless, even without the reapplication style application, I would still be for this.

[MccRrib]

Big +1, bring on the purge.

 

Can we extend this to species whitelists as well?

[MattAtlas]

The purge wouldn't really be a recurring thing. Doing it once to get rid of players that have been inactive in the 'modern age' so to speak of Aurora is enough, honestly. The thing is, server expectations and character quality have changed so much from 2016 to 2020 that Aurora is basically an entirely different server. And people from 2016 do often return to play command roles without "re-integrating" first.

3 minutes ago, 4000daniel1 said:

Not whitelisted myself, but I feel like it'd make more sense to just remove the whitelists of the people who do return without taking time to catch up as command and cause issues. Since I'm sure a lot of the inactive command players would take some time to ease themselves in, punishing them just to deal with the ones who wont doesn't feel entirely fair.

This is essentially what we're doing by making older players have to go through a trial again. You aren't really being punished here; nothing is being held against you, you just need to play for some weeks regularly, reapply and get your whitelist again. You would have no trouble with this if you are a good player.

2 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Command whitelists arent a lore check. They exist only as a commitment check. If you're the type of person who passed it once and stopped playing here for a few years there is no reason to remove it from you. Changing mechanics and standards dont matter that much. 

I don't really entirely agree. Command whitelists are also a competency check. You stop being as competent at the game and at command if you're inactive for too long. You also stop being in line with what current standards for whitelistees are. We are much harsher on command whitelistees now than in 2017, for example. Competency absolutely does matter when you are playing captain or head of security; many inactive players return with a completely different mindset regarding antagonists and our expectations for security, which have also changed a lot since back then.

[wowzewow]

Second this. Command staff is significantly more pivotal these days.

 

Wherein the past, a clever underling can pick up the slack for a poorly playing leader, with all the new lore intrigue and whatever stuff is cooking,

an incompetent command member can really just shoot anything interesting in the foot.

[MattAtlas]

1 minute ago, geeves said:

If there was a shorter "reapplication" style application which doesn't have a massive trial and the need to give a character's backstory,

We haven't required character backstories in command apps for years now. Besides, the trial is just 7 days where you can play anything in command bar consular. And your app goes on trial in 3 days anyway.

[Vinni.Dragon]

1 minute ago, MccRrib said:

Big +1, bring on the purge.

 

Can we extend this to species whitelists as well?

I don't think it would be as appropriate for species whitelists, since there aren't a limited number of slots for playing certain species and overall it doesn't fuck too hard with the mechanics and such, but I think I can see where this sentiment is coming from

[Owen]

2 minutes ago, Valkrae said:

I don't agree that it's a weak reason at all. People can easily burn out of spess, if they hyperfixate on it for too long. But, eventually, I'll want to play it again. I'll want to play Command, but if I have to re-apply for Command, that's not going to incentivize me to return to Aurora. 

Some people may have outstanding circumstances that prevent them from being able to play Aurora for a year. Others, may just not have the interest to play at the current point in time. 

I know that my stance is an unpopular one, and I'm okay with that. I simply think that outright stripping whitelists is a bad move.

I completely get the burnout aspect of things, I think we've all experienced that. Maybe there can be another way of incentivizing people from just jumping right back in with the expectations that things are going to be the same as they were when they left here. I think that we could use having some more strict expectations of command players overall--they are most commonly a big part of the driving forces that can make a round tolerable or not.

Another solution could just be a streamlined application for people who lose their whitelist that just serves as a check that they are back and up to date on the most essential changes that have happened recently on the server. 

[Haydizzle]

Whitelists would be a lore thing to talk over, as a note, and wouldn't be relevant here (if you want maximum discourse though, make a suggestion thread)

[geeves]

1 minute ago, MattAtlas said:

We haven't required character backstories in command apps for years now. Besides, the trial is just 7 days where you can play anything in command bar consular. And your app goes on trial in 3 days anyway.

Damn, I haven't looked at the application in a while. I think the aesthetic is more important to consider than the actual procedure. It's human nature to not want to do the same thing again, especially if the reason you have to do it is inactivity rather than punishment. From a psychology perspective, I think people would receive it better if the application seemed easier, not as harsh, fair, etc.

