1 dismissal Remove Cyborg

[Garnascus]

 

-1 voting for dismissal. 

Always had enjoyable experiences playing alongside a borg. 

[MattAtlas]

42 minutes ago, Carver said:

Didn't we have separate modules for engineering and medical - as in, two separate ones per department with specialization?

Yes, the point is that each of those cyborgs does the humans' job but better, without their limitations on knowledge.

[ImmortalRedshirt]

As with many other ancient holdovers, borgs were designed with a different style of gameplay in mind, and I believe they run counter to what we should be encouraging. Aurora is meant to be a server about the lives and interactions of people we find interesting. At its best, we get invested in these characters because of their interests, their personalities, their backgrounds and flaws, and how these create relationships both good and bad. Borgs, however, act as "anticharacters", they have none of these traits. By design, they're faceless mooks with no lives and personalities. Contrast this with IPCs, who were also synthetics designed with the same nature of servitude in mind, but have the capacity for independent thought that gives them the ability to be interesting characters.

I agree with the other sentiments about having your job taken by an automaton that feels neither pain nor any other need, but I wanted to focus on one point specifically in this post.

[Fluffy]

I think if the problem is that the borgs "steal your job", it sounds fairly easy to fix with a new guideline, something like "if the role needed to address this issue is filled, do not address the issue unless ordered to do so"

 

Someone is there? The player will address the issue, sooner or later
It's the thousand time there's no engineers and we're all going out of power? Send the generic borg (maybe limited to 2 slots or so?) to start the reactor, or whatever else it might be that need to be done, but noone else in the appropriate department is doing it

 

I don't know how many times the borgs have saved the day by making medications or starting the engine, their outright removal sounds like it would be for the worse

[Montyfatcat]

1 minute ago, Fluffy said:

(maybe limited to 2 slots or so?)

Borg is already limited in the ballpark of 3 borgs per round, with more only coming in through positronic activation. The issue comes when borgs arrive during a well populated round, where all necessary jobs are already filled and done. Mediborgs are tolerated through gritted teeth because they can make chems for when the basic shit can't solve it, and engiborgs can save the day when nobody wants to hop on engineer, but here's the thing.

If all they serve is as a disposable "this needs doing" character, then just make that character. I have a pharmacist that I'll use to make chems when I'm feeling nice, he doesn't have much of a character but he exists for that purpose. I could do the same as a borg, but then I'd have all these hoops to jump through.

If people feel like they can't have disposable "fine I'll do it myself" characters then that's a mentality issue, and a temporary character is as effective a bandaid as a cyborg is with the added benefit of not having the capacity to be a mid to late round annoyance attached (do the job and cryo if you hate it, instead of hoping a machinist shows up to reset you)

 

Honestly, there isn't as much lost as people think there is. The most that's lost is a few borg enjoyers not having their favourite role, but if the role is inherently problematic then that's something that might need to be stomached.

[Fluffy]

Maybe limit them to join only during low population then?

 

Though I'm sure before we get a pharmacist, 10 people would have picked something else instead, be it doctors surgeons security or anything else that has more "fun/mechanic/things to do/how you want to call it", so having a robot that goes around doing what does not yet have a coverage seems like a good idea, i also had some fun interacting with borgs

 

I'd like them to stay personally, with the detail that they don't go and do something that someone else is qualified on the station to do, unless asked

[Kintsugi]

I have never encountered a convincing argument for the idea that cyborgs are a necessary and beneficial component of either the gameplay loop or the roleplay setting. Cyborgs are non-characters hamstrung from meaningfully contributing to roleplay by their very nature and mechanically they just rob gameplay from extant jobs and characters by virtue of being so single-minded and tailor-made for their role. They are a grandfathered-in remnant of /tg/ and Goonstation's idea of a good mechanical concept - and we stand to lose nothing by removing them. I would be happy to see them go, and give this proposal my whole-hearted support.

[ElizabethDame]

I play BORE GM-9, and while I could agree with several of the things said here, at the same time I feel partially appalled by how much this thread makes me feel like I'm on a whole different world.

Overall, there are better and worse borgs, and I myself fall somewhere in the middle as my roleplayings standards waiver depending on how tired I am as a euro who plays late for hi-pop.

I do hope borgs are kept in, perhaps given some new lore. As I've definetely enjoyed roleplaying my specific character so far. 

