Departmental Security

[Itanimulli]

Oh, this topic came back. Joyous, I suppose, as I was missing the drama.

On more serious terms, I feel this will lead to more issues regarding who is and is not a "sec main" and other useless prattle.

I'm completely against a hard-coded version of this. I do, however, think the sub-offices should be a thing. Why? Well, so security can make use of them as security sees fit. Plenty of other servers have them; even lrp servers like yog, where I'm guessing this strange 'sec man bad' mentality that we hear over and over (along with the occasional resurgence of 'ipc man bad' and '[name an antag] should be nerfed/removed') sentiment hails from.

The kind of lengthy assumptions about what might be good for a particular group of players that people seem to make don't actually make sense in context to most of the players you see in security. Most of them spend time interacting with the crew. Even the "desk sitters" (heavily ironic in regards to some of the other departments, btw) people like to talk about have purpose. They usually respond asap when someone enters the lobby and requests assistance.

I really like the dialogue between sec and the rest of the departments these days. It seems like most of the IC tensions have healed, at least from my very narrow perspective, and that's good.

Changing the subject abruptly towards the future, I think departmental sec (or at least clear-cut divisions that preform different functions) will be useful for the NBT. Give mech jockeys plz. Like off-station escort, and the usual current patrol/maintain order on-station roles. Maybe even a whitelisted metaclique subgroup the players themselves trust to make good decisions with heavier equipment.

[CampinKiller]

At this point, I'd prefer to have sub-offices be added in, and no other changes. Let it be used if Sec wants to use it, but don't force it. That way we don't have to have some asinine policy of an RD commanding a Sec officer in their department over the HoS doing so.

[Nantei]

6 hours ago, ben10083 said:

Yet their jurisdiction only resides in that department, which in cases of engineering, means you are responsible for watching over an area that is clear of life usually after the first 20 minutes. Which means that the officer cannot do anything for the rest of the round (no, the small chance of antags messing with engine is not sufficent reason to be in engineering for over 2 hrs). So basically all this change does is make security officer extremly boring depending on the department you were assigned to.

Wait so... a departmental officer will have exclusively the rights to do anything about someone who is making infractions exclusively in their department? Gods, why? Talk about overspecializing. This creates nightmares of jurisdiction.

[Brutishcrab51]

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

Wait so... a departmental officer will have exclusively the rights to do anything about someone who is making infractions exclusively in their department? Gods, why? Talk about overspecializing. This creates nightmares of jurisdiction.

My thoughts exactly. What does that mean? "Their jurisdiction only resides in that department"

Does that mean that, if I am the Science Security Officer, and I see someone doing something nasty and then they run into Medical, I can't pursue? Are you trying to institute jurisdictions? Are departments now the metaphorical county lines?

[ben10083]

3 hours ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

Does that mean that, if I am the Science Security Officer, and I see someone doing something nasty and then they run into Medical, I can't pursue? Are you trying to institute jurisdictions? Are departments now the metaphorical county lines?

Unless it changed, there will be one "general officer" with the old jurisdiction that deals with people who flee a department

[Crozarius]

16 hours ago, JMJ_99 said:

Then there is no point to this change if it adds nothing but a buff to security that is better spent on something better thought out.

This project will add an internally consistent and ICly realistic buff to security instead of just buffing weapons damage or giving them more powerful equipment to make them more robust. 

 

10 hours ago, ben10083 said:

Yet their jurisdiction only resides in that department,

I'm not sure where you got this idea. The current plan for this project doesn't make any changes to jurisdiction and doesn't suggest that DeptSec officers won't be able to do things outside of their department. I guess it's CCIA's perogative to make that call, but it would be CCIA's fault, not the fault of this project if such a ruling were to be made. It seems unfair to me to criticize the project based on CCIA stuff which is decided by CCIA, not the project...

 

4 hours ago, Nantei said:

Wait so... a departmental officer will have exclusively the rights to do anything about someone who is making infractions exclusively in their department?

See above.

 

3 hours ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

"Their jurisdiction only resides in that department"

See above.

 

5 hours ago, CampinKiller said:

asinine policy of an RD commanding a Sec officer in their department over the HoS doing so.

Non-Decurity Department Heads will command DeptSec officers only nominally; It'd be there to stop DeptSec from ignoring the Head in their department wholesale, although the HoS in practise has the final word in all manners of station security. However, I'm sure that CCIA will come up with an appropriate policy regarding this.

[geeves]

Their jurisdiction is to be decided by the CCIA (and probably staff as a whole). Whatever @ben10083 mentioned is him theorizing without asking literally anyone involved with the project.

Please fact-check before ass-pulling, especially if you're a member of staff.

[Peppermint]

11 hours ago, CampinKiller said:

At this point, I'd prefer to have sub-offices be added in, and no other changes. Let it be used if Sec wants to use it, but don't force it. That way we don't have to have some asinine policy of an RD commanding a Sec officer in their department over the HoS doing so.

