Character Complaint: Willow Harper

[Neinbox]

BYOND Key: Neinbox

Game ID: bWP-aWn7

Player Byond Key: Rosetango

Staff involved: None. I believed I could try to discuss with them what the problem was privately over Discord PMs.

Reason for complaint: First I would like to begin that this is not being used as a punishment but rather as a neutral area with a third party present to be a mediator to help us come to an understanding. Now, to the complaint. This is more or less an overall observation on the character Willow Harper. I've been trying to ignore it for a very long time, but it's become rather wearing and the round this morning finally made me want to address it. From what I've seen, Willow Harper's initial creation was an attempt at creating a more timid, shy human woman with a germophobia, and I really appreciated them. But over time and the player [mention]Rosetango[/mention] admitted, the character "became more and more volatile as time went on":

 

Now, as long as a good reason is provided and it was done in an agreeable manner, I'd be fine with it. But I personally don't feel it is so. From my ow observations- and this could be inaccurate- the character has had such a dramatic change and had since become an aggressive, borderline valid-hunting white-knight. Every time one of her friends or herself or someone she simply likes is slighted, she quickly launches a volley of verbal attacks at the offender. If the offender fires back if in person, it will shortly turn physical if in person and be held as a grudge. This is very true almost every time Willow and Shane Castralo make an exchange, and more often than not I see them in a physical altercation in departures or even on the shuttle.

To the round that made me write this: I had rolled Autotraitor YET AGAIN, and all hell had broken out in Medical. The place had lost atmos and power and Engineering was hard at work and everyone was working almost seamlessly as a team within the department. At one point one of the engineers Avery Zenthir got a popped lung, and Sid hastily hacked his way through so Julian McCoy could get the man the aid he needed, eventually getting them both to a sleeper with another engineer. Unfortunately the area was breached again and again Uwasv ran out in a hurry to try and lay down pipes to feed the room some air so Julian and Zenthir would be saved. Julian kept asking Sid to come back to push the button on the sleeper to administer dextalin so Zenthir could survive, but unfortunately Sid had his hands full trying to pressurize Medical. When Sid came back to check up on Zenthir to see how the man was holding up, this exchange happened:

 

For context, Uwasv had chewed out Willow for distracting an apprentice with what at the time appeared to be a bribe. Even as an antag, Sid puts his job first (it was so I could give myself time to either think up a gimmick or wait for an opportunity to show itself) no matter what, but there is the distinct difference that he becomes more aggressive than usual in comparison to his typical assertiveness. I knew Willow would have been upset at Sid and thought she would have at most only verbally repaid his kindness. Instead, I get this:

 

 

Now, this is pretty wrong to me for several reasons, and I will go over each. From what the player has told me about the incident, apparently Avery Zinther was a friend to Willow. Him and Sid has had it rough their first two rounds together, very rough, and it's fine because it was all IC. And according to Rosetango: "well she was told by avery that sid "made" him forget his internals. when sid kept approaching, she more or less grew afraid that sid was going to hurt avery, and acted to defend him", "willow saw that sid had worked ave past his limit and she decided that sid was a threat to ave". There is also this:

 

Please note this was immediately after the round, and yes, I was a little irritated at the time, I won't deny it. Me saying that the man was a stranger was a misunderstanding, but at the time my point was that she's known Sid longer, and through the time that she has (as far as I can remember) Sid has never laid a hand on anyone whatsoever canonically, and at worst has only started mild verbal altercations once in a while. And as I have stated in our DMs with previous observations of Willow's canonical actions, I've a gut feeling that in no way would a company tolerate her behavior. Outside of the OOC factor that there was a lack of fear RP for a hulking pissed-off Bananazilla, she had physically touched, grabbed, and somehow thrown an employee I hate the throw mechanic who was only acting irritated with her as Sid had spent the majority of the round busting his ass just to be commanded by this diminutive woman of a physically weaker species. That's minor assault.

Atop of her past minor assaults upon Shane and possible other employees and lack of general fear RP, this character has become very wearing to experience in rounds and ruins the immersion of a believable character. There's no way a company would tolerate such childlike, impulsive, or aggressive behavior of this scale from an employee and realistically would have fired her. Sure, my character's an ass, but his acting out is very, very specific and happens sporadically on a more believable, lesser scale and with good, deep-seated reason. I would like to remind the player that this is not an attack on them, only on the way the character is handled. I simply want an understanding that the behavior is just immersion-breaking, that I would like a second opinion on it, and if needed a correction (which I personally feel it is) to the way the character is played so we can all go back to enjoying the game together. Thank you in advance, I know this was a tad long to read.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? No, and none.

