Sputnik5927 - On the topic of the Horizon's militarization and event direction

[Desven]

32 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

"Almost no one wants to read the articles" has probably been the best post I've ever seen written on here. I am not an article head. I don't think anyone who has to buy their own bread and pay their other bills often finds it an engaging use of time to be doing anything other than sitting down, relaxing, and logging on to interact with the community here. Reading articles is a very solitary task that often leads to reading the same information already written down relative to whatever faction is being spoken about 50 times over in the past. I've just today read several articles across the various newsposts just to see if anything has fundamentally changed, and the answer is, well, no, not really. The ultimate shortcoming that is a result of these arcs is they completely disable other areas of the lore team from being able to fundamentally do anything besides write articles and rework aspects of their jurisdiction they don't strongly agree with being part of the lore relative to what their predecessors might've written. That fucking sucks! No one can say this is good! 

"Well, it logistically isn't feasible to be running even two arcs simultaneously" is a very good counterpoint and all, but the current status quo is that it takes 2 months tops to conclude a singular event arc. That's a lot of time! It makes me wonder exactly how long it takes to get assets and writing down for what the next event arc. It's a lot of time being spent doing one thing at a time, and all the members of the other parts of the team can do is wait for their turn and plan out whether their corner of the lore is going to be relevant or not. And it's really difficult for us on the outside to really foresee in any resemblance whether that's going to happen since we obviously don't get to see internal planning documentation or longform staff discussions. God knows I've been on the inside before and a single conversation about something small can take hours.

I don't know, could we get a timeline of when the last Vaurca and Unathi lore arcs were? I'm hoping the last significant event from the Sintasphere wasn't the Aut'akh reveal because I genuinely cannot remember what actually occurred within the 2021 timeframe since I wasn't here for most of it.

Here is the timeline for the last Vaurca arc. Station events had to be cut short because they're not always easy to plan, and having so many events center on the Aurora was really stretching it. Seriously, running an arc is an incredibly complex task, and while you can't always please everybody, having it be an engaging situation is hard.

We are planning a Vaurca arc but don't want to rush it. Me, personally, I've never been a fan of events and arcs that only end in death, but I understand why they're the most feasible. Even planning a small non-canon event for Vaurcae is requiring a lot of work from our small team—remember that this is a hobby and none of us are getting paid for it. We have jobs too, and as you mention how you can't always bother to read an article, we can't really devote ourselves full-time to lore either.

I think people should lower their expectations as to what can be done in BYOND. There's just so many tricks one can pull to keep the audience engaged. SS13 is not an open-world game where you can just generate an infinite map, with many places and NPCs that have lengthy dialogue, and call it a densely populated planet. In fact, I doubt we'll ever actually have shore leave in a major city because it's mechanically impossible to make it work.

Still, while I don't share everybody's opinions on this current event and arc, I think feedback is important and I'll consider everybody's points for any future events that are under my supervision.

[Scheveningen]

Personally, my sentiment is that everyone should get a turn, and there be variety so that there isn't immediate exhaustion seeing the same factions reappear in subsequent arcs again. I'm not asking for fast events to be churned out, but more importantly to see greater variety in lore developer arcs in rotations. If not explicitly because I am a little tired of interacting with Solarian warlordism for the uncounted next instance over.

[Fluffy]

I for one like the idea of ship to ship battles, as it seems that (when the other ship is sufficiently armed) it involves next to every department, engineer fixes breaches, ops load the guns and order things and mine, security fend off the boarders or even go board, medical patches everyone up, bridge navigate and operate the firing of the weapons, it feels like everyone have things to do

 

What I'd like to see is more things to be added for the less-engaged departments, as an example: science can make better longbow shots, that requires miners to mine resources for those

 

The simulation event was the most fun I recall because we were being actively and heavily engaged by the enemy ship, maybe something similar on which to throw in a revolution started by some undercover agent of a faction could give even more engagement to everyone? Make science recover an artifact that then the antags attack us and try to get before we discover what it is, with a boarding and an enemy ship team? I don't know, but all in all I believe that the RP goes hand in hand with the mechanical action, we already spend most of the "normal" rounds and almost every round with at least an hour of preparation + sitting there doing nothing but chat, that having it in an event too feels like a slap in the face; mind you I don't mean every event the ship has to blow up (especially if they are weekly), but for what I have experienced and my own personal taste the ship to ship + boarding is the most engaging type of antag, followed by revolution, maybe we could extend the events so they cover more time to accomodate more IC events in it? Or run more events? I don't know, but I'm really looking forward for high-adrenaline events, and I'm thankful for the lore team and staff that makes them possible, as well as mappers and devs

 

I think the population spiked since we added the ship weapons? I'm not sure, but it feels like so, so I guess a good amount of people likes this kind of gameplay too if that's the case?

[Happy_Fox]

I agree with the concerns about the militarisation of the ship and how many times we've already fought Solarian mercenaries/warlords etc - with the Elyrans almost seeming to have second billing despite being in "their" region with regards to who we're encountering. And now in the Badlands we are continuing to fight them. I understand that we have some passionate Sol players who want to see the various Solarian Warlords represented but I honestly would rather we have an arc involving anyone else at this juncture.

Further to that we have not actually been directly engaging, in these events, over a search for phoron. We had an event where we got to tour a site which had already been found, developed and dealt with (at least until we now have to go back there for more Solarian Warlord involvement). It has not felt at all like we were searching for phoron, but rather trying to defend what we already have - whether that is Solarians robbing the vessel or having to fly back to Orchard Moon.

[SinfulBehaviors]

Alright, here's the issue I'm personally seeing: the events are largely the same. We get into a conflict, either via boarders or another ship, command deals with them with some insubstantial interaction with the rest of the crew, then we shove off towards a different sector that is essentially the same as the last, just with a different space background. Devs in this thread keep talking about the potential that the Horizon brings, but if it has that much potential, why are the events this limited?

Even if it was a little caustic, @Bejewledpot made a great point, similar to what @niennab said. If we're a vessel that is running all over space in order to find Phoron, why the fuck AREN'T we doing events where we're actually exploring? Why are we limited to having Solarian or Elyran ships show up to throw a temper tantrum? We had a period of around TWO MONTHS where we were near planets where things were happening, but we never got to see it. 

As a asteroid locked space station, it makes sense for us to hear about events without actively dealing with them. As an actively flying vessel, it makes it feel limited and lame. Like, we've had moments where we've been told that we're in a sector where we can canonically take R&R in certain areas. We're currently inbound for Moghes, and I genuinely feel like we're not going to have anything that capitalizes on it, and if we get anything it's probably gonna be another boarding.

This community is amazingly passionate and I guarantee you they can make a wealth of maps, sprites, and content for updates. We could do events where we drop on a planet and have to fend off raiders and pirates looking to steal our phoron, We could slum it at an Unathi or Tajara bar. We could find extensive ruins on some mostly forgotten planet in the backwaters of the Light's Edge. We have a starmap more than a hundred lightyears across, the possibilities are endless.

The arguments of "but it takes a lot of work"' are really sort of ridiculous. Yes, it takes a lot of work, but I guarantee you people would be way happier and way more interested in actually doing events if you put the work in. Hell, it'd probably make people more interested in working on the game and helping you make more content if you actually entertained the idea of doing events other than the same old "command deals with foreign boarders" trick over and over.