From what I've read, it's obvious the main issue is borgs stealing jobs. Which overall can easily be fixed by merely as the borg player asking and putting yourself in a place where you're either needed or wanted.

There are jobs like xenobotanist which get ignored completely, and I'm more than glad than helping. Even the past few rounds I've had medical asking me for chemistry help because of the lack of pharmacists, and this is on 20 pop and such.

[Boggle08]

The core issue is that borg characters fly against the convention of job knowledge, access restrictions, and several different mechanics that most of the playable mobs in the game have to contend with. In order to facilitate them without absolutely ruining the experience, They operate with their lawset, but also numerous unspoken conventions that reduce the experience to playing an appliance. Borgs have shitty characterization because there's actually incentive against characterization. I've spoken numerous times about it with synthetic lore and the mods, and there is a general disdain seeing borgs that have a personality and form attachments. It ends with them violating the principles of the job, or their lawset outright in the pursuit of the relationships they form.

Cyborgs and bound intelligences deal with some interesting themes, but there is very little wiggle room to actually explore them, and no investment from most of the station because they expect you to just be an appliance. At this point, you can better tread over the themes presented in the station bound role by playing certain IPC backgrounds, or even do what I did and play a heavily, heavily augmented human.

The only way for stationbounds to have a real future beyond removal or stagnation is if they are rebuilt, practically from the ground up, to cut back on the omnipotence/omniscience the job currently manifests, and yet still have it so they can be of some use in their niche as department vacancy fillers. 

[Flpfs]

14 hours ago, ElizabethDame said:

From what I've read, it's obvious the main issue is borgs stealing jobs. Which overall can easily be fixed by merely as the borg player asking and putting yourself in a place where you're either needed or wanted.

What's the point of playing cyborg if not to do a job? If we always tell cyborgs to just go away, they have nothing to do, and it makes the role useless. It already has no avenues for roleplay, and they interfere with situations on the ship.

[ElizabethDame]

18 minutes ago, Flpfs said:

What's the point of playing cyborg if not to do a job? If we always tell cyborgs to just go away, they have nothing to do, and it makes the role useless. It already has no avenues for roleplay, and they interfere with situations on the ship.

Then you find and occupy yourself with someone else, preferably through roleplay or what-not. Department work isn't the be all and end all, seeing as for most, including borgs, it only leads to mechanics being done. Which as a whole is one big other issue with most HRP servers, the way how the roundly setup makes it that at least the first hour of any job is more or less just one big mundane setup. Afterwhich you either continue doing more mechanical objectives, or do wee tad of roleplay before the round eventually ends at 2-3 hours, which is comically low in comparison to other places.

 

Overall while cyborg's could use some more lore, guidelines, perhaps even a whitelist, I don't think that they should be outright stripped from the playerbase as an option. Be it for the fact that they can fill in for the lack of a surgeon, engineer, even a scientist or chef. If the pop was more than a generic 20 most times, mostly not filled in by like 5-7 security members, Maybe I would agree. 

[ElizabethDame]

1 hour ago, Boggle08 said:

The only way for stationbounds to have a real future beyond removal or stagnation is if they are rebuilt, practically from the ground up, to cut back on the omnipotence/omniscience the job currently manifests, and yet still have it so they can be of some use in their niche as department vacancy fillers. 

Tbh I doubt any coder on Aurora will ever touch them. Which is honestly a shame, as I find it rather disappointing to see a sci-fi setting where robots wouldn't apparently be present. IPC's generally don't scratch that itch as for the most part they're just synthetic humans in the way most play them.

Nevertheless, I could see a guideline which says that a borgs knowledge is limited to their assigned department working out, and access by module being nice additions. 

[EJJ]

I will admit, it feels like a lot of the things against borgs are "I saw this once and I don't have any screenshots nor did I ahelp it" which I feel we should NEVER give any creedence. Anyone can say they saw something. I can say I saw a medborg acting as a secoff and threatening an antag with a circular saw just a week ago!!!!! No one except admins with logs can debate me on that!

Borgs have been unmaintained for a while. A lot of stuff on Aurora has been unmaintained or kinda maintained for a while since prepping for NBT was the whole big thing. The issue is finding someone who wants to/has the time and motivation. I would love to but I lack any of the skill.

If the situation with borgs is so unrecoverable then we should put them behind a WL until a plan for changing them is in place. We've already removed so many roles as is it feels like Aurora is shrinking and losing RP opportunity rather than gaining it.