Approximate Date/Time: 10/13/2018 or 10/14/2018

[TheLoneWolfer]

Hey hallo, I read this post and forgive me if I posted this the wrong way or in the wrong format/etc, i'm the player of Avery Zenthir, the one that was mentioned in the story of Neinbox as the Engineer with the Ruptured Lung, as I read this and again, forgive me for my 'wording', I'm not from America but from Europe, I find that some of the points Neinbox made are in some way 'relevant' yes, but, I do have some own answers but also my own viewpoint I can give to help both Neinbox here and RoseTango.

Story: In my own perspective in IC there was a accident with Avery Zenthir forgetting his internals when he was helping Sid, and Balki the other Engineer in Medical, but before that happened Avery did his own routine, which he met with Willow several times on shift, she wasn't already in a good mood because of the events that occurred in the shift (Something to do with a Rebellion?).

Do I find Willow's personality a bit 'hostile' or a endangerment to other crewmembers? no, I do find that Willow as the character ICLY should need help with this, ofcourse this all could also be pocketed in the 'Roleplay' section, I know i'm not much of a help here but I do find there must be also a other perspective in this 'happening'. All in a short story: Willow was already dealing with things this shift, when she heard one of her friends 'Avery Zenthir' was the patient in Medical, and also knowing what happened she became a 'protective' friend, she found Sid in my viewpoint a bit 'Intimidating', like Neinbox said, it's a 7'2 Unathi walking over to a occupied sleeper pod with Willow's friend in it.

The fact that Willow already told Sid to (I don't know if I have it right), 'Get out' or 'Stand back' was already a good enough and 'strong' response to Sid's presence in the area, but when Sid came closer to the pod, Willow grabbed him and threw him back, she was not having it if more trouble could have overcome to her friend (Avery), or if all hell broke loose one way or the other, again, WIllow wasn't in a good mood either because of the other 'Events' occuring outside of Medical.

Sorry if some points in this was more one-sided and not much double-sided, again, not the type with words, specially as I try to explain it, I do hope this could help both Neinbox and RoseTango, because in the end, it was good Roleplay.

[Neinbox]

Sorry if some points in this was more one-sided and not much double-sided, again, not the type with words, specially as I try to explain it, I do hope this could help both Neinbox and RoseTango, because in the end, it was good Roleplay.

 

It's all good, there's no need to apologize! If anything, your input is more than welcomed on the situation if you were ever involved with it (or the character), and after the initial post there is no formatting involved other than stay on topic etc etc.

Personally I just find it a really... odd situation. He wasn't being physically threatening upon approach, and only showed his annoyance with her after she commanded him to get out. On top of that, Zenthir didn't seem to mind either as he didn't say anything about Sid approaching- although he could have been unconscious at the time. I could not see if that was what was going on. Here in America, going through all the training and such, we are firmly warned by corporations to not touch another employee in such a way and it would be taken as a minor assault. In the Wiki, a minor assault is this:

i103 Minor Assault 
To use, or threaten, physical force against someone, without intent to kill or seriously injure. To cause easily repairable damage to a free IPC chassis, up to and including the removal of limbs. 
If it causes minor damage and easily treatable damage, it's minor assault. Starting fights with other employees or punching fellow employees counts too, as well as seriously threatening them with it. Force-feeding someone is this unless it's poisonous or knocks them unconscious. 

Now I know he's a big boy that can take care of himself and he didn't file a report on it. But if you think about it, it doesn't matter. Under no circumstances did the character have any right to touch another employee as he did not present himself as a threat, only irritated. This isn't a school where you push the bully that said something mean to you; this is work.

And like all good employees with access to security in general (this not applying to just the round but as an overall statement especially so for canon rounds), the character should have been responsible and told security that she was having trouble such as being harassed by another employee instead of taking matters into her own hands and dishing out cold, hard justice as she saw fit. If a cop sees people wailing on one another with fisticuffs, both would be brought in. And if your boss keeps getting reports that you were in yet another brawl, you can say goodbye to your paycheck. Sure, I understand that this is a game where we play people in space. But this does disturb the atmosphere with just how often it occurs.

And out of curiosity for what could be a useless detail, did Avery in fact tell Willow that Sid "made" him forget his internals, [mention]TheLoneWolfer[/mention] ?

I don't care much for that round in particular because Sid was an antagonist and nothing was canon overall with how uncharacteristically aggressive he was, but this is more just for overall character behavior on Willow's part.

[TheLoneWolfer]

Heya [mention]Neinbox[/mention] Thank you for responding to my reply, I appreciate it that I get some help here and there.