[Lucaken]

Good idea. I think people forget how long an entire year is, and if you see no meaningful activity during that time, it's definitely cause for concern, and has 100% been the bane of many events. I heavily expect the NBT weekends to be even worse regarding this issue, so this seems prudent.

[4000daniel1]

1 minute ago, MattAtlas said:

The purge wouldn't really be a recurring thing. Doing it once to get rid of players that have been inactive in the 'modern age' so to speak of Aurora is enough, honestly. The thing is, server expectations and character quality have changed so much from 2016 to 2020 that Aurora is basically an entirely different server. And people from 2016 do often return to play command roles without "re-integrating" first.

This is essentially what we're doing by making older players have to go through a trial again. You aren't really being punished here; nothing is being held against you, you just need to play for some weeks regularly, reapply and get your whitelist again. You would have no trouble with this if you are a good player.

Oh I see, I thought they would have to more or less remake the whole application. Just having them do a trial is a thing I can agree with, good way to monitor them to make sure they did actually catch up on stuff before jumping on command.

[MattAtlas]

7 minutes ago, 4000daniel1 said:

Oh I see, I thought they would have to more or less remake the whole application. Just having them do a trial is a thing I can agree with, good way to monitor them to make sure they did actually catch up on stuff before jumping on command.

They would have to remake the application anyway, yes, but applications are like maybe 15 minutes of effort at most. We need them to make a forum thread anyway so we can track things like when they re-applied, characters, etc.

[Rushodan]

I don't really know what this achieves.

Passing the command whitelist isn't about activity, it's about displaying your capability to play in a role that requires more trust due to round impact. I came and went fairly often (mostly due to real life impacts as my years have been insane with hospital stays, house moves etc) and have never had an issue re-integrating as I check to see what I missed out on. 

We already have a system for removing whitelists if people cannot adhere to the standard and there is no practical reason to change that. Ahelps and player reports do this job fine; setting a precedent to strip people of things they worked kinda hard on because they MIGHT not play properly on return seems short-sighted.

Hard no from me, you are punishing people who have done nothing wrong on the basis they could change their standards upon returning. A note for them to get caught up is more than enough. I guess I am so against this because I can look back at my own situation some years ago and know I would have quit the Aurora if my whitelist was stripped for what I would have perceived to be zero reason.

[MattAtlas]

1 minute ago, Rushodan said:

I don't really know what this achieves.

Passing the command whitelist isn't about activity, it's about displaying your capability to play in a role that requires more trust due to round impact. I came and went fairly often (mostly due to real life impacts as my years have been insane with hospital stays, house moves etc) and have never had an issue re-integrating as I check to see what I missed out on. 

We already have a system for removing whitelists if people cannot adhere to the standard and there is no practical reason to change that. Ahelps and player reports do this job fine; setting a precedent to strip people of things they worked kinda hard on because they MIGHT not play properly on return seems short-sighted.

Hard no from me, you are punishing people who have done nothing wrong on the basis they could change their standards upon returning. A note for them to get caught up is more than enough. I guess I am so against this because I can look back at my own situation some years ago and know I would have quit the Aurora if my whitelist was stripped for what I would have perceived to be zero reason.

I'm going to address the three different bits here.

1. Activity is a factor in command whitelists. You need to be active enough to actually get feedback so that we know you've played rounds and are well integrated into the server. If you haven't played since 2017-2018, and you came back now, the server would be entirely different, and your competency (thus, capability to play a role) would be severely worse. You may have come and gone fairly often, but you're a moderator and inadvertently, through that position, keep being updated on server matters.

2. We do have a system for removing whitelists, but that does not account for what will be the tide of returning players when the NBT comes. I would like as few rounds as possible to be affected by command players like the ones described in the post. To be frank, getting a command whitelist is not at all hard, and a returning player quitting because of them being forced to reapply is a little weird.