I also want to address the actions of some of the Devs and Admins in this thread. A few of you are acting like children. Don't be pissy because people don't like your ideas for events. Going "uhm well ur wrong" to people because they're unhappy is a shitty fucking attitude that does nothing but make you look like a dick and push people who were already on the fence further into not playing. We're all grown adults here, so let's start fucking acting like it.

Edited December 5, 2022 by SinfulBehaviors
added final paragraph

[FlamingLily]

To preface my feedback, I want to be explicitly clear: This is not a complaint about the event (It has not happened yet), so if the response I am given is "Wait until the post-event feedback thread",  I'm just going to repeat myself. The issue I  have is with the narrative background leading up to the event.

 

Sputnik's original post is excellently written, so I'm going to shamelessly steal the format for my own.

 

FROM AN IC PERSPECTIVE

The Horizon being dragged into this battle makes absolutely zero sense. I'm going to boil my reasoning down into neat dot points, and also pre-emptively address potential feedback I am given from them.

1. The Horizon is absolutely not the closest ship to Valley Hale, nor does its speed justify dragging it all the way from the Badlands. If you expect me to believe the Horizon could get there in time, let alone before TCFL or PMC ships from the CRZ (Who are right there, mind you), and be the only ship capable of doing so, then you expect too much from me.

2. The Horizon is unequipped and untrained for a military engagement ("You don't know what's going to happen in the event", no, I don't, and neither does the SCC, as I have been told, so that excuse does not work, because everyone SHOULD be expecting explicit military engagement.)  (Side note I fucking hate discord's new font)
3. "All resources are needed to combat this threat." Why? The only threat is the Phoron Warhead, seeing as the SFA are a decaying fleet thanks to Nralakk, and there is absolutely no way Biesel's combined forces from the TCFL, All the PMCs, NT's fleet, and any other corporate warships can get there to defend it (Including the Icarus, which is explicitly stationed there).
3.5. "The Horizon has experimental Phoron Sensors, and this can be useful in finding the warhead." Yes, fine. I'll concede that point, because it is actually logical and does make sense. However, on its own, I do not believe it's justification enough to bring the Horizon in.

4. The Phoron Scarcity doesn't work as a justification to bring the Horizon in, for two reasons: First, it doesn't even seem, unless I've missed something, that the scarcity has reached a level of desperation that most people would be willing to fight over it. Warlords who have no infrastructure, sure. Moghes or Ahdomai, with varying degrees of Megacorporate independence, sure. But not the bulk of megacorp owned humanity, in any case. And two: The Horizon is also a source of Phoron. This, in my opinion, is particularly egregious. I do not believe any Megacorporation would be insane enough to, upon learning that One of their sources of Phoron, would go "Hmm yes. We can't risk losing our source of Phoron. Let's send in the Other source of Phoron, to ensure that if we lose one, we lose both." You don't get to be a megacorporation CEO in control of an entire government by throwing all your eggs in one basket and taking unnecessary risk for minimal reward (Again: Untrained crew, Unequipped ship, Probably can't even get there in time)

5. Corporate Relations. Admittedly, this one is less of a "Doesn't make sense" and more of a "Natural result of an illogical decision", but as there's no rumblings of it existing yet, I am listing it. The Horizon is an SCC Profit Creator. Orchard Moon is a NT profit maker. Yes, Phoron is essential to basically all the other Megacorps in the SCC, but when considering point four, above, it wouldn't make sense for the other SCC members to at the very least be upset about this (illogical) decision to bring the Horizon in to defend.

6. As if a diplomatic incident with Elyra wasn't enough, the Horizon (A Civilian vessel (No, "Corporate" does not mean it can't be "Civilian". It is a civilian vessel), not a Military vessel), has a crew consisting of Multiple Consular staff, Representatives, Diplomats, High SCS Skrell, Dominian Nobility, and no doubt rich passengers. Voluntarily throwing all of these people under the line of fire Does Not Make Sense

FROM AN OOC PERSPECTIVE

(And yes, this section does touch on "You haven't seen the event yet so you can't criticise its contents", but the issue is that the narrative basis is CLEARLY implying a combat event, and to go back on that now would come off dishonest)

1. It's invalidating. I have a grand total of two characters who wouldn't immediately go "No fuck this" and immediately leave the Horizon after getting those orders. One of whom is a literal slave (owned IPC), and the other isn't much better, being an Eridani suit. There is no IC way to rationalise everyone else's decision not to quit, forcing me to either ignore a facet of their character, retcon them, or ignore the very existence of this event (Bonus points for guessing what I plan to do)

2. It's repetitive. Oh boy. We're going back to Valley Hale, back To fighting the SFA, Back back back. There's nothing new here, it's all old material and I'm sorry to say but it really kills my interest. We've already left Valley Hale, the SFA were already defeated by Nralakk, why are we doing it again

3. It's boring. Every round is combat of some kind, this is SS13, that's how the game works, so why must every event ALSO be combat. Where are the exploration events, the rescue events, the diplomatic events, it's just combat. The Horizon is an exploration ship, and you can say "It's never meant to be a research vessel" but it is, don't lie, it's a science and exploration ship. When your science wing takes up a good 20% of the workspace, and you have a dedicated science exploration shuttle, you're a science ship. Every other department supports the operation of the ship, except science. It's the only one that doesn't directly support the ship, it's the top of the food chain, it's the goal of the ship.

4. It's draining. When every event is "HEY GUYS DO YOU LIKE WAR I LIKE WAR HAVE SOME WAR," it makes you tired. Videogames are escapism, and the real world is "HEY GUYS DO YOU LIKE WAR..." If you want to have realistic characters that persistently remember events, you'd have no choice but to have them pretty much cripplingly traumatised to a point where the mental stress on you, in real life, is damaging. Or, you just ignore the events. (If your events are best ignored and treated as non-canon, then there is an issue).

5. It's isolated. The entire Dreary Futures arc has felt like this thing that only happens to the Aurora Station SS13 Game Server, not to the SCCV Horizon in the Orion Spur. I wasn't around for KOTW, so take my comparison with a HEFTY grain of salt, but from what I've seen from others, the people loved KOTW because it felt like a Spur-Wide news event FIRST, and a NSS Aurora event only where it was impacted. Similarly, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the Peacekeeper mandate, Mandate Continues, Oppression of Mictlan arc, whatever you want to call it, and yes, while there was no In-game effect, it definitely made the setting feel alive, made my gameplay more interesting by people talking about it. "No one reads the news articles" Is a grand and solid way to ensure that no one does, because you've stopped making them. The background universal lore is just as important as the front and centre event lore, and it's saddening to see that idea being lost. I didn't even know the Leviathan was meant to be experimental since yesterday, because I wasn't there for the events due to time zones. That's how isolated these events have been.

ADMITTEDLY, I only just now have realised I somehow did miss an article of background info regarding the upcoming event. Of course, this was one article, and that's all the background that there is.