As what you said in your 2nd post. It is still a thing with the whole 'Law Enforcement' and the Rules that people should follow, specially in a situation where the people get into a 'Conflict' or being 'Handsy', though like you said, they are all in Space, basically in one big metal 'box', what happened was not the way it should've ended, but, alot of people can get a bit 'stressed' specially with the events that were going on around the shift, it's really for me a 50/50, you know? Willow protecting her friend, but also that it's somewhere 'under' Security to call them if something has happened, but in a way, sadly alot of people do this if there's a emergency at the time. Surface with the Rebellion and Medical needing their pipes fixed etc, they don't know what to do or if Security cannot aid them as quickly as possible, again Willow did say in some manner to Sid to 'Stand back' or something along the lines of it, yet, Sid got closer to Willow (Who already was 'angry' at Sid) and to the Injured Engineer (Avery).

Ps. Avery didn't say specifically that Sid 'made' him forget his internals, Avery told Willow that he forgot his internals because he needed to go to point A to B quickly, Bringing the dispensers to Medical to aid with the repair, but also before that fixing the 'breach' in Cargo, it was all a 'cluster of misfortune' going around.

[Neinbox]

Heya @Neinbox Thank you for responding to my reply, I appreciate it that I get some help here and there.

As what you said in your 2nd post. It is still a thing with the whole 'Law Enforcement' and the Rules that people should follow, specially in a situation where the people get into a 'Conflict' or being 'Handsy', though like you said, they are all in Space, basically in one big metal 'box', what happened was not the way it should've ended, but, alot of people can get a bit 'stressed' specially with the events that were going on around the shift, it's really for me a 50/50, you know? Willow protecting her friend, but also that it's somewhere 'under' Security to call them if something has happened, but in a way, sadly alot of people do this if there's a emergency at the time. Surface with the Rebellion and Medical needing their pipes fixed etc, they don't know what to do or if Security cannot aid them as quickly as possible, again Willow did say in some manner to Sid to 'Stand back' or something along the lines of it, yet, Sid got closer to Willow (Who already was 'angry' at Sid) and to the Injured Engineer (Avery).

Ps. Avery didn't say specifically that Sid 'made' him forget his internals, Avery told Willow that he forgot his internals because he needed to go to point A to B quickly, Bringing the dispensers to Medical to aid with the repair, but also before that fixing the 'breach' in Cargo, it was all a 'cluster of misfortune' going around.

 

No problem, and thanks for the input and replies!

To be honest that round with all three of them was hellish on them ICly, and I don't know if security was available at that time anyways. But that's fine, it wasn't really a canon round so it doesn't matter too much. Like I said, this is just an overall personal review and that was the event that spurred this complaint. In the end, I just hope things will be made clearer for both me and Rosetango and we reach an understanding. Again, thank you for your input!

[tbear13]

Hi, so I've had a similar issue with Willow Harper in the past few days, and I wanted to bring it up here. I don't have the round ID or logs, however.

Starting off with some background, the round was Malf, and the AI was running a gimmick that involved 'breaking' and being re-lawed to be obsessed with cookies. I'm a security borg, and re-lawed by the AI. After the AI and other borg shut down, I was told to get re-lawed. I managed to avoid being re-lawed, and bothered the chef about making me cookies for around thirty minutes, waving a baton or taser around a few times to 'encourage' her.

So, onto the actual incident! I was leaving the kitchen and headed towards the bathroom to use the charger in there, when Willow stops me outside the kitchen. She demands that I stop bothering the chef, apparently a good friend of hers. I refuse to stop, and she begins threatening me, telling me that she'll destroy me if I don't stop. After I continue to refuse, she picks up a stool and starts walking towards me, apparently trying to attack me, and I pull out a baton, making sure to show that I'm armed with a Me verb. After she gets close, we have a minute-long standoff, before the chef finally manages to talk her down.

The issue itself isn't too bad, but it does show a lack of fear RP in my opinion. She was willing to fight an armed borg, who she knew was malfunctioning and, to an extent, violent, with a bar stool. My problem with Willow isn't that she tries to help friends, it's the fact that she's willing to do *anything* to help them. It seems that she doesn't care about the consequences of her actions, including death.

I can recall another incident where I was the Head of Security, when me and a few others were speaking to a traitor we'd locked up in solitary. Willow ran up to solitary, and began bothering security, getting in their way, and heckling us about us 'violating the prisoner's rights.' She refused to leave until she was flashed, cuffed, and literally dragged out of security, only avoiding being charged because we were too busy at that point.

And this pretty much shows the same thing, to a lesser extent. She tried to help her friend, while ignoring several orders from security to leave, and was willing to take any punishment she received just to make the point.

[Resilynn]

I had an issue about a week ago where a cadet had pulled a gun on my paramedic, and then on a miner. Without an HoS present, I ordered a borg to arrest the cadet. Willow Harper stood between the borg and the traitor cadet, apparently her friend, going so far even as to uncuff him, and threatening my cmo.