I also find it funny this only comes back up again after the Cyborgification Arc.

[Fluffy]

Maybe they have to "download" the knowledge from somewhere in round? Like you download software to do things, so you'd have a list of things you can do, maybe in a "tech tree"

So you like, download the "engineering" general module, then the "ship reactor control", if you need to repair something you have to wipe the "ship reactor control" and download the "maintenance protocols" because you have limited memory available, and so on?

Just tossing some possibilities to think of

 

But I think removing roles is a negative in general, players that enjoy playing borg will either play less or be lost from the station if what they like is removed, considering how, in my limited experience, the station feels more often than not an abandoned station with entire halls of unfilled or unused areas, I'd reckon the very first objective is getting and keeping players, something which removing gameplay style possibilities seems antithetical of

[Evandorf]

I agree. While I still think the issue is primarily subjective if there is enough of a consensus that something should be done a whitelist is probably the best and easiest option to attempt first.

If, as many of the anti-borg posts have said, a whitelist would only serve to kill off the role then I don’t see why they would be opposed to it as it serves their interests. I personally don’t believe it will kill off the role but it is a good compromise that still allows those interested in the role to play it.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Evandorf

[Flpfs]

Why would whitelisting cyborg change how it works? It's still at the core of its issue, bad by design. You cannot change how cyborg plays. The reason for this removal suggestion is not because cyborgs don't do their jobs, it's because they simply do not fit into the game. Changing the player in the cyborg mob doesn't change how the role itself works.

[KingOfThePing]

2 hours ago, Boggle08 said:

The core issue is that borg characters fly against the convention of job knowledge, access restrictions, and several different mechanics that most of the playable mobs in the game have to contend with. In order to facilitate them without absolutely ruining the experience, They operate with their lawset, but also numerous unspoken conventions that reduce the experience to playing an appliance. Borgs have shitty characterization because there's actually incentive against characterization. I've spoken numerous times about it with synthetic lore and the mods, and there is a general disdain seeing borgs that have a personality and form attachments. It ends with them violating the principles of the job, or their lawset outright in the pursuit of the relationships they form.

Cyborgs and bound intelligences deal with some interesting themes, but there is very little wiggle room to actually explore them, and no investment from most of the station because they expect you to just be an appliance. At this point, you can better tread over the themes presented in the station bound role by playing certain IPC backgrounds, or even do what I did and play a heavily, heavily augmented human.

The only way for stationbounds to have a real future beyond removal or stagnation is if they are rebuilt, practically from the ground up, to cut back on the omnipotence/omniscience the job currently manifests, and yet still have it so they can be of some use in their niche as department vacancy fillers. 

I think this sums it up very well, but I have one addition - there have been very good stationbounds in the past, most of the time by people actually putting in the effort and viewing them from a character perspective, however limited that may be. I will never forget ORB or Arlo (an AI that is still played, I believe, from time to time). They were an excellent stationbound and are an excellent AI with a character, well within allowed limits, yet incredibly well played. 

You can argue that this may be "one of many" who actually puts in the effort, but if arguments like "I saw this once and it irked me" are considered, then this one as a counter-argument should be as well. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by KingOfThePing

[Evandorf]

33 minutes ago, Flpfs said:

Why would whitelisting cyborg change how it works? It's still at the core of its issue, bad by design. You cannot change how cyborg plays. The reason for this removal suggestion is not because cyborgs don't do their jobs, it's because they simply do not fit into the game. Changing the player in the cyborg mob doesn't change how the role itself works.

This is what I mean when I say I think the issue is subjective. You think they don’t fit but  I do. It’s a matter of opinion and after so many replies on both sides I don’t think anyone is changing anyone else’s mind. That’s why a compromise is needed. The minimum a whitelist will do is to reduce the number of borgs you run into, which should be good if you are irked by borgs. If implemented properly then whitelists can also be used to cultivate a better average borg player.

For those who like the stationbounds the whitelist would keep the role we like to play at the cost of having to go through the whitelist procedure and the long-term cost of reducing the popularity of the role as it becomes less accessible to others. This may lead to support for the role withering entirely but it keeps it viable for possible reworks without being removed.

[niennab]

If anything I think the contentious nature of this thread should highlight that the server is divided and as such, removal would not be healthy for the server.

