A discussion regarding persistence

[Skull132]

Okay, so.

A few features which have been planned, such as, the economy, persistent (though fully player controllable) brig records, and even the already-established CCIAA mechanics would benefit from one thing: character name be made more difficult to edit.

First, a little elaboration from a technical standpoint. A character has exactly one marker that we mechanically keep track of: a character ID. Each character has their own, the player never sees or interacts with it. This is what, presently, ties CCIAA reports and actions on the WI to specific characters. Later on, it would tie your character's economic status, brig incidents, and whatever else (apartment status?) back to the character and you. However, it's a number. Never seen in anywhere but the code. What is seen, is the character name that's written in the freeform content of such data. A very basic problematic scenario that can already happen today is: your character gets a CCIAA note against them, you rename and re-purpose the character slot, and that note will still be there. Its contents will refer to the wrong name, but still the same character slot. Multiply this a little as we keep stacking things.

The solution to this is to make the character name require a quick form and Admin/CCIAA approval to change after a grace period of, say, 3 days. Github issue here. (And no, this would not be a measure to make dodging CCIAA or shit like that harder. It would ensure that records don't get messed up, and horrible things don't happen in the backend. In fact, it would encourage proper dodging: the making of a new character. So please, don't assume this.)

Sounds simple? Well. As I was discussing it with the dev team, I came up with a good list of edge cases which would suffer from this. First, know that this does not restrict you from deleting and making a new character all together, in any way, shape or form. An old character can easily be nuked, and a new one made up, no matter how similar.

However, things which this would outright stop:

• Usage of a persistently random name all together (no more, "I'm going to join as a char with the same look/FT, but a different name, every round").
• Regularly name hopping, for, for example, undercover RP or shenanigans like that. (TECHNICALLY hindered, but it's hindered to the point where it's almost inconsiderable, unless you get CCIAA to help you out on a daily basis.)

 

Here's the list of things it would hinder:

• Simple name edits for whatever reason (marriage, retcons, divorce, whatever), past the 3 day grace period -- need to get some form of back-end approval, from admins or CCIAA. A streamlined pipeline can be set up for the process that would take no more than 72 hours -- specifically, fill out a form on the WI, wait a bit, someone presses "APPROVE", and the change goes through.
• Any major retcons of a character would require contact with the CCIAA to also remove attached CCIAA records. Shouldn't be a major issue in most cases, but simply takes time and adds to burden.

 

At first glance, some of these things may seem relatively arbitrary and useless. But, I've personally made use of 3 out of the 4 features noted above. So, give it a thought, a second one, and a third one.

Now, what would we gain?

Simple: development of pseudo-persistent features, the ones outlined in the opening paragraph, would be made easier by ten nautical miles. As it would remove a elephant from the coder's room.

What am I asking from all of you regarding this matter? Opinions and thoughts. Concerns and comments. Questions.

[Muncorn]

I'm in full favour of, well, all of this. I see no reason why it shouldn't be. The only people this effects negatively in a large way are those that random their character every round, which to be honest, isn't something that fits into the atmosphere we try to create here. So, I believe this should be perfectly fine.

[VileFault]

This would be really great, and wouldn't interfere with how I play at all.

 

However, things which this would outright stop:

• Usage of a persistently random name all together (no more, "I'm going to join as a char with the same look/FT, but a different name, every round").

In my opinion, this is a serous plus. Having a consistent group of colleagues is something that I think is really good - knowing and following characters over multiple rounds is the closest thing SS13 has to an endgame, in my opinion. There is one particular employee in the science department who I am thinking of here especially - they have a very consistent behavioral pattern and always look and dress the same, but often switch names. Thus, I can't really recognize them ICly, which is stupid. If people want a new character each round (though I don't really know why they would), I am fine asking them to actually make a new character, rather than just relabeling their old ones.

I also am very eager to see the economy system come to fruition. Getting a simple framework in first would be nice, but I really look forward to making pay docks and raises a real and persistent thing (though pay brackets and standard changes should be documented). Also, and I will probably make this a suggestion, but it would be great to have your living standards affect the custom load-out points out have. We could then make the items there take a certain number of credits to buy ... there are so many possibilities!

