Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted December 13, 2017 Posted December 13, 2017 Bringing this back. We really need to cut through the vagueness of loyalty implants, and establish directives for them to properly guide, inform, and police LI play. This is a standard Nantrasen issued loyalty implant. It is physically impossible to violate implant directives. Attempting to bypass the directives through any malicious means, indirectly or directly, may cause: twitching, nosebleeds, seizures, and or chronic nightmares. The implant does not cover situations where the implanted takes action with insufficient evidence. However, upon being given information that shows a violation has occurred, they are to immediately try to fix the issue and inform relevant station or Central Command authorities. The directives would get a tab either in IC, or with a new tab, with "View directives" as a button where it would spell out the following, similar to AI law-set. These laws are: Protect and ensure the profitability of Nanotrasen. Protect and ensure the confidentiality of Nanotrasen's corporate secrets. Protect the public face and good name of Nanotrasen. Protect the physical assets owned by Nanotrasen. All directives are equally important, and you can choose which one to defer to if there is a conflict. You get them and are lawed to a private corporation to never question it. You are unquestioningly supportive. the LI cannot be removed after the shift. At every hour of every day, you eat, breathe, and think pro-NT. LI's protect you against being a mind-slave by mind-slaving you to NT. That is why you do not want a LI if you are offered by the CCIA that visits with 500 implants on his shuttle - because it makes you a slave. There is a reason to say 'no' when offered one, because currently they're a little piece of candy that earns you brownie points and completely opts you out of antagonist play. It also makes loyalty implant themed rev-rounds or general shenanigans REALLY hit and miss. I've seen Odin orders to LI the crew end in either a full insurrection or everyone shrugging and lining up to get one. There is a lot of baggage in LI but they are so underwhelming.
Butterrobber202 Posted December 13, 2017 Posted December 13, 2017 I like it, Captains seem to always be vague on the point of their Loyalty Implant sometimes.
Azande Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 LI's are turned off after the shift and I'm pretty sure you could go to a hospital and have it surgically removed for a fee (or anyone in medbay? lol) I like the idea of directives regardless, but there needs to be one about following orders from legitimate superiors in the chain of command.
Garnascus Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 LI's are turned off after the shift What?
Azande Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 LI's are turned off after the shift What? See: Visitor Captain, Head of Staff Captain. LI's have always been turned off after the shift and this is how every Captain RPs it.
sdtwbaj Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 I don't love the 'must follow orders' thing. I can only imagine the situations where a Captain gives a shit order to the HoS. If we must do laws, these aren't that bad, but I still think the concept of the LI as it stands is more trouble than it's worth, and moving to a mindshield approach is better.
Garnascus Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 See: Visitor Captain, Head of Staff Captain. LI's have always been turned off after the shift and this is how every Captain RPs it. this is apparently something that was passed around by staff and players without an original wiki source ever existing. it was THOUGHT to exist but as it turns out was never actually uploaded. Its being added now thanks to nursie. EDIT https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Nanotrasen_Corporation#Loyalty_Implants I don't love the 'must follow orders' thing. I can only imagine the situations where a Captain gives a shit order to the HoS. If we must do laws, these aren't that bad, but I still think the concept of the LI as it stands is more trouble than it's worth, and moving to a mindshield approach is better. The topic of loyalty implants has been hotly debated by staff and players alike since before even i was a mod. If i had a nickel for every ahelp we've argued over in two years concerning what people can and cannot do when implanted then i wouldn't have to keep forcing all of you to mine bitcoin for us. There are fundamental issues with the loyalty implant or any rework of it. Directives that seek to clarify only half meet that goal. If you cannot take my word for that (and you shouldnt) then try to tell me that AI laws are "clear" and then look at all the "what if" ahelps we get about them. Mindshield implants tacitly permit knowledge of "mind control mechanics" like cultists and vampires which opens a whole HOST of problems i really really do not want to get into. Even if we totally remove loyalty implants we still need a way to explain IN ROLEPLAY how captains and heads of security cannot be selected for cult conversions and other antagonist forms outside of rev/loyalist. The loyalty implant doesn't MECHANICALLY prevent you from rolling traitor or vampire of course. The job itself cannot get those roles. We might be able to just say "NT vets captains really really well!" but if im completely honest i think spooky mind control devices work well with the nefarious nature of nanotrasen. TLDR i hate this whole discussion and i am still in therapy over it.
Azande Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 Even if we totally remove loyalty implants we still need a way to explain IN ROLEPLAY how captains and heads of security cannot be selected for cult conversions and other antagonist forms outside of rev/loyalist. This is kind of grimdark, but we COULD explain it with indoctrination. Essentially, Captains and Heads of Security, immediately before promotion, would go through like a six month program of being 'indoctrinated', which is full of mock scenarios, tests, AND lots of corporate propaganda viewing (as in, being gently forced to sit in a room for hours watching reels of NT-is-amazing videos. In this way, the Captain and Head of Security are conditioned mentally to be loyal to the company, they think NanoTrasen is great, amazing! Their will is much harder to crack because of this (any conversion or mind control would have to deal with a mind that is not impressionable at this point). Walmart Managers go through an academy where they basically hear 'Walmart is great and amazing, and unions are terrible' before they can become an ASM+ , it would just be a more severe version of that.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 I am pretty sure we can just code that anyone that spawns as Captain, IAA, and HoS are unable to be converted (mechanically mimicking the loyalty implant) and handwaving it as being their specialized training in resisting indoctrination, brainwashing, and torture. You know, things we do irl.
sdtwbaj Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 my idea for mindshield implants is they act as a sanity implant, preventing those implanted with them from flying off the rocker or having some kind of mental breakdown. That could be applied to cult/vampire/etc. without ever touching having knowledge of them.
Kaed Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 I am pretty sure we can just code that anyone that spawns as Captain, IAA, and HoS are unable to be converted (mechanically mimicking the loyalty implant) and handwaving it as being their specialized training in resisting indoctrination, brainwashing, and torture. You know, things we do irl. I don't care for that idea. It implies that somehow, supernatural forces designed to prey upon the weakness of mortal beings can be thwarted by an instructional course of some kind that somehow renders them unable to be persuaded. Even in 'real life' indoctrination does not produce flawless minions so much as a lot of people who pretend to play along but still have their own feelings and opinions. At least the loyalty implant has the benefit of being a cold, unfeeling machine that does not have the flexible nature of the human mind to worry about.
Zundy Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 An implant with directives attached is literally the easiest and least strenuous on the lore. It all comes down to making sure the directives are robust enough.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted December 14, 2017 Posted December 14, 2017 Members of the military who take part in sensitive operations are trained on how to resist torture and interrogations. It would be very reasonable to say that because NanoTrasen captains and HoS and IAA are pretty prime targets for nasty Syndicate boys, that NanoTrasen has a form of training to resist mental techniques that, through whatever handwave we want to provide, also applies to eldritch horrors. I mean you are supposed to rp that you were scared shitless or whatever when cultists torture you, but thanks to your training you did not crack.
Butterrobber202 Posted December 15, 2017 Posted December 15, 2017 We could also say the Implabt doubles as a mind shield in addition to the directives. Also, if we are far enough into the future. Technology = around the same power as eldrtich demons
Alberyk Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 I guess adding directives a verb/this in the captain/hos/iaa wiki would be fine. @Senpai Jackboot do you still think this is needed? @Mofo1995 What is your opinion on the directives for the implant?
Arrow768 Posted May 10, 2020 Posted May 10, 2020 Given the replacement of loyalty implants with mindshields, this is no longer feasible. Therefore moving to rejected policy.
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