6. It's unwanted. This one is pretty clear, from the replies in this thread. There's vastly more people who don't want this event, from what I can see, anyway (maybe I am wrong and overestimating things, but this seems to be the biggest outcry of distaste I've seen from any event announcement, even the ones that bring out the "remove cyborgs" crowd [Let's not get into that discussion here, though.]), anywhere from lowly players such as myself up to actual members of the staff team. This is more than just an appeal to popularity, because events are reliant on player turnout, and while I'm sure these events will still get fine turnout, if people don't want to participate, it will make the event worse overall

 

I honestly think a far better way to approach this event is just... Have the Horizon be attacked in the badlands by someone. That would entirely fix the IC issues, and while sure, a lot of  these OOC ones would remain, it would be a marked improvement. Another solution is to have an event not focused on combat, but who knows.

Edited December 5, 2022 by FlamingLily
missed an article

[Sneakyranger]

28 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

Alright, here's the issue I'm personally seeing: the events are largely the same. We get into a conflict, either via boarders or another ship, command deals with them with some insubstantial interaction with the rest of the crew, then we shove off towards a different sector that is essentially the same as the last, just with a different space background. Devs in this thread keep talking about the potential that the Horizon brings, but if it has that much potential, why are the events this limited?

There have been spots throughout both Dreary Futures in which command have had the only noteworthy interaction, but not only am I unwilling to call them the majority, there were several instances in which the responsibility for this fell squarely on the command players and not the lore team whatsoever. The only complaint in this section with any substance is that events have been largely the same - my response: there have been a great deal of boarding missions; there was also the trip to the Orchard Moon and the SFA phoron hoarding output where the FSF commander was killed.  Ship to ship combat is new to the server and therefore I find any complaints about it being stayed when it has only existed for ~2 months and change (and been the intended focus of only three events and the actual focus of only two) to be an odd stance.

 

34 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

Even if it was a little caustic, @Bejewledpot made a great point, similar to what @niennab said. If we're a vessel that is running all over space in order to find Phoron, why the fuck AREN'T we doing events where we're actually exploring? Why are we limited to having Solarian or Elyran ships show up to throw a temper tantrum? We had a period of around TWO MONTHS where we were near planets where things were happening, but we never got to see it. 

I've seen events where the crew explores. They generally involve a 1:20 Intrepid departure with 1/10th of the crew while everyone else does nothing. It is impossible to have both maximum feasible crew involvement and exploration.   Do you have some alternate solution to the current exploration status quo? No alternative I can imagine is feasible while being interesting.

 

37 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

s a asteroid locked space station, it makes sense for us to hear about events without actively dealing with them. As an actively flying vessel, it makes it feel limited and lame. Like, we've had moments where we've been told that we're in a sector where we can canonically take R&R in certain areas. We're currently inbound for Moghes, and I genuinely feel like we're not going to have anything that capitalizes on it, and if we get anything it's probably gonna be another boarding.

I don't recall us being  inbound for Moghes so much as in the neighborhood. That said, I have seen Triogenix preparing to organize high quality relay activities for out of game RP, which makes sense if Moghes is not our final destination in the Badlands.

 

38 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

This community is amazingly passionate and I guarantee you they can make a wealth of maps, sprites, and content for updates. We could do events where we drop on a planet and have to fend off raiders and pirates looking to steal our phoron, We could slum it at an Unathi or Tajara bar. We could find extensive ruins on some mostly forgotten planet in the backwaters of the Light's Edge. We have a starmap more than a hundred lightyears across, the possibilities are endless.

And yet, as DanseMacabre has said, the majority of content has been made by the same group of people. I believe, without referencing it, that six was the number.

39 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

I also want to address the actions of some of the Devs and Admins in this thread. A few of you are acting like children. Don't be pissy because people don't like your ideas for events. Going "uhm well ur wrong" to people because they're unhappy is a shitty fucking attitude that does nothing but make you look like a dick and push people who were already on the fence further into not playing. We're all grown adults here, so let's start fucking acting like it.

This is the paragraph that made me decide to actually create a second post in this thread simply because it is so absolutely horrendous. I cannot believe that you actually felt that this was so worth including that you added it in post. I do not know you at all nor can I guess what you are like beyond the screen, but I can only hope that your strong love of the server combined with a bad day made you think that this was appropriate to post. Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Kintsugi]

52 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

This community is amazingly passionate and I guarantee you they can make a wealth of maps, sprites, and content for updates. We could do events where we drop on a planet and have to fend off raiders and pirates looking to steal our phoron, We could slum it at an Unathi or Tajara bar. We could find extensive ruins on some mostly forgotten planet in the backwaters of the Light's Edge. We have a starmap more than a hundred lightyears across, the possibilities are endless.

The arguments of "but it takes a lot of work"' are really sort of ridiculous. Yes, it takes a lot of work, but I guarantee you people would be way happier and way more interested in actually doing events if you put the work in. Hell, it'd probably make people more interested in working on the game and helping you make more content if you actually entertained the idea of doing events other than the same old "command deals with foreign boarders" trick over and over.

I also want to address the actions of some of the Devs and Admins in this thread. A few of you are acting like children. Don't be pissy because people don't like your ideas for events. Going "uhm well ur wrong" to people because they're unhappy is a shitty fucking attitude that does nothing but make you look like a dick and push people who were already on the fence further into not playing. We're all grown adults here, so let's start fucking acting like it.

Sneaky more or less hit the nail on the head here with his post, but I wanted to ask you something: Have you contributed any map assets or similar development contributions to the server, if you're so certain that the community is a wellspring of such and that it being "a lot of work" is not a problem? Especially if you're denigrating the work of the dev and admin teams.

[SinfulBehaviors]

1 hour ago, DanseMacabre said:

Sneaky more or less hit the nail on the head here with his post, but I wanted to ask you something: Have you contributed any map assets or similar development contributions to the server, if you're so certain that the community is a wellspring of such and that it being "a lot of work" is not a problem? Especially if you're denigrating the work of the dev and admin teams.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/14334

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/14167

[Alberyk]

The repo is public and anyone can contribute. If you want to add content for any area in the space, go ahead. A lot of ships were added by players. We even started to tell people where we are moving next so there is time to prepare content for it.

[SinfulBehaviors]

12 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

The repo is public and anyone can contribute. If you want to add content for any area in the space, go ahead. A lot of ships were added by players. We even started to tell people where we are moving next so there is time to prepare content for it.

Bold to say that when it might not even get used. For all intents and purposes, why should I go and make a map for an area after this thread? You guys have made it clear that you're priding your own writing over anyone else's ideas, so why should I even make the attempt if I'm just going to be told it's not in the plans?

[Kintsugi]

4 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

-snip-

Not to denigrate your work, but these are character customization features - not anything that would be an asset to the lore/development team in the course of developing an arc. Which gets me back to my point: mapping can be incredibly difficult and frustrating, and the making of quality maps for arcs is very time-intensive. A lot of the mapping assets used for arcs HAS been pre-existing playerbase-made assets. So it's unfair to criticize the development team when they've already extensively made use of playerbase assets and saying they aren't being productive enough in of themselves because they think "it's too hard" when you haven't made contributions in a similar vein yourself. And it's just inaccurate to say if they called upon the community they'd never have a problem producing the maps necessary - because after eight months, only a handful of people have taken the opportunity upon themselves to try and help out.

 

Is there anything wrong with not making those contributions? No, not at all. But there is when you are criticizing people in the manner you are, without having done so yourself.