Also, what about medical records? Should cloning be cannon, or is death generally left uncannon? Or could it be that you have to flag it as a valid death on the WI? Maybe electives can be automatic cannon? This would also encourage the use of (still probably sparing, because who wants to spend the entire round writing) medical notes, if they stick around, and would make our doctors a little more like actual doctors. Again, maybe the doctors notes are deletable on the WI so the page doesn't get too cluttered and events the player doesn't think fit the character can be voided.

I am pretty sure this "strike it from the record" attitude should be applied to brig records (I think antags shouldn't be bound to their shenanigans), though it definitely shouldn't be a thing with CCIAA reports. Regardless, this all looks pretty cool!

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

In some rare situations character renamings have affected me, and have the potential to affect a great number of people (such as Tajara reclaiming their native naming and abandoning arabic naming schemes) but other than that I don't change character names hardly ever.

I am also rather biased as I am a strong pusher of persistence in how it pertains to benefits for the eventual economy.

The positives outweigh the consequences.

[Zundy]

Would this effect say the players ability to alter their employment records or is this solely a name change thing?

[Nanako]

I believe the cost outweighs the benefits

That is, i believe the benefits are nil. And the costs, while minor, are still annoying and unhelpful for a few edge cases. Chief among them though is retconning. Many have decided to overhaul a character, being unhappy with it, and often its something you want to quietly and with as little notice as possible, because you were unhappy with the former state and want it forgotten

People having CCIA records on them is fairly uncommon afaik, and i believe we should only have special case code to account for that case, rather than a blanket measure which will inconvenience everyone.

As mentioned, we have a character ID which is persistent, and thats all we need for coding just about any character-specific features. I can't see how name permamanance would do anything for developers, because coding based on name - or any kind of user-inputted information - as a primary key, is really bad form.

I vote no.

[Skull132]

Would this effect say the players ability to alter their employment records or is this solely a name change thing?

 

Solely the name.

 

People having CCIA records on them is fairly uncommon afaik, and i believe we should only have special case code to account for that case, rather than a blanket measure which will inconvenience everyone.

 

Other mechanics, such as the economy, will push for characters having a lot of things preset in stone/hard to reset. Such as a character's economic status, for example, or all of their transaction and other records.

 

As mentioned, we have a character ID which is persistent, and thats all we need for coding just about any character-specific features. I can't see how name permamanance would do anything for developers, because coding based on name - or any kind of user-inputted information - as a primary key, is really bad form.

 

But user input will include the name. All freeform data for IRs, CCIAA records, character emails (I actually forgot about my plan to code those in the coming near future), will include the character's name in the data field. If the user is given ability to change it, the end result will be a large bulk of data pointing to a character which may as well have been outright deleted at that point. It'll create a lot of confusion if staff are, for whatever reason, required to look into logs on that matter.

Also, it's not about using names as primary keys, it's about making sure that you don't end up with a whole lot of content referencing a Dave McGee (emails, IRs, brig notices, transaction logs: the freeform, user generated content for them), while the character slot's new identity is a Cheshire McGoo.

[Guest]

Is this going to get the new map out sooner?

[Skull132]

Is this going to get the new map out sooner?

 

Won't affect it, one way or another.

[SierraKomodo]

Concerning the name changes, something has crossed my mind that might pose a bit of a headache. I have a 'character' that's actually just a character slot used for the entire production line of Sydney working-class synthetics (IPCs). These are mass-produced, assembly line, cookie-cutter synths designed to perform specific tasks exclusively for NanoTrasen (Under company contract). Each one has a specific name that denotes which general area/department they're developed for, followed by a randomized roman numeral to indicate which unit in that series the IPC is - I.e. Sydney Mu-XXIV would by the 24th unit in the Medical category.

It's a bit of an overcomplicated thing just for a name perhaps, but it's just a little bit of extra work toward making an immersive synthetic character in my opinion; It is otherwise the same 'character' (Albeit they have no memory between shifts, because technically it's most likely different unit from the same line, and memory databanks are canonically wiped for these units every week).

Would there be a way to incorporate a system for characters such as this? Perhaps 'whitelist' that particular character ID to allow namechanges without going through the loops? I don't know if I'm the only person who does this, or if anyone would ever make a character slot that does this kind of thing in the future, but it'd be something to consider.

[Conservatron]

How many character slots do we have now? 20?