This sounds like the most sensible idea, with departments also being able to request officers if they deem it's needed. Sec officers who are interested can sign up, as can those who want one nearby. Everyone wins with nobody getting forced into situations they don't enjoy.

[Crozarius]

42 minutes ago, Lemei said:

Everyone wins with nobody getting forced into situations they don't enjoy.

General officers still exist. You can queue up for DeptSec and pick your department preference, or you can go for General Officer.

[ben10083]

6 hours ago, geeves said:

Their jurisdiction is to be decided by the CCIA (and probably staff as a whole). Whatever @ben10083 mentioned is him theorizing without asking literally anyone involved with the project.

Please fact-check before ass-pulling, especially if you're a member of staff.

iirc, this was mentioned extensively in previous pages on this thread. The rules of the suggestion forum applies to the project forum as well, as such, please read the thread before commenting. Or in other words

Spoiler

Please fact-check before ass-pulling, especially if you're a member of staff.

However, since I am going to assume that since it is a different pr, that policy will need to be looked into again, I will look into having CCIA make atleast a rough draft of policy changes that will result with deptsec.

[geeves]

1 hour ago, ben10083 said:

iirc, this was mentioned extensively in previous pages on this thread.

Yes, the PR originally died because of bad management.

1 hour ago, ben10083 said:

The rules of the suggestion forum applies to the project forum as well, as such, please read the thread before commenting.

Very funny.

1 hour ago, ben10083 said:

However, since I am going to assume that since it is a different pr, that policy will need to be looked into again, I will look into having CCIA make atleast a rough draft of policy changes that will result with deptsec.

I will handle it.

[geeves]

Apologies for my recent lack of replies, I'm right around the start of my finals post-graduation, so I'm quite busy as you can imagine. I've been reading all the feedback and will certainly keep them in mind for tweaks I deem necessary.

So far a few of you have suggested making it an opt-in deal, which does sound like a good idea. My thoughts is to have a testmerge it as-is for roughly a week or so (of course it'd be less if it's universally hated, we're not cruel :P). That'd allow us to get some good data on what we like and what we dislike.

The current state of the PR is that it's near completion, the only issue I still really have is that contractors that spawn in don't have the correct ID access, but everything else works pretty well. I might ask a mapper to shrink the brig as well, cuz it's pretty huuuuge. But, as I said, testmerge first before we do anything drastic. A big change such as this won't go through without testing it for a while first.

On 26/10/2019 at 17:51, SHODAN said:

@geeves I don't really understand the need for authority change? Why not have the head of staff communicate with the HoS if they want things done that are outside of a normal officer role.

I'm not sure if this was answered by myself yet, kinda forgot, so I'll say it here. Officers currently have access to: Common, Departmental Channel and Security in their radio headsets. This allows them to be in contact with both their departmental head and the head of security. What my ideal view on it would be for the officer to focus more on what the departmental head has to say on Green, and more on what the Head of Security has to say on Blue through to Delta. Of course this can lead to problems like "he said she said" and command people losing their shit, but I expect command whitelisted players to be respectful enough, as is their duty as part of the most important whitelisted role.

 

As for the other discussions taking place. It's getting pretty spicy, and I know this PR seems threatening. But I'd like if both the Pro-DepSec and the Anti-DepSec sides would simmer down a little. Tearing eachother apart for something I'm doing isn't something I'd like to see, and if someone's tearing into someone else, I'd rather them tear into me. As a closing statement, I do actually read all the feedback, and you guys have some pretty good ideas. We'll see what the future holds. (Maybe the NBT erases all of this anyway, making it meaningless. Woo-wee.)

[AmoryBlaine]

9 hours ago, Crozarius said:

General officers still exist. You can queue up for DeptSec and pick your department preference, or you can go for General Officer.

@geeves Can you elaborate on how this functions?

[geeves]

Yeah, absolutely!

This is a fuggen ugly version of my devbuild, I'm not sure how I'd fix it but I'll try before it gets released to the players:

 

As you can see, the officers are literally different jobs. One the screenshot I'm readied up for "High" on the general officer, and NEVER on the others. That means I will NEVER be a departmental officer. Using this, you can finetune precisely what you want to spawn as, and not be hamfisted into a department you hate. The faction system also works for this, exactly as described (though I still have that bug I'm fixing with the IDs).

[AmoryBlaine]

6 minutes ago, geeves said:

Yeah, absolutely!

This is a fuggen ugly version of my devbuild, I'm not sure how I'd fix it but I'll try before it gets released to the players:

 

As you can see, the officers are literally different jobs. One the screenshot I'm readied up for "High" on the general officer, and NEVER on the others. That means I will NEVER be a departmental officer. Using this, you can finetune precisely what you want to spawn as, and not be hamfisted into a department you hate. The faction system also works for this, exactly as described (though I still have that bug I'm fixing with the IDs).

Okay, and how many slots are there for each? Because right now you're triumphing a system that's already in place. "Wow, see? If you're set to High for Bartender, and Never to Surgeon- you'll only get Bartender!" That means nothing if there are 4 other people vying for the same slot. Then what do you do?

