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[Accepted] Nikov - Engineering Ban


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BYOND Key: Nikov

Total Ban Length: Permanent Engineering Department Ban

Banning staff member's Key: PratePresidenten?

Reason of Ban: Paraphrased; Not receiving permission from a Chief Engineer to make an atmospheric modification involving N2O in the bridge's electrified window space as an anti-tamper agent. "History of atmospherics issues and Poor play".

Reason for Appeal: I do not feel my warning history justifies a department ban.


Warnings received


ADMIN TIME ISSUED REASON

shameonturtles 2016-12-21 21:40:46 Used multiple merc bombs with little justification. Keep in mind: The primary goal of antangonists is to drive a story and generate interaction. .

Warning acknowledged!

 

alberyk 2016-10-04 21:26:01 For refusing to follow a central command announcement, even after having a fax sent as a confirmation of those, as an implanted captain. You must follow central command's order as an implanted captain, it is a part of the role and ignoring those is not something expected from a head of staff.

Warning expired and no longer active!

 

serveris6 2016-08-06 13:03:03 Gassed departures with a sleeping agent as a traitor. Warned not to fuck departures over with atmos again.

Warning expired and no longer active!

 

aimlessanalyst 2016-04-20 19:43:06 Going after an AI that one assumed to be malfunctioning without actually interacting with the AI. The player that was playing said AI was AFK, and no attempt was made to make sure of this before going to the core with a few heads of staff to card them, with zero interaction with said AI, because, again, they were AFK.

Warning expired and no longer active!

 

nursiekitty 2016-04-13 23:39:19 beat himself into a weakened state with admittedly no reason at all.

Warning expired and no longer active!

 

bluespacecat 2015-11-05 20:37:59 Running into a room open to space without a hardsuit because atmos didn't update

Warning expired and no longer active!

 

aqy 2015-10-25 18:27:05 Started a fight during EOR.

Warning expired and no longer active!

 

I have always striven to not make the same mistake twice. I have previously received a very specific warning regarding N2O within the grounds of hitting the departures shuttle with it as an antag. This has not repeated. I have also asked administration many, many times for permission before employing phoron or N2O or the engine in antagonism. As a non-antag, I do not fuck around with these things.


This specific incident, when raised by a trial moderator, I admitted to whole-heartedly as being me in a low note and greytiding too hard. I got the "mutiny" vibe, didn't care much for the CE on an IC level, appealed to the HoS for cover, and didn't expect quite so much pushback for fortifying the bridge in what seemed like a crisis. I had gotten in trouble, saw the Captain giving the CE a demotion form, and thought I'd fuck off to space. Within a minute I'd recognized this was all around rotten play on my part and started trying to PDA the head of personnel to feel out how I could return to normalcy and being within the normal bounds of my character.


I'm really not making an excuse for myself. I need to get in-character when I'm playing, or not play at all. Some rounds I'm too fast and loose. I need some kind of alt for the times when I'm not yet in the heavy RP mindset.


But this ban doesn't do anything to accomplish that, because I'd already internalized these decisions when I reached out to the admins ahead of being bwoinked in order to say, "I've goofed." Well, I still say I've goofed.

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I actually think that N2O was a good idea, comms that round was screaming and people started getting a little tense. I honestly think this should be ruled IC. The only reason why it flooded central hall was because engineers failed at inflatables and it was also a easy fix due to just needing to throw a scrubber in and wait. Besides, without Manfred, the engine fucks up more.

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Hi.


I issued the ban in the name of Prate, after a decision was made by the majority of the online staff at that moment, which included me and a few admins. We rarely take a decision all by ourselves. I will also be handling this appeal, given that Prate is still in his trial period.


Getting more to the point of this, I know you play in Engineering -as a whole- frequently, and you normally don't mess up with stuff. But your ban history, warnings and staff notes say that you've had a past of incidents with atmospherics in general, the last issues related to this happening just a few months ago. I have also witnessed you doing some weird stuff as a chemist, when you decided to try out thermite in one of the emergency cupboards and create a fire. We were never informed you'd be doing this, but you were not contacted in this case as we were keeping an eye on you.


Atmospherics is something easy to grief with, and we don't take the usage of any of the gasses lightly. Although I agree that it's a good idea for riot-control, it's nothing more than a risk we, as a server, take to get griefed quite easily; by only breaking a window. If you intended to make use of this method, your best bet would've been to Ahelp, as you should with most of the stuff pertaining the atmospheric system that could potentially require admin intervention in case it went wrong.