Either way, i don't THINK it would be too difficult to add a flag under character options in setup to 'unlock character name' with an approved whitelist thing, maybe even have naming unlocked for IPCs/ synthetics as default?

either way I love the idea

[Garnascus]

yeah i like how this may encourage more permanent characters. Arent the crew all supposed to at least be acquaintances or something. I wonder how me giving people name changes with VV will affect this though.

[Alberyk]

I am fine with this change, I am person that enjoys character development, and encouraging more frequent characters and persistence is something I believe that would be good for our server as whole.

As a coder, this would indeed help a lot with projects related to presistence, and I want this as well.

[K0NFL1QT]

I don't believe I would be negatively affected by this, except in the unlikely event of future name changes to existing characters. I tend to use 'new character' over reusing a slot, and it wouldn't be hard to incorporate a good delete/new habit for new characters and slots. My only concern is thus; tying up staff time and energy on trivial name changing for people, and the associated records.

Further more, how does this apply retroactively? I may have reused a character slot once or twice, rather than delete/new. There aren't currently any systems in place that call on the hidden character number at the moment that would be referencing replaced characters?

[Skull132]

Further more, how does this apply retroactively? I may have reused a character slot once or twice, rather than delete/new. There aren't currently any systems in place that call on the hidden character number at the moment that would be referencing replaced characters?

 

There are! CCIAA system currently refers to character IDs. Though this only applies if you get a report and such against your char.

Retroactively, we'd just lock the name modifications effective whenever the update for it is pushed. Anything before that is up to CCIAA to sort out if they see it necessary.

[Nikov]

One of the things I like about our current level of persistence is the episodic nature of rounds in the classic television format. If you look at SS13 like Star Trek, you see characters that are very persistent episode to episode, facing problems in a three act structure, and coming out a little older and wiser. However, Spock doesn't die and Kirk doesn't get promoted to admiral. These things are major character developments that can't happen in the twenty-minute format of a television episode, because if you miss an episode, you'll have no idea why Spock is dead and Kirk is working a desk job. If you didn't tune in Friday at 9, you're out of luck next week. So episodes were kept easy to pick up, easy to miss, and easy to catch up on. You can watch many old series entirely out of order without being terribly confused.

And of course, when Spock does die and Kirk makes admiral, its done in the movies. We are accustomed to movies being grand epics with major changes to characters.

This format is changing in modern television because of the rise of the HBO miniseries or the Netflix binge. You can sit down, watch the series in order, and when Mr. Bates is accused of murder you're certain to have seen the episode with Mr. Bates' wife. Show by show the little daily plot runs along, but a grand epic is woven between the episodes. Skipping an episode, however, entirely ruins a miniseries. You have to watch them in order, and as it happens, they're easy to get on DVD or Netflix.

We're looking at play in a 'broadcast television' medium of storytelling. Round by round, small things happen, and characters remain true to big themes. By the end of the round we've concluded our little arcs and we go back to the characters we had before; perhaps with a new friend or a new understanding, but never substantially changed. I've tried losing a hand and coming back the next round without it; people are seriously jarred. The consistent suspension of continuity of their episodic play is disrupted.

We see lots of this. Consider all the players with characters who are missing a limb or an eye or some other thing, and have prosthesis. They die, sometimes canonically. They are cloned with fully formed bodies. Next round, they've lost their limb again and had their prosthesis replaced. There's no reason for it save this; the character wasn't meant to change. It was always meant to revert to the same basic template at round start, follow its pattern consistent to the character, and end either unchanged, or revert to the pattern.

Its important we remember the merits of episodic play as we discuss time compression, persistent records, CCIA reporting, so on. Many players want to go back to their character as they were, or only advance as far as their personal storytelling intends. When a major crisis happens in a bad round, nobody wants their character's reputation destroyed, just as nobody's singing the praises of last round's hero.

Moving to a more persistent format will make casual players, or players with many characters, struggle to keep up with character developments. If I play two characters and you play two characters, and we both play one round at the same time each night, then any given pairing of characters only interact one every four days. This alienates characters as more time is spent catching up than moving forward.

Paradoxically, then, having less persistence between rounds strengthens roleplay in our format. Your character always knows about what my character is like, even when we've not met in days. Occasionally we tell each other big news, but we're never forced into being strangers again after a week or two of separation. The episodic format means friends are friends, enemies are enemies, and the plot can be picked up for as far as it need go.