2 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

Bold to say that when it might not even get used. For all intents and purposes, why should I go and make a map for an area after this thread? You guys have made it clear that you're priding your own writing over anyone else's ideas, so why should I even make the attempt if I'm just going to be told it's not in the plans?

Do you want the playerbase to contribute or do you want the dev team to work on everything themselves?

[SinfulBehaviors]

2 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

But there is when you are criticizing people in the manner you are, without having done so yourself.

I've literally done mapping. I gave it up when I realized how many hoops I'd have to jump through to even get an away site in the game. Playing politics with dev teams not open to outside ideas isn't fun, shockingly enough,

3 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

Do you want the playerbase to contribute or do you want the dev team to work on everything themselves?

Well if you had actually read the post, you'd notice that I was saying that people won't want to contribute if the dev team continues to refuse any suggestions and feedback. 

[Kintsugi]

1 minute ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

I've literally done mapping. I gave it up when I realized how many hoops I'd have to jump through to even get an away site in the game. Playing politics with dev teams not open to outside ideas isn't fun, shockingly enough,

Having personally added eight third party ships (with a ninth on the way) and five away sites, I have not had this experience and I don't think it is accurate seemingly to most people, as I have spoken to other people who have added ships and sites of their own.

5 minutes ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

Well if you had actually read the post, you'd notice that I was saying that people won't want to contribute if the dev team continues to refuse any suggestions and feedback. 

I simply don't think this is true. The dev team does not refuse suggestions and feedback - like I said above, I speak from personal experience in saying that they've been open to my feedback and contributions and the feedback of others. While your experience may differ, your experience is not at all universal, or seemingly even commonplace.

[FlamingLily]

Hey, this isn't conducive to the discussion. If you want to talk mapping and development, don't do it in the discussion of event direction

[SinfulBehaviors]

This conversation isn't going anywhere regardless. Clearly questioning why a civilian phoron exploration ship needs have a city killer on it and why we're even tasked with fighting a naval battle is a step too far.

Edited December 5, 2022 by SinfulBehaviors

[Caelphon]

I am going to try my best to attend to this feedback, and it shares similar points with others. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

FROM AN IC PERSPECTIVE

The Horizon being dragged into this battle makes absolutely zero sense. I'm going to boil my reasoning down into neat dot points, and also pre-emptively address potential feedback I am given from them.

1. The Horizon is absolutely not the closest ship to Valley Hale, nor does its speed justify dragging it all the way from the Badlands. If you expect me to believe the Horizon could get there in time, let alone before TCFL or PMC ships from the CRZ (Who are right there, mind you), and be the only ship capable of doing so, then you expect too much from me.

1. It may not be the closest ship, but it is one of the closest. It is outfitted with a hybrid of both a Bluespace and Warp Drive, and arguably is capable of reaching speeds that the SFA Strike Force is unable to do -- considering they are relying on Warp, only. This means at the maximum speed, they will take twice as long to reach there than the Horizon, who is hot on their tail following the discovery of their abandoned hideout within the Badlands.

You are right, the TCFL, Icarus and the PMC ships will get there before the Horizon, but the Horizon is the only one that can tell where they're coming from or even how many of them are coming with its advanced sensors. Thats why its critical to be there. It has technology that can detect things from lightyears away, as opposed to other classes of spacecraft. 

I hope that makes more sense? 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

2. The Horizon is unequipped and untrained for a military engagement ("You don't know what's going to happen in the event", no, I don't, and neither does the SCC, as I have been told, so that excuse does not work, because everyone SHOULD be expecting explicit military engagement.)  (Side note I fucking hate discord's new font)

2. The Horizon is neither under-equipped or untrained. Staff (Bridge Crew, Command and Operations) were required to get training on naval gunneries. Additionally, there was a VR Event that allowed people to partake and learn how to adapt to a combat situation without the fear of having their character lost. This has always been important to me, and I think its been evident in all the events that I've hosted. I try and limit the death of characters, even to the detriment of the arc. 

This can be found in announcements on the General Discord. 

Again, this links back to why the SCC so desparately needs the SCCV Horizon. The Horizon is the only ship that they can use to determine the fighting force they're up against -- and with the speed it can reach (which is faster than Solarian SFA Naval ships that do not have the Hammerdrive and are relying on a much older warp drive) the Orchard Moon perhaps hours before the Strike Force so that Conglomerate knows what they're up against. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

3. "All resources are needed to combat this threat." Why? The only threat is the Phoron Warhead, seeing as the SFA are a decaying fleet thanks to Nralakk, and there is absolutely no way Biesel's combined forces from the TCFL, All the PMCs, NT's fleet, and any other corporate warships can get there to defend it (Including the Icarus, which is explicitly stationed there).
3.5. "The Horizon has experimental Phoron Sensors, and this can be useful in finding the warhead." Yes, fine. I'll concede that point, because it is actually logical and does make sense. However, on its own, I do not believe it's justification enough to bring the Horizon in.

It isn't the entirety of the TCFL, nor the PMC, or NT. There may be TCFL responding, but the Republic of Biesel additionally requires them throughout the CRZ -- especially on the borders with the Warlords to ensure that they do not step over their newly annexed lands. This means perhaps 1/4 of the TCFL within the region are actually responding, not all of them will be able to reach the Orchard Moon due to being far away, or assigned to ensuring that additional splinter cells don't enter the area (patrolling). The TCFL has already engaged with the SFA in the region, which can be tracked back to this newspaper article. 

The Icarus is a powerful spacecraft, yes. But, remember during KOTW it still needed a full contingent of TCFL to fight back against a full-kitted Solarian Rogue Fleet. The Conglomerate is unaware of how many they can expect to see at the Orchard Moon, further reinforcing why they need the Horizon and its advanced sensors. No this doesn't mean a full-kitted Solarian Battlegroup is enroute to the NSS Orchard Moon. This was merely an anecdote to the event many have referred to during this thread.

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

4. The Phoron Scarcity doesn't work as a justification to bring the Horizon in, for two reasons: First, it doesn't even seem, unless I've missed something, that the scarcity has reached a level of desperation that most people would be willing to fight over it. Warlords who have no infrastructure, sure. Moghes or Ahdomai, with varying degrees of Megacorporate independence, sure. But not the bulk of megacorp owned humanity, in any case. And two: The Horizon is also a source of Phoron. This, in my opinion, is particularly egregious. I do not believe any Megacorporation would be insane enough to, upon learning that One of their sources of Phoron, would go "Hmm yes. We can't risk losing our source of Phoron. Let's send in the Other source of Phoron, to ensure that if we lose one, we lose both." You don't get to be a megacorporation CEO in control of an entire government by throwing all your eggs in one basket and taking unnecessary risk for minimal reward (Again: Untrained crew, Unequipped ship, Probably can't even get there in time)

4. Unfortunately, I believe you've missed a lot then.

This article is important. It outlines that the Gates are shut down for extended periods because Biesel is unable to operate them due to a lack of Phoron. Without the Bluespace Gates, the Orion Spur is cut off from one another. Trade dies, and civilizations collapse as they cannot fulfill the needs of their people.

An additional article about Orion Express beginning construction on Reade for harvesting hydrogen to refuel warp drives -- making themselves independent of the Solarian Alliance's Helium & Hydrogen processing facilities. It has not been complete, but will be soon.