[Brutishcrab51]

You know, I really like Rosetango, but uh.

The last time I played the server, a month or two ago, I had a bad experience with Willow Harper. There was a Raider team with a funny Thunderdome gimmick, we all played along, myself and the Captain (I was the HoS) fought them in the Dome. Captain got his head cut off by a genuine energy sword, there was a brief fight, Security won (if memory serves).

So, Willow was a pest all round. She used her Security access (As a Janitor) to come yell at me and the Captain in the Security sub-level about how some friend of hers (I cannot for the life of me remember who) was being mistreated by Security. We blew her off, due to the aggressive way she approached us. Later, when the Captain's head was cut off, she decided to break into Surgery after I dragged the Captain's body in (for a head reattachment and then cloning).

She broke in, screaming at me about not walking away from her (she had the Captain's head), and after I flashed her with proper warning when she started to get aggressive, got into a physical fight with my HoS, going so far as to use surgical tools to harm me. She got stunned down, handcuffed, and thrown across the table, where I told a Detective (Apparently a good friend of hers) to get her out of my sight. He told me to go fuck myself, as did the CSI, who I believe was also a friend. Again, names escape me.

I just dislike the real disregard for dangerous situations, and the shoe-in-mouth indifference to violent escalation, really, along with the eagerness to play a backseat antagonist. It really reminds me of another character that was extremely aggressive and inappropriate, Joe Vick. Way too aggressive and inappropriate, but in a different way.

Resilynn might remember more about that round, she played one of the Raiders.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Guest

[Butterrobber202]

During a Wizard round, when the Wizard summoned an actual flesh monster/horror to the station, which Willow saw. (When you examined the mob it had a pretty gruesome appearance, that would melt the mind of a sane person.) Willow Harper overheard Security's plan to capture and kill the Wizard and it’s monster, and then proceeded to warn the Antag over comms. When yelled at, she said it wasn’t 'ethical' or something similar to that.

[geeves]

It sounds like there's a deeper seated issue, with Willow Harper and her friends (meta or IC, unknown) are WAY too eager to assist each other. I have had many similar experiences, with Harper being a little too aggressive to an Unathi a bit taller and stronger than she is. Almost every time there's an antag, she WILL be involved in some way, usually shoehorning and wedging her way in there in a very unpleasant way.

[Coalf]

We encourage people to post here but please keep it on the actual complaint topic.

[Coalf]

During a Wizard round, when the Wizard summoned an actual flesh monster/horror to the station, which Willow saw. (When you examined the mob it had a pretty gruesome appearance, that would melt the mind of a sane person.) Willow Harper overheard Security's plan to capture and kill the Wizard and it’s monster, and then proceeded to warn the Antag over comms. When yelled at, she said it wasn’t 'ethical' or something similar to that.

 

I believe I was in the round as the priestess stoking the flame as the crowd was getting violent due to the presence of a flesh-melting demon, but to explain when I asked Willow herself she said that she was, correct me if I'm wrong, okay with the wizard and the cat being there. She had not expressed as far as I remember any raised empathy for the fleshmonster from my experience.

[MattAtlas]

Popping in to say that Strudel and I will be handling this complaint.

[Ornias]

I'll be writing a more formulated response to this later, but I'd like to put in my two cents in the least vitriolic way possible.

 

Willow Harper and her friends (meta or IC, unknown) are WAY too eager to assist each other.

I think almost the entirity of the issues that most people encounter can be traced back to this, or some variation of it.

Generally, acting in abnormal or volatile ways in-character will be punished by appropriate in-character reaction. If someone is an asshole, violent, or picks a fight with someone bigger than them, the optimal resolution is that the world responds appropriate. That does not mean that they should always fail, but there should always be significant consequences for acting in significant ways.

The issue arises, however, from the fact that by combination of Willow Harper's friendships, her attitude, and the methods of her intervention, it is incredibly difficult to 'punish' (and I use this term loosely) aggressive or unrealistic behavior. Her status on the Aurora grants her practical immunity to several members of security, by way of them not arresting her, in addition to her relationship with a captain character. Note that this is not bad, necessarily. The use of connections on-station should be something that can be exploited for personal gain. But in the same way we give antagonists the freedom to cause chaos and the responsibility to do it well, with great power comes great responsibility.

Further, incident reports are by no means a foolproof system. A lot of people have been disillusioned by them (rightly or wrongly). Further, due to Willow's consistent interaction with antagonists, it's very hard to put down an IR even if you desire one just due to how likely antagonist involvement is. Further, it's impossible to arrest someone for unrealistic things when there are more significant things going on. It's a Catch 22- you can't arrest someone for their behavior without being viewed as petty due to it's relatively small status in the scope of the round, but, simultaneously, by not arresting them, you allow it to be perpetuated.