Then there's the part where you decided to completely ignore all the heads' orders, those including the CE's, HoS', and Captain's. It is this part that explains the "Poor play" part of this ban. You were not an antagonist this round, and the station was never under any threat to grant this behaviour you had.


I am willing to change the permaban to a series of less-strict punitive actions which have yet to be discussed. I will bring this case to the rest of the administration team, and a decision will be made on whether to lift the ban completely, partially or if it should remain.


All other players are free to post here with their opinions or whatever you'd like if relevant.

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Hang on there, I believe I was the HoS for that round and my opinion was never asked for from staff.


I don't understand why this warranted an OOC ban. The actions in IC were IC justifiable from his end, aside from not getting permission first to do so. But there's nothing wrong with "that aside", as it was an IC motivated detail to do so.


I was the head of security during (what appears to be) the round in particular in which they slighted the CE in not getting their permission to riot-proof window sections in the brig to deter gassing an entire section of the station and immediately apprehending anyone wanting to bust into the bridge/brig. If this is not that round then it's not the first attempt at this.


I honestly thought to be, quote unquote my character, "utterly genius", as this was something I never thought of before. Their method of injecting said gas into the window section was clean, professional and excellently done. I couldn't have asked for a better execution of the matter, it was well done and risk-free.


To my understanding, however, the CE was not a fan of it because they weren't informed prior of what they were doing. Admittedly when I first saw them setting up the injection loop into the window section, I had my thoughts about it and thought it was over the line until its purpose was explained to me. I then realized, of course, how ingenious it was and my character also made logistical sense of it, given their dozen plus years of experience as security and courses into military strategy. I initially permitted it retroactively, but...


The Chief Engineer, however, was not a fan, not simply because it made sense and they never thought of it, but likely because they were morein offended that their holistic permission wasn't asked for first and that their authority was shirked by someone taking it upon themselves to inflect structural genius on the station. Without authorization from their head of staff, true.


At some point after, I asked Manfred to cease and desist since I didn't want to cause a massive schism within command and cause a lot of back and forth arguing that wasn't necessary, especially considering it wasn't my lane to judge whether Manfred did was right or wrong, as he did commit a minor wrong in the sense of insubordination. He broke protocol and the overriding righteousness of the chain of command, and protocol dictates action, etc.


So he did, actually. The CE wanted him arrested, so I set out to find him on my own as this wasn't necessarily something I wanted handled very sloppily by the security team. My efforts turned up nothing as Manfred dropped off the grid for the rest of the round in constant hiding, and the AI players dropping in and out each served to be less than useful and almost completely unresponsive to any inquiries to Manfred's location.


I ended up giving up as there was nothing I could do on the matter and it was outside my realm of being able to change.


Now that I've explained the sequence of events, allow me to express my professional opinion as a 2-almost-3-year player, security veteran and incredibly anal corporate regulation hugger, based on what I think Manfred was guilty of;


Insubordination and willful breaking of the CoC to perform structural modifications and execute projects on their own, dropping off the grid and evading security investigators to avoid getting caught and a refusal to return communication attempts with a high security official.


Here's what I think Nikov was guilty of OOCly;


Roleplaying.


The ban should be lifted. It is nonsensical and asinine that such OOC bans should be placed based on characters acting their own way, especially considering their actions affected no one and only served to mildly inconvenience other characters in-game (or if what I suspect is true, the CE was an administration staff member who complained enough to warrant a moderator stepping in to handle the matter).


When a staff member checks notes to base their potential judgements and hand out disciplinary action, a couple things are important: context, and reasonability.


1.) Did context dictate Nikov was actively causing atmospheric issues that would constantly throw rounds into a destructive state, thus indicating a pattern of problematic behavior?

2.) What exactly was unreasonable and lacking in roleplay sense in determining the case of Nikov/Manfred Hayden?


Subordinates are not always perfect, they will occasionally forget to report, they will make mistakes, they will not always be able to read the mind and intentions of their leader. In some cases, they may even defy an order from their superior if it is stupid enough, or they pop off the grid if they feel like if they return, an unnecessary amount of discipline will be heavily carried out by an annoyed and impatient authority.