Another article where President Dorn confirms they have to restrain the Vaurca from phoron, as they simply do not have enough to keep them alive -- asking them to focus on growing more K'ois to sustain themselves because the Republic of Biesel cannot. 

These articles specifically relate to the Republic of Biesel. 

These articles (along with dozens of others; Tajara, Unathi, Skrell, Human [Elyra Riots], and Vaurca) were all planted to try and emphasize that the Phoron Scarcity is at its lowest low, and its getting to rock botton if something big doesn't happen soon. It is then that Dreary Futures I kicks off, finding the Orchard Moon. Yes, I would love to have made a map where the Horizon could've broken ground, but unfortunately we didn't have the assets to be able to do so (we were restricted to only one individual, before volunteers who sacrifice their time were able to come onto the team and devote more efforts). 

Yes, I agree that if you were not following carefully, it may have breezed over some peoples heads, and they might underestimate the issue at hand. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

5. Corporate Relations. Admittedly, this one is less of a "Doesn't make sense" and more of a "Natural result of an illogical decision", but as there's no rumblings of it existing yet, I am listing it. The Horizon is an SCC Profit Creator. Orchard Moon is a NT profit maker. Yes, Phoron is essential to basically all the other Megacorps in the SCC, but when considering point four, above, it wouldn't make sense for the other SCC members to at the very least be upset about this (illogical) decision to bring the Horizon in to defend.

5. This is going to be pursued, not as a result of this arc particularly, but overall showing additional rumblings in the Stellar Corporate Conglomerate. It requires that we have an actual plan, and arc (whether it be news or events), to actually allow it to develop. We very rarely release "one-offs" that concern the Republic of Biesel and the Megacorporations, because it hinders narratives. This takes time, and I ask that people be patient. It isn't easy crafting storylines that take months to unravel. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

6. As if a diplomatic incident with Elyra wasn't enough, the Horizon (A Civilian vessel (No, "Corporate" does not mean it can't be "Civilian". It is a civilian vessel), not a Military vessel), has a crew consisting of Multiple Consular staff, Representatives, Diplomats, High SCS Skrell, Dominian Nobility, and no doubt rich passengers. Voluntarily throwing all of these people under the line of fire Does Not Make Sense

6. The SCCV Horizon stands for the Stellar Corporate Conglomerate Vessel Horizon. Prior to the installment of its armaments, I might have concured with you that it was a civilian vessel - so to speak. But, it no longer fills that position. It is a Cruiser-Class (Venator design) that has the primary mission of securing and locating Phoron -- with an experiment weapon capable of decimating those that wish to fuck with the Megacorps (the Leviathon). Phoron is the most important thing to the Horizon, and the Conglomerate. 

The SCCV Horizon is a prototype Cruiser-Class vessel designed to uncover Phoron - capable of doing such at distances never previously thought possible. Created by the Stellar Corporate Conglomerate, primarily by Hephaestus Industries and Zavodskoi Interstellar, the Horizon has been given several objectives that it ought to complete during its commission. While detecting Phoron is considered the primary objective, there also exists secondary and even tertiary objectives in which the crew of the SCCV Horizon must attempt to accomplish - examples of which are investigating potential colony sites for the expansion of the Stellar Corporate Conglomerate and the Republic of Biesel, as well as analysing deep space anomalies to uncover the mysteries of the Orion Spur, and hopefully unearthing additional information on why Phoron exists and why it has such a profound impact within the regions of which it is discovered.

This is taken from the SCCV Horizon page, which has been up since prior to the release of the NBT. Phoron is its primary objective, but it will be given secondary and even tertiary objectives -- which means its at the whim of the Conglomerate. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

FROM AN OOC PERSPECTIVE

(And yes, this section does touch on "You haven't seen the event yet so you can't criticise its contents", but the issue is that the narrative basis is CLEARLY implying a combat event, and to go back on that now would come off dishonest)

1. It's invalidating. I have a grand total of two characters who wouldn't immediately go "No fuck this" and immediately leave the Horizon after getting those orders. One of whom is a literal slave (owned IPC), and the other isn't much better, being an Eridani suit. There is no IC way to rationalise everyone else's decision not to quit, forcing me to either ignore a facet of their character, retcon them, or ignore the very existence of this event (Bonus points for guessing what I plan to do)

1. I do not expect characters to necessarily like the idea, but they do have to accept that it is within the confines of their job description. 

Again, it makes reference to the fact the the Horizon is controlled according to the Conglomerate. Your characters reconciled themselves that they may place themselves in dangerous circumstances. For those referencing Star Trek, the NCC Enterprise frequently engages in conflicts in its aim to facilitate diplomatic and science charters. However, unlike in Star Trek, we do not adhere to uniform requirements nor do we expect our players to have a vast knowledge of military understandings -- such as when to salute, or how to address a person in lower or higher rank -- unlike Star Trek. 

You are perfectly entitled within ICly for your characters to fear and worry about their future. But, it is the responsibility of the player to ensure they act within the realm of belief. You cannot expect no consequences if they decide to disobey a lawful order, which results in the Horizon unable to protect itself. You can act within the realm of your characters beliefs, but please remember there will be consequences for those actions. Refusing to obey an order may end up hurting or even killing other characters.

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

2. It's repetitive. Oh boy. We're going back to Valley Hale, back To fighting the SFA, Back back back. There's nothing new here, it's all old material and I'm sorry to say but it really kills my interest. We've already left Valley Hale, the SFA were already defeated by Nralakk, why are we doing it again

2. It is unfortunate, but we need to return for a narrative sequence of events. After this event, the SFA won't be heard of for some time, and we move onto species-centric arcs for the next six to eight months or so. 

A few months ago there were many complaints that the Nralakk Federation wiped out the Warlord without ever exploring it. Which is why this arc has been pursued, to give a "redemption" or sorts to the SFA. Dreary Futures I and II aims to right the wrongs of the past with the SFA, and how many were disappointed in our particular choice of dealing with a Warlord. Unfortunately some may think it is stale and old, but others are glad that the SFA are finally being dealt with in a much better method to the wiping out of Beauchamp by the Federation. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

3. It's boring. Every round is combat of some kind, this is SS13, that's how the game works, so why must every event ALSO be combat. Where are the exploration events, the rescue events, the diplomatic events, it's just combat. The Horizon is an exploration ship, and you can say "It's never meant to be a research vessel" but it is, don't lie, it's a science and exploration ship. When your science wing takes up a good 20% of the workspace, and you have a dedicated science exploration shuttle, you're a science ship. Every other department supports the operation of the ship, except science. It's the only one that doesn't directly support the ship, it's the top of the food chain, it's the goal of the ship.

3. We have tried to pursue these events, but many people critiqued it and said it was boring. We still still pursue these types of events, but the greater critique is that people argue these types of events focus only on particular departments. 

Dreary Futures I had several of these events:

• The first event was hurt individuals coming aboard the SCCV Horizon to get medical care, and negotiate for a protection contract with Lt. Becker an Cpt. Kruger.
• We had an Elyran Ambassador aboard the SCCV Horizon. (People referred to this as HOI4 Intrigue RP) 
• You got to explore the NSS Orchard Moon in all its glory.  (People complained it was boring)

However, the next series of arcs do not have a focus on anything remotely similar to Dreary Futures. Again, its been only 7 months (5 of which have been about the "Launch Arc"). It has been long, but the work needed for these projects are enormous, and I just ask that people have some patience and empathy that we sometimes need a break from the constant work -- or we need time to give people what they want in terms of assets and narratives.  