3. Being made to reapply is not a punishment, and this is also not something we plan to do again. There's nothing being held against you in the future. All you'll need to do is go through the very simple application process and get your whitelist back. At most it would take a week or two of playing, enough to get a few people vouching for you, and then you're set again.

[Rushodan]

1 minute ago, MattAtlas said:

I'm going to address the three different bits here.

1. Activity is a factor in command whitelists. You need to be active enough to actually get feedback so that we know you've played rounds and are well integrated into the server. If you haven't played since 2017-2018, and you came back now, the server would be entirely different, and your competency (thus, capability to play a role) would be severely worse. You may have come and gone fairly often, but you're a moderator and inadvertently, through that position, keep being updated on server matters.

2. We do have a system for removing whitelists, but that does not account for what will be the tide of returning players when the NBT comes. I would like as few rounds as possible to be affected by command players like the ones described in the post. To be frank, getting a command whitelist is not at all hard, and a returning player quitting because of them being forced to reapply is a little weird.

3. Being made to reapply is not a punishment, and this is also not something we plan to do again. There's nothing being held against you in the future. All you'll need to do is go through the very simple application process and get your whitelist back. At most it would take a week or two of playing, enough to get a few people vouching for you, and then you're set again.

You know what, that is all actually pretty reasonable. I still don't know if I like it but that was a well constructed argument and I guess if we decide to go through with it then fair enough. 👍

[Marlon P.]

Why would it be worse to let people prove they can still play command?

Whitelists get removed for misbehavior. What misbehavior is occuring here?

There are incremental policies that will continue to chip away at the command playerbase.

Applying for command is a cumbersome process. 

This policy is infantalizing; players who want to pop in after a year will find themselves feeling unwelcomed if they lose their whitelists because they went on a haitus.

Otherwise explain why 365 days of inactivity makes someone fundementally incapable of playing a command role, and why they wouldnt just immediately hop servers to play command on another.

(I dont have a command whitelist)

[NG+7 Gael]

Big +1 from me, people who haven't played since- like Matt said- 2015/2016, should absolutely have to reapply for Command and show their understanding of current lore and atmosphere, as well as general competency, to reacquire their whitelist. Especially with NBT coming soon, it would be the best time to do so in order to keep Command clear of those types of players. I think Command roles typically have too much ability to shift the direction of a round for players who haven't played in that long to just come back and jump back into it without any re-introduction to the server.

[MattAtlas]

5 minutes ago, Marlon P. said:

Why would it be worse to let people prove they can still play command?

Whitelists get removed for misbehavior. What misbehavior is occuring here?

There are incremental policies that will continue to chip away at the command playerbase.

Applying for command is a cumbersome process. 

This policy is infantalizing; players who want to pop in after a year will find themselves feeling unwelcomed if they lose their whitelists because they went on a haitus.

Otherwise explain why 365 days of inactivity makes someone fundementally incapable of playing a command role, and why they wouldnt just immediately hop servers to play command on another.

(I dont have a command whitelist)

1. This is how they can prove they can still play command - by undergoing the app+trial. I want to have them do this first to again minimize the chances of things going wrong in the nbt tests.

2. Whitelists don't only get removed for misbehaviour and it has never been said that their removal only happens because of it. Removal is at the discretion of the whitelist team

3. Applying for command is not cumbersome: the application is massively simplified compared to years ago, it's now fifteen minutes odd of writing with a seven day trial where you're free to play command as you want to.

4. I explained why in the comments a few times already. As for people hopping onto other servers to play command, they're free to do it if they don't want to go through a very simple reapplication process. There's more to Aurora than just command roles.

[Juani2400]

This penalises people who would otherwise take their time to catch up with updates in lore and command-related matters to get back to playing Command and would be perfectly fit players. Command whitelists were never given out to ensure lore compliance, but to ensure people knew their shit about the server and could maintain a high level of quality with their characters' portrayal and function in the role. These two key pieces don't really change over time, and if they do, it's a matter of a couple rounds to catch up once again.