Nikov is a regular, who, if I might dare make the assumption, enjoys their time playing here and would not intentionally jeopardize that in order to cause grief to every other turbonerd that plays here. Me included.


tl;dr, Lift the ban if the current context I'm seeing from the banning moderator shows that he was banned from engineering roles on the basis of roleplay events not transpiring the way a certain head of staff wanted them to. There is a share of the blame when the leader does not initially outline their expectations regarding what they mind and don't mind, because often more than not a subordinate will assume for themselves what the line leader won't mind.


If that CE wants to properly report this, it should be drafted and handed to CCIAA. I am sure they are begging for a chance to do something, given how very few of the community reports anything to the IC administrators, where this should be taken...


It is childish to want to control roleplay when it is unnecessary, especially since this didn't fall under "RP how your character would", "No netspeak", "don't be a chucklefuck" and raise any red flags there, these were all IC related issues to how a character was acting and reacting. Manfred may have been out of line ICly but by no means does that get even close to warranting OOC action being taken against the player. It's ridiculous.

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The chemistry event wasn't on this character. I've never been chemist before or since. I was seeing if you could make a water foam that extinguished adjacent fires. I should have done it on a test server, but I took steps to keep it under control and just make it a little science experiment.


I do ahelp with most of the things I do in atmospherics when its for antagonism; phoron etc. But being an atmos tech, having atmospherics as my toolkit... its like taking spears away from Yinzr. My character's tools and skills incline him to use what he uses. It would be a violation of character, even power-gaming, to go arm up with guns like most characters. I try to do an antag round using my toolbelt and my wits, and I've been told, several times, that an isolated phoron fire is acceptable.


I feel some other mods or admins could step in and attest that I am one to F1 before employing weaponized atmospherics. I feel like that's the core of this problem. As for insubordination, characters are characters, but these are IC issues to resolve. I need to not put myself subordinate to a CE I'll have trouble under, unless I'm ready to scale back.


In short, I can tell I got chucklefucky.

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NOTE: This event was AFTER the ban took place and Manfred Hayden's "Don't be A Dick Rule" flag appears.


I saw you the other round when you as visitor Manfred Hayden asked the engineers for assistance then, the engineers agrees to take your assistance. Then, you would shoo them away because you were on 'administrative leave'. Though the term is not correct to be used. You're not receiving a pay on leave, unless you were bluffing around ICly and you blatantly lied to the engineers. That's not cool. That is never cool. It makes you look like an asshole. Secondly, administrative leave is not existent in business world, the term 'administrative leave' is reserved for non-business such as police, public school teachers, military, government doctors, etc.

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Unknown, I have no understanding of how to continue to play the character. The 'admin leave' is just the only excuse I can think of for why any of this is happening. I am trying to maintain continuity of roleplay. If I did go help fix the engine, I'd be permabanned for skirting my engineering ban. If I don't say anything, I'm not playing the sarcastic, spiteful side of the character. And frankly, I don't see how "don't be a dick" is applicable to in-character actions between characters roleplayed to be antisocial, but a player who tries to talk it out with anyone.

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I've played many characters as an unapologetic piece of shit and the "don't be a dick rule" doesn't apply to characters unless in very extreme circumstances. It's a rule intended to be interpreted for OOC behavior first and foremost. With the added exception of, "except in cases that it might apply for when it makes character behavior unrealistic", or whatever.

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I don't see how "don't be a dick" is applicable to in-character actions between characters roleplayed to be antisocial, but a player who tries to talk it out with anyone.

This. If rule number one applied to our characters, we'd all be banned by now. Oreki Nomura called my IA character a two-dollar whore the first time they spoke, and he's still around! There's some evidence of going too far in the specific incident, but it was called out and seems to have already been analyzed by the OP and others.

 

Nikov is a regular, who, if I might dare make the assumption, enjoys their time playing here and would not intentionally jeopardize that in order to cause grief to every other turbonerd that plays here. Me included.

Also this. The player doesn't go out of their way to ruin anyone's fun the vast majority of the time, and even when they're antagging they're typically playing to bring people in, not take them out. Generally speaking, I trust them to take other people into consideration OOC more consistently than many of us.


I think that the permanent nature of this ban to a character who is 146% engineer is not a punishment that will make most of us better off in the end. I'd also like to see the phrase "Warning expired and no longer active!" mean a little more than it seems to, here. It seems like a lot of bans are the result not of one specific act, but of a history of actions. If we consider the entire history all the time, why have warnings expire at all?

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You know what. Let me add a bit here.


Around 6-8 months ago, whenever I saw Manfred Hayden? I'd pray that I don't need engineering at ANY point and time. You made dealing with Engineering to be like pulling out teeth, with your snarky comments, or your unorthodox way of handling situations just made me feel like that section of the server would be unfun.