I hope we will all consider whats good about our current arrangement before making a decision to change the arrangement radically.

[Absynth]

I agree with Nikov, and I don't understand why on a role play server you're even permitted to choose a random character at all. It shouldn't even let you out of chargen unless you've filled out every area properly, including backgrounds and hair.

[TrickingTrapster]

Huh. Well, I guess the random character thing is for when you can't decide what to make your character, and that's good, it gives you inspiration for the character. To be honest, I didn't even realize people were doing this at all. Though in hindsight it makes sense, but a random character every round is... Bad for immersion, as well. Pretty sure NT doesn't do single shift payments and then fire the person. I'm in favor of this.

[SierraKomodo]

Huh. Well, I guess the random character thing is for when you can't decide what to make your character, and that's good, it gives you inspiration for the character. To be honest, I didn't even realize people were doing this at all. Though in hindsight it makes sense, but a random character every round is... Bad for immersion, as well. Pretty sure NT doesn't do single shift payments and then fire the person. I'm in favor of this.

 

I have my own 'random character generator' text document I use for randomizing just about everything for a character (Albeit it comes up with more sensible stuff than pasty-white blue haired vegeta with purple eyes). Sometimes these randomized characters are only played once or twice (Titus Young II as an example), sometimes they become characters I play regularly (D'ar'rhe Mia'asika'zar).

[TrickingTrapster]

They said you can still delete your characters if you're still trying to make one that sticks, just IC name changing will disappear. And that's even somewhat realistic, as IRL namechanges also need to go through all those legal authorities.

[Skull132]

As a note.

Since I'm rewriting SQL saves to work with Baymerge, I'll be incorporating this into the code as well. There'll be a time period of 5 days since saving a character wherein you can edit a character's name without any extra trouble, after that, it'll be locked. You can, as stated before, delete the character normally, make new ones, etcetera. And if you have a good reason to change a name, you can contact staff and they can get it done for you.

I will also be removing the always random button. Maybe replacing it with a randomize appearance button when you're editing an unsaved character.

[SierraKomodo]

As a note.

Since I'm rewriting SQL saves to work with Baymerge, I'll be incorporating this into the code as well. There'll be a time period of 5 days since saving a character wherein you can edit a character's name without any extra trouble, after that, it'll be locked. You can, as stated before, delete the character normally, make new ones, etcetera. And if you have a good reason to change a name, you can contact staff and they can get it done for you.

I will also be removing the always random button. Maybe replacing it with a randomize appearance button when you're editing an unsaved character.

 

Can something be setup where staff can flag a specific character to allow unrestricted name changes? I do still have that IPC slot for the Sydney line of IPCs, where there's thousands of models, each with a different numeric designation, alongside a greek letter indicating assigned department.

[Skull132]

As a note.

Since I'm rewriting SQL saves to work with Baymerge, I'll be incorporating this into the code as well. There'll be a time period of 5 days since saving a character wherein you can edit a character's name without any extra trouble, after that, it'll be locked. You can, as stated before, delete the character normally, make new ones, etcetera. And if you have a good reason to change a name, you can contact staff and they can get it done for you.

I will also be removing the always random button. Maybe replacing it with a randomize appearance button when you're editing an unsaved character.

 

Can something be setup where staff can flag a specific character to allow unrestricted name changes? I do still have that IPC slot for the Sydney line of IPCs, where there's thousands of models, each with a different numeric designation, alongside a greek letter indicating assigned department.

 

Mhm. Easiest method would be to implement it as a new whitelist (mechanically). How the admins want to handle distributing them, we're gonna find out Soon. As in, by the time the update goes live.

[Garnascus]

Adding a flag for an entire race is probably the easiest solution to IPCs. Does anyone have any non-ipc character that needs to regularly change their name? As far as i am aware there isnt a justified lore reason like different IPC models.

[Chada1]

Adding a flag for an entire race is probably the easiest solution to IPCs. Does anyone have any non-ipc character that needs to regularly change their name? As far as i am aware there isnt a justified lore reason like different IPC models.

 

Maybe Diona, but none of the others that I can think of. Diona I Think are supposed to change their name each time they split, but I can understand why that would be a PAIN to actually do, either way.