Many of my characters have been hit by her through, what I consider, realistic and believable actions, often even minor ones. I play some aggressive or bigoted characters. I strive very hard to make them believable in our setting. I play characters I consider downright evil, who have canonically blackmailed members of the Aurora. I have nothing against character aggression. I have an issue with a character who cannot be 'punished', yet acts in a way that grievously deserves it.

This will come largely out of right field, because it's the first time I've really expressed these opinions, and I hope it isn't taken as a personal attack. That is not the intention. Again, it's not exactly Willow Harper's ""fault"", not entirely. But it's something that does need to be addressed. An incredibly vitriolic character, who everyone I speak to on station has seen in a canonical fight, who knows she's aggressive, yet is supposedly on tenuous grounds, is not a bad character. It's just not a dynamic character. And a lack of dynanicism, a lack of place within the setting, causes the experience to be more Willow-centric than station-centric, if that makes sense, because while Willow can impact the station, it's very difficult for the station to impact Willow.

I'll edit this post later when I have more free time to better get across my point. For now, however, I hope you consider these points, and where the crews grievances lie.

[Rosetango]

I just wanted to state that I've been reading all of these and I'll make an in-depth reply tomorrow. Thank you all for going through this, even those who didn't have to but did anyway.

I would also like to remind EVERYONE that I have a discord (Rosetango#9810) and I should be message-able on the byond messenger. If you have any criticisms for Harper or issues, please please please tell me about it. I have Asperger's, so I often fail to understand or pick up social cues that others do. This entire thread is why I've begged repeatedly in OOC to talk to me about any issues regarding Harper. I know Harper's portrayal is flawed. But I can't fix it if I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

[Bauser]

I'm confused as to whether this is the thread for Neinbox's complaint against Willow Harper because 4 people have come in to share unrelated stories about times they didn't like her, all on the basis that she does controversial things in a purely in-character capacity. This is not Battle Royale: Willow Harper Edition, it's not a popularity contest, and it's not an invitation for everyone who doesn't like the character to come out of the woodwork. If you have a complaint to make, you make a complaint.

Willow Harper is anti-authoritarian, and idealistic/selfless with regards to in-character relationships; this naturally and rationally leads her to getting in over her head more than other characters. I would like to remind the playerbase, in a general sense, that the fact that this inconveniences you is not a breach of roleplay. The fact that she gets more involved with the narrative (esp. antagonists) is not a breach of roleplay.

I see a lot of sentiment from people who are angry that the player doesn't play Willow more "normally," but I broadly advise those people to focus on creating their own fun instead of being mad at someone else for doing it. To quote myself, when I had this same conversation a couple days ago, Rosetango is not someone who waits around to be told she's allowed to play the game. And frankly, I think that's a model many of you could learn from. You look in your neighbor's bowl to make sure they have enough, not to see if they have too much.

[Resilynn]

I'm confused as to whether this is the thread for Neinbox's complaint against Willow Harper because 4 people have come in to share unrelated stories about times they didn't like her, all on the basis that she does controversial things in a purely in-character capacity. This is not Battle Royale: Willow Harper Edition, it's not a popularity contest, and it's not an invitation for everyone who doesn't like the character to come out of the woodwork. If you have a complaint to make, you make a complaint.

Willow Harper is anti-authoritarian, and idealistic/selfless with regards to in-character relationships; this naturally and rationally leads her to getting in over her head more than other characters. I would like to remind the playerbase, in a general sense, that the fact that this inconveniences you is not a breach of roleplay. The fact that she gets more involved with the narrative (esp. antagonists) is not a breach of roleplay.

I see a lot of sentiment from people who are angry that the player doesn't play Willow more "normally," but I broadly advise those people to focus on creating their own fun instead of being mad at someone else for doing it. To quote myself, when I had this same conversation a couple days ago, Rosetango is not someone who waits around to be told she's allowed to play the game. And frankly, I think that's a model many of you could learn from. You look in your neighbor's bowl to make sure they have enough, not to see if they have too much.

 

Playing the hero is against our rules. Fear RP is important. Those are the biggest points, I feel like, both in the first example and the supporting evidence that followed. And both are OOC issues.

On that note, Rose is hardly a bad person, and I think she is the first to admit that she has some failings with her RP that she’s trying hard to work on. I’ve certainly seen improvement since the days of Leah Siskin, but if I’m being entirely honest, it seems like she has taken a couple steps backward over the last few weeks.

