Loadout: sign reader gloves

[Sniblet]

I was torn between proposing this as a custom item for myself and just putting it here, then realized the only reason I was thinking about it as a custom item was because that forum was less crowded.

A Gloves and Handwear item that interprets anything the wearer does in sign language and repeats it in spoken Basic. Ideally, this would be done in a way that causes runechat above the wearer. It'd also be nice to have an on-off switch like other worn electronics.

It can just use the electronic gloves sprite.

I'd be interested to see this item and functional substitutes for it addressed in the job accessibility page.

 

Item name: sign reader gloves

Item description: A pair of gloves covered in small motion sensors and gyroscopes, capable of reading a wearer's gestures in TCSL and repeating them out loud. Surprisingly breathable.

 

Shoutouts to Lillian Nyström and Jill N1luz

Edited January 22, 2023 by Sniblet
description edit

[Flpfs]

Sign language isn't 1:1 with English, despite a large part of the playerbase misrepresenting it as english but in hands.

I also think this is too snowflakey and encourages cringy types of characters that we've seen before many times. 

No offense to whoever suggested this, it's just my opinion.

[Carver]

This is a bit strange, I'd find it more logical to have goggles that others can wear that would interpret the gestures - but that would defeat the point as few would take said goggles. These gloves seem like they'd be very annoying as you'd unintentionally set them off doing various tasks.

Overall I like the idea of more translation-based loadout wear, but I feel that gloves are the wrong approach.

[Sniblet]

Well uh

• This is Ceti Basic, not English. Basic and TCSL are both designed languages and could have been made to correspond better than English to ASL, and if not, that's a player issue that exists regardless of whether these gloves exist.
• I don't know what cringey characters we're talking about. Cringe is a player issue that exists regardless of whether these gloves exist.
• There are simple ways to design around accidental activations, like a "start reading" gesture and an on/off switch.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sniblet
cringe is

[UponASeaOfStars]

Suggesting that mute characters are "cringe" is in itself kinda cringe. I know of two (and I play one of them!), and neither is treated as an epic meme.

I support this 100%, and I'm happy to brush off my programming socks and code it myself if need be.

As for why gloves: why not? It makes the most sense that way; they're easy to activate or deactivate (your fingers are right there, after all), fairly unimportant with regards to mechanics (aside from insulated gloves, but that's a tradeoff engineers would have to make), and it's an idea that's been floated already by several people IC.

Edited January 23, 2023 by UponASeaOfStars

[Lmwevil]

It's already a coded thing on /tg/station, just take their translation gloves

[DeadLantern]

15 hours ago, Flpfs said:

Sign language isn't 1:1 with English, despite a large part of the playerbase misrepresenting it as english but in hands.

I also think this is too snowflakey and encourages cringy types of characters that we've seen before many times. 

No offense to whoever suggested this, it's just my opinion.

Yes, ASL does not correspond one to one with English, but we still have science translators in the game that somehow translates any language perfectly (or at least maintains a comprehensible word order) from whatever language to TCB. And while your facial/overall expressiveness is similarly important, you can still portray that while the hands translate the gist of the message.

 

No matter your preconception on how players play disabled characters, that is irrelevant to whether it's in the game or not as an option. I see little reason to not port this from TG. Mute/biologically deaf/HoH people exist, and they wouldn't simply cease to exist in the 25th century.

 

 

[Don]

It makes sense to have something for mute characters to communicate (it's the future after all). Doesn't have to be gloves really, could be as simple as a tts pda program. But they do sound kind of cool.

[Girdio]

It seems like a straight forward thing to add, as I'm not really quite sure of any possible downsides. It facilitates more roleplay opportunities, while not being mechanically dangerous if the wrong players are using it. It also isn't something any character in particular has to use if they don't want to.

Calling player concepts cringe is hostile, despite saying "no offense", and it's not really constructive to add. The simple answer is to simply not interact with a character if you find the concept to be something you don't enjoy, instead of limiting options that they have.

[Zelmana]

 

 

 

How would the sign gloves impact role restrictions based off of communication needs?

[Sheeplets]

I like Don's suggestion to just add a TTS program. We already have speech-to-text on messengers, it would fit nicely alongside that.

[Flpfs]

8 hours ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

Suggesting that mute characters are "cringe" is in itself kinda cringe. I know of two (and I play one of them!), and neither is treated as an epic meme.

Please reread my post and point out where I said that. I said that waifus are cringe.

3 hours ago, Girdio said:

Calling player concepts cringe is hostile, despite saying "no offense", and it's not really constructive to add. The simple answer is to simply not interact with a character if you find the concept to be something you don't enjoy, instead of limiting options that they have.

You two are new players so you haven't seen the extremely cringe concept of waifu mute characters from old. We can just have a TTS feature which is already more than enough. I don't think that adding a million things to make characters super special and essentially fully bypassing their disability so that people can play a million more jobs by funnily circumventing the accessibility rules is a good thing. It encourages bad character concepts.