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

4. It's draining. When every event is "HEY GUYS DO YOU LIKE WAR I LIKE WAR HAVE SOME WAR," it makes you tired. Videogames are escapism, and the real world is "HEY GUYS DO YOU LIKE WAR..." If you want to have realistic characters that persistently remember events, you'd have no choice but to have them pretty much cripplingly traumatised to a point where the mental stress on you, in real life, is damaging. Or, you just ignore the events. (If your events are best ignored and treated as non-canon, then there is an issue).

4. Again, I make reference to the many Star Trek anecdotes people have mentioned. The Voyager, Deep Space 9 and the Enterprise all go through conflicts when they're on their missions of "diplomacy, science and discovery". 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

5. It's isolated. The entire Dreary Futures arc has felt like this thing that only happens to the Aurora Station SS13 Game Server, not to the SCCV Horizon in the Orion Spur. I wasn't around for KOTW, so take my comparison with a HEFTY grain of salt, but from what I've seen from others, the people loved KOTW because it felt like a Spur-Wide news event FIRST, and a NSS Aurora event only where it was impacted. Similarly, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the Peacekeeper mandate, Mandate Continues, Oppression of Mictlan arc, whatever you want to call it, and yes, while there was no In-game effect, it definitely made the setting feel alive, made my gameplay more interesting by people talking about it. "No one reads the news articles" Is a grand and solid way to ensure that no one does, because you've stopped making them. The background universal lore is just as important as the front and centre event lore, and it's saddening to see that idea being lost. I didn't even know the Leviathan was meant to be experimental since yesterday, because I wasn't there for the events due to time zones. That's how isolated these events have been.

ADMITTEDLY, I only just now have realised I somehow did miss an article of background info regarding the upcoming event. Of course, this was one article, and that's all the background that there is.

5. That has always been the aim to make impact the greater Spur, those other arcs you've mentioned is what I've tried my hardest to emphasize Dreary Futures I & II. 

I had received criticisms that the newspaper articles were getting too much and out of hand for many to keep up with, which is why they've slowed. I am disappointed that some felt this way, but I understood sometimes it can get overwhelming trying to keep up with things, which is why we put a focus on events this arc as opposed to newspaper articles -- which many people have confirmed they don't bother reading, so I am confused as to what I need to do. There doesn't seem to be a clear answer here for me to follow, with me disappointing some of you, and making others happy.        

Again, all I ask is for people to be patient with us. We're human. We've only been doing this for seven months, its a really short time to figure out how to make everything work and keep it interesting. We volunteers have to juggle this and our real live situations -- I mean, I know I'm not the only one on the team that has university, a job and then I still have to come back and pour my remaining energy here to make sure everyone else can escape from their lives. Its a thankless job, and I'm proud of my team and how much we've been able to do together. I'm glad that some people here can speak up and say thanks, even in the face of the negativity. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

6. It's unwanted. This one is pretty clear, from the replies in this thread. There's vastly more people who don't want this event, from what I can see, anyway (maybe I am wrong and overestimating things, but this seems to be the biggest outcry of distaste I've seen from any event announcement, even the ones that bring out the "remove cyborgs" crowd [Let's not get into that discussion here, though.]), anywhere from lowly players such as myself up to actual members of the staff team. This is more than just an appeal to popularity, because events are reliant on player turnout, and while I'm sure these events will still get fine turnout, if people don't want to participate, it will make the event worse overall

6. Not one person on this thread has accurately predicted the final event, nor anywhere else on discord. There is an assumption that certain things will happen, and it is not correct. The event has exploration, decision-making, and sure it may possibly have ship-to-ship conflict depending on the crew's choices, but not at such a grandscale that people seem to think. I am a bit disappointed that people are hating on an event that has not yet occurred, nevermind that people do not even know what it entails. I just ask that you give it a shot, and then give us feedback. 

2 hours ago, FlamingLily said:

I honestly think a far better way to approach this event is just... Have the Horizon be attacked in the badlands by someone. That would entirely fix the IC issues, and while sure, a lot of  these OOC ones would remain, it would be a marked improvement. Another solution is to have an event not focused on combat, but who knows.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't make narrative sense and it wouldn't tie up the arc. It is easy just make up another event, but it won't have any relevance on the circumstances or the narrative. It actually harms and dilutes the purpose of the arc.

I hope that this clears up some of the issues, and I tried my best to approach it from a gentler perspective and explain it to the best of my abilities. 

[Scheveningen]

I love how you can completely have a discussion like this derailed by simply diluting the crux of the argument as if it were TYRANNICAL "VOCAL MINORITY" THAT EXISTS OUTSIDE THE "REAL" COMMUNITY (them) versus Noblebright Pillars of the Community That Actually Play (us). There is some really unfortunate proof of what people were trying to deliberately avoid openly saying for months that there exists an uncomfortable thought process within staff that the only people who are of any value are the content creators, rather than trying to push back against this shitty mentality.

Think I'm full of shit? Search up how many times any variant of these buzz phrases come up: "vocal minority", "you don't even play", "your expectations are self-produced", "Do you even map, bro?", any variant of "well that's your opinion" whilst also comically holding an opinion that things are actually fine rather than not-fine -- what does this rhetoric actually function to serve besides being a weak distraction to reverse onto specific individuals that dare to speak their mind around here? You can't get away with anything besides passive-aggressive language around here anymore, so I'm really curious to hear what the naysayers of "oh everything's fine trust me bro" really think about the current situation as well as their critics.

Aside from the rare person on page 1 of any thread that always comedically misses the point, a majority of the people that have any genuine criticism about the state of things are attempting to get through to you guys in the most respectful way possible that they are not overly fond of the way things are going presently -- not that they expect this final event to be cancelled -- but I think if there is some serious discontent leading up to what may be happening this coming week or the week after, that the state of things on the player enjoyment side is not the best it has ever been. The last time there was this much discontent was during The Warbling, but at least there was a semblance of an idea that the arc didn't go well from the staff side and there was a fairly concerted effort by whomever would inherit the reins next to sweep the issues under the rug and fix/address all the other problems that the conclusion of that arc created.

Mildly relevant tangent: it should be a bannable offense from this point on to imply someone's opinion doesn't matter because they either "don't play" or "don't play enough." The merit and content of someone's opinion should be judged by the merit and content of what they state alone, not by attacking the speaker for not logging on every single day when the majority of people that have stuck around for years and years have to do things that adults must do like show up for work so they can pay for their own lifestyle. And if you don't like the idea of, say, not being able to pull this kind of exclusionary rhetoric on at least someone in the community, take that rhetoric and shove it. Make it normal to respect each other again.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Scheveningen

[Scheveningen]

that being said cael is doing a magnificent job actually explaining some of the issues with, y'know, actual facts, and being respectful about it, so bravo there.

[FlamingLily]

1 hour ago, Caelphon said:

1. It may not be the closest ship, but it is one of the closest. It is outfitted with a hybrid of both a Bluespace and Warp Drive, and arguably is capable of reaching speeds that the SFA Strike Force is unable to do -- considering they are relying on Warp, only. This means at the maximum speed, they will take twice as long to reach there than the Horizon, who is hot on their tail following the discovery of their abandoned hideout within the Badlands.