[geeves]

If ya have the slots you want selected and someone else gets 'em, it's exactly what happens to security slots now, ya get booted back to the lobby. (Depends on your settings)

[AmoryBlaine]

1 minute ago, geeves said:

If ya have the slots you want selected and someone else gets 'em, it's exactly what happens to security slots now, ya get booted back to the lobby. (Depends on your settings)

So your answer to people not wanting to be Dept Sec- which you claim is not hamfisted- is to have everyone fight over a single slot, or sit in the lobby.

[geeves]

Yes. Also, I claimed that you won't get hamfisted into something you don't like (which is true!), not that the project isn't hamfisted. I actually think the project is pretty good. If ya wanna use ammunition, use it correctly!

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, geeves said:

Yes. Also, I claimed that you won't get hamfisted into something you don't like (which is true!), not that the project isn't hamfisted. I actually think the project is pretty good. If ya wanna use ammunition, use it correctly!

What does you thinking the project is good have to do with what we're talking about currently? I've not referred to the project yet, and am talking about the mechanics. So either you don't know what I'm talking about, or you're purposely trying to go around it.

11 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Using this, you can finetune precisely what you want to spawn as, and not be hamfisted into a department you hate.

Until the option isn't available. Because you've limited the slots to one per Dept, and one 'General' Officer.

10 minutes ago, geeves said:

If ya have the slots you want selected and someone else gets 'em, it's exactly what happens to security slots now, ya get booted back to the lobby.

So we're going from four equally opportune Officers, to four hamfisted Officers being forced to choose a department, and a fifth General Officer?

[MattAtlas]

1 minute ago, AmoryBlaine said:

So we're going from four equally opportune Officers, to four hamfisted Officers being forced to choose a department, and a fifth General Officer?

It's pretty funny how hard a person can twist "I didn't get this role, so I'll go for this one" into something negative - in addition to how a person can also completely omit any chance of things possibly changing.

At this point I think the discussion has ran its course. The pro- side won't change anyone's mind and the anti- side won't either. Only a testmerge will actually yield results.

[geeves]

2 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

What does you thinking the project is good have to do with what we're talking about currently?

Literally nothing.

3 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

I've not referred to the project yet

Departmental Security is the project.

3 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

So either you don't know what I'm talking about, or you're purposely trying to go around it.

I am well aware what you're talking about. You don't like it, and that's fine.

3 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Until the option isn't available. Because you've limited the slots to one per Dept, and one 'General' Officer.

Yes, that is what Departmental Security is. Currently the "Security Department" is: The Head of Security, The Warden, The Detective, The Forensic Technician, The two Cadets, The General Officer.

5 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

So we're going from four equally opportune Officers, to four hamfisted Officers being forced to choose a department, and a fifth General Officer?

Just because you dislike it, doesn't mean everyone dislikes it. Yes, four departmental officers: Medical, Cargo, Engineering, Research. One General Officer: Security.

[AmoryBlaine]

1 minute ago, MattAtlas said:

It's pretty funny how hard a person can twist "I didn't get this role, so I'll go for this one" into something negative - in addition to how a person can also completely omit any chance of things possibly changing.

At this point I think the discussion has ran its course. The pro- side won't change anyone's mind and the anti- side won't either. Only a testmerge will actually yield results.

If the point of this was to increase Departmental relations why would you encourage Officers to jump between Departments? That enforces the current 'seperate' feel that Security has. Or was there a difference between me talking to Medical one round, and going to Cargo the next-- and me being Department Officer for Cargo one round, and Department Officer for Medical the next. Because if there isn't a difference, when this 'new' system encourages you to leave your posting, What is the point of this new system?

[MattAtlas]

Just now, AmoryBlaine said:

If the point of this was to increase Departmental relations why would you encourage Officers to jump between Departments? That enforces the current 'seperate' feel that Security has. Or was there a difference between me talking to Medical one round, and going to Cargo the next-- and me being Department Officer for Cargo one round, and Department Officer for Medical the next. Because if there isn't a difference, when this 'new' system encourages you to leave your posting, What is the point of this new system?

How is talking to different people a bad thing, again? I thought you guys "patrolled" down halls to talk to different people... or am I wrong?

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, MattAtlas said:

How is talking to different people a bad thing, again?

How is that anywhere close to what I said? Please, tell me how you took that from what I said.

[geeves]

1 minute ago, AmoryBlaine said:

If the point of this was to increase Departmental relations why would you encourage Officers to jump between Departments?

Depends on the slots people roll for. The people who want to roll for that department will naturally make friends with that department. Getting reassigned to different stations makes sense from an IC perspective.

2 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

That enforces the current 'seperate' feel that Security has.

I don't think so, but I'll take neither your word or mine until we've tried it out.

2 minutes ago, AmoryBlaine said:

Or was there a difference between me talking to Medical one round, and going to Cargo the next-- and me being Department Officer for Cargo one round, and Department Officer for Medical the next. Because if there isn't a difference, when this 'new' system encourages you to leave your posting, What is the point of this new system?

Does it encourage you to leave your posting?