 

4 hours ago, DeadLantern said:

Yes, ASL does not correspond one to one with English, but we still have science translators in the game that somehow translates any language perfectly (or at least maintains a comprehensible word order) from whatever language to TCB. And while your facial/overall expressiveness is similarly important, you can still portray that while the hands translate the gist of the message.

You're right about the translators and I agree, personally I think that it's cringe that we can auto translate every language and it feels unrealistic, but there is that precedent.

 

 

[Girdio]

41 minutes ago, Flpfs said:

You two are new players so you haven't seen the extremely cringe concept of waifu mute characters from old. We can just have a TTS feature which is already more than enough. I don't think that adding a million things to make characters super special and essentially fully bypassing their disability so that people can play a million more jobs by funnily circumventing the accessibility rules is a good thing. It encourages bad character concepts.

Well, no I'm not a new player "exactly" given that my original account (https://forums.aurorastation.org/profile/24-voltagehero/) was here during the start of Aurora and I have been pretty decently involved lol. Obviously, it has been a while and I don't say that to pull out the "I've actually seen a lot card!" but it seems like you're trying to give your opinion more weight due to seniority. I have seen multiple mute and deaf characters over the years on the server, and there has been some that I don't really find enjoyable to interact with. That said, even in the characters I didn't like they generally were not causing harm to my own RP and were things I could ignore. This follows through here as well.

Even if I were a new player, telling someone their input on this situation isn't worthwhile, due to them being a newer player, isn't really constructive. You didn't explain why this is a bad idea or why it actively harms RP or would cause problems for the server besides simply "I don't like mute/deaf/etc characters." I feel giving the reasoning of "this shouldn't exist because it can create bad characters" isn't unique to mute/deaf characters. A poorly done character can be created no matter if they are able-bodied, are racked with health concerns or otherwise, and this is usually dealt with on the individual basis, not through cutting it off at the head. I don't really see how adding gloves or similar mechanics would expand this problem.

To avoid the thread turning into a possible argument though, I'm not going to reply anymore since I don't think I have anything useful to add that hasn't been mentioned.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Girdio

[Sniblet]

6 hours ago, Zelmana said:

How would the sign gloves impact role restrictions based off of communication needs?

Mute-with-sign-readers doesn't fit snugly as a speech impediment or a heavy speech impediment, but I think it could fit somewhere between. It's not on the linear scale of "how good can you talk" because the TTS is perfectly clear and understandable, but isn't always effective. Here's where it fails:

1. Severe electronic/electromagnetic interference disables your speech.
2. Talking into a radio is possible, but very inconvenient.
3. Talking while your hands are occupied is not possible.
4. Talking while wearing other gloves is not possible.
5. While fluent signers can rattle something off pretty fast - faster than typing - it's not as fast as real speech.

Here's a review of every job not currently open to mutes and how/if they're disadvantaged significantly by being assisted-mute. Command positions are not being considered.

• Bridge crew: 2, 3, 5
• Security officer: DQ'd by 1, 2, 3, 5
• Warden:  1, 2, 3, 5
• Investigator: Works _{- assuming they're playing as investigator, and not a better-trained officer - someone doing arrests and handling crises hits 1, 2, 3, and 5}
• Scientist: Works
• Xenoarchaeologist: 1
• Xenobiologist: Works
• Xenobotanist: Works
• Physician: 3, 5
• Surgeon: 3, 4, 5
• Pharmacist: Works
• FR: 1, 2, 3, 5
• Psychologist: Works _{- while they may suffer due to lack of tonality, this doesn't make them nonfunctional, and there's always using your face}
• Engineer: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
• Atmos tech: 3, 5
• Reporter: Works
• Shaft Miner: Works _{- given that shortwave radios pick up voice from your pocket even in vacuum, 2 can be dismissed here}
• Machinist: Works

I could argue that 1 isn't a valid concern considering that, for many people who are allowed into any position onboard, severe electromagnetic interference disables their life.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Sniblet
bridge crew

[Carver]

8 hours ago, Don said:

It makes sense to have something for mute characters to communicate (it's the future after all). Doesn't have to be gloves really, could be as simple as a tts pda program. But they do sound kind of cool.

I like this idea most in regard to handling mutes. It furthers the PDA as a useful tool for them, doesn't take loadout points (and much more importantly, means every single one [in the crew] is going to have access to a communication tool) and is extremely believable compared to having gloves for the task.

[Sniblet]

Typing is less convenient than signing for someone fluent

[niennab]

I think the gloves would make a great addition and I'd love to see them added. Just the aesthetic alone is cool enough to add further character to the station's crew. 