You are right, the TCFL, Icarus and the PMC ships will get there before the Horizon, but the Horizon is the only one that can tell where they're coming from or even how many of them are coming with its advanced sensors. Thats why its critical to be there. It has technology that can detect things from lightyears away, as opposed to other classes of spacecraft. 

I hope that makes more sense? 

The fact that the SFA had a hidden hideout in the Badlands gives the decision immensely more grounds than I had thought, And while I'm not going to go fully into retracting my criticisms so far, this certainly does help.

That being said, I do believe the fact that I haven't heard of this until now is a bit of an issue in and of itself. I feel that there could have been more feedback for those who don't make it to the events

1 hour ago, Caelphon said:

2. The Horizon is neither under-equipped or untrained. Staff (Bridge Crew, Command and Operations) were required to get training on naval gunneries. Additionally, there was a VR Event that allowed people to partake and learn how to adapt to a combat situation without the fear of having their character lost. This has always been important to me, and I think its been evident in all the events that I've hosted. I try and limit the death of characters, even to the detriment of the arc. 

When considering the level of engagement one would expect from a fight between military ships, I would argue the Horizon is still under-trained (maybe not untrained) and under-equipped. They've been trained for defensive engagements, not offensive ones, under the assumption that that's what's happening

1 hour ago, Caelphon said:

It isn't the entirety of the TCFL, nor ... etc

I feel that if it's urgent enough to bring in the Horizon, there'd probably be far more TCFL/PMC/NT/Whoever presence than just who's available. It just seems like a better first extreme, in any case.

 

1 hour ago, Caelphon said:

This article is...

An additional article about...

Another article where...

I understand the intent of these articles, but all three of them read "The beginning of the end" to me, not the lowest low of the scarcity. The bluespace gates being shut down doesn't come off as that big of a deal, especially with no followup on economic impact or anything that it causes, and Orion doing its own thing just seems like a smart forethought.

The Vaurca article, and the next two or three following it about Vaurca/Biesel relations is closer to what I would expect may necessitate the Horizon's drafting, but with those articles only coming from the Vaurca-sphere of the situation, it really has seemed isolated and not reflective of the situation across the spur. Simply put, I think more articles about the effects of the crisis would have helped build to this. And, jumping ahead slightly,

1 hour ago, Caelphon said:

I had received criticisms that the newspaper articles were getting too much and out of hand for many to keep up with,

I think they should just Get Good.

I'm being facetious, obviously, but focusing on events when it comes to storytelling and not always-accessible mediums like the news articles, basically results in "If you don't live in an American time zone, you do not get to partake in the lore." 

What I will say is this: I think the idea of  "This is article #1 of the Whatever Arc" is a good addition and would help people wrap their head around the news stories, like has happened for the Oracle. Obviously most articles for other 'News Outlets' are less arc-heavy, so maybe labelling based on topic could work, I'm not sure. Either way, Articles were good and accessible.

2 hours ago, Caelphon said:

5. This is going to be pursued,

That's all I wanted to hear, I just wanted to be sure.

 

2 hours ago, Caelphon said:

Phoron is the most important thing to the Horizon, and the Conglomerate. 

Which is why I still don't think they'd reasonably be willing to risk their second source of Phoron as well, but whatever.

 

Ultimately, I've come half way around on this event narrative to a sort of indifferent neutrality. My major frustration, I think, is how little development there has seemed to be around it through out of game channels, such as Articles. Maybe i'm the odd one out and everyone does truly hate the news articles, but I doubt it. I'm not going to go over my OOC concerns again, because at the end of the day, I'm probably not going to be able to show up for the event, anyway. I just sincerely hope that more developments will occur visible to those that don't make it, as opposed to having so much stuff solely in events.

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

that being said cael is doing a magnificent job actually explaining some of the issues with, y'know, actual facts, and being respectful about it, so bravo there.

Couldn't have said it better myself, honestly. And I want to take this segue to express that I am truly grateful of all the effort that's being put into these events, into the lore, into the server and its development. Obviously, I don't agree with every decision, but ultimately you all do in fact do wonderful work, and I want to thank you for making this community one of the best SS13 communities that exist

[WickedCybs]

6 hours ago, SinfulBehaviors said:

I've literally done mapping. I gave it up when I realized how many hoops I'd have to jump through to even get an away site in the game. Playing politics with dev teams not open to outside ideas isn't fun, shockingly enough,

The vast majority of our away sites were added by the community with little dev input? I wasn't even on the development team when I added most of mine as well. How can you say this when you haven't even talked to any of us or even brought up potentially needing help with a map or something on the maincords coder channel? Others have and surprisingly, one did get their map in after a bit of help from me and Gem. That's just a recent example out of many.

It's very strange reading this thread and seeing what people imagine when it comes to the lore and development teams. The server is the result of collaboration, not competition. We would do well to remember that.

Edited December 5, 2022 by WickedCybs

[MasterAssistant]

A lot of issues have been covered on this thread with takes that I generally find agreeable, and while I have comments about the nature of how this next event may play out, I agree it'd be too disruptive to the server to cancel it right now. With that out of the way, I would like to address something I see as a recurring issue with Aurora lore & events in general: the lack of worldbuilding. I'm aware this may sound odd, but allow me to explain.

Lore articles and the wiki pages. They're great sources of information for making a character and all, don't get me wrong - but they have one obvious issue, which is that they're not in the game. As such, the most an already-established char can do with this information is at most comment on it, which just makes them a more-or-less passive observer. Lore articles are great for pushing a narrative forward, don't get me wrong, but they're not great making chars feel its impact. Take as example the articles Cael listed out:



I'm fairly certain that most characters which were present in that period and are still present to this day are barely affected by these news, which is extremely underwhelming. I mean, shit, Bluespace Gates at the threat of being shut down? Vaurca being possibly forced to starve to death because Phoron needs to be siphoned off for other uses? That should have a massive impact in terms of what's going on ICly, and yet things felt rather blunted. Why, I ask? Simple:

Again, these things are not happening in the game. Getting players involved in on the crisis would make it significantly more impactful. Imagine an event where a refugee caravan passed by the Horizon, a colony begged for emergency Phoron supplies to keep the bare minimum they have left intact, a busy juncture of merchant ships awaiting the re-opening of the Gates and a hell of a lot more ideas. Given the wonderful technical implementations of events so far, and also considering that what's presented here has, at least in part, a good amount of assets already coded in (Orion/Civilian station, civilian freighter etc.) it would probably also be faster to schedule and implement these "mini-event arcs" as I'd like to call them.

Touching on event arcs, I would like to point out another issues on the macro-scale of things, which is that I feel there has been prior (and as such there is a risk in the future) imbalance when it comes to the way events and articles are plotted out. The original ass-beating of the SFA, while huge, didn't really have player involvement and resulted in some feeling disappointed with how it was concluded. This then spurred on (or was at least part of spurring on) this arc, which people now feel has the Horizon too involved and in on the front-line of things.