I can't favor this change with how it's been planned. It'd be pushing out a great deal of good quality RPers out of critical positions that require them the most. Implement cooldowns, make them do a few rounds as non-command before allowing them back into command roles automatically, but outright removing their whitelist is excessive.

[Marlon P.]

10 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

Whitelists don't only get removed for misbehaviour and it has never been said that their removal only happens because of it. Removal is at the discretion of the whitelist team

Unless you can say strips are intentionally arbitrary, WL removals come when youre deemed to fail to follow the standards- this what a punishment is.

10 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

As for people hopping onto other servers to play command, they're free to do it if they don't want to go through a very simple reapplication process. There's more to Aurora than just command roles.

Willingly giving up potential players to other servers is harmful to server health. Why not just start banning people at random with the note to play elsewhere? That will be just as arbitrary.

What has changed about playing HoP in the last 365 days that someone after this time would instantly become too incapable to play the role?

Edited January 18, 2022 by Marlon P.

[Zelmana]

I support this for the simple reason that I think we will be experiencing an influx of returning players and it would make sense for there to be a reintegration period before letting them play their Captain player.
You know.
Piloting a ship.
Policy changes.
etc.

[MattAtlas]

3 minutes ago, Marlon P. said:

Unless you can say strips are intentionally arbitrary, WL removals come when youre deemed to fail to follow the standards- this what a punishment is.

Willingly giving up potential players to other servers is harmful to server health. Why not just start banning people at random with the note to play elsewhere? That will be just as arbitrary.

What has changed about playing HoP in the last 365 days that someone after this time would instantly become too incapable to play the role?

1. I didn't say strips are arbitrary. There's a staff complaint system in place to make sure that they are not. Whitelists can be stripped for other reasons if they are found to be appropriate.

2. This isn't a slippery slope. Just because I want to remove the whitelists of people that haven't played in a year, doesn't mean I'll end up banning random people.

3. I already said this enough in the comments. I'm not going to repeat myself.

[Garnascus]

3 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

1. This is how they can prove they can still play command - by undergoing the app+trial. I want to have them do this first to again minimize the chances of things going wrong in the nbt tests.

They passed the trial once. They should not have to prove anything to you.

4 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

2. Whitelists don't only get removed for misbehaviour and it has never been said that their removal only happens because of it. Removal is at the discretion of the whitelist team

When would you remove the whitelist of someone based on their conduct that did not result in a ban?

It seems like a lot of people in their heads have this idea that the sever "atmopshere" is changing such that a command player from a few years ago would be unable to perform their duties. I think a CMO would definitely need to re-learn medical since we switched to brainmed but every other job has stayed relatively the same. The gameplay loop has not fundamentally changed and the relevant changes to the lore can be explained to you in a paragraph. A head of security from 5 years ago would have no difficulty performing his job now. A CE could read a single paragraph on the phoron scarcity arc and understand it completely.... Its really not difficult and we are lying to ourselves if we think otherwise. 

[Marlon P.]

2 minutes ago, Zelmana said:

I support this for the simple reason that I think we will be experiencing an influx of returning players and it would make sense for there to be a reintegration period before letting them play their Captain player.
You know.
Piloting a ship.
Policy changes.
etc.

Nobody will know how to do this. You are just as capable of flying the ship as I am, and i was gone for a year. Until NBT launches there's no one that can follow this standard.

[Marlon P.]

1 minute ago, Garnascus said:

They passed the trial once. They should not have to prove anything to you.

When would you remove the whitelist of someone based on their conduct that did not result in a ban?

It seems like a lot of people in their heads have this idea that the sever "atmopshere" is changing such that a command player from a few years ago would be unable to perform their duties. I think a CMO would definitely need to re-learn medical since we switched to brainmed but every other job has stayed relatively the same. The gameplay loop has not fundamentally changed and the relevant changes to the lore can be explained to you in a paragraph. A head of security from 5 years ago would have no difficulty performing his job now. A CE could read a single paragraph on the phoron scarcity arc and understand it completely.... Its really not difficult and we are lying to ourselves if we think otherwise. 

I agree with everything here with every fiber of my being. Its what i was trying to say but better.