Generally I think the odd misplaced hatred of mute characters stems from difficulty in being able to freely communicate with them, as well as a cliche ss13 opinion. 

[goolie]

We have a TTS option on the PDA that I use for characters that can’t speak TCB that well. It would honestly be better to just include sign language as one of the translatable languages on it. Gloves would be cool if they weren’t JUST gloves and had some custom flavour to them. The PDA option is easier to implement though and wouldn’t take up a loadout slot. Why not both? 

[EJJ]

Throwing my two cents in. What would be the feasibility of expanding electronic wear to be able to select a pre-built module to spawn with?

Characters could spawn with a TTS module in a headset or gloves? I figure starting with a TTS module would be the least worrisome and maintainers could discuss things like translators, etc. If having those spawn pre-baked into a loadout was even feasible.

 

[KingOfThePing]

Nah man. This sounds just like a way to circumvent the job accessibility stuff or whatever the name is. You are actively subscribing to playing a disabled character and to the problems and hurdles that come with it. If you dont want to deal with that then just don't play a disabled character. Just being able to negate it is honestly boring - just as universal translators are and shouldnt be a thing as well.

[Triogenix]

I have to echo what ping said. On the surface this looks like a fine idea, not really a big deal. However to me it seems like a way to play a character with a massive disability like muteness, while also not having that disability affect them in any real way because they can just use gloves. It's defiantly an interesting concept from a worldbuilding perspective, having the technology of the 25th century, but when it comes to characters I feel that disabilities should be impactful, such as muteness and not being able to communicate effectively.

 

But in the end, if this gets coded and merged I don't think it will be horrible, and probably not widely used.

[UponASeaOfStars]

That's like saying playing a character that wears glasses is 'ignoring' the disability of poor eyesight... which many don't consider to be a 'true' disability specifically because society has advanced to a point where it's a lot easier to overcome than it used to be. Being an amputee is a disability in 2023, but in 2465 you can get a prosthetic limb that functions as well as, if not better than, a normal limb. Can the same not be said for muteness, something that is impactful today but could very easily be overcome using the technology of the future?

[Dreamix]

I'd expect that the gloves or whatever absolutely would NOT circumvent the job accessibility requirements.

If they did, that'd be really dumb for a lot of reasons. So no mute security officers who wear these gloves, for example. Because uh. "Talking while your hands are occupied is not possible." So any job that requires communicating and doing things at the same time is out.

If they do not circumvent the job accessibility requirements, then I see no harm in having these. They'd just be a neat way to characterize a character, showing how progressive and inclusive "the future" is, beyond how it is today. Not cringe at all, but very cool imo.

[Sniblet]

1 hour ago, Dreamix said:

I'd expect that the gloves or whatever absolutely would NOT circumvent the job accessibility requirements.

If they did, that'd be really dumb for a lot of reasons. So no mute security officers who wear these gloves, for example. Because uh. "Talking while your hands are occupied is not possible." So any job that requires communicating and doing things at the same time is out.

There are a lot of jobs where communicating and doing things at the same time is a strict requirement to working well. Security officer is certainly one of those jobs, as I indicated myself. Why are we ignoring the rest? Is a machinist with sign-to-speech incapable of work? A reporter?

 

3 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

Nah man. This sounds just like a way to circumvent the job accessibility stuff or whatever the name is. You are actively subscribing to playing a disabled character and to the problems and hurdles that come with it. If you dont want to deal with that then just don't play a disabled character. Just being able to negate it is honestly boring - just as universal translators are and shouldnt be a thing as well.

If you suffer from a disability or life-altering injury you CANNOT try to overcome it. There is NO WAY that any realistic character would EVER want to be as close to normal and functional as possible. You must either be FULLY mute or NOT mute. NO middle ground exists, and attempting to depict such a thing would be BORING and BAD.

*me ignores synthetic vocal chords, hearing aids, cochlear implants, prosthetic limbs and organs, prescription glasses, people RPing their way out of being mute because OOC they can literally just decide to stop with basically any IC justification

 

It seems like there was some mute character boom a year or five back which led to a lot of cringey characters being made? That's sad and all but it has nothing to do with adding a new optional loadout item now. If you just don't want people to play mutes, amend the accessibility requirements to ban them from everywhere with no qualifier for assisted speech. It won't be IC realistic, but oh well?

Edited January 25, 2023 by Sniblet
optional (loadout item)

[Carver]

3 hours ago, UponASeaOfStars said:

That's like saying playing a character that wears glasses is 'ignoring' the disability of poor eyesight... which many don't consider to be a 'true' disability specifically because society has advanced to a point where it's a lot easier to overcome than it used to be. Being an amputee is a disability in 2023, but in 2465 you can get a prosthetic limb that functions as well as, if not better than, a normal limb. Can the same not be said for muteness, something that is impactful today but could very easily be overcome using the technology of the future?

Yes.