The recent play of Harper has been bad. You can’t jump into conflict and start fights with people daily, resorting very quickly to physical violence, and realistically expect your character to maintain employment. You can’t ignore any fear of antagonists in favor of jumping in and saving your friends.

But we have had these conversations before, and Rose has made improvements in the past. If anything, I hope that this complaint serves to remind her to keep making those improvements, because Rose, you were doing pretty good. And it’s okay to take a couple steps back now and then, but please take this feedback as encouragement to keep moving forward.

[Bauser]

It says generally don't play hero. And generally, she doesn't. The rule exists to stop valid-hunters, those tropes of people who take up weapons and pursue kills for the metagame. This is obviously not what Willow does; every incident is motivated by in-character considerations, people just don't like that she can butt in. We don't punish security players for fearlessly throwing themselves like corpses at every danger, even though it's even more patently ridiculous in their case (because they actually know how powerful the antagonists are - ninjas and wizards that can kill you instantly, ffs). It's not like Willow takes up arms and chases

Let's look at the possible offenses.

1) Avoid pain. The description of this specifies that a character will not engage in actions that are overly painful without consideration. In every case where Willow has placed herself in the path of potential harm, she was inspired by an in-game consideration. Next.

2) Characters must be believable and well-rounded. Just because someone isn't normal, doesn't mean they're not believable or otherwise realistic. Recall that, in fact, the actual real world is full of people who are not normal, and who behave without putting themselves first, or without the same fear that a lot of people experience. A great majority of these people even have jobs, because everyone falls into some place in society. This behavior would be unacceptable in an administrative role, but Willow Harper is a janitor. Literally the the lowest rung on the ladder, socially speaking, so there is no question that she could get hired given that she displays basic proficiency and rationality.

 

And now let's remember the rule statements which safeguard behavior like Willow's.

1) Criminal characters are allowed, if they are done in a believable fashion whilst non-antagonists. There has been nothing but consistency regarding Willow's breaches of regulation. She acts out on basically two conditions: that she believes someone is being wrongly oppressed, or that she believes someone she cares about is threatened. These are utterly real and understandable motivations, and they are executed in a way that is not forwardly antagonizing, but always reactionary. I was the cadet she tried to help when I was getting arrested, and she intervened because I was tazed when I was completely cooperating, and she saw it all happen. Willow jumps in to say that's wrong because she knows that if she doesn't do it, nobody will. Again, nothing unrealistic, just a rare display of a person having actual sympathies.

Even the topic complaint of this thread is about shoving someone. That's it. And given the batshit crazy circumstances of game rounds, there is completely no doubt that volatile behavior like that would realistically arise. There is no case to be made that Willow's involvement constitutes a hijacking of a round's overall plot, and instead it's always just her attempting to get her word in edge-wise, in a way that people will actually listen. This is what a character who actually has motivations looks like. I know most players aren't accustomed to that, but that's what makes this a teachable moment.

2) Conflict is acceptable, even if you are not an antagonist. The stipulation for this statement is that it needs to be believable, and that is satisfied in every case by the demonstrable fact that Willow has a concrete motivation. It is a more radical motivation than many other players', but that is not against the rules, because it's in-character and realistic. Willow Harper is a controversial character because she gets involved in important parts of the game, and that pisses people off. And in response to that, a great multitude of people have waged an OOC war against her, she is a constant subject of ridicule in the metagame IC and OOC, facing scrutiny and verbal abuse regularly beyond the scope of what she's earned in every round where she doesn't try to play hero for anyone.

 

The only reason I'm in this thread is because I'm disgusted by the overwhelming probability that people's personal dislike of the character will continue to translate into the OOC grudge that her detractors have made it. I'm sure you're correct in saying the character has experienced lapses in realism, just as I'm sure most people's response to her is an overreaction. There is not a character on Aurora who would survive the absolute scrutiny that Willow faces, every action under a microscope, so it would not be fair to subject any character to that scrutiny. So I'm here to make sure she doesn't face a death of 1000 papercuts just because people don't like her. I am broadly unconvinced of peoples' ability to separate their IC and OOC feelings, and so on the grounds that any complaint against her will be overstated, I will be appearing here entirely in her defense.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Harper has attempted to beat my character to a pulp over minor battery or snide remarks. It's not her feisty behavior that is the primary problem but that her sense of escalation goes from 0 to 10 within a heartbeat.

Excessive self defense and assaults are her foray and it's happened to my characters as well. What I'd accept as a massive improvement when she attacks my characters as a nonantag is if she pulls her punches if she lands the first blow until the other person escalates higher.

Her attitude can be ok but the escalation is very problematic

[JKJudgeX]

I'll be brief:

Bauser is 100% spot on in both of his posts above.