Now, let me add something. My encounters with him the past few days have been brief because I still hold a grudge against him as not only a character, but a player - I can say for the most part (Besides when I saw him build his way into virology when he got sick, and wound up just about venting the place) - I can't say I don't avoid engineering as much, but I can't really complain about my recent interactions.

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Well, who's problem is it to bear a grudge against a player for a character? What rule is that? Who's job is it to straighten out one player's dislike of another? Why are two CCIA players coming into describe their personal dislike of a character's personality? Shall everyone who enjoys Manfred also post? Do we moderate based on rules or shared biases? Laws or men?


What is the law? Don't be a dick, OOC. Who's a dick, OOC. The people keeping grudges on players for their characters? Or the player who admits he's stepped too far one day and has amassed the begrudged against him?


I value this server and its players enough to not grief and abuse and try to fight fair and hold my punches. I hold them OOC too. I try not to raise a fuss. I make an effort not to bear foul opinions of people I've had toes stepped on for. I try and talk it out OOC and LOOC. I recover dead bodies from space while antag, for goodness sake, because when I can spare a moment and a favor I always will.


But now I suppose we bring up every incident we remember ill of someone, incidents that didn't result in admin action at the time, but that will now be piled on in a grand dramatic parade of gossip.

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Now, let me add something. My encounters with him the past few days have been brief because I still hold a grudge against him as not only a character, but a player - I can say for the most part (Besides when I saw him build his way into virology when he got sick, and wound up just about venting the place) - I can't say I don't avoid engineering as much, but I can't really complain about my recent interactions.

 

I feel like there's a fine line between honesty and unnecessary honesty. Leading into another point with "granted I held a grudge against your character for some time" just makes me wonder whether people care on the subject of watching what they say.


And yet, ironically, you're likening to be holding something back. This is just a really silly post overall.

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Well, who's problem is it to bear a grudge against a player for a character? What rule is that? Who's job is it to straighten out one player's dislike of another? Why are two CCIA players coming into describe their personal dislike of a character's personality? Shall everyone who enjoys Manfred also post? Do we moderate based on rules or shared biases? Laws or men?


What is the law? Don't be a dick, OOC. Who's a dick, OOC. The people keeping grudges on players for their characters? Or the player who admits he's stepped too far one day and has amassed the begrudged against him?


I value this server and its players enough to not grief and abuse and try to fight fair and hold my punches. I hold them OOC too. I try not to raise a fuss. I make an effort not to bear foul opinions of people I've had toes stepped on for. I try and talk it out OOC and LOOC. I recover dead bodies from space while antag, for goodness sake, because when I can spare a moment and a favor I always will.


But now I suppose we bring up every incident we remember ill of someone, incidents that didn't result in admin action at the time, but that will now be piled on in a grand dramatic parade of gossip.

 

You know.


If you took the time to read my post, you'd have seen that I was in support of unbanning you.


But hey, you're letting your big head assume the absolute worst.


And why should it matter that I'm CCIA and have an opinion about a player on our server? End of the day it's my personal choice, and I've never once touched anything involving you, or your characters where a bias might have negatively affected you.

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"I can't really complain" is an apathetic response, not one of support.

You know what. Let me add a bit here.

Introductory, stand-offish.

 

Around 6-8 months ago, whenever I saw Manfred Hayden? I'd pray that I don't need engineering at ANY point and time. You made dealing with Engineering to be like pulling out teeth, with your snarky comments, or your unorthodox way of handling situations just made me feel like that section of the server would be unfun.

Completely negative feedback, very stand-offish. The kind of anti-social response that would be likened to being at a party and being the only one standing in a corner whilst everyone else is chatting and having fun, not wanting to associate with people you disagree with. Kind of a nasty way to think or talk of someone, don't you think?

 

Now, let me add something. My encounters with him the past few days have been brief because I still hold a grudge against him as not only a character, but a player - I can say for the most part (Besides when I saw him build his way into virology when he got sick, and wound up just about venting the place) - I can't say I don't avoid engineering as much, but I can't really complain about my recent interactions.

You've said nothing besides the fact that your encounters were vague and brief, and go on to vaguely explain that you "don't disassociate with engineering as much anymore" while bolting on that you held a grudge against the character + player because you didn't like them.