But, I think some ground can be made towards improving stationbounds in our setting that shouldn’t involve a lot of changes in terms of the code. 

I think it was put very aptly to me when a friend mentioned how if you were to play an IPC, they fall conceptually somewhere between machine and human. However, a stationbound would instead fall conceptually somewhere between machine and IPC. A stationbound and an IPC are similar, but ultimately different, leading to a fascinating question of just how close of a kinship they can truly share.

Nonetheless, here are a few thoughts I had in regards to fixes.

Would locking stationbounds into one department improve the question of ‘stealing jobs’? That way the stationbound is constrained to similar limitations as any other character would be.

The lore by and large needs to change or see new additions so as to better encourage character development. I think we’re forgetting just how powerful the lore can be in regards to this situation. And it would require little to no coding. Hell, an arc could be woven around any substantial changes.

If it comes down to removal being the only feasible option at this time, as much as I’d disagree with it, then we might as well put stationbounds on the IPC or (more likely) AI whitelist until further changes can be made.

Edited October 14, 2022 by niennab

[DriedMilk]

i think flatout removing all borgs is too much, the stealing jobs issue comes from medical and engineering frames most of the time because they are flatout OP compared to the rest of the other frames and their carbon mob counterparts. if medical and engineering frames were wiped off the face of the earth, that'd be cool 

[Evandorf]

13 minutes ago, niennab said:

The lore by and large needs to change or see new additions so as to better encourage character development. I think we’re forgetting just how powerful the lore can be in regards to this situation. And it would require little to no coding. Hell, an arc could be woven around any substantial changes.

I still think it would be interesting to move borgs into research completely and have the RD or other staff be able to loan them out to other departments as needed. The AI is already housed in research so it would make thematic sense. 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Evandorf
Clarity, loan not rent

[Evandorf]

This also would tie into Cybs’ suggestion of moving the roboticist more into research and away from ops. 

[Dreamix]

2 hours ago, Evandorf said:

If, as many of the anti-borg posts have said, a whitelist would only serve to kill off the role then I don’t see why they would be opposed to it as it serves their interests. I personally don’t believe it will kill off the role but it is a good compromise that still allows those interested in the role to play it.

A whitelist is just pushing additional work onto the admin/moderation team. Someone has to write up the application forms, go over the applicants, code the whitelist to be functional in game, etc. A whitelist is just a waste time if the expectation is that the whitelisted thing is going to die. Also we have enough whitelists already.

 

The problem with "improving" borgs, is that no one wants to do that. This is not the case as of today, but of months and years until now as well. No one wants to code better mechanics for them, or write better lore, or etc.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Dreamix

[Evandorf]

24 minutes ago, Dreamix said:

A whitelist is just pushing additional work onto the admin/moderation team. Someone has to write up the application forms, go over the applicants, code the whitelist to be functional in game, etc. A whitelist is just a waste time if the expectation is that the whitelisted thing is going to die. Also we have enough whitelists already.

 

The problem with "improving" borgs, is that no one wants to do that. This is not the case as of today, but of months and years until now as well. No one wants to code better mechanics for them, or write better lore, or etc.

Coding a whitelist takes much less time than reworking something. It already exists in git for many other roles so you’re not having to create it from nothing. As far as work for admins/moderation goes it would depend on interest. Either borgs are niche roles for a handful of players and the administration of them will be low or many more people are interested in which case removing them as a role would be negatively impacting a large number of players and driving them away.

[DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun]

On 13/10/2022 at 14:50, Dreamix said:

If borgs were whitelisted, it would change nothing, except to drastically reduce the number of borgs in game... and then they'd be removed anyways after a few months, when their playerbase would shrink to near-zero (just like we have very few AIs lately, with most rounds that I play having no AI at all)

 

This is a good point, but isn't that a good outcome...? Stationbounds are already expensive (so it makes sense they are limited) and with less of them, less people can have their workload lightened. Everyone wins with a whitelist. Your problem is with there being borgs to take your work, but whitelist literally makes there less borgs without totally removing them and upsetting 50% of the playerbase. It's a win on both sides.

Another thing would be lore implications, as well as SCCIA actions. If you are borged, it's basically a canon death if borgs are removed and as we've seen with the mutiny, borging isn't something that the SCC will shy from. The people that are already borged will lose their several year lasting characters.

Edited October 14, 2022 by DekserBecauseILostMyAccoun