Willow has friends aboard the station, just like you might have at your actual workplace. Someone who you might stick your neck out a little bit extra if something bad were to happen there. Sometimes even when you're wrong. That's interesting roleplay, IMO.

I've never seen her straight up trash an antagonist in an unrealistic way or "play the hero" any more than performing the most basic functions of "drag a hurt person to medbay" or "administer emergency first aid" and on many, many of the occasions of antagonists attacking the station, I've seen her fear RP result in hiding somewhere and barricading herself in to keep herself hidden and safe, doing little more than offering other people a place to hide from the danger, which is highly realistic fear RP if you ask me.

I think all of the problems here could and should be resolved in a completely positive IC manner, with no need for administrative action OOC of any sort. Just my 2 cents.

Bauser said it best, though.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

[mention]Bauser[/mention] my intention is not to put Harper on blast for friendships. It is the escalation she does. When I interact with her she has responded to snide remarks or a pulling by attempting to maul my character within an inch of their life. This has happened in two situations.

Pulled punches or restraint are all she needs and would have no made the brawls we had problematic at all for my own situations with harper.

[Neinbox]

[mention]Bauser[/mention] , the original intent of this complaint is to bring forth the overall issue of the character of Willow Harper in the way of how she interacts with others (specifically escalation, thank you JB for that wording) and a general lack of fear RP. The purpose of everyone coming forth is to say "hey, this isn't an isolated incident, here's some context to as of why it is a repeated issue and why it bothered me". People are allowed to do it. This is not an attack on the player or the character, this is just bringing to light an issue with the character that we would all like addressed. The player said that they were trying to improve their character's actions within the past couple of weeks, but from what other players and I have observed, it is clearly not.

But that's okay! Instead of bombarding PMs it is being brought up here where there is staff to make sure no one can get away with fighting and remain cordial with one another. If there were any flat out attacks on the character or the player, a staff member would put a stop to it and possibly remove the offensive post. There is more than one person here saying "we like both but there is indeed a problem with this aspect." There's nothing wrong with that. If anything, we are simply trying to help bring awareness to a problem. Is there a lot of "awareness posting going on"? Sure. But there's nothing wrong with bringing an encouraged complaint problem forwards. You can defend the player or the character all you want, but do not attack the others over their valid concern.

Realistically, would you beat the shit out of someone after hearing them say they somewhat disliked something about a friend of yours? Would you immediately start chewing them out? Or would you try to be more reasonable and talk to them to find an understanding? How would any employer put up with that? And to the next subject, if a dog snarled at you were you to try an reach out to it, would you jerk your hand back or would you continue to try to pet it knowing full well it could maul you- or even dare think it wouldn't despite the warnings? Any living organism without sapient sentience has the base instinct to draw back to preserve itself.

No, I am not saying that the player should wait around for RP- in fact, I encourage others to take the initiative to do things like strike up a conversation with someone or ask them if they need help. That is absolutely fine. But what isn't is constantly being on the attack all the time. Sure, having a criminal is fine as a character. I have one. But it's done tastefully. As far as I'm concerned, Willow isn't a criminal but instead acts out very immaturely in comparison to how other criminalistic characters behave. I want my characters to interact with theirs, but with the way they are, it makes my characters and I wary ICly and OOCly of doing so- which is actually detracting from everyone's RP experience. If you want to RP with people, you should attract them. This behavior is more pushing them away, and no one wants that. I've got several characters I've wanted for Willow to make friends with, but from what they've seen of her, she's near unapproachable half out of not wanting to deal with her volatile behavior and whiplash, or out of flat out fear of lashback from her, especially physical.

[Munks]

Willow Harper's Security Records alone show more security involvement than any character should realistically have, and her Employment Records show canon punishment on file with CCIA. Additionally, her Medical Records show a canon, continuously deteriorating mental state, one that Rosetango intentionally wrote for the character, to the point where Harper couldn't actually pass a mental examination (one of the bare minimal requisites of working for NT) and, again by Rosetango's own design, is bordering on officially being declared mentally unstable. Willow Harper is intentionally being played in this lowRP manner, with the classic defense of being psychotic, which is specifically restricted at the very top of the Creating a Character section of the rules. She's already been hit with a successful CCIA investigation which has done absolutely nothing to curb this antagonistic behavior, as with the history of Security involvement, which the records have only even captured a few more minor charges. There is a point where a character is obviously too unstable to have continued employment on station and Willow Harper, as an individual, surely passed that point long ago. Rosetango could probably play a better character if they actually wanted to, but at this point it should be with a different character, as Willow's continued presence on station in and of itself breaks roleplay and this is clearly the intended path of the character considering Rosetango wrote her mental instability into Willow's records and continues to act in such a manner despite already having received both in-game and CCIA punishment for doing so