I'm not psionic, so I cannot read how the lore writers are feeling at this point, but in my opinion it's fairly reasonable there are frustrations on their side as well. Reading what an entire player-base wants is more than difficult, and as someone who has been in a similar position for a server of ill-repute before, I sympathize with staff here. However, from what I've personally gathered here, I don't feel that people hate the idea of ship-to-ship combat itself, or the fact that high-adrenaline events exist, but rather the balancing between them. There hasn't been a whole lot of the mini-event/in-game worldbuilding stuff which I described above, and where it has come up, it's been mostly via player action (notably using off-ships, which are another great avenue for this - I'll expand on this later if needed). I have read that there's plans for smaller, species-focused event arcs in the next 6-8 months, which, y'know, great! But I don't think that addresses the core issue - people do want to interact with the big, overarching narrative of Aurora, but they do not always want to do it right where the action is happening. Sometimes bigger isn't better, hell, sometimes smaller is better.

Overall, I think the smaller, more uninvolved aspects of lore should be brought up and portrayed in-game more often, without necessarily needing the big grandiose implementation of past arcs. Many spaceship-based video games exist that I could draw a parallel to for the Horizon - to draw upon the good old classic, Faster Than Light: that game has an insanely large amount of background/non-combat events, things you'd reasonably interact with on the day-to-day travels of a ship on a mission, like merchants, construction sites, caravans, stations, etc., and all of them reflected the wider state the Galaxy was in, with an impending climactic battle between the evil anti-xeno Rebel forces vs. the good guy Federation. The Horizon isn't this, but the lessons that we can learn from this are still relevant: for every big, important battle arc that the Horizon has to face, there's a dozen other mundane or regular events which nonetheless are essential to the game's flow. Hell, the player's ship in that game was a military cruiser-class vessel and they still had a ton of interactions with the civilian side of the world.

That's my two cents on this whole affair. I'm aware I may have gotten a bit off-track with everything, but at the rate this thread is going I honestly think that's fine - I just wish to express what I see as a systematic problem whose roots weren't sufficiently pointed out. Again, no ill-will to the lore team, the staff, or anyone else on this thread - I am commenting here because I think it's critical to the future of the server, and because, admittedly, I've often sat back and commented from the sidelines, which isn't fair to anyone. Have a good one.

[Faye <3]

i don't really think that the Horizon having the Leviathan (a gun that dumpsters small pirate vessels and light cruisers ala the ghost-role SFA ships, but would be mostly ineffective against an actual fighting ship) and being sent as auxiliary support to defend against people who want a nuke is going to be the slipping on a banana peel and falling down a slip-n-slide into tacticool milsim RP. aurora is pretty far from mil-sim, and i think that people being upset over character restrictions are going to have to give a little. it doesn't make a super lot of sense for some podunk engineer from jupiter or w/er to go "oh we're going to valley wherever-the-fuck to stop pirates from making a bomb? cool!" and not be understandably upset, but i don't believe that will be the norm going forwards and a big component of collaborative roleplay is suspending our disbelief. we do it all the time. how many shells and other expensive IPCs do we see in-game who were freed through unusual / uncommon ways act with independence and security and somehow have full-sized apartments on a robot's pay? a shitload! how does this compare to the rest of the IPCs in the Spur? way off! part of writing and collaborating as a community is suspending your disbelief for the sake of the people you're writing with, and hoping they'll do the same for whatever quirkiness you're writing with your deviantart ass OCs. (me included!) additionally, the aurora literally had gigafuck hellchungus commando frogs and a scooby doo monster in the maintenance tunnels, as well as having been boarded fifty thousand million times by a rogue's gallery to put batman to shame, and people still played saccharine-sweet-rot-your-teeth security cadets and uwu medical physicians, so i personally think it's only as big of a problem as you make it for yourself. i think the bad faith arguing here is super unwarranted and just like, high-school tier rude. frankly, some of y'all seemed happier not playing Aurora.

personally, i was kind of bored by the current arc. it felt obtuse and opaque looking outwards-in, and i never really knew what the hell was going on. i also kind of found it hard to care. i think in the future, we should be more conservative with our gun-battles. save'em for key moments so it's a real "oh shit" moment when the guns are loaded. i think what's really exacerbating the milsim concerns is that for this event arc, we never really got to talk with anyone who weren't jarheads or bureaucrats supporting those jarheads. in the future, I think having some more friendly faces would be nice, or being able to talk to people without worry they'll fuck the crew over or stab us in the back. i don't think this is a condemnation of anyone or any team in particular - the NBT is still relatively new, and i'm sure that future arcs will be a bit more lowkey. 

 

sidenote: please, please, please for the love of god use the command sub-section to post command briefings for us command mains who miss an event. it felt like i never knew what the fuck was going on this arc and it was a pain to try and incorporate in my character when i missed a round. 

[MattAtlas]

2 hours ago, MasterAssistant said:

Again, these things are not happening in the game. Getting players involved in on the crisis would make it significantly more impactful. Imagine an event where a refugee caravan passed by the Horizon, a colony begged for emergency Phoron supplies to keep the bare minimum they have left intact, a busy juncture of merchant ships awaiting the re-opening of the Gates and a hell of a lot more ideas. Given the wonderful technical implementations of events so far, and also considering that what's presented here has, at least in part, a good amount of assets already coded in (Orion/Civilian station, civilian freighter etc.) it would probably also be faster to schedule and implement these "mini-event arcs" as I'd like to call them.

The issue is that things that happen in game are also missed. Them happening in game only guarantees that the 30-50 or so players would pay attention, but those that don't care (or can't attend) would still miss them. It's possible for us to blast that XYZ happened on the forums and on the wiki... but then that makes it into an article again -- info on a wiki/forum page that you have to read.

In short, there is no reasonable way to guarantee that people will read prerequisite info. It won't be read by some no matter what you do. I guess that guaranteeing that those 30-50 players pay attention is a good step in the right direction still, but I think an article gets the same level of engagement anyway.

[ErshOurHerzog]

2 hours ago, MasterAssistant said:

"mini-event arcs"

Nah, there is no need. It wouldn't work, because it is, again, too much time. Admins can't schedule events everyday. So, we just need to code the game to have these off-ship roles suffer. Make them suffer if the scarcity is so bad. Give them only one canister of fuel, make their phoron tanks almost empty, take away their eqipment so these off-ship roles have a sense of scarcity.

For example -- make some tajara smuggler ship always low on fuel so they need to contact the Horizon as soon as possible to trade with them. 

Make the SFA ship struggle with weapons and ammo. Give them only one gun and little food for an entire crew of, like, 5 people? 

The majority of the off-ship roles don't even really need to go out in the space because they have everything on the spot: food, water, equipment, EVERYTHING. So yeah, to solve the dissonance we're having with the current situation in the Spur we must make all the off-ship roles suffer! Why do every one of these smuggling ships have a cafeteria and a small kitchen? They should eat shit! 

This is called 'Ludonarrative Dissonance'. It is a conflict between the narrative told through the story and the narrative told through the gameplay. You say one thing in the Lore/Cutscenes, and then you see the entirely different thing in the game. Like, some soldier in COD is saying 'WE'RE LOW ON AMMO" and then you proceed shooting everyone with thousands of magazines for a carbine. That's what we have with offship roles, from MY experience.

Edited December 5, 2022 by ErshOurHerzog
added one smart paragraph