Maybe you could have phrased what you stated initially a lot better? Or perhaps not write your posts in the format that would bait the opposition into reacting negatively. I know that practice all too well myself.

 

But hey, you're letting your big head assume the absolute worst.

 

Ironic.

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I've seen Nikov do some questionable stuff, but never thought he did anything that amounted to a ban from engineering. And this most recent issue, from what I'm reading, seems trivial. Getting banned for a little N2O innovation is silly, its not like he was dumping phoron around.


He knows how to run the department better than anyone, and he contributes far more than he takes away, in terms of both gameplay and RP. People see him try new things and call him incompetent, when he's more often experimenting with new ideas; a concept that we ought to embrace in SS13. While I agree he does go a little overboard on occasion, I definitely dont think this ban should stick. Manfred keeps engineering interesting.

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I have just about nothing but good experiences with Manfred Hayden in Engineering. Two months ago, he was snarkier, now he seems more relaxed. As Nikov has told me himself, my impression is somewhat wacky, but it's probably just because I get the most interaction with Manfred in the worst rounds. Like when he's a cultist... In most cases, i've noticed that Manfred sticks to himself as a non-CE, and tends to try to stick to his Department and stay out of most non-Engineering affairs as a CE. Overall, he won my 'Most Innovative Engineer' vote for a reason. I'm going to be honest, I don't want the character to vanish entirely from the server, because of a petty N2O leak. I really hope there's more to it than that. Get whoever played that CE into this Unban Requests thread, IMO, for the whole situation.


I will share a story, maybe not too related to the situation in question, but it does show that Manfred isn't a one-dimensional character, not by any means... I was playing my Dionae Chaplain in one round, Hanira Yishu had been apprehended by Security and sentenced to HuT, well, Yishu kept asking for Crayons to occupy herself in the Brig. Eventually my Chaplain found a moment and gave them to her through a Security Officer. Later, she had killed herself with them. Shortly after, Security were being like 'Damn, that takes dedication.' and what not, Manfred kept complaining about Security, saying things like "How did you let this happen? you were supposed to be watching them!" Security responded, "It was a mistake, it won't happen again, people will be reprimanded, we assure you.", Manfred replied, "I Don't want your assurances, I want my friend back." not even three minutes after, when my Chaplain learned of what happened, it explained it had given the Crayons to Hanira, and repeatedly proclaimed over comms. "We... didn't... mean, for this... to happen... We... are, sorry..." and p. much the only person who said anything was Manfred. "No, it's not your fault..."


^ That, in no way shape or form sounds like someone who would throw their character away in an N2O grief on purpose.


 

Negative reply to Nikovs reply
Negative reply to Dreviores Negative reply to Nikovs Reply

 

This thread isn't to discuss each other, it's to discuss Nikov. Schev, Dreviore, please. Drev, I recognised you were supporting the unban, but you could've also just stated it directly.


"Or perhaps not write your posts in the format that would bait the opposition into reacting negatively."

Schev, your own reply itself is meant to do That... Don't forget there are rules.

 

2f93eabd39.png

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I was involved in this round, and also have had many experiences with Manfred as a few of my characters.


This ban doesn't seem, in my opinion, justified for what took place. A person took steps to strive to improve the station due to the aggressive undertones the station had. His actions had no negative impact upon the round, other than when the CE decided to remove said gasses from the window in a very poor manner. Sure, if the riots had gone on it would then have an impact, but the gasses are very noticeable and antagonists only need to take a single precaution to avoid this, which is internals or gas mask- and even then I'm pretty sure the windows would have failed to effect characters due to the low amount of gasses inside, but I wasn't able to see how much was put in.


Manfred as a character is very unorthodox at times, and that's fine, ingenuity on a research station should more than likely be expected, wanted, and nurtured since ingenuity brings innovation, and innovation brings creation, and the best of all: Profit. However should his unorthodox methods bring attention of others, they should be dealt with ICly, which is why we have the CCIA, despite their failings.


"Paraphrased; Not receiving permission from a Chief Engineer to make an atmospheric modification involving N2O in the bridge's electrified window space as an anti-tamper agent. "History of atmospherics issues and Poor play"."


This does not need OOC intervention, this is solely an IC issue with an engineer going over the head of his superior. Now if he had put N20 in the main distro line, then that's an OOC issue, but, this is not.

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Yeah this is super sketch and im lifting it immediately. This should have been left as an IC issue. I will investigate this internally to determine exactly why it happened and who should have known better than to place this. Sorry for the inconvenience nikov.

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