[Bauser]

Harper seems unapproachable? Don't approach her. Problem solved. Nobody forces the security team to make fun of Willow every time she shows up on Aurora, and they do. I have personally had to be the one telling her that they were slandering her just for being there, and when she tried to call them out on it, they accused her of misusing the radio and did everything in their power to threaten and silence her. Remember that they were the self-made antagonists in this case, no one forced them to verbally abuse her, unprovoked. And it pisses me off that they (and, by extension, everyone decrying Harper's actions in this and similar cases) think they get to have it both ways: They want to be able to be vitriolic and get away with bullying someone because of their OOC knowledge, but when she turns around and reacts to that vitriol or enacts her own, suddenly somehow she's the problem. If this is you (whoever you are), your hypocrisy makes me sick.

Let's go over that security record:

1) touched someone

3) used the radio (and we all know this was just for speaking out against security's bad practices)

4) stood in the wrong part of the departures area

5) accidental injury during regular exercise

Won't somebody stop this insane criminal. So, we're down to two actual incidents, and one of which (the argument that got too heated) is supplied with in-character reasoning right on the tin. I was there when the dog bit her without provocation. There was no forward warning. This is what I mean by facing undue scrutiny; people will take every event and twist it to make it suit their narrative. In this case, that Harper is unhinged and just waiting for every excuse to slander and abuse. Has she flown off the handle in the past? Yes. But no more than is permitted by the rules, and crucially, no less than is demanded by the reality of her character.

CCIA reports?

These are an in-character consideration and, in-character, she fulfilled her in-character punishment... In-character. If you believe this punishment to be insufficient, file another report. This is not ammunition for evidencing an out-of-character punishment; if these actions had been out-of-character, they should have been addressed with a character complaint instead of a CCIA report. The fact that they were handled with CCIA reports proves that the actions were in-character and within the scope of the rules. You say they did nothing to curb her behavior, but that's an obvious falsehood, since she was successfully removed from the game for a month.

Medical records?

Displays one diagnosed illness, which is controlled with medicine. The rules forbid the creation of characters who are insane; Willow has, at every juncture, demonstrated rationality and, even in severe cases, the capacity to pass every threshold for employment (esp. considering the presence of pharmaceutical controls). She just has different priorities than other people. In conclusion, if you want Willow to stop acting out, even to stop flying off the handle and 'escalating too suddenly', stop being a dick to her. You don't get to have it both ways, you can't pick on and provoke a mentally fragile person and then cry when they react the way a mentally fragile person would. It is the sole exceptional quality of a bad-tempered person that they take things from 0 to 100 real quick. So Willow's detractors need to realize that, even if Willow does most of the legwork, performing the escalation, if she was not the agonist, then she cannot be attributed with the harm that comes of it. It's simple: You mess with the bull, you get the horns.

That message rings doubly true for complaints like Jackboots', who alleges that she beat him for 'only a minor battery.' What a nonsense phrase. This is exactly the kind of case that I think is most illuminating: You escalated to physical contact because you wanted to have things your way - knowing full well the in-character state and limitations of who you're dealing with - and yet when she escalates further because she wants to have it her way too, you accuse her of wrongdoing. Every complaint here is, at most, worthy of a CCIA report. If you're not happy with what those have accomplished thus far, then file more of them - just don't think your grievances give you the right to wage war on the character out-of-character. As far as we can see, every element in the saga of Willow Harper is people starting shit and then getting pissy because she finishes it.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I did not attempt to have my way with Willow Harper through the incident. I know minor battery may seem like a problematic phrase, but we need to also look at it from a reasonability perspective in the form of the game. If you are pulled 2 tiles, or do the help intent shuffle, mauling that person is a weird escalation. If I misclicked you with a hug, and you beat me to crit, I would also say you had a bit of an unreasonable response. Surgically removing the context from the term 'battery' in the realm of what this means in gameplay terms is a bad faith argument.

I outlined the issue I found and suggested a reasonable method of handling it that still allows Harper to act out or even get physically confrontational in response to triggers or other abuse. I cannot speak for others, who may very well be jumping into Harper with their own intentions. All I'd want to see as improvement is a toning down of death threats and the pulling of punches.

In a very similar situation, I once got into a verbal confrontation with a Unathi at the bar, and made a vulgar gesture at them. They responded to the vulgar gesture by sprinting towards me and smashing a bottle on my character's head and intending on committing further brutal maulings. This was an unreasonable escalation. Later confrontations were much better, with snide remarks met with snide remarks, or minor tussles.

I've said my peace and we will end up arguing in circles, as I am not an administrator and only wanted